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  • Keizer: Windows 7 won’t shrink fast enough

    Posted on November 2nd, 2017 at 12:01 woody Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    Depending on whose numbers you trust, Win7 runs on more than half of all Windows machines, while Win10 is only on 33%.

    Detailed report from Gregg Keizer at Computerworld.

    Computerworld calculated that, with the 12-month trend in Net Applications’ data, Windows 10 should pass the 33.3% line during December.

    There’s a whole lotta staying power.

    If that helped, take a second to support AskWoody on Patreon

    Home Forums Keizer: Windows 7 won’t shrink fast enough

    This topic contains 63 replies, has 27 voices, and was last updated by  Sessh 11 months, 1 week ago.

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    • #143368 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      Depending on whose numbers you trust, Win7 runs on more than half of all Windows machines, while Win10 is only on 33%. Detailed report from Gregg Keiz
      [See the full post at: Keizer: Windows 7 won’t shrink fast enough]

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143371 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      There still are no real tangible benefits to upgrading, and most people would argue (rightly so) that you have more control over the OS if you stay with 7. MS has a lot of fundamental changes to make if they actually want 10 to take over, and I don’t think they’ll concede those changes because they obviously don’t care.

      XP had a lot of staying power, but ultimately, everyone had to upgrade when >4GB RAM became the norm and XP64 was not widely adopted because it had a lot of issues. I think 7 will have a slower decline as time goes on because it’s such a solid OS, and it does its job of providing a GUI to run applications while otherwise staying out of the way and not doing anything the user doesn’t acknowledge or want.

    • #143382 Reply

      Sparky
      AskWoody Lounger

      That poses a question;

      After looking at those numbers, is it still feasible to buy a machine with W7 on it or take the dive and go with W10? That is if they are still making machines with W7.

      HP W7 Home Premium, SP1, 64-bit, AMD Phenom II, Group A

      • #143412 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        They are still selling new machines with Windows 7 installed. There are over two years of Windows 7 support left from Microsoft. If you want Windows 7, then buy a Windows 7 machine.

        Check the Dell website — look at the business computers. They are the ones which you can buy with Windows 7.

        As January 2020 approaches, you can consider what you will do:
        * Stay with Windows 7, without security patches.
        * Upgrade to Windows 8.1 with Classic Shell, and get three more years of security patches.
        * Upgrade to Windows 10.
        * Abandon Microsoft and go with Linux.

        Your computer will be new enough to allow you to choose any of these options.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        11 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143387 Reply

      PKCano
      AskWoody MVP

      In the past, when a new version of Windows came out, you could just update your current PC with the latest and go on until the hardware died. Even XP machines had the possibility of running Win7 (at least minimally and slowly).

      Not so anymore. Microsoft is blocking the newer processors from running Win7/8.1 (unless you jump through hoops, and even that may end). So as computers die, there is a choice, for most people. Move ahead to Win10 or move laterally to MacOS or Linux or ChromeOS.

      The way I see it, the limit is not 2020, because people will continue to run Win7 after the EOL just like they did with XP. The limiting factor is the hardware life. When the older PCs die, you will have to make the choice.

      By the time that happens (or even by 2020), I see Windows looking vastly different than it does now. WaaS is moving toward the cloud and the OS toward a rented thin client. Pay for the Operating System, the security protection. the “Apps” by the month/year. Your PC is a dumb terminal with Internet access (like a Chromebook) and everything is on Microsoft servers. No longer any Administrative control on your part – MS will do that for you.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #143392 Reply

        RamRod
        AskWoody Lounger

        I’d like to say thanks, but I feel as if a kindly old doctor just informed me I have cancer and have less than 3 years to live. Party On!!!

        It’s the Linux life for me.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #143404 Reply

        MikeFromMarkham
        AskWoody Lounger

        Not only is Microsoft blocking installation of Windows 7/8.1 on newer processors, they continue to push Windows 10 onto much older hardware and processors that may have very little life left in them.  For example: about 2 months ago, I decided I wanted to get a cheap, basic, don’t-care-if/when-it-dies computer to test a bunch of stuff. I settled on a refurbished Dell netbook with a dual-core N455 Atom processor and 2GB of RAM from Newegg for 85 bucks Canadian including taxes and shipping. I thought it was shipping without an OS of any type but to my amusement/horror, it arrived with Windows 10 v1609, then immediately updated to v1703, becoming noticeably slower in the process. I’ve since let it update to v1709 which runs even slower than the previous version. In contrast, all 3 of the Linux distros I have installed on this computer (I’m quad-booting) run significantly faster and smoother than any Windows 10 version I’ve had so far. Needless to say, 98% of my time with this machine is spent using Linux. When Microsoft finally pulls the plug on support for this processor, I will happily delete the Windows partitions and continue with Linux alone. In the meantime, one can hope that they will cease being so desperate to build the number of Windows 10 installations that they reconsider forcing it onto 6+ year old, limited life equipment like mine.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #143433 Reply

        FakeNinja
        AskWoody Lounger

        But why would it matter if Microsoft blocked updates on newer processors if there are no new updates after 2020 anyway?

        • #143434 Reply

          PKCano
          AskWoody MVP

          It’s blocking updates on newer processors (SkyLake and KabyLake) running Win7/8,1 NOW. Has been since early this year.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #143384 Reply

      anonymous

      Is there any reason to hope that by Win7 end that legal or other government actions will force MS to provide an “Enterprise” version of Win10 to the consumer channel that allows the OS system control (No or very limited Telemetry and update controls) that we have now with Win7?

      By Win7 end I will like to update to the latest hardware which will probably still require Win10 conversion if nothing else changes.

      • #143402 Reply

        radosuaf
        AskWoody Lounger

        Buy now, check if 8.1 drivers are present, and you’re good to go until 2023.

        MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile 1709 (Lumia 640 LTE)
        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143411 Reply

      anonymous

      Bear in mind what the comparisons would have been if there had been no free Win 10 upgrade, ie Win 7/8.1 market share would have been much higher today.
      … With the free upgrade, Win 10 adoption rate still lags behind that of Win XP and Win 7. Imagine what would have been the Win 10 adoption rate and market share if there had been no free upgrade.

      = Windows 10 FAIL !
      .

      P S – Those with Win 7/8.1 Pro OEM licenses saved about US$50 by taking the free Win 10 upgrade. Those with Win 7/8.1 Pro Retail licenses saved a whopping US$199 by taking the free Win 10 upgrade. Hence, many jumped onto the free upgrade and got “trapped”. Some have regretted it and wished they had remained on Win 7/8.1 Pro.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #143449 Reply

        radosuaf
        AskWoody Lounger

        Not only free, but also often forced.

        MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile 1709 (Lumia 640 LTE)
    • #143414 Reply

      anonymous

      Despite what I might wish, or what the apple or the linux crowd might claim, it is nearly impossible to move away from the Windows infrastructure if a person or business has standardized around the Office applications, custom Windows applications, and/or even standardized Windows applications that are not cross platform compatible.

      There are simply NO alternatives to Office if one needs more than file format compatibility; like when macros are used in Excel or Word documents. And good luck porting any substantial piece of custom software to another platform within any reasonable cost framework.

      I think this lock-in, combined with the amount of market share Microsoft has, qualifies them as a monopoly. It would be nice to see them either heavily regulated or broken up because that might be the only way we avoid this impending forced Windows 10 fiasco come 2020. The product is plainly garbage if the amount and regularity of tech support calls I respond to involving Windows 10 is any indication. And I get to hear the same thing every time, “how are regular humans supposed to know how to fix or avoid these issues?” Well, simple actually. Don’t use Windows 10.

      My Windows 7 users don’t seem to have many issues unless automatic update gets turned on. Then, same deal.

      Come 2020, I hope Win 7 has actually increased in market use and Microsoft is forced to deal with the fact that Win 10 (every version) has been a serious wrong direction, and they make something that users actually want.

      Reality, however, will be different. With Office 365 seriously filling the coffers as Microsoft reaps the rewards of robbing their customer base every month in perpetuity, the push will be on to cement “Windows as a service” in place with a similar “rape and plunder forever” model.

      Of course larger companies have gone out of business in the past making far smaller mistakes, but Microsoft seems to be elevating that aspect to an art form and still they persist.

      Rats!

      • #143781 Reply

        johnf
        AskWoody Lounger

        Your “Windows Only” applications may work perfectly well under Linux/MAC/Android using Codeweavers.

        The nice thing about this company is that they will offer a free evaluation for you to test; they even offer to port your windows software to Linux/MAC/Android for a fee.

        There’s even lists of software that works under Codeweavers , which include Office 2016 and Quicken.

        It’s not perfect, and they discuss that, but it may be worth investigating, when faced with the choice of having an OS that may suddenly have issues with your custom apps after a 6 month update.

    • #143428 Reply

      Charlie
      AskWoody Lounger

      As a non-business personal computer user, I still have a 1998 computer with Win 95B, a 2002 custom built gaming computer with Win 98/SE, a 2003 IBM T40 Thinkpad with Win XP Pro, and finally, my “newest” 2012 computer with Win 7 HP x64.  All of the older computers still work fine and I still use them for playing old games and saving info. I wouldn’t put on a unit that’s exposed to the Internet.

      Yes I’ve had to replace a hard drive or two, and I actually prefer using Lotus Smartsuite 97 for my personal budget, Christmas list, car maintenance, etc.  Not much “dies” around here.  Oh, I forgot to mention my 1993 IBM PS/1, 486, with Win 3.1 / DOS 6.22 (the first computer I actually bought).  Even though it’s a relic, it still runs fine.

      Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Group B

      7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #143577 Reply

        BobbyB
        AskWoody Lounger

        @charlie yeah on the Home front here Win7Prox86 positively saved my 2001 Xp machine from the junk heap, doubtful if cannabilising it for parts would be of any use. It ran XP until 2015 then on its last “road trip” came back with a damaged sceen, $200+ for a new one, spare Flat screen sat in the basement “priceless” lol it didnt like Vista, nor did I, didnt have a Key any ways, Win8.0 was way over the top for it, didnt have a Key any ways again So Win8.1 wasnt even worth a try. Had an old copy given to me years ago of Win7 popped that in “Bingo!” works a treat, even better than XP ever did and still going strong with an external monitor, Orig HDD and slightly grubby but lovely to type keys. (I like the loose keys of yester-year)
        Replaced with a Win8.1 HP in 2015 one road trip and fairly intense use HDD got quite a few bad sectors. (Not sure if its detritus floating around in the HDD case or genuine surface damage i.e. scratch or even OS induced bad sectors apparently its a real scenario 🙁 ) Well am I claiming Win7 saved the day and machine? probably not but for sure it would have been a Linux varient, and after Win7 EOL maybe then, who knows? 😉

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143422 Reply

      anonymous

      The wise thing for Microsoft to do: Give Windows 10 customers the ability to downgrade to Windows 7 at no cost and to extend support for the OS, maybe even bringing it back to mainstream support instead of driving a good thing to the grave.

      Stop forcing your loyal customers who want to stay with you into a pit with a shotgun behind their backs.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143427 Reply

      anonymous

      It’s a remarkable situation.

      After spending 2 years following this forum closely, then 1 year living with my Group W(c) Windows 7 laptop paying as little attention to Microsoft and the question of operating systems as I possibly could,
      I have returned to the topic this week because I probably need to get a new computer soon and my 2007-era software does need to be updated to something more modern.

      I was even consigned to accepting the horror of Win 10, figuring that they MUST have improved things and made it a little less awful BY NOW — but no, it’s still a mess.

      It’s even considered to have big problems by some who work in the field and have always been Microsoft/Windows aficianados up to now. They have to deploy their high-level skills/abilities just to tame it and keep up with it, and complain about the constant version changes and heavy-handed settings readjustments.

      No average person has hours a week to spend in keeping up with this stuff and fighting continuous battles to have a machine that they can use properly and don’t fear/hate.

      The mess with the Windows operating systems, update problems, hardware incompatibilities, version proliferation, forced changes, and sucking up of private information is destabilizing and costly to individuals, companies, and economies around the world, in time, money, stress, and lost privacy.

      It’s all been mused about before, the danger of relying on a quasi-monopolistic product/system that becomes an almost indispensible “utility” in society for all levels from individual schoolchildren to national governments, for a generation and a half, yet remains under the control/whims of one capitalistic, private company, with the society/government/populace/business world having no robust alternate/fall-back system in place.

      One might hope that financial and reputational pressures will force the top decision-makers to change their tack a little bit and make a few products/systems that people will like, trust, enjoy, and invest in again. But they have dug in over the past year and continued down their madcap path.

      People and organizations are hanging in there, clinging to Windows 7 (or XP), because otherwise changing to different systems/hardware/knowledge sets is incredibly costly and time-consuming (especially when unexpected and unplanned for) — but if MS keeps pushing it, seizing more and more control and ramping up the discomfort and inconveniences to force people to leave Win 7, to stop using otherwise-good hardware and programs, and to give up basic privacy, they may find that they lose a lot of customers forever.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #143469 Reply

        anonymous

        The above post was by P.T.
        I forgot to put it at the bottom.

        —-
        Maybe a candidate should run for the next election under a “Make Windows Great Again” mantra.

        Or, put an “(our)” in there so the abbreviation can be easily pronounced – MoWGA.

        2020 would be good timing — the Jan to Nov months might witness some customer discontent.

        Could put “MoWGA” on an undulating orange-ish flag/square, shaped like the red/green/blue/yellow squares in the MS logo.

        Wouldn’t go so far as to have as VP candidate Clippy.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #143601 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          Maybe a candidate should run for the next election under a “Make Windows Great Again” mantra.

          For me, it’s “MLGA” – Make Linux Great Again!

          Or maybe “MCGA” – Make Computing Great Again!

          I’m running on the Mint ticket. My competitor is running on the Ubuntu ticket. Funny, though, we never slander each other; so far, it is a very civil campaign.

          The incumbent, running on the Windows ticket, is promising to take care of all our needs, but in reality he is establishing a computing dictatorship. He is planning on eliminating most of our freedoms in January of 2020, and the rest of them in January of 2023.

          Ubuntu and I are promising to deliver just about all of the benefits that Windows is promising, but without the dictatorship.

          Voting is going on right now. Who will you vote for?

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
          4 users thanked author for this post.
          • #143646 Reply

            Charlie
            AskWoody Lounger

            I’ve gotten into learning Linux Mint Cinnamon which I got comfortable with.  It’s a pretty good version to jump into from Win 7 and has many good features.  I haven’t tried Ubuntu so I can’t vote against it as I don’t know much about it other than what I’ve heard.

            Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Group B

            2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143441 Reply

      Ascaris

      “Fast enough?”
      Fast enough for what, pray tell?

      “But if the veteran operating system were a person, it would be that party guest who stayed well past welcome, lingering long after everyone else has left, after the hosts have, in fact, gone to bed. And there Windows 7 would sit, talking without a listener, making itself at home, feet up on the coffee table.”

      If you’re Microsoft, maybe.  Not if you’re one of the intended victims of this Windows 10 monstrosity Microsoft is  trying to inflict upon them.   If anyone is the unwanted guest, it’s Windows 10, pounding incessantly on the front door even though I’ve told it to go away… so it breaks down the door and makes itself at home anyway.  I don’t want Windows 7 to go away… I want Windows 10 to go away, at least in its current form or anything even somewhat resembling its current form.  When I see Windows 10 floundering month after month, that gives me hope… just a little, and not enough to make me change my plans to migrate to Linux in 2023.  Nothing but the failure of Windows 10 has any chance of waking Microsoft up and making a usable Windows.  Win 7 dying on cue won’t accomplish that, and shame on you, Keizer, for wishing for it and carrying Microsoft’s water as they abuse their own customers.

      I wish they hadn’t gotten rid of comments over there

      10 users thanked author for this post.
      • #143442 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        Growl.. that was my post again.  Wish you had to do something to specifically let it know you are posting as anonymous!

        Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.1 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

        • #143447 Reply

          PKCano
          AskWoody MVP

          Is that better?

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #143495 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody MVP

            Thank you!  Indeed it is.

            And I did it again… please feel free to delete the anonymous thank you.  I’ve been in the habit of making sure I am logged in before hitting the submit button, but for some reason, I’ve had a regression.

            Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.1 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

            • #143503 Reply

              PKCano
              AskWoody MVP

              It’s not age-related, is it? ;:-) 🙂

              • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  PKCano.
            • #143883 Reply

              Ascaris
              AskWoody MVP

              It’s not age-related, is it? ;:-) 🙂

              Heh… it just might be.  I still have trouble believing I am as old as I am!  I thought when you hit your forties, you felt like you were in your forties!  When I was young, people that old seemed so different, so… old, I was sure that there was some big fundamental difference between someone my age and someone their age.  Now, I come to realize… no, not really.  It’s a generation gap more than an age gap, I think, added to the benefit of a few more years of experience.  I still don’t feel any different, though, like I should still be 20.

              Edit: Okay, that is hilarious what it’s doing with that smiley!

              Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.1 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

              • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  Ascaris.
              • This reply was modified 11 months, 2 weeks ago by  PKCano.
              1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #143494 Reply

            Ascaris

            Thank you! Indeed it is.

        • #143456 Reply

          Cybertooth
          AskWoody Lounger

          I’ve been bitten by that too. The main problem is that we get signed out of here for mysterious reasons without our knowing it, and then only come to realize we’ve posted as “anonymous” when it’s too late.

          Now that the big website troubles seem to be past us (knock on wood), maybe the AskWoody folks can look into what causes users to get suddenly logged off without having done anything different.

          • #143475 Reply

            anonymous

            “knock on wood”

            just knock on the right sidebar of the screen! 🙂


            P.T.

            2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #143541 Reply

            Kirsty
            AskWoody MVP

            There are still a few residual issues with the site; work is ongoing, as I understand it 😉

            One tip before posting – if it says Your Information in a box above the text input box, you aren’t logged in. If you don’t see that, you should be logged in.

            Logged Out (using Text option):

            LoggedOut

            Logged In (ditto):

            LoggedIn

            • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  Kirsty.
            • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  Kirsty.
            Attachments:
            You must be logged in to view attached files.
            2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #143637 Reply

            SueW
            AskWoody Lounger

            Another way to know if you’re logged in or not: look for the “THANKS” link under each comment.  If it’s there, you’re logged in; if not, you’re not.

            Win 7 SP1 Home Premium 64-bit; Office 2010; Group B; Former 'Tech Weenie'

      • #143489 Reply

        alpha128
        AskWoody Lounger

        “If anyone is the unwanted guest, it’s Windows 10, pounding incessantly on the front door even though I’ve told it to go away… so it breaks down the door and makes itself at home anyway. I don’t want Windows 7 to go away… I want Windows 10 to go away, at least in its current form or anything even somewhat resembling its current form. When I see Windows 10 floundering month after month, that gives me hope… just a little, and not enough to make me change my plans to migrate to Linux in 2023. Nothing but the failure of Windows 10 has any chance of waking Microsoft up and making a usable Windows. Win 7 dying on cue won’t accomplish that, and shame on you, Keizer, for wishing for it and carrying Microsoft’s water as they abuse their own customers.” – Ascaris

        Hear, hear!

        Let’s not forget Microsoft’s GWX campaign, which turned a Fortune 100 company into the largest distributor of malware on the planet. I put my shortcut for GWX Control Panel into the program folder I use for all my security programs.

        The irony is that customers love Windows 7. Any other company would say let’s make and sell more Window 7! Not Microsoft however, who acted like this:

        Windows 10 nagware

        • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  alpha128.
        • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  alpha128.
        6 users thanked author for this post.
        • #143498 Reply

          Ascaris
          AskWoody MVP

          http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-ww/

          I don’t know why it’s squishing it horizontally.  I unchecked “constrain,” but it didn’t change anything.

          Sandra and Woo web comic

          It’s still hosted on their server, so the inline should be okay, I think.

          Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.1 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

          • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  Ascaris.
          • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  Ascaris.
          6 users thanked author for this post.
        • #143849 Reply

          Jan K.
          AskWoody Lounger

          The way he’s pointing his gun, he’ll miss me the same way Microsoft has missed me with Windows 10… not a hit.

          Although I did get hurt by the GWX bullet. Took some time to recover and still suffer from the psychological aftermath of the experience…

          • #144199 Reply

            alpha128
            AskWoody Lounger

            “The way he’s pointing his gun, he’ll miss me the same way Microsoft has missed me with Windows 10… not a hit.

            Although I did get hurt by the GWX bullet. Took some time to recover and still suffer from the psychological aftermath of the experience…” – Jan K.

            I did install GWX on my system – back when it was called “additional capabilities for Windows Update notifications.” However the following day I read this article explaining what it really was, and immediately uninstalled GWX. Thankfully that was long before Microsoft went all Buffalo Bill on its users:

            Windows 10 of the Lambs

    • #143448 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      It’s blocking updates on newer processors (SkyLake and KabyLake) running Win7/8,1 NOW. Has been since early this year.

      Not entirely true – I have a (purposely selected) Skylake setup with all installed monthly rollups on Win 8.1 and there is still no block.

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile 1709 (Lumia 640 LTE)
      • #143453 Reply

        PKCano
        AskWoody MVP

        But mostly true for the average User (who doesn’t build his own machine and then invent the loopsholes you can jump through like you do!)

        • #143457 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          Yup, I built my own system, but I’m quite certain Skylakes are NOT AT ALL blocked on Win 8.1 at least. Kaby Lake is blocked on both for sure, not certain how it looks with Skylake and Win 7.

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile 1709 (Lumia 640 LTE)
        • #143474 Reply

          anonymous

          A simplistic question —
          is there one trustworthy resource which shows the various names and other identifiers of the hardware
          at the heart of complete systems (consumer-ready desktops/laptops – nothing that you have to build yourself) which might reasonably still be found for sale to ordinary retail consumers in the next few months
          that will accept Win 7 updates until Jan 2020 and that will accept Win 8.1 updates until 2023?

          I probably need to buy a new computer with Win 7 or Win 8.1 (either that comes with it or that is installed it onto it) but I don’t know what is safe to buy since there are several kinds of hardware incompatibilities and shortened hosting (whatever the word is for that) periods for the older OS’s.


          P.T.

          • #143563 Reply

            Cybertooth
            AskWoody Lounger

            I’m not aware of any single place (website) that would have the comprehensive info you’re seeking. Your best bet might be to check out the sites of individual PC manufacturers, and particularly the “business computers” pages; last month, for example, you could still buy Windows 7 systems (downgrade rights from Windows 10) from HP; I know because I was shopping there then. I was even able to buy a system with FreeDOS installed on it instead of Windows.

          • #143571 Reply

            anonymous

            @ PT

            For guidance about Intel processors, please refer to this link …
            https://www.intel.com/buy/us/en/catalog/components/boxedprocessors

            7th-gen Kabylake = i7-7xxx, eg i7-7700
            6th-gen Skylake = i7-6xxx
            4th-gen = i7-4xxx

            If you wanna run Win 7/8.1, avoid Intel Skylake and Kabylake processors.

            Dell still sells high-end new Business PCs preinstalled with Win 7 Pro and embedded Product Keys that are always auto-activated.

            New HP Win 10 Pro Business computers that automatically come with downgrade rights to Win 7/8.1 Pro require the buyers to already have transferable Win 7/8.1 Retail Product Keys or Win 7/8.1 Ent Volume License Keys in order to exercise the downgrade rights.
            … Normally, it is businesses with Win 7/8.1 Ent Volume License Keys who buy these new OEM Win 10 Pro Business computers which they could easily downgrade to Win 7/8.1 Pro and convert to Win 7/8.1 Ent with their VL Keys. Lesser in number are DIY System Builders who have transferable Win 7/8.1 Retail License Product Keys. This downgrade right cannot be activated with non-transferable Win 7/8.1 OEM license PK.

            Tech-geeks can choose to buy a used Win 7/8.1 Retail license Product Key or unused System Builder OEM license PK online, then buy a cheaper new OEM Win 10 Home computer or no-OS computer, install Win 7/8.1 by over-writing Win 10 Home and activating it with the Win 7/8.1 PK.

            2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143468 Reply

      anonymous

      400 million devices using Windows 10 means that 1,770,694,997.79 machines are not.

      Who counts the usage of the very unique W10 in China? I think most of the ‘consumers’ are probably on Android – thanks Cortana for that info.

    • #143484 Reply

      wdburt1
      AskWoody Lounger

      I used to see this in the railroad industry trade press.  Writers tended to promote whatever the suppliers were advertising.  During my career the major trade press magazines became a bit more circumspect about this, aware of the contempt that many of their subscribers (all systematically vetted to ensure that they were actually in the industry and thus potentially decisionmakers important to advertisers) felt for such a blatant lack of critical or pro-customer thinking.  But the tendency to parrot what major suppliers wanted remained.

      When Keizer says that the advance of Windows 10 adoption is “promising” he reveals whose side he is on.  He attempts to construct a rational case for adoption of Win10 now, based on the feeble argument that if companies and individual users wait until 2020 they will blow the IT budget on a crash conversion.  Apparently he thinks that none of his readers can plan or think critically about what they want.  He acts in this case as a typical trade press flack.

       

       

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #143607 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        He attempts to construct a rational case for adoption of Win10 now, based on the feeble argument that if companies and individual users wait until 2020 they will blow the IT budget on a crash conversion.

        I call feline interference on my previous attempt to write this post!

        Is there any reason to think that migrating to Windows 10 is going to cost any more in 2020 than it does today?  Have I missed some news about Congress or the EU or some other governmental body imposing a tax on upgrading operating systems?  (Sarcasm in this post directed in the general direction of Keizer or Redmond, as the case may be.)

        By upgrading to 10 now, you guarantee yourself about six more rollouts of new Windows 10 versions, all tested by consumers (who are not running a lot of the enterprise applications and configurations that a corporation will, thus leaving them largely untested).  That is going to be a significant extra cost.  Windows 7 is a known quantity with a stable code base, and while the bugfixes (including security fixes) it gets are as untested as any other Windows code these days, it’s still a lot more stable than Windows 10, with its huge “feature” updates twice a year in addition to the bugfixes.

        It’s almost funny to hear (well, read) someone defending Microsoft and Windows 10 with the “cost” argument.  Windows 10 is almost singularly designed to cost businesses a fortune in IT costs with the lack of testing and the ridiculously fast update cycle.  I’m sure the corporate world will think it’s worth it to get gaming mode and multiplayer anti-cheat code and the new emoji stuff, but all of that wonderful “enterprise-ready” code comes at a cost.  If Microsoft was concerned at all about the corporate IT costs, they would not have WaaS, nor would they be releasing largely untested code into the wild so often.

        Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.1 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

        • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  Ascaris.
        6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143524 Reply

      Carl D
      AskWoody Lounger

      I think I’ve mentioned this once or twice before but I’ve been using Windows 7 Professional 64 bit on Kaby Lake with a Gigabyte B250M-D3H motherboard for the past couple of months and I also have it fully up to date with Windows updates – well, minus the telemetry updates and the deliberate 7th generation processor blocking update from April.

      And, the Windows 7 motherboard drivers work perfectly with Kaby Lake despite the instructions saying that they were only supposed to be for 6th and not 7th generation processors. I’m guessing Gigabyte were worried (and probably rightly so) that they were going to lose a lot of sales if the drivers only worked for Windows 7 with 6th generation.

      The other possibility is that the W7 motherboard drivers were only fully tested for 6th generation but fortunately (for me at least) they work properly with Kaby Lake as well.

    • #143534 Reply

      lurks about
      AskWoody Lounger

      With the news that W10 is slowly increasing has MS made an sort of ‘official’ announcement of the actual number of W10 boxes currently active? After all the hoopla of how it was going be installed on a 1 billion devices by now I find it interesting how quiet they have become about official numbers. Normal monthly sales should have made a significant increase by now.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143598 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Lounger

      Depending on whose numbers you trust, Win7 runs on more than half of all Windows machines, while Win10 is only on 33%.

      Computerworld calculated that, with the 12-month trend in Net Applications’ data, Windows 10 should pass the 33.3% line during December

      Depending on whose numbers you trust, Windows 10 (41%) will outnumber Windows 7 (43%) later this month:

      StatCounter: Windows 10 narrowing the gap on Windows 7, will overtake it this month

      • #143648 Reply

        Charlie
        AskWoody Lounger

        I would really like to see a “User Happiness” percentage for Win 10.  I venture to say that it would be very much lower and a better indicator of how Win 10 is really doing.

        Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Group B

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #143721 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Depending on whose numbers you trust, Windows 10 (41%) will outnumber Windows 7 (43%) later this month

        I’m impressed that in only 2-1/2 years a new OS being given away for free has almost overtaken an 8 year old system that cost hundreds of dollars and is out of mainstream support!

        Keep up the good work, Microsoft!

        😉

        -Noel

        5 users thanked author for this post.
        • #143787 Reply

          Charlie
          AskWoody Lounger

          But it’s not truly free.  You’re paying for it in many ways –

          You become an unpaid Beta Tester for MS’s lack of quality control.

          You don’t have control over updates that get worse and worse as time goes on.

          You lose privacy and have to put up with ads (outrageous for an “operating system”).

          Your hair turns grey, or you pull it out trying to keep up with it all, etc., etc., etc.

          Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Group B

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #145363 Reply

          Sessh
          AskWoody Lounger

          Except StatCounter isn’t a reliable measure of this since it counts the same computer multiple times a day whereas NetMarketShare counts computers only once per day.

          StatCounter only shows which OS a handful of heavy internet users are using which immediately skews the results and makes them worthless for determining usage percentages for the OS since one computer could be counted dozens of times in one day. That doesn’t mean dozens of people are using Windows 10. The results are skewed to favor heavy internet users, but I don’t blame W10 fanatics from wanting to use any stat that shows W10 is better or more popular than it actually is since there aren’t any legitimate stats to show those things.

    • #143651 Reply

      anonymous

      Apple have just released their latest Q4 2017 financial results.

      Mac sales for Q4 2017 have increased 10% Year-on-Year, ie from Q4 2016. That’s an extra 500,000 Macs sold in one quarter or 3 months.
      … In comparison, Mac sales for Q3 2017 only increased 1% Y-o-Y = an extra 43,000 Macs sold.

      Seems, quite a lot of Windows users have recently jumped ship to MacOS. Wonder why ? = because of Win 10 ?

      Wonder how many Windows users have similarly jumped ship to Linux and Chrome OS ?

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #143657 Reply

      anonymous

      I still think Microsoft messed up with having forced updates with restarts on Windows 10. If not for that, I think many, many more people would have taken the free upgrade. And, of course, they should have focused a lot more on not breaking things, and making sure they had generic drivers that would allow upgrades.

      Microsoft was just not ready for this. They needed to spend time making updates just work, and removing as much of the requirement to restart as possible. Once updates is seemless, then force updates.

      Instead, the forced updates are seen as a reason not to upgrade to Windows 10, even when it is offered for free. All of the update problems are why people just don’t want to deal with it. There’s not really much other reason not to use Windows 10, but that one reason is a doozy, since Microsoft updates have only gotten worse.

      This, like many Microsoft decisions, has all the signs of different parts of the company not actually working together. The Win10 team wants to keep churning out breaking updates to make things the best, and doesn’t care about updates. The marketing people want to get Windows 10 on every system for easier support. But they are essentially working at cross purposes.

    • #143661 Reply

      anonymous

      @#143651 Macs also have the update system down pat. People actually WANT to upgrade to the latest version, and many updates do not require a restart. I’m pretty sure the Win10 free upgrade was copying Apple, but without the update infrastructure in place to handle it.

      The ability of MacOS and Linux to replace files in place is awesome for avoiding unnecessary restarts. I still do not know why Microsoft has not implemented this. Instead, if a file is in use, it is marked to be replaced after a restart.

      Not to mention the large number of services that could easily just be restarted after the upgrade.

    • #143691 Reply

      anonymous

      Statscounter shows the following October 2017 usage for China …

      W7 = 55.99%, W10 = 20.42%, XP = 18.5%

      Compared to other OS’s, Windows (all versions combined) has approx. 32.86% market share in China.

      Android is King (or Emporer, I guess).

      It should be noted that China has had their unique version of W10 since May 23, 2017.

    • #143720 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      I was just looking over Dell’s current line of cutting-edge Precision 7920 Workstations, based on the new Xeon scalable processors (Skylake generation), can sport 1.5 TB of RAM, boot from arrays of M.2 drives… Truly heroic hardware that you can configure to the tune of $60,000+ by picking the top options…

      You can also still buy them with a Windows 7 “downgrade” for only $23 extra.

      -Noel

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #143724 Reply

        anonymous

        Shouldn’t it be EXTREMELY obvious to Microsoft that something in their business model is inexorably broken when a hardware vendor is selling a Windows 7 downgrade with/for the highest of their high end products for less than $30? As another poster pointed out in this thread, its very interesting that Microsoft has stopped talking about the number of systems running Windows 10. I wonder how much of that stems from the people and companies buying these downgrades?

        4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143761 Reply

      Ascaris
      AskWoody MVP

      Despite what I might wish, or what the apple or the linux crowd might claim, it is nearly impossible to move away from the Windows infrastructure if a person or business has standardized around the Office applications,

      With Office 365 seriously filling the coffers as Microsoft reaps the rewards of robbing their customer base every month in perpetuity,

      Well, therein may lie the salvation.  If Office 365 ends up being the dominant form of MS Office, people won’t be tied to Windows to use it. Their cloud aspirations mean giving up their desktop lock-in, as the web/cloud is inherently and by design platform-agnostic, and with MS “embracing” other operating systems, it’s quite obvious that this is the choice they have made.

      If MS is intent on making Windows into another thin-client web frontend like ChromeOS, they also put themselves in direct competition with ChromeOS itself (which is based around the most popular browser in existence, not the least popular as in Microsoft’s case).  That does not seem like a fight they would want to be in under ordinary circumstances.

      So far, ChromeOS has not gotten significant market share outside of the educational sector, as people have overwhelmingly chosen the full-power Windows PC over the web-frontend Chromebook.  So, naturally, what MS wants to do is to abandon the preferred full Windows PC and to copy the Chromebook, right?

      This whole “web app” trend just has a “fad” feel to it, I think.  It will continue to grow, and maybe MS will continue to morph Windows into a thin-client frontend for their cloud services.  Once that is accepted as the status quo, people will begin looking for the next new thing, and invariably, a return to native code and a more distributed computing model will be part of it. People will begin to “rediscover” how fast native code is compared to web apps, and there will be another mini revolution as computing descends from the cloud and comes back to the client level.

      Whatever the current paradigm is, it’s something else that is always the wave of the future, so we just go back and forth between the PC/distributed computing and mainframe/terminal/thin client/cloud computing as the new “ideal.”  Whichever one isn’t the dominant model at the moment seems exotic and trendy, so that’s where we have to go, regardless of how much sense it actually makes if you can get past the marketing rhetoric.

      Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.1 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #143762 Reply

        wdburt1
        AskWoody Lounger

        In the stock market it’s called “churning” and recognized as something that brokers promote to generate commissions.

        Much of the reason for Win10 was that Microsoft needed something to sell.  Unfortunately, it had more or less run out of useful innovations, while many users regarded Win7 or 8.1 as everything they needed.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143844 Reply

      Ascaris
      AskWoody MVP

      Wonder how many Windows users have similarly jumped ship to Linux and Chrome OS ?

      If you look at the month-by-month statistics from netmarketshare.com, Linux hovered from 1.57% to 1.79% from July 2015 (introduction of Windows 10) to May 2016.  In June, the Linux share breached the 2% point for the first time, and in August 2017, it exceeded 3%.  Their current numbers have Linux share at 2.98%.

      3% is pretty small, but in terms of the relative growth, it has increased quite significantly over what it had been before.  Unless there is a huge change in how Windows 10 is developed, I expect that trend to continue.

      I’m sure that there are even more Windows users who are like me, who have set up Linux and gotten comfortable with it, and who plan to move to it when Windows 7 or 8.1 get cut off, but who still use Windows much of the time at present.  I’m one foot in the Windows world and one in the Linux world now, but I am comfortable enough with Linux that I could make the jump and live there exclusively at any time if I wanted/had to.

      I am not sure if I would ever appear in their usage statistics, as I use NoScript in all my browsing, and I am guessing that would block their analytics scripts.  If it grabs the useragent directly from the web server without having to run any client-side code, I’d be showing up as Windows 8.1 most of the time now.

      Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.1 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #143880 Reply

      madhatter
      AskWoody Lounger

      Let’s not forget that Win 10 is nothing but an advertising platform and everything you do is sent to various spy agencies. Zero privacy or control on what is does your computer. As for support that is a joke just like windows help shows the problem but no solution.

      1 user thanked author for this post.

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

    Reply To: Keizer: Windows 7 won’t shrink fast enough

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