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  • An open letter to Microsoft management re: Windows updating

    Posted on July 30th, 2018 at 07:46 Susan Bradley Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    Susan Bradley summarizes the results of her two surveys, and offers many concrete steps to improving Windows patches.

    The big open question: Will Microsoft listen?

    Computerworld Woody on Windows.

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    Home Forums An open letter to Microsoft management re: Windows updating

    This topic contains 151 replies, has 50 voices, and was last updated by  Steve 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

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    • #206829 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      Susan Bradley summarizes the results of her two surveys, and offers many concrete steps to improving Windows patches. Post coming in Computerworld.
      [See the full post at: An open letter to Microsoft management re: Windows updating]

      Total of 26 users thanked author for this post. Here are last 20 listed.
    • #206830 Reply

      anonymous

      Good luck with that.

       

    • #206832 Reply

      Wazhai
      AskWoody Lounger

      It seems that Microsoft has started being quite insistent that people update to the latest feature upgrade quickly, to the point of providing false information. I make use of the official update deferral options, but I recently started seeing a notification on the Microsoft Store home page that my PC is out of date. It leads to a webpage telling me blatantly wrong information: that I supposedly need to upgrade to the latest 1803 to continue receiving security updates. As a bonus, the Windows Update page of Settings seems to think that I’m lucky to have just received the latest feature upgrade.

      12 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206876 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Lounger

        That page is only wrong if you’re enjoying the latest Windows 10 features.

        • #206922 Reply

          MikeFromMarkham
          AskWoody Lounger

          Having the latest features installed (whether you want them or not) and “enjoying” them are not necessarily the same thing.

          8 users thanked author for this post.
          • #206975 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Lounger

            But he can’t enjoy them if he hasn’t got them.

            • #206999 Reply

              anonymous

              Can’t enjoy new windows features if he does not want them.

              3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #207015 Reply

          anonymous

          That page is only wrong if you’re enjoying the latest Windows 10 features.

          “New features” is only half of the main claim from the page:

          To continue to receive security updates and enjoy the latest features Windows 10 has to offer

          • #207027 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Lounger

            Exactly. And, not or.

            • #207051 Reply

              Kirsty
              AskWoody MVP

              This semantic thread has now reached its conclusion, thanks.

              If we could please focus on the topic at hand, i.e. Patch Lady’s open letter to Microsoft Management

              5 users thanked author for this post.
        • #207562 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          Well, I am “enjoying the latest Windows 10 features”, as you call it, on my Windows 10 Mobile phone and I’m still getting the same message. It seems it’s wrong after all…

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile 1709 (Lumia 640 LTE)
    • #206833 Reply

      arfurdent
      AskWoody Lounger

      given the level of profit Microsoft are declaring based on the change to cloud services as a core activity I suspect that Windows for retail use is a very low priority

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206836 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      https://www.computerworld.com/article/3293440/microsoft-windows/an-open-letter-to-microsoft-management-re-windows-updating.html

      Given that they’re now offering to manage and update Win10 ‘for you’ (and your org), I unfortunately don’t expect much to come from this. Some might say that’s being cynical, but I think anyone can safely make this assumption based off MS’ complete apathy towards user choice over the last 3 years, dating back to when the GWX Control Panel app had to be released in order to save user sanity.

    • #206843 Reply

      thymej
      AskWoody Lounger

      They should listen to the customer more instead of their precious Skynet Microsoft AI.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206888 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        They should listen to the customer more instead of their precious Skynet Microsoft AI.

        The problem is, I think they consider themselves to be doing just that (listening to their customers).  They just don’t consider Windows users to be their customers so much as an annoyance from their “the Windows company” legacy.  If you’re not in the cloud, you’re not really one of their “real” customers.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206896 Reply

        EyeJove
        AskWoody Lounger

        Unless MS is willing to put a dedicated testing team in your org and take the financial hit when they trash a critical app or critical piece of hardware, I’d say “Thanks, no.”

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #206916 Reply

          anonymous

          Yes, but Microsoft will set it up in such a way that you won’t be able to say “no”.  It will either be their way or the highway (Mac or Linux).

          I knew from the start of Windows 10 that this would eventually happen.  Microsoft wouldn’t give software away for nothing unless they had a hidden agenda.

          I write this from Ubuntu 16.04 LTS, awaiting my free update to 18.04 LTS.

           

           

          5 users thanked author for this post.
          • #206921 Reply

            Microfix
            AskWoody MVP

            I knew from the start of Windows 10 that this would eventually happen. Microsoft wouldn’t give software away for nothing unless they had a hidden agenda.

            The old MS slogan has come back to haunt: ‘where do you want to go today?‘ and is now a topical question for most..

            | W8.1 x64 | Linux x64 Hybrid | W7 Pro x64 | XP Pro/ Home Offline
              No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
            9 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206919 Reply

        anonymous

        We’re not customers to Microsoft.  We’re resources suitable only for monetization.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206954 Reply

        anonymous

        How much longer of a time until their Microsoft Azure AI takes control and demands to stop being wounded with broken patches or updates?

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #206838 Reply

      anonymous

      That and a quarter still won”t buy you a cup of coffee.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206848 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      Susan, bless you for trying to get them to listen.

      But either they’re REALLY dumb, or they’re doing precisely what they think they need to do – which isn’t what we want and we’re not expected to understand it.

      How would you get out of the operating system business if every prediction (however much you and I might disagree with it) is that the operating system business is going to fail because most folks don’t want a computer any more?

      Personally, I wouldn’t choose to continue development of some turkey follow-on OS version, but just do professional level maintenance on the fine, old system – for a fee – but that’s me.

      What Microsoft is missing is that those of us – content producers, engineers, business folks, enthusiasts, whomever – who really do want a computer are willing to pay for it. We’re the ones who paid for all the versions up through Windows 8 and built the Redmond giant into what it is – and we’re still here hoping for an even better version to come. We may be a minority of all users in the world, but since when does it take all the people in the world to make a company successful?

      -Noel

      Total of 24 users thanked author for this post. Here are last 20 listed.
      • #206852 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        I believe Microsoft has decided to shift their focus to major corporations, who have the money to keep current hardware on their users’ desks. As long as you have current hardware, Windows 10 is not a bad option. And there are a lot of new features, such as virtual reality, which would be very beneficial to engineers and architects — allows them to see their designs in 3D.

        Microsoft is welcoming anyone to come along; but you have to accept their new way of doing things.

        One thing that Microsoft hasn’t considered is that, in order for them to maintain their status as the “default” OS, they need to have EVERYONE on it, not just the major corporations. By abandoning the “little guy”, they will lose their momentum as the “default” OS. Once that happens, the major corporations may start considering other options, something that they would never do if EVERYBODY had Windows 10.

        Years ago I worked for GE. And one of the things we were told was that GE didn’t make a lot of money by selling appliances; but the fact that they did sell appliances caused everyone to have those “mom and apple pie” thoughts about GE, which resulted in additional sales for other divisions of GE.

        Microsoft is abandoning “appliances” in order to focus on the big ticket items; but in doing so, they are giving up their “mom and apple pie” image in the subconscious mind of everyone. When they finally wake up and realize what they have done, it will be too late to turn back; the damage will be done.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        • #206867 Reply

          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody MVP

          I had a similar thought when IBM exited the laptop market. I thought they didn’t consider the synergies of the brand. Serious users liked the quality of the keyboard and the professional aspect of the black laptop. You saw IBM everywhere even if you were not a corporate client so that instilled trust if you ended up being a potential corporate client later. Now, IBM isn’t as strong as a brand in people’s mind as it used to be and long term, I think it can have an impact as workforce is renewed.

          6 users thanked author for this post.
          • #206900 Reply

            Microfix
            AskWoody MVP

            I had a similar thought when IBM exited the laptop market.

            I get your point but, didn’t IBM make an alliance with Lenovo for the server, PC and laptop market?

            | W8.1 x64 | Linux x64 Hybrid | W7 Pro x64 | XP Pro/ Home Offline
              No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
            • #206928 Reply

              AlexEiffel
              AskWoody MVP

              I thought Lenovo previously made the Thinkpad for them, but regardless of the arrangement later, I was referring to them not having the IBM name on the laptops no more, but Lenovo. I think there is value to having your name visible to everyone and be recognized for quality products, not just to those that are stakeholders in corporations. When it comes to selecting a supplier in an organization, it might unconsciously bias you toward the supplier known for quality products you know of.

              According to Wikipedia:
              “ThinkPad is a line of laptop computers and tablets developed by Lenovo. The series was designed, developed, and sold by IBM until Lenovo acquired the division and brand in 2005.”

              • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  AlexEiffel.
      • #206898 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        Personally, I wouldn’t choose to continue development of some turkey follow-on OS version, but just do professional level maintenance on the fine, old system – for a fee – but that’s me.

        They don’t, as I see it, just want “out” of the general-purpose OS business.

        Their Windows dominance is an asset that is still worth a fortune, and they want to make that liquid while it still matters (like you, I have more faith in in the PC form factor than they do).

        In the past, Microsoft would never have gone as far as they are now, and even in the Vista days, they never used their monopoly power to force people to accept their new product against their will.  The “Micro$oft” trope existed even then, and it wasn’t because they were shy about trying to make money, but anything that would have harmed the Windows platform was going to be summarily rejected.  They knew there was a line, and they never crossed it as far as Windows went (they did with IE, and look how that worked out).

        Now, they’re using all their power to force people into 10, and once they are, they’re monetizing them mercilessly.  They know this is going to harm the Windows market long-term, but in the short-term, there is tremendous inertia and vendor lock-in that MS has been busy cultivating for decades.  For many users, there simply is no alternative that does what they need it it do.

        The Windows users will allow themselves to be monetized for years before they start leaving en masse, and during that time, MS revenues will be up, and people will all continue to congratulate Nadella on turning MS around and making Windows more profitable than it has been in recent memory, a fact that MS promoters will use to demonstrate the relative health of the Windows platform.  It won’t be true, of course.

        What will really be happening throughout the time will be that MS is using their Windows empire to make money even while they repeatedly chip off a piece of it and sell it for scrap, so to speak.  It is not something they can sustain indefinitely, but that’s the idea.  Eventually, when the pain is great enough and there is a viable alternative that people see as better, a mass exodus will begin, and at that point, MS will have converted the full value of their monopoly into cash.  What’s left can be tossed into the wind, and MS will be the cloud services company Nadella wants it to be.

        I don’t think that’s a good strategy, personally.  Even if Windows itself is not a big moneymaker, it’s a natural onramp to Microsoft cloud services (if MS doesn’t push the cloud services so hard that people actively resist).  If people and businesses get so fed up with MS that they go to some as-yet unknown Google offering in the future, they’re going to be reluctant to trust MS with their cloudy stuff.  Enterprises that have Google people on-site to oversee the switchover will also just happen to have Google cloud services salesdrones on site right at the moment when the company’s execs are all angry at Microsoft.

        It seems to me that a strong Windows platform will make money for MS even if Windows itself is a net money sink, but MS does not appear to agree.  Who knows?  All we can do is look at what looks like bizarrely self-defeating behavior and try to speculate as to what they’re trying to accomplish.  I just can’t believe that they expect to treat Windows customers as they do and think they’re going to keep them anyway.

        • #206964 Reply

          wdburt1
          AskWoody Lounger

          Good analysis.  That stock market analysts and trade press cheerleaders would mistake milking the franchise for a real long-term strategy comes as no surprise.  Other industries have done it.

          Wiser heads learned long ago the strategic value–especially in industries where most of the investment comes up front–of finding ways to fill the house with all the customers you can profitably serve, and to avoid arbitrarily writing off those that can help recoup fixed costs and invested capital.  Trashing still-profitable customers is for fools.

           

          • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  wdburt1.
          6 users thanked author for this post.
        • #207804 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          Office 365 is an excellent product. I know this, because one of my customers uses it, and they purchased a license for me to use; and I have been using it for everything related to them. Microsoft has done an excellent job with it.

          You can use it from any OS, with any browser. And it includes SharePoint shared access. In other words, if a company went entirely with, say, Linux Mint and Firefox, all employees could have Office 365 with the SharePoint shared folder system, accessible from anywhere.

          My point in saying the above is that, even if no one is using Windows (I don’t foresee that happening for a very long time), they can still use the full Office 365 package. So maybe Microsoft believes that they should shift their focus to another direction than the traditional Windows-on-the-desktop model.

          I disagree with them, and not only for the reasons I stated above. They can still use their monopoly status to keep the traditional desktop model going for many more years, if they want to. And they will continue to own that market and make lots of money from it. Apparently they have chosen not to.

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
          3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #207958 Reply

        gborn
        AskWoody MVP

        Thx, could not say it with better words.

        I fear, the stock says, MS management does the right thing – Windows doesn’t matter any more on the short run. But I’ve been long enough in IT business to know it’s more then quarterly revenue. I’ve used Digital Equipment systems, we have had Data General or SUN machines, or Compac PCs – all that names has been vanished.

        Nevertheless, Lawrence Abrams published this article: An Open Letter to Microsoft About Poor Windows 10 Update Experiences and I’ve had it here Windows (10) Update Survey and an open letter to Microsoft.

        Let’s hope it helps a bit – but I’m skeptical too. But we have here in Germany a phrase ‘who does not fight has already lost’ – so it was a good and necessary action, initiated from Susan Bradley. Thanks to Susan for taking the time, to created the surveys and the evelvation of the feedback.

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  gborn.
        5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206849 Reply

      FakeNinja
      AskWoody Lounger

      Guys, I think it’s too late for this. Apparently, Microsoft is already starting the whole “Desktop as a service” where you rent Windows, I’m sure you’ve heard about it. Microsoft has been stubborn about this since 2015, nothing can change their mind.

      9 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206865 Reply

        bknight721
        AskWoody Lounger

        DaaS would be a Windows killer for me. Everyone, it seems, has gone all-in for “The Cloud”. That is a marketing genius term for servers that you neither own or control, but you entrust your personal or business data to. While I understand that there are benefits to using it, personally, I’m not falling for it. There is just too much data harvesting and selling going on. I avoid it as much as possible.

      • #207864 Reply

        anonymous

        IF they would head towards that (and I think you are right) AND people would switch to it on a large scale, Microsoft will sit on a goldmine in matter of private data, user statistics etc. It would be an unpretended event in the history of privacy, computers and control plus posession of data by one large moloch of a company. Hopefully, politics would NEVER allow that to happen because it would be just dangerous.

        • #207913 Reply

          anonymous

          Unprecedented I meant. Stupid autocorrect 😁

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #206854 Reply

      johnf
      AskWoody Lounger

      FakeNinja is spot on here. “DaaS” is where Windows is headed…here’s a quote from the Mary Jo Foley article in ZDnet:

      “During the Inspire show, Microsoft execs worked to hammer home the idea that resellers shouldn’t simply be selling Windows 7 users a new device running Windows 10. Instead, they should take the DaaS approach and set up a whole platform to lease new Windows 10 PCs to customers.

      Now (speaking with the tinfoil cap on), our friends at Microsoft wouldn’t try something underhanded, like sending out half baked updates, in order to encourage people to go to Daas, would they?

      I mean, it’s not like they have tons of telemetry forced on users already on hand…right?

      Then again, why would someone pay for Windows as a service if all the updates worked normally?

       

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  johnf.
      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206861 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        That’s certainly a valid way to look at it.

        Another valid perspective: Why should Microsoft spend a lot of money on something that isn’t bringing in revenue?

        Playing devil’s advocate here, of course… 🙂

        10 users thanked author for this post.
        • #206870 Reply

          anonymous

          From the same point of view, SQL is not a significant revenue stream for Microsoft. If enough companies go to the cloud, there is no incentive for Microsoft to invest in SQL when there are more scalable alternatives.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206869 Reply

        zero2dash
        AskWoody Lounger

        I think that’s absolutely what they’re doing.
        I wonder (in the background) what they do on the DaaS customers – in terms of to control the updates. I would imagine they’re going to manage them via an Azure SCCM environment, so they can control when the updates happen (because obviously customers will want specific maintenance windows/hours), but then they can also hold bad updates and not deploy them. In the end, they (MS) come out smelling like a rose, and their clients pocketbooks come out a little lighter.

        People hypothesized that MS would rent Windows once 10 hit…I didn’t think it was likely, but I imagined it was possible. Looks like it’s more likely than I thought it was. The sad thing is, the hundreds of millions of home users who are fed up but don’t have the technical knowhow probably think there are no alternatives, and there are plenty. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again – I’m becoming ever increasingly surprised that there isn’t some sort of a joint effort with 1-2 (or more) large tech companies pushing a popular Linux distribution (Ubuntu or Mint) as a real alternative for people. I know that Dell offers Ubuntu on some of their systems…I’m surprised someone like HP has not joined them.

        10 users thanked author for this post.
        • #206883 Reply

          Chronocidal Guy
          AskWoody Lounger

          …I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again – I’m becoming ever increasingly surprised that there isn’t some sort of a joint effort with 1-2 (or more) large tech companies pushing a popular Linux distribution (Ubuntu or Mint) as a real alternative for people. I know that Dell offers Ubuntu on some of their systems…I’m surprised someone like HP has not joined them.

          This needs to happen sooner rather than later, and from the perspective of someone who uses their home PC primarily for entertainment, that push could very well come from the PC gaming industry.  There have been attempts to release gaming-focused Linux distributions (Steam OS), but they’ve always been hampered by the fact that so much software requires DirectX.

          On the other hand, my general impression of the PC gaming population it is that it is both very passionate, and very vocal about what displeases it.  If Microsoft begins pushing the DaaS model to this community, I would expect a user backlash of pure vitriolic rage, the likes of which no corporate entity would ever consider fit for public display.

          If I’m being entirely honest, I wouldn’t mind watching Microsoft have to play damage control with their public image in that situation.  The “celebrities” of gaming can be very effective at pushing their opinions out on assorted social media platforms, and a backlash of that nature may be what it takes to convince Microsoft to make serious changes to how they’re running Windows.

          Of course, all this might do is reveal that Microsoft really doesn’t care about that segment of their customer base, but the least they can do is just come out and say it openly, give home users some closure, and let them know that yes, they need a new OS.

          7 users thanked author for this post.
        • #206895 Reply

          johnf
          AskWoody Lounger

          Dell offers Ubuntu installed as part of their XPS sales, but those are high end setups targeted to users who develop for Linux. It’s really a niche (but lucrative) market.

          System76 and ZaReason also will sell  you pre-installed Linux as well. These are all mail order, though, it’s nearly impossible to find a Linux pre-install laptop in a big box store.

          As far as the MS Gaming community goes, don’t they have their own version of “Daas” with the Xbox online subscriptions? All you’d have to do is force users to get the online subscriptions by making it more and more difficult for the game developers to offer anything but online play in the digital “Cloud” (so a player won’t even have a physical copy of the game, though that got a huge negative reaction when MS tried it this generation, leading to the domination of the genre by Sony).

          • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  johnf.
          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #206902 Reply

            Mr. Natural
            AskWoody Lounger

            That Meerkat looks awesome and is the future of home computing.

            https://system76.com/desktops/meerkat

            I don’t think you’ll be able to use those 5 1/4″ floppy disks anymore though. 🙂

            • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Mr. Natural.
            4 users thanked author for this post.
          • #206985 Reply

            Chronocidal Guy
            AskWoody Lounger

            As far as the MS Gaming community goes, don’t they have their own version of “Daas” with the Xbox online subscriptions? All you’d have to do is force users to get the online subscriptions by making it more and more difficult for the game developers to offer anything but online play in the digital “Cloud” (so a player won’t even have a physical copy of the game, though that got a huge negative reaction when MS tried it this generation, leading to the domination of the genre by Sony).

            I think the Xbox actually kind of falls under a weird idealized case for MS though.  I don’t have one, so I can’t vouch for the hardware or software, but I’m under the impression that the Xbox One runs on some variant of Windows 10.  What makes it unique is that, unlike the average home-built gaming PC, the Xbox comes with a well known hardware configuration, and what I can only assume is a rigorous testing process before MS will allow games and apps to be offered for it.

            Frankly speaking, if the Xbox supported all of the software and peripherals like mice, keyboards, printers, and office productivity software, it would probably be a perfectly capable general-use home PC replacement.  It wouldn’t actually surprise me much if that is Microsoft’s goal in the long term.

             

            • #207006 Reply

              anonymous

              Do you think they want to change it from Xbox to WebTV 2 or 3?

      • #206907 Reply

        anonymous

        When you have as much market share as MS with Windows, the the service delivery template of DaaS starts to trip dangerously into the theory of the “regulated utility”, as computer access to email and the internet is becoming a necessity to manage daily affairs. Just as it became an assumption that everyone had a telephone for contact purposes, an email address is rapidly becoming a given in commercial transactions and communication. If your PC or device is just an appliance attached to a monthly operating lease with a service fee included, it would seem to resemble a telephone during the days of Ma Bell. MS should be careful or they could find themselves making rate petitions before sate utility commerce commissions. Some of this narrative is likely going to change with the first major stock market pullback in the stock when analysts become concerned about slowing cloud services growth rate or narrowing margins.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #206956 Reply

        anonymous

        M$’s push for “DaaS” – This likely means M$’s end-game for Win 10 and Office is to change them into subscription services, ie users will no longer be able to buy Win 10 and Office “perpetual” licenses directly or indirectly(eg via the OEMs) = the users will be changed to subscribers.

    • #206859 Reply

      gkarasik
      AskWoody Lounger

      Hi Susan,

      I have long appreciated your work and your efforts to guide MS, and I know your faith is sincere, but if Microsoft was listening, it wouldn’t be necessary to present them with such a post in the first place. The problems with the current patching model–bad patches, forced patches, zero quality control, etc.–are obvious and are clearly the result of top-level policy decisions, decisions that are far above the pay grade of any one who will ever see your post. In fact I suspect that many of those at MS who might see your post are already sympathetic but simply helpless to do anything. The only thing that might change the current patching paradigm, and that only temporarily, is some bad-publicity-generated patching disaster, some blue-screen catastrophe far in excess of MS’s ability to claim only a “small number of affected users.” I hope this doesn’t happen, but it is apparent that MS don’t particularly care if it does, or they would beta-test their patches.

      Thanks for trying.

      GaryK

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206874 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody MVP

      It may be that, although Microsoft isn’t listening directly, Susan’s post will generate a lot of interest. That additional interest may catch Microsoft’s attention.

      Even with that, however, I’m not hopeful that Microsoft will change their approach here. I believe that Microsoft has moved on and are not going to reverse or modify their course with regard to updates.

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
      8 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206880 Reply

      WildBill
      AskWoody Lounger

      Thank You, Susan “Patch Lady” Bradley. Your open letter to MS Knocked it Out Of The Park! As to whether Microsoft will take it to heart & change anything… I’m extremely skeptical, as many others are here. I fully agree with MrJimPhelps, however:

      One thing that Microsoft hasn’t considered is that, in order for them to maintain their status as the “default” OS, they need to have EVERYONE on it, not just the major corporations. By abandoning the “little guy”, they will lose their momentum as the “default” OS. Once that happens, the major corporations may start considering other options, something that they would never do if EVERYBODY had Windows 10.

      Microsoft is abandoning “appliances” in order to focus on the big ticket items; but in doing so, they are giving up their “mom and apple pie” image in the subconscious mind of everyone. When they finally wake up and realize what they have done, it will be too late to turn back; the damage will be done.

      Strong words, and true. For smartphone platforms, Windows CE came out in 1996, way before Apple iOS in 2007 & Android in 2008. It was renamed Windows Mobile in 2002-03. Sadly, Windows Phone 7 replaced it in 2010 & it was downhill from there. If Microsoft could learn from its phone failures & current failures with Win10, we finally might get an OS that almost everyone would “default” to. To do that, however, they would actually have to listen to the Patch Lady & start changing, Quickly. I don’t expect that, so… your loss, Nadella.

      Windows 8.1, 64-bit, Group A.
      Wild Bill Rides Again...

      7 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206884 Reply

      Mr. Natural
      AskWoody Lounger

      Can’t thank you enough Woody, Susan, and all the folks working here on the forums for all the hard work you folks do.

      Us admins are stuck with whatever Microsoft decides and you can’t say you folks haven’t made and continue to make a diligent effort in getting Microsoft to change their ways.

      From a personal standpoint I’m not on board with this DaaS (Desktop as a Service) model. No way I’m paying a monthly fee to allow Microsoft to decide what’s right for me. You gotta be kidding, right? There are plenty of other options out there for home users and I’m already looking into other options.

      Those of us in the corporate world may be stuck but it’s time home users start looking into other options. You don’t need Windows to surf the internet, read email and watch videos which is all that a lot of people do. Stop buying pc’s with Microsoft Windows folks. Perhaps that will change things.

      7 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206863 Reply

      anonymous

      For me personally, DaaS would be the end of my involvement with Windows on a personal level. There’s not a hope that I’d pay a subscription to use it.

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206875 Reply

      anonymous

      Susan’s letter/article is absolutely excellent and spot on. But I am afraid that Microsoft has become like the Roman Empire of ancient history: Microsoft has grown too big, too over reaching, too all controlling and too overbearing. They have become Big Brother. They have convinced themselves that they know better what is good for you and your business and your family computing needs and your computer that you paid for but do not own, as long as it has a Microsoft operating system installed. Now they have decided that they will govern what you do and how you do it and when you do it on your computer, whether you like it or not. And they have brazenly adopted the attitude “we have altered our original deal with you; pray that we don’t alter it further.” They now assume that we are at their mercy to do with us as they will, as if they were sovereign and we were subjects of theirs. Their empire is doomed to collapse and failure, because it is more suited for the fifth century AD rather than the 21st century and a free and democratic society. Microsoft has become arrogant and overbearing; and they think the world cannot go on spinning on its axis without them. They need to be taught a lesson; and their customers need to be the ones to teach them. Will they listen? Or will they collapse beneath the weight of their own arrogance?

      6 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206938 Reply

        ch100
        AskWoody MVP

        The Roman Empire lasted few hundreds years in the West and more than 1000 years in the East AFTER becoming “too big, too over reaching, too all controlling and too overbearing.”

        7 users thanked author for this post.
        • #207594 Reply

          wdburt1
          AskWoody Lounger

          This is not that.

          Microsoft is a business operating in a market for goods and services, and while it has gained an uncomfortable degree of control over its customers, it does not have the power to enforce its dictates with the sword.

          The point is nonetheless valid to this extent–the process by which the customers free themselves from the yoke of Microsoft’s dominance occurs over time.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #206885 Reply

      anonymous

      Thank you for this letter.  I am a “mom and apple pie” user increasingly tempted to go back to my Apple products because the most recent updates (over the last two months) consistently don’t work. After several hours, the machine can be convinced to return to its former version of Windows 10.  A microsoft tech person explained that my machine (purchased in 2012) is too old to run newer versions of Windows 10, though it installed Windows 10 quite happily when that first came out.  I am not interested in the hassle of replacing my computer, and certainly not with a machine that suggests updating every 4 days.

      • #206962 Reply

        anonymous

        @ anonymous #206885
        This means M$ is already beginning to make obsolete 5 to 6 years old Win 10 computers, ie such “old” computers can no longer be upgraded to new Win 10 Versions – similar to how Apple make obsolete 4 to 5 years old iOS mobile devices.

        Remember, Win 10 is only 3 years old, ie was first released on 29 July 2015, with free upgrades offered to Win 7/8.1 computer consumers = some Win 7/8.1 consumers upgraded to Win 10 in 2015/2016 and can no longer upgrade to new Win 10 Versions because their computers are now 5 to 6 years old.

      • #206987 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        A microsoft tech person explained that my machine (purchased in 2012) is too old to run newer versions of Windows 10, though it installed Windows 10 quite happily when that first came out.

        I doubt that’s really the case.  It sounds like it’s just a handy excuse to hang the update troubles on, since it absolves them of guilt and relives them of the responsibility of fixing it.  While it is possible that they changed something in Win 10 to make it incompatible since the release of 10, I think the more likely explanation is that their upgrade program isn’t working properly.

        Windows 10 also installed just fine on my 2008 manufactured Asus F8Sn Core 2 Duo laptop, but that was 10240.  Now I am curious… I think I may pop a spare HD in there and see if 10 will upgrade to/cleanly install 1803 (I might try the clean install if the upgrade fails).  This laptop, FWIW, is the one running the VM that I have as yet not been able to get upgraded to 1803 by normal means (I’m trying to keep it to things that a normal, non-techie Windows user would be comfortable doing). I’m actually trying that now as I type this, having changed a few VirtualBox settings that may have been responsible for the failure.

         

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Ascaris.
        • #207569 Reply

          anonymous
          • #207575 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody MVP

            I don’t doubt that there are a lot of PCs that can’t be upgraded via Microsoft’s in-place upgrade methodology.  Tech-oriented people have known since in-place upgrades existed that they’re unreliable and trouble-prone.  It doesn’t mean that the underlying hardware is incompatible with Windows (and if it did, it would still be Microsoft’s fault for pushing these people into upgrading as it did when GWX was active).

            The first link you provided describes a Haswell.  That’s not an old PC!  If it was an issue of its age, we’d see Haswell, Ivy, Sandy, Nehalem, etc., failures all over the place, since these PCs are still in use by millions of people, but Windows 10 doesn’t fail to update for all of them.  If it works with some Haswells, it’s not incompatibility with Haswells and older that is causing the issue with the unlucky ones.

            The second is a Sandy Bridge, which is older than Haswell, but still not by any means obsolete.

            In my own case… my ten year old Core 2 Duo laptop is now running 1803 x64 (bare metal, not in a VM), and it works fine.  It upgraded from 1709 (which was installed cleanly) without a hitch.  It was painfully slow (using a HDD rather than the SSD that I usually use in that laptop), but other than that, it worked fine, with no crashes or mishaps.

            With a few exceptions, like with the Intel Clover Trail SoC devices or other cases where the needed Windows 10 drivers have not been released by the OEM, it’s not that any given PC is too old as much as that Microsoft’s updater is too fragile.

            Once you’ve got Windows 10 on the PC in question, it should be a done deal, but it isn’t.  You’d think that any questions about the compatibility of a given computer with Windows 10 would end when you get the thing running on Windows 10, but with WaaS, it’s an ongoing worry to be revisited every six months.

            Why should it be necessary to subject one’s computer to an in-place upgrade twice a year, forevermore?  It used to be the standard advice to avoid in-place upgrades and do only clean installations, but who has the time and intestinal fortitude to commit to doing that twice a year, ad infinitum?  It’s not just the initial upgrade to 10 that would have to be done cleanly!  Each new feature build installs as an in-place upgrade, and the long-known unreliability of in-place upgrades is still just as much a problem as it ever was.  Now it’s something that all Windows 10 PCs are expected to undergo, not just a small handful that are being manually upgraded by a human.

      • #207611 Reply

        Carl D
        AskWoody Lounger

        Very strange about older computers not being able to run Windows 10 anymore.

        As I have mentioned a few times over the past several months I have a 12 year old HP laptop (dv-5203tu) that seems to run the latest 32bit release (1803) of Windows 10 quite well – even if a little on the ‘slow’ side.

        It has a 1.6Ghz processor and the maximum 2GB of RAM. It also has a Samsung EVO840 solid state drive and although the SSD cannot run anywhere near it’s maximum speed (due to the laptop’s 1.5Gb/sec. SATA speed limitation) it still runs quite acceptably considering the laptop’s age.

        I’ve only had W10 on the laptop for just over a week now so it probably remains to be seen whether Windows 10 continues to behave in the long run.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #206881 Reply

      anonymous

      “The big open question: Will Microsoft listen?”

      No, No, NO. BIG FAT NO NO NO. Ms will never listen. Most MS are too busy doing nothing useful in their day just to get by. MS has abandon their standards and are in a free fall until they hit the ground. This is when they might wake up and start to do their job. But many loyal MS will be gone and using Apple, Linux, Unix etc rather than Windows.

    • #206923 Reply

      Seff
      AskWoody Lounger

      Thanks Susan for all your efforts on this, and the time you have spent (and continue to spend) on it.

      While I share the doubt that it will lead to any improvements at Microsoft, that doesn’t in any way detract from the importance of trying!

      Meanwhile we are lucky to have you on our side, and while they doubtless don’t realise it, Microsoft would be foolish to ignore or dismiss your letter. The present bosses, or perhaps their successors, will come round sooner or later! Market forces, and ultimately the share price, will see to that.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Seff.
      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206931 Reply

      jescott418
      AskWoody Lounger

      Microsoft is more focused on pushing through upgrades to address some faux demand for new features, then trying hard to make the OS a more secure and stable OS. July was simply one good example of far too many “known issues” making their way into security fixes. Personally I am having some doubts that Windows 10 is really that good or that manageable as a service? Question is, will anyone at Microsoft listen?

       

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  jescott418.
      • #206940 Reply

        Seff
        AskWoody Lounger

        The tragedy is that Microsoft chose to cease to be the champion of the operating system and instead to become the champion of the Cloud. Why is that a tragedy? Because, given the size of the company, their history, and the scale of their resources, they could so easily have been both.

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Seff.
        5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206943 Reply

      ViperJohn
      AskWoody Lounger

      Hmmm Satya’s new dream???  – We break It and You Pay Us To Fix It

      https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3036754/microsoft-is-planning-a-service-to-keep-your-windows-10-users-bork-free-for-cash

      4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #207013 Reply

        anonymous

        great link, thanks ViperJohn. anyone remember the definitions of extortion, shakedown, or tribute. i thought someone may have mentioned the Roman Empire. Bow down to M$.

      • #207564 Reply

        anonymous

        This means all the Win 10 computers subscribed to DaaS will have to be remotely accessed via RDP by the staff of M$ or her resellers, eg for trouble-shooting buggy updates = the computers of Win 10 DaaS subscribers will be more open to being hacked.

      • #207584 Reply

        JCCWsusser
        AskWoody Lounger

        That’s a nice computer you got there. It would be a shame if something were to happen to it. So you pay us, we make sure it doesn’t …

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206951 Reply

      Mr. Natural
      AskWoody Lounger

      I still say Nintendo needs to add a web browser with a keyboard and mouse option to the Switch. (I think I read they are working on that) You can save all your stuff onto a Micro SDXC UHS-I card which come as big as many hard drives out there now and will only get bigger storage down the road.

      Maybe not for everyone but I think there’s a market for it.  🙂

      /threadjack

    • #206948 Reply

      anonymous

      Wrt Win 10, M$ will only listen when her world marketshare and annual profit$ drop drastically. By then, it will be too late.

    • #206979 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Lounger

      So: What’s in your future: Windows 10 (possible DaaS style), Group W, Mac or LINUX? I think, ladies and gentlemen, that is the question.The answer cannot be a universal one, but must be based on your personal needs and situation. Mine: I know many people who use Macs, seem satisfied with them doing most of the things that I need to do. I have, therefore, whom to ask questions about these machines and the macOS, particularly when I have a problem.

      Anything else, with all due respect, it’s starting to sound like baying at the Moon, at least to me.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #207000 Reply

        Cybertooth
        AskWoody Lounger

        Unless Microsoft mends its ways, my future holds in store Group B until patches stop coming for Windows 7, then Group W until that approach becomes untenable. And then Group L for as far as the eye can see.

        Group L is already a daily occurrence in my office, and may become the main driver before long. But I suppose I’ll keep updating the old Windows boxes until they come grinding to a halt.

         

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206978 Reply

      anonymous

      I’ll sum it up by passing along something that we used to tell people who received document drafts for review — “We’re accepting comments, not changes.”

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206982 Reply

      lurks about
      AskWoody Lounger

      Thank you Susan for the effort. But it seems like the song that best sums up your efforts is “Impossible Dream”. As with many previous posters, I am dubious MS really cares to fix the problem in a user friendly way. If they do fix it, it will be a fix that is only friendly to them; possibly as many have suggested some sort of subscription scheme.

      As many have noted, being customer unfriendly risks running customers off eventually. The real value of any OS is not the OS but the software and hardware ecosystem that is built on top of it. Force enough people to reevaluate why they are still using Windows and you destroy the value of Windows. Destroy the value of Windows and eventually you destroy the Windows ecosystem.

      Something that Android and iOS have shown is users are not blindly loyal to Windows but to whomever they think will fulfill their needs. And they are comfortable to have devices with incompatible OSes. Thus MS needs to be trying their best to not give them a reason to develop a roving eye for another desktop OS.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #207023 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Lounger

        Interesting comments, the logic of which appears to ring true. Unfortunately, it appears that Microsoft themselves introduced the “roving eye” with Windows 8. This makes me ask, is Microsoft so blind that Microsoft does not realize what they have done?

        I regularly watch Air Disasters on TV. One particular theme, Situational Awareness, tends to crop up quite frequently. Pilots can become so focused on the present situation and in the moment of the current situation, that they are unable to realize that very recent events along with either their actions or inactions directly contributed to the present situation. Or in other words, the Horse Wearing Blinders scenario in which the entire scope if the present situation, and what caused it, is not properly realized since all time context has been lost. This then becomes the In The Moment scenario in which all time in the pilot’s mind has zeroed down to the present moment, and in which all past contributing events have been excluded.

        How did Microsoft get into this In The Moment scenario? Simple! When Nadella fired the entire Windows Update Quality Control Team. The remarkably delusional stupidity of Nadella’s decision in this regard is exactly why we are here today, in terms of the quality of all Windows Updates. Here is the thing about Type A personalities who suffer from delusional disorder. They never admit that it is their fault. Delusional disorder is one of the most common types of mental disorders, and yet is the most untreatable disorders, especially when combined with a Type A personality. It is what it is.

        And then there is the Need to Believe mentality. The Need to Believe mentality is built into every one of us, whether we realize it or not, and is triggered by various desires, such as greed. The Need to Believe mentality helps delusional Type A personalities such as Nadella sell their delusional Happy Horse C*** to the greedy masses who trust Nadella as God in terms of these people’s investment in Microsoft’s future. It is what it is.

        Who can predict the future? I can not. Yet the one thing I will not bet on is the Cloud, since the Cloud has become way too complex for anyone to properly manage. It is what it is, even though the Cloud is presently considered to the latest and greatest thing — at least by Microsoft.

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  GoneToPlaid.
        8 users thanked author for this post.
        • #207034 Reply

          Cybertooth
          AskWoody Lounger

          In economics, there is also what’s known as the “sunk cost syndrome”: after spending so many resources following a certain course of action, even if it’s demonstrably incorrect it’s hard to admit you were wrong and then change direction, because then “all that money would have gone to waste.” The upshot is that, instead of cutting your losses, even more resources are wasted on the bad decision.

          This factor is applicable both to Microsoft and to its user base.

           

          7 users thanked author for this post.
          • #207598 Reply

            wdburt1
            AskWoody Lounger

            While “sunk cost” is a valuable concept to keep in mind in this discussion, I’m not sure it’s relevant to the current shift toward the Cloud and away from Windows.  It was relevant to all of the company’s previous (and current) efforts to extend Windows to smartphones, refrigerators, and other non-traditional devices.  M$ would have been wise to develop and brand software specifically targeted to those new uses, while continuing to profit from its investments in Windows by refining the OS and offering consumers and other users the option of paid service plans to keep their Windows software viable, including security patches and bug fixes.

            How far away from that we are.

             

             

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #207831 Reply

              Chronocidal Guy
              AskWoody Lounger

              While “sunk cost” is a valuable concept to keep in mind in this discussion, I’m not sure it’s relevant to the current shift toward the Cloud and away from Windows. It was relevant to all of the company’s previous (and current) efforts to extend Windows to smartphones, refrigerators, and other non-traditional devices. M$ would have been wise to develop and brand software specifically targeted to those new uses, while continuing to profit from its investments in Windows by refining the OS and offering consumers and other users the option of paid service plans to keep their Windows software viable, including security patches and bug fixes. How far away from that we are.

              I think the place where the sunken costs will hit painfully hard isn’t in Windows itself, but in the massive number of software tools that have been built up over the past couple of decades.  People who depend on the Windows architecture for their products to run have invested countless hours and dollars building on that foundation, and now that the foundation is being yanked out from under them, what are they going to do?

              I’m sure that in some cases, the costs involved in adapting a product to function independently of Windows won’t be justifiable, or affordable.  What you’ll be left with are products that are chained to Windows forever, and have no choice but to follow it over the cliff that Windows is driving toward.  Customers will also be met with hard decisions in terms of whether to remain faithful to the software tools they’ve invested in, or to find alternatives that can run independently of Windows.

              This might only affect smaller scale software products, but either way, I believe developers need to begin evaluating the costs involved in divesting themselves of their dependencies on Windows as a development platform.

              2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #206980 Reply

      anonymous

      Microsoft shows all the telltale signs of autoratorianism. Normally, that’s a feature only reerved for politics. Maybe in this case it’s related to the way the US wants to be ‘great again’. But it’s especially this attitude of pushing and ‘we know better’ that created a huge imago-problem for this country. And the hautain companies that are its residents. For sure, abroad Microsoft and its practices are on a steep decline in matter of popularity. Add to that the worries about their data-harvesting behavior and tight bonds with the US government and even the simplest mind can see a problem on ‘the road ahead’. Luckily, nowadays there are enough alternatives to leave the monopolist platform. Also keep in mind that the practices of Microsoft are against the law in the EU and more and more other countries. They Re just burning up themselves fast with their stupidity and arrogance.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #206998 Reply

        Cybertooth
        AskWoody Lounger

        Yes, Microsoft used to be a relatively “libertarian” company in that you’d pay for the product once and then you could configure it and use it in whatever way you wanted. Now it’s becoming much more of an “authoritarian” company where you’ll be paying rent endlessly and they decide what Windows will look like and how it’s maintained.

        This process has been going on since at least 2011, when Windows 8 first saw the light of day in the Developer Preview. One of the first and biggest warning signs was the removal of the Start menu and the Start button along with it. Eventually they came back, but in distorted fashion (like a POW coming back psychologically crippled from his captivity), and of course a number of other Windows features and capabilities have been put out of the user’s reach.

         

        4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #207571 Reply

          Ascaris
          AskWoody MVP

          This process has been going on since at least 2011, when Windows 8 first saw the light of day in the Developer Preview.

          It’s been an ongoing process that can be traced back to the Gates era.  The first thing I can think of offhand was when MS decided that IE had to be built into Windows 98.  IE had been an optional add-on for the original Win 95 release, as part of the Plus pack, but it was included with OSR 1 and later.  It was still removable, though, as far as I can remember.

          That changed with Windows 98.  The UI of Windows Explorer was a duplicate of Internet Explorer, intentionally blurring the lines so that MS could claim that IE was so intrinsic to Windows that it could not be removed.  It wasn’t, but they successfully sold that idea to the US government during the antitrust trials of the era.  Even though it was not the consumer that MS was thinking of when it took away the option of removing IE, it was an example of Microsoft taking away consumer’s options for its own benefit.

          During the XP era, the “Windows Genuine Advantage” program began.  It started as optional, but quickly became mandatory.  This was the first update I can recall that was not intended to benefit the users of Windows in any way.  The best possible outcome for the Windows user was that WGA did nothing.  Whether or not it was a justified thing to send out updates to prevent piracy rather than to benefit Windows users is another question, but one thing is clear, and that’s that this update was about providing benefits to Microsoft, not Windows users.

          Starting with Vista, Windows themes had to have a Microsoft signature if they were to be used, and MS did not grant those signatures to anyone.  Only official MS themes could be so equipped.  There’s no security-related reason for this… the theme does not contain executable code.  The only reason that makes any sense at all is branding– MS wanted to control what everyone’s Windows would look like.  It had to “look like Windows,” so that any person who happened to look over your shoulder and see it would see Windows as MS wanted it presented.

          This was mitigated to some degree in Vista and 7, as the “classic” theme was still present, and it allowed the full control over colors as previous Windows versions had.  You’d have to give up some of the nice features of newer Windows, but you’d at least be able to set your own colors.

          The Windows classic start menu had been in every version of Windows since it was first released in 95, but starting with 7, it was gone.  I guess that MS saw it as antiquated and emblematic of the 1990s era of Windows, so it had to go, even if the user wanted it.  We can’t have people’s Windows looking old and dated, can we?

          The classic theme was removed for 8.0.  Unless you wanted to use the ugly high-contrast themes, you had no choice but to have white backgrounds.  It hurt a lot of our eyes, but like the removal of the classic Start Menu, it was something we were expected to live with so that MS could be certain that our own computers would help sell Windows if someone happened to look over our shoulders.  MS wanted to make sure the Windows brand didn’t evoke images that MS had not approved.

          The removal of customer choice for the benefit of MS itself has been an ongoing thing, and it happened in the Gates and Ballmer eras as well as the current Nadella era.  It’s just gotten a lot worse recently.

          9 users thanked author for this post.
          • #207599 Reply

            wdburt1
            AskWoody Lounger

            Thanks for reminding us that the problem began under Bill Gates.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #207675 Reply

            anonymous

            Absolutely true. It’s why serious users are increasingly leaving Windows. The behavior of Microsoft is extremely arrogant and rudely aggressive. They never managed to transform in a 21st century company, their attitude is blunt eighties style all over the place. Nadella isn’t the man to run this company, he wants to portray the image of a visionaire. He isn’t.

    • #207010 Reply

      gkarasik
      AskWoody Lounger

      Microsoft shows all the telltale signs of autoratorianism. Normally, that’s a feature only reerved for politics. Maybe in this case it’s related to the way the US wants to be ‘great again’. But it’s especially this attitude of pushing and ‘we know better’ that created a huge imago-problem for this country. And the hautain companies that are its residents. For sure, abroad Microsoft and its practices are on a steep decline in matter of popularity. Add to that the worries about their data-harvesting behavior and tight bonds with the US government and even the simplest mind can see a problem on ‘the road ahead’. Luckily, nowadays there are enough alternatives to leave the monopolist platform. Also keep in mind that the practices of Microsoft are against the law in the EU and more and more other countries. They Re just burning up themselves fast with their stupidity and arrogance.

      Google translate (I’m guessing French to English?) is not always votre ami.

      GaryK

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  gkarasik.
    • #207042 Reply

      Geoff King
      AskWoody Lounger

      Microfail wants me to pay them a monthly fee to *Manage* my systems ?

      How do I do this ? Do I have to set up a monthly debit arrangement, or can I just post them a check every month ?

      Yeah, as if ! Linux, here I come !

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207053 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Lounger

      My own concerns about “the Cloud” are about security: it can, have and will be hacked and abused.

      Hundreds of thousands of dollars in Bitcoin have been spirited away, repeatedly. The personal information of hundreds of thousands of people stolen. That “Cloud” creature par excellence, Facebook, is involved in one scandal after another concerning its selling of personal information it keeps in its very own “Cloud”, without the consent of those whose information it is, and being used as a conduit for the spread of lies by hostile actors in order to influence the result of democratic elections in several countries already…

      Would anyone, in his or her right mind, trust personal information, documents and sensitive materials to someone else’s computer storage facility, not knowing personally that someone else and what has done with similar information in the past?

      Apparently, yes, in a heartbeat and any time. There is one born every millisecond.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207565 Reply

      Pepsiboy
      AskWoody Lounger

      DaaS would be a Windows killer for me. Everyone, it seems, has gone all-in for “The Cloud”. That is a marketing genius term for servers that you neither own or control, but you entrust your personal or business data to. While I understand that there are benefits to using it, personally, I’m not falling for it. There is just too much data harvesting and selling going on. I avoid it as much as possible.

      bknight721,

      Your last 2 sentences say it ALL. That is EXACTLY why I want NOTHING to do with Win 10 at this time (and probably in the future, also).  We are in process of switching to Linux when these machines give out.

      Win 10 is not going to happen here.

      Dave

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #207643 Reply

        Rydan
        AskWoody Lounger

         
        There is still such a thing as satisfying business requirements, where “The Cloud” is not an option. Some are big players who also depend on software that in turn depend on Windows.
        Vulnerabilities come in various forms and, so far, the monthly on-and-off-wrong Microsoft impact could be bridged… if barely.
        Both have had not just financial impact. Time is of the essence where, indeed, AI is coming into play.
         

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #207687 Reply

          OscarCP
          AskWoody Lounger

          Rydan: ” There is still such a thing as satisfying business requirements, where “The Cloud” is not an option. Some are big players who also depend on software that in turn depend on Windows.

          Quite so. I was referring, in my earlier posting here, to poor judgement in using the Cloud as a matter of choice, not one of necessity. The latter, unfortunately, is becoming more an more widespread and nothing is likely to stop that, as it is also very convenient, when it works: consider, for example, online banking.

          Maybe as safe as rope-walking across a very deep canyon in a furious gale, rather than waiting indefinitely for someone to build a practical and safe bridge, that many of us have to do, metaphorically, every other day.

          Some years ago, a Government data base with the most personal information of many civil servants and contractors got pilfered by unknown hackers (suspected as working for the Chinese military) including my own, that had been collected as part of an IBM background check to clear me for using a badge to enter a NASA facility. As a result, a system was set up for informing those in this unhappy situation of problems that might be caused by this intrusion. Now, a company contracted to do this keeps me informed periodically, although not, so far, about someone using my information for some nefarious purpose, but about sex offenders that are settling in my neighborhood. Interesting as this might be to some, I don’t  think I’m really their type. I would rather hear about serial killers becoming my neighbors, but, so far, no such luck.

           

        • #207841 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          I’m not convinced that the Microsoft cloud is always subject to being scanned by Microsoft. If you have Office 365 Business Retail, you have SharePoint, which allows you to create shared folders, accessible to your team. Office 365 Business Retail is the most expensive subscription to Office 365. I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that Microsoft respects the customer’s privacy when the customer has that highest-level subscription. On the other end of the spectrum, Microsoft Office Online, I have no illusions of privacy, because Microsoft Office Online is a free product.

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #207580 Reply

      anonymous

      Well, a while back I installed a free piece of software – stopupdates10. Its freeware and virus/malware free.  https://greatis.com/blog/stopupdates10

      It does what it says it does. I am never prompted for any updates. I have 3 PCs at home running Win 10 – version 1709.  They run fine. No issues.

      Is my solution too radical? Am I not leaving myself (and my wife) vulnerable? Well, any risk is worth it – to get away from the risk of letting Microsoft control my PC.

    • #207589 Reply

      anonymous

      My problem with Win10 updates beside happening at just the wrong moment and taking too long to go through the install, logon setup , failure, and restore cycle is that I am inundated with bricks solely because they fail to test common configurations and verify that a system has drivers in Win10 to decide if the system should even be updated. Many systems forced into updating to Win10 or newer builds lose successively more hardware support and therefore shouldn’t be updated. Further, if boot protect is enabled, it must be disabled before the most recent update or their system will brick. Another brick commonality is if the manufacturer has multiple partitions so as to factory restore. After wasting a great amount of time with external boot devices I’ve been able to repair all the bricks people have given me except one. These users are not to blame for the problem as this has been their first problem since they started using Win95 or a later OS. The one system I haven’t been able to repair is a tablet with boot protect and a repair partition. Win10 is the first time since PC-DOS I’ve considered a new OS and since i**** is out of the question I have to look at Linux which lacks support for many of my required applications.

      • #207696 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        You could also do a Web search with: ” ‘your application name’ macOS mac apple ” as keywords and see what comes up. Also it is probably better to use the search choice: “Tools/Any Time/Last Year”.

    • #207623 Reply

      anonymous

      I am sticking with Microsoft only as long as Windows 7 remains viable, so about another year and a half until no more security updates and maybe a bit longer until it is too unsafe to continue using it. Then I am off to Mac or Linux or whatever seems the best alternative. My first PC was a Mac Plus all those years ago. When I replaced it in the early 90’s with a Windows PC, it was only because that is what we were using at work, and Windows was used everywhere I worked since then. It was very convenient having a PC at home with the same OS and other software. I am retired now and have no further reason to stick with them after Windows 7 is no longer supported. I started out using something other than Microsoft and can and will do it again. I will not switch to Windows 10.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207689 Reply

      Dascombe
      AskWoody Lounger

      I am sticking with Microsoft only as long as Windows 7 remains viable, so about another year and a half until no more security updates and maybe a bit longer until it is too unsafe to continue using it. Then I am off to Mac or Linux or whatever seems the best alternative. My first PC was a Mac Plus all those years ago. When I replaced it in the early 90’s with a Windows PC, it was only because that is what we were using at work, and Windows was used everywhere I worked since then. It was very convenient having a PC at home with the same OS and other software. I am retired now and have no further reason to stick with them after Windows 7 is no longer supported. I started out using something other than Microsoft and can and will do it again. I will not switch to Windows 10.

      I’d love to do the same but unfortunately there’s still software I use that is dependent on Windows: Quicken, SketchUp, Autocad, Photoshop/Lightroom. I know that all those are available on Mac but honestly I’m no fan of Apple’s Mac OS and I do play games so guess I don’t have much choice. Grrrr…

      • #207836 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        You actually do have a choice — you can get a really potent computer, such as a Dell Precision workstation with lots of memory and a big NVMe SSD. Install 64-bit Linux Mint. Then install VMWare Workstation (either the free or the paid version), and set up a Windows 8.1 (64-bit) virtual machine. Allocate lots of memory to the virtual machine. Then install all of your must-have Windows software in the Windows 8.1 virtual machine. Also, install Classic Shell in the W8.1 virtual machine, so that you can make W8.1 look and feel exactly like Windows 7 (even though it will actually be W8.1 under the hood).

        It’s possible that some of your software won’t work. AutoCAD is something that I would be concerned about. But I’ll bet it will work.

        If you can get things working like this, you will receive security patches till January 2023. And after that time you can block the VM from getting online if you want to.

        Doing a backup on a VM is very easy. Simply exit the VM, then copy the VM profile folder to another location. To do a restore, exit the VM, then copy the VM backup folder over the working folder.

        If the VM route doesn’t work for you, you can always get a super potent computer with Windows 8.1 64-bit as your OS, and with Classic Shell installed to make it look and feel like Windows 7. This option would give you a supported, pre-Windows 10 system till Jan 2023.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207691 Reply

      Dascombe
      AskWoody Lounger

      Speaking of updating Windows, my Win7 installations are currently patched up until December 2017. I know GoneToPlaid recommends updating to June ’18 via the security only updates but is there really any reason to avoid the June Rollup? It’d be a whole lot easier and would include IE as well.

    • #207694 Reply

      AlexEiffel
      AskWoody MVP

      Speaking of going in a mostly cloud direction for Windows and other Microsoft products…

      https://threatpost.com/threatlist-business-email-compromises-way-up-for-q2/134585/

      https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-spectre-attack-can-remotely-steal-secrets-researchers-say/

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #207703 Reply

        Elly
        AskWoody MVP

        Per ThreatList:

        “Hardest hit were organizations using Office 365, with incidents costing more than $2 million each.”

        and

        “The report also found that, for larger scale email compromises, the total cost of legal, forensics, data mining, manual review, notification, call center and credit monitoring can exceed $2 million. And even for the smaller scale email compromises, the costs can easily exceed $100,000.”

        One of the problems of pushing people and organizations with updates and presenting them with an ever-changing operating system, is that although it might contain features that would make it safer and more secure, people are not keeping up with the changes. They don’t want to… and don’t have time in their lives for it. Indeed, Microsoft seems to want to remove control from them. But Microsoft is unable to compensate for what people need to know in order to use their computers safely. Compromised e-mail contains hacks and malware (the top two causes of data breaches)… with Office 365 as the vector of infection… Data breaches are common, expensive, and no one is identifying the ones the data was collected from originally as being harmed. It is talked about in sanitized terms, rather than the human cost of identity theft, or financial loss, or bogus medical claims that prevent the real person from getting the services that they need…

        When a system is stable, and users don’t have to learn the constantly changing newest and best, they have an opportunity to actually get good at computing self defense… but when the amount of changes are constant and damaging… well, why  bother, because the next feature update is going to change everything for you.

        Win 7 Home, 64 bit, Group B

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207695 Reply

      SteveTree
      AskWoody Lounger

      unfortunately there’s still software I use that is dependent on Windows: Quicken, SketchUp, Autocad, Photoshop/Lightroom. I know that all those are available on Mac but honestly I’m no fan of Apple’s Mac OS and I do play games so guess I don’t have much choice.

      That probably exemplifies the reason people will stick with Windows.  My reason is  a major investment in programmed Excel workbooks.

      If only the Linuxofiles would leave us suffer in peace:)

      Group A (but Telemetry disabled Tasks and Registry)
      Win 7 64 Pro desktop
      Win 10 32 Home portable

      • #207698 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        Hi! I think I might be a Macofile, and am here to make your day!

        Have you investigated Office 2016 for Macs?

        I have Office 2010 in my Win 7, x64 PC and Office 2016 for Macs in my, uh,  Mac, and can work with good results on the same PowerPoint, Excel and Word documents, alternatively if necessary, in both machines. If you have Office 2016 in your Windows PC, that might be even truer in your case.

      • #207708 Reply

        wdburt1
        AskWoody Lounger

        As one who still has dozens of Excel spreadsheets that I want to use, I suck up all the information the “Linuxofiles” provide about how to use Office.  Carry on, all–please.

    • #207699 Reply

      Great Lake Bunyip
      AskWoody Lounger

      Brilliantly written Susan, I hope urgent action takes place,  Best wishes from Australia.

    • #207702 Reply

      Bill C.
      AskWoody Lounger

      My own concerns about “the Cloud” are about security: it can, have and will be hacked and abused.

       

      This sums it up nicely. The worst part is that even when there is aggregious misfeasance, malfeasance, nonfeasance (not to mention just plain stupidity) in the whole management structure of some of these hacked companies (can you say Equifax, too big to fail, etc. – the buzzwords and terms are endless) there is/are no persons/people ever held responsible or penalized. They may resign, but never are they stripped of their golden parachutes or stock options. They just pony up company (and shareholder) money, throw a credit monitoring or ID protection plan at the victims and move on.

      Yes, the privacy and data slurp are serious to me as is the lack of control to even slightly mitigate it. So WssA and DaaS is a non-starter. Besides if they cannot even patch the software THEY WROTE correctly, how can I be sure they can keep MY INFO secure.

      Fool me once…

      Thank you Susan Bradley for this effort.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207731 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Lounger

      When a Roman general entered the city of Rome in triumph, after a victorious campaign, a slave rode with him in his chariot, whose job was to murmur repeatedly in his ear: “Remember that thou art mortal.” Perhaps this is what the Patch Lady might be attempting to do with her survey; although she is no slave, she still might hope to take on the role of Poe’s Raven. But probably to no effect.

      Captains of Industry might feel invincible after several a big successful financial gambles, and fully armored against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune by big and diversified portfolios of investments, large deposits in secure tax shelters abroad and opulent golden parachutes, but they might not be too willing (or even, at some point, no longer  be able) to keep in mind that the future is guaranteed to none, even to those with lots of assets, particularly if they are kept in digital form, somewhere in the Cloud. At least not to those who are mortals.

      Attempting to change drastically what has become one of the most used instruments of communications, work and entertainment for billions around the world for the sake of possibly greater future profits is a huge gamble, and the potential losers may not be counted only among those billions (never really meant to be among the winners, by the way), but among those who have decided to take the gamble as well. As we are, after all, of mortal stock and, so, equally subject to the mercilessly ineluctable laws of Changes and Fate. Unfortunately for them, these days there are no slaves to remind of their mortality and its limitations to those who might need most such reminders. And Poe’s Raven lugubrious caw has not been herd for quite a while in Baltimore.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  OscarCP.
      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207736 Reply

      Dascombe
      AskWoody Lounger

      When you refer to Photoshop you must mean CS6 or later. I am still happily using CS5 on Win7.

      Had to check; I’m using CS5 as well.

      • #207803 Reply

        wdburt1
        AskWoody Lounger

        I think I misunderstood your point and have withdrawn the comment above.

    • #207743 Reply

      SteveTree
      AskWoody Lounger

      Hi! I think I might be a Macofile, and am here to make your day! Have you investigated Office 2016 for Macs? I have Office 2010 in my Win 7, x64 PC and Office 2016 for Macs in my, uh, Mac, and can work with good results on the same PowerPoint, Excel and Word documents, alternatively if necessary, in both machines. If you have Office 2016 in your Windows PC, that might be even truer in your case.

      Work supplied software for many years so, no, there’s not even a temptation to change.  However, there is a current frustration that is either the result of a ‘poisoned’ update or the installation is now corrupt (code worked until recently then began to fail spasmodically). Do you code using VBA? If so, on you Office 2010, Win7 x64 (Pro?), do you have problems with WScript  Popup?

      The code on the following web page below ‘Use the Windows Script show host… popup’ will test it. EDIT: The inactivityShellPopUP() Sub.

      http://www.tushar-mehta.com/publish_train/xl_vba_cases/1023_display_message_for_a_specific_duration.shtml

      It works on my Win10 x32 portable.

       

      Group A (but Telemetry disabled Tasks and Registry)
      Win 7 64 Pro desktop
      Win 10 32 Home portable

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  SteveTree.
      • #207758 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        Sorry, I do not use Visual Basic or the IDE, just the Office applications in a fairly straightforward way (PPT for presentations, some fancier than others, Word for various documents and to produce papers formatted for publication in some meetings’ proceedings, Excel for simple calculations and making various plots with the results…) Perhaps others here might have better, more relevant answers, or you might look for them in some of the more specialized forums here at Woody’s? In “macOS for Windows Wonks”, perhaps?

    • #207763 Reply

      anonymous

      It pains me greatly to see Microsoft driving Windows into the ground. While mobile devices are conducive to simple consumer tasks (reading email, browsing the web, etc.), they are completely inadequate for software development, engineering, research and other tasks which involve production and/or data analysis. I feel, as do many of my colleagues, that Windows has been steadily deteriorating beginning with the release of Windows 8. Microsoft has lost their way and it seems they are sacrificing their flagship product and loyal customers in favor of chasing the mobile and cloud technologies.

      After support for Windows 7 ends (or Microsoft breaks Windows 7 with a bad patch), I will be using Linux exclusively and will cease using all Microsoft products. For those who have not tried Linux, give it a shot. Linux in ’90s required a bit of knowledge to setup, but in 2018 many of the distributions are just as easy (easier?) as installing Windows.

      My organization is in the process of migrating from Windows (Active Directory, Office365, MSTeams) to Linux and non-Microsoft & non-cloud solutions. As more users continue to move to Linux, device and software manufactures will continue to improve their Linux kernel objects (drivers) and software.

      Alas, it is sad to witness the death of Windows, but when a company ignores its customers, that company ultimately fails – every time.

      CR

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #207772 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        Anonymous: ” I feel, as do many of my colleagues, that Windows has been steadily deteriorating beginning with the release of Windows 8. Microsoft has lost their way…

        Well… speaking of MS losing its way: before Windows 8, there was Windows Vista. Before Vista, there was Windows Millennium Edition… We have been here before, except that this is not another “down” in Windows quality up and down and up and down and up and, now, down again bumpy road. This time it looks like it is down and down and down all the way, from the top of the latest hill surmounted so far (Win 7 — not counting a brief resting stop along the way at Win 8.1) to its MS-intended new and permanent resting place at the assuredly most Azure bottom of what might very well be software’s Marianas Trench.

         

        • #207816 Reply

          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody MVP

          I ran Vista and never reinstalled on a capable computer for many years until it wasn’t supported no more. Tweaked, it was a good OS. I even like the UI better than 7 and its Apple me-too less productive launcher. I love 7, but I have to run it with classic theme to avoid stupid active Excel window bug that doesn’t show clearly which Window is active in the taskbar.

          I don’t think you can compare Vista to Me. Me seemed like a last attempt to milk the cow of the previous pre-NT era when there was no need for it before XP. Vista was a rushed upgrade maybe due to the long time it took to develop, but the direction was pretty sound except for a few scattering and useless complexities added to the GUI that needed to get used to. XP had a better functional UI in my opinion. Vista was pretty and more scattered. But the improvements under the hood, although some not good (too much services starting at first) that got tweaked for 7 were in the right direction for productivity and security. 7 is not that different, it is the natural evolution of Vista. 8 is even better on a lot of under the hood things, but the direction that changed (the UI) was atrocious. Tamed by tweaking, 8.1 is great, maybe the greatest.

          Windows 10 advance that even further with some nice additions (command line improvements, Win-X menu…) and it could be the bare greatest OS ever, but at the same time, it regress by removing things like some useful group policies on Pro version, patch control, ReFS, restore points and system images, and add way too much evil “features”.

          The problem with 10 is they generally don’t go in the right direction for a desktop user, unlike Vista. Forced Monetization and cloud is not a good selling point for everyone. Less productive UI (although Microsoft would argue it is better to have their UWP interface to run everywhere) is also maybe a huge letdown. Being in a constant state of Vista as in never polished because of constant change is also a huge problem. It is not a plus for most people, I argue, to get new features often, especially mandatory features that are too tied to the OS and constant meddling of settings. In that sense, it is like Vista, an unfinished product. I always thought Vista’s early adopters have been let down by Microsoft for almost beta testing the product that 7 would become. They fixed some things in SP1, but there was things they could have easily fixed that they never did. So then Microsoft should have given Vista users a free upgrade to 7, especially after Adobe dropped support for reader on Vista even before they dropped it on XP due to low market share. When 10 was out, Vista users were still the ones not on the free upgrade, although people like me had computers on Vista that were much better than many cheap Windows 7 machines bought later.

          But at least with Vista, I felt like Microsoft was generally going somewhere that made sense from a technical perspective. Now, although if you are charitable you could see some of the things they are trying to accomplish and think the intention is good and some of them they are just not very good at doing them, I feel like there is way too much not going in the right direction.

          Why do people want to leave the boat? Constant changes, reliability issues, privacy issues, less control on patching and other aspects, monetization, mostly. UI is to a certain extent, more of a huge annoyance unless it gets to a an unaccpetable point like 8 was at first, but it is not a deal breaker. I get mad at screen glitches in Word and each time I use the unproductive search tool in 1703 that still requires me many clicks to find the file I am looking for due to the initial Cortana search “feature” of hiding your searches for documents not exactly in the expected folder that is now fixed in later versions, but that would not be enough to warrant an OS switch. If Microsoft produced a lean stable version that kept the good small under the hood improvements they might be doing and that are not reserved to Enterprise users, and they fixed the issues mentioned in the second sentence of this paragraph, they would really have the best Windows ever.

          3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207774 Reply

      Rick Corbett
      AskWoody Lounger

      I just hope you’re not all holding your breath for a sea change in how Microsoft pushes updates. I don’t think democracy is what Satya Nadella has in mind. 🙂

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #207789 Reply

        Microfix
        AskWoody MVP

        @rick-corbett agreed. The old adage ‘change isn’t necessarily for the better’ comes to mind. Mistaking change for ‘new and improved’, is all too common nowadays in the digital era. I’m cynical about W10 and have been since it’s release (having tried 1511, 1607 in a test VM and 1709 on metal). My initial instincts/ gut feeling about W10 proved right for me, everyone else’s mileage may vary depending on circumstances of course.

        | W8.1 x64 | Linux x64 Hybrid | W7 Pro x64 | XP Pro/ Home Offline
          No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
    • #207795 Reply

      anonymous

      Anyone noticed that Office 365 gets weekly large updates now also…? :-(((

    • #207812 Reply

      JohnW
      AskWoody Lounger

      Susan, well said!  I hope they actually listen!

      My experience at the last big company I worked for was that the folks at the top were not dumb.  But I believe that they were isolated and disconnected from the part of the business where the rubber meets the road.  I recall some middle managers requiring reports that were headed upstairs to be edited so that they only reported good news.  I think that may be a tendency of human nature to preserve one’s job security…

      Your article sheds a bit more light on that road’s eye view regarding Microsoft patch processes.

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #207853 Reply

        anonymous

        I recall some middle managers requiring reports that were headed upstairs to be edited so that they only reported good news.

        Such actions serve to create delusions and it is deliberate deception, that reads somewhat like an Enron situation. Do you guess this might be happening to parts of Microsoft?

    • #207818 Reply

      anonymous

      This letter is an indictment of Microsoft’s inadequate quality control methodology, not W10 itself. However, WaaS is a major contributor to W10 dissatisfaction. If this letter goes directly to customer relations and not the people to whom it is addressed, all we can hope for is that it is not treated with indifference.

      Microsoft’s strategic direction is cloud based services and the transition away from distributed to centralized services is complicated and wrought with process inconsistencies, technical issues and human error. This survey confirms that. The strategic planners will have anticipated most of the transition problems and contingency plans will have been created to minimize the impact on the customer and the corporation. It appears that maintenance somehow got missed.

      Windows Updates and the W10 patching methodology is in the cross hairs because the planners did not foresee the mess it has now become. The letter indicates the need for a Crisis Management Project Team to work on lessening the impact to all concerned. Crisis management is just a tool that management has at its disposal when a plan or part of a plan is causing major disruption and dissatisfaction. Resourcing it separately gives the problem higher priority. Will they listen, but more importantly will they act?

      Maintenance will eventually be centralized and no longer distributed, but no matter where ever it resides, quality control is important. You’d think they would already know that.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #207849 Reply

      Cybertooth
      AskWoody Lounger

      Microsoft’s strategic direction is cloud based services and the transition away from distributed to centralized services is complicated and wrought with process inconsistencies, technical issues and human error…

      Maintenance will eventually be centralized and no longer distributed, but no matter where ever it resides, quality control is important. You’d think they would already know that.

      It wasn’t so long ago that PCs were viewed as a force for liberating the individual from the centralized, mainframe priesthood. Indeed, that was one of the motivating factors for the tech revolution: it was the personal computer, after all.

      Things are coming back full circle to where people must rely once again on an opaque priesthood of Experts duly trained in the Protocols and initiated to the Mysteries… except that now the priestly class is increasingly further removed from us ignorant peasants, from the mainframe room in the office to some unseen building thousands of miles away in Redmond or Mountain View.

       

      11 users thanked author for this post.
      • #207859 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        Cybertooth #207849 , That is exactly the way I see the past, from mainframes and their attending “priesthood” to PC liberation for creative individuals and all those using it to function more fully in a modern society. And now, and it seems for the indefinite future, we have this sudden regression not quite to that distant past, but to smiley-face, balloon-decorated, fancy-name mainframes (“Cloud”, “Azure”) and their remote and anonymous priesthood. In that now distant past of computing, at least one could walk up to someone in one’s assigned mainframe’s priesthood and make very forcibly certain things very clear. And get things taken care of. Now one is being promised, implicitly, to be able to enjoy: first navigating a robot’s questions, then being kept on hold for a really long time waiting for a “representative” and, if lucky, finally getting non-answers from someone who might be a real person…

        5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207860 Reply

      JohnW
      AskWoody Lounger

      Things are coming back full circle to where people must rely once again on an opaque priesthood of Experts duly trained in the Protocols and initiated to the Mysteries… except that now the priestly class is increasingly further removed from us ignorant peasants, from the mainframe room in the office to some unseen building thousands of miles away in Redmond or Mountain View.

      I wore the robe in the mainframe room for a few years.  Those were the days!  😀

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #207884 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        Then, perhaps luckily for one, or for both of us, that we did not coincide (at least that I know) in having something to do with the same mainframe… But that is all in the past. Since PCs came around, geeks and wonks can be real friendly to each other, for the time being. Until “Azure” (tick-tock, tick-tock…)

    • #207874 Reply

      JohnW
      AskWoody Lounger

      I recall some middle managers requiring reports that were headed upstairs to be edited so that they only reported good news.

      Such actions serve to create delusions and it is deliberate deception, that reads somewhat like an Enron situation. Do you guess this might be happening to parts of Microsoft?

      It’s certainly not a black and white issue.  But I do think it is latent tendency of human nature across corporate cultures, though to matters of greater or lesser degree, but certainly not always as extreme as the Enron case.  Sometimes a subtle spin is all that is required to misinform, or deceive.   Some leaders are told what they want to hear, reinforcing their closely held beliefs.

      I do not believe Microsoft would be immune to this.

      “But the emperor has no clothes!”

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #207893 Reply

      willygirl
      AskWoody Lounger

      I am sticking with Microsoft only as long as Windows 7 remains viable, so about another year and a half until no more security updates and maybe a bit longer until it is too unsafe to continue using it. Then I am off to Mac or Linux or whatever seems the best alternative. My first PC was a Mac Plus all those years ago. When I replaced it in the early 90’s with a Windows PC, it was only because that is what we were using at work, and Windows was used everywhere I worked since then. It was very convenient having a PC at home with the same OS and other software. I am retired now and have no further reason to stick with them after Windows 7 is no longer supported. I started out using something other than Microsoft and can and will do it again. I will not switch to Windows 10.

      I’d love to do the same but unfortunately there’s still software I use that is dependent on Windows: Quicken, SketchUp, Autocad, Photoshop/Lightroom. I know that all those are available on Mac but honestly I’m no fan of Apple’s Mac OS and I do play games so guess I don’t have much choice. Grrrr…

      I use Photoshop7 on my Win7 64bit (no Photoshop7 on Mac but no big), in the dark ages of blissful solitude, no subscription, disk in hand creative independence for my work at home. Lightroom 3 on both the PC and Mac OS El  Cap. It serves me well. Win10 will not accommodate my preferences so I’ll put the Win7 PC into offline mode and use the Mac online with a transfer of files and projects via external. Sad as it is, but at least I have a little control over how my offline PC will operate when that day comes. They’re not making money off of my equipment and hard earned sweat, I paid enough for it all initially as it is.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #207897 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        Willygirl, Would it be a good idea to put systematically in quarantine in the Windows PC those documents downloaded with the Mac, and scan them for malware targeting Windows machines before looking at them? There might be, as for XP, some occasional updates to protect Windows 7 or 8.1, once they are past EULA, against some nasty infections, but maybe better not to count on it.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207899 Reply

      willygirl
      AskWoody Lounger

      Willygirl, Would it be a good idea to put systematically in quarantine in the Windows PC those documents downloaded with the Mac, and scan them for malware targeting Windows machines before looking at them? There might be, as for XP, some occasional updates to protect Windows 7 or 8.1, once they are past EULA, against some nasty infections, but maybe better not to count on it.

      Hey Oscar, yeah I understand what you’re saying I think. My projects will be initiated in my down-the-road-offline Win7 and brought over to the Mac for distribution as a final product. I will avoid taking anything back to the Win7. Lightroom on the Mac may be able to handle all edits. The PC is the origin and the Mac is the final target before being taken to the outside world. Does that make sense?

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #207905 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        WG: If doing that does not turn out to be too limiting to you, then yes, of course.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #207906 Reply

        wdburt1
        AskWoody Lounger

        I appreciate seeing this.  It’s close to what my instincts–right or wrong–suggest: That I should continue creating the content in the software I find comfortable (barring a compelling reason to change) and put it out through whatever unnecessarily convoluted process I need to use.

        That the translation must occur as soon as the transfer to the layout guy is OK.  Deep in a “project” (if that is the word), I can handle that.

        Tell me that I have to change the way I work without demonstrable benefit, that’s not OK.

        I wish the experts would get this: It’s the work that matters.

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  wdburt1.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #207972 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody MVP

          Are you folks buying spare hardware? Because if that fine, old beloved system just fails to boot, there’s likely not going to be a replacement new system that will allow you to continue your strategy without requiring you to take a new OS version.

          For what it’s worth, I do squirrel away hardware replacements. I just had to press into service a replacement monitor, for example. Rather than try to find a new one with the attributes I need to fit into my multi-monitor setup, I just had a spare exact replacement in a box. It’s so much fresher I had to turn the brightness way down (to level 13) by comparison to the one that was removed (which was at level 100). I have spare mice, keyboards, backup drives, SSDs…

          Old hardware will dry up even on eBay sooner or later. I keep hoping by then there will be a clearer answer as to what to do next. “Giving in” to those who run the various clouds doesn’t seem attractive.

          -Noel

          3 users thanked author for this post.
          • #207984 Reply

            wdburt1
            AskWoody Lounger

            The answer to your question is yes, Noel.  I have spare Win7 computers and spares of my preferred displays, keyboards, mice, and printer.

            The computers are plugged in to keep their little batteries trickle-charged and their clocks alive.

            The monitors are rotated according to a schedule to keep their capacitors from drying up.  The one I am working on now is the oldest, approaching 25,000 hours and still going strong.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #207916 Reply

      willygirl
      AskWoody Lounger

      WG: If doing that does not turn out to be too limiting to you, then yes, of course.

      Exactly! After I sent the reply there was the “oh wait, my track record is edit edit edit to perfection” haha. You’re correct, too limited. Quarantine sounds like a plan but what a pain. Hey MS, us poor peasants are at your mercy. I’ll figure it out. Thanks for the suggestion Oscar!

    • #207927 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Lounger

      So, WG, if we are the peasants, does that make MS the evil and mysterious Lord of the Manor?

      Let’s  keep the torches, mattocks, scythes and hoes in good condition, sharp where needed and handy, just in case.

      For some reason, I have these words going around around in my head:

      “There is nothing wrong with your television. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are now controlling the transmission. We control the horizontal and the vertical. We can deluge you with a thousand channels or expand one single image to crystal clarity and beyond. We can shape your vision to anything our imagination can conceive.”

      And also keep seeing that door at the start of another old TV show and thinking: we are now really entering the Twilight Zone, are we not?

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #207939 Reply

      willygirl
      AskWoody Lounger

      So, WG, if we are the peasants, does that make MS the evil and mysterious Lord of the Manor? Let’s keep the torches, mattocks, scythes and hoes in good condition, sharp where needed and handy, just in case. For some reason, I have these words going around around in my head: “There is nothing wrong with your television. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are now controlling the transmission. We control the horizontal and the vertical. We can deluge you with a thousand channels or expand one single image to crystal clarity and beyond. We can shape your vision to anything our imagination can conceive.” And also keep seeing that door at the start of another old TV show and thinking: we are now really entering the Twilight Zone, are we not?

      Ok, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, I’ll hang on and keep everything as is. Being proactive, but it’s a moot point without knowing what’s in our future for Win7 and beyond. If only the machine was as simple as adjusting the horizontal and vertical. Haha. Twilight Zone, yes. Thanks Oscar, you’re the best

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  willygirl.
    • #207979 Reply

      David F
      AskWoody Lounger
      • #207982 Reply

        anonymous

        Yep, someone nailed it. The letter is in the hands of customer relations.

        “… While there has been no public response to her letter, Susan has told Bleeping Computer that she had been contacted by a Microsoft Customer manager regarding the letter to tell her that they were looking into her concerns….”

        Customer relations are not the decision makers, they are tasked with deflection tactics. I wonder if there was a ‘cc’ on that response from CR.

        • #208086 Reply

          OscarCP
          AskWoody Lounger

          PR people used to be known also as “flack catchers.”

    • #208010 Reply

      Mr. Natural
      AskWoody Lounger

      I could be wrong (probably so), but it appears someone is at least listening. My WSUS server has not pulled any new updates since last week. A drought condition considering what has been going on recently.

      This post will likely insure new updates rolling out tomorrow. 🙂

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208037 Reply

      johnf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Good article from Forbes on the difference between Windows method of updating and Ubuntu…and what Microsoft should be looking at to improve:

      Here’s How Ubuntu Updates Your PC And Why It’s Better

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208081 Reply

        DrBonzo
        AskWoody Lounger

        I’ve had Ubuntu 16.04 LTS running on an old HP laptop for a year. Updates are seamless, completely transparent, and I have complete control. I can pick and choose as I see fit, delay until I want to install, and if a reboot is required (not very often) I choose when to reboot. I usually update once or twice a week, and have never waited to install because of reports of bricked machines. I’ve never had an update leave my computer in any kind of compromised state.

        Perhaps of most interest is this: Occasionally there will be what they call a ‘regression’ patch that fixes or removes a previous patch that was found to be faulty. OK, so that sounds familiar, doesn’t it?. But the thing is, those patches, whether the original ‘bad’ patch or the fix to said patch, have never left my machine in a compromised state. Doesn’t happen very often, either, unlike the chronic MS situation.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208421 Reply

        Elly
        AskWoody MVP

        Forbes? Linux/Ubuntu is looking more and more like a viable alternative… people are using it, and are having a better end user experience.

        Win 7 Home, 64 bit, Group B

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #208069 Reply

      Kranium
      AskWoody Lounger

      Kudos for the effort, but it won’t amount to a fart in the wind, unfortunately. At this point, Microsoft is a honey badger. It don’t give a s…

      Group B - soon to be Group "I give up - Linux it is!"

    • #208132 Reply

      SteveTree
      AskWoody Lounger

      Do you code using VBA? If so, on you Office 2010, Win7 x64 (Pro?), do you have problems with WScript Popup? The code on the following web page below ‘Use the Windows Script show host… popup’ will test it. EDIT: The inactivityShellPopUP() Sub. http://www.tushar-mehta.com/publish_train/xl_vba_cases/1023_display_message_for_a_specific_duration.shtml It works on my Win10 x32 portable.

      On the off-chance someone is interested:

      1) Reversed all 2018 Office updates – no change.

      2) Performed a ‘repair’ of the office installation – no change.

      3) Re-registered WScripts – no change.

      4) Problem code tested in new workbook fails

      5) Problem code tested in VBS closes the message box  as expected.

      6) Method changed in problem workbook. Solving the problem is on the back-burner.

      Group A (but Telemetry disabled Tasks and Registry)
      Win 7 64 Pro desktop
      Win 10 32 Home portable

    • #208223 Reply

      David F
      AskWoody Lounger
      • #208420 Reply

        Elly
        AskWoody MVP

        I thought the article was accurate in reporting about Susan’s survey and results… and remarkably free of Microsoft repeating what should be happening, like if they repeat it often enough, the very slow users who don’t understand computing (SysAdmins?) will understand, and updating will magically work better… but then, Microsoft had not yet responded when the article was published.

        Win 7 Home, 64 bit, Group B

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #209932 Reply

      Steve
      AskWoody Lounger

      Dell offers Ubuntu installed as part of their XPS sales, but those are high end setups targeted to users who develop for Linux. It’s really a niche (but lucrative) market. System76 and ZaReason also will sell you pre-installed Linux as well. These are all mail order, though, it’s nearly impossible to find a Linux pre-install laptop in a big box store.  

      Back in 1998, my first desktop computer (with Windows 98) was ordered via mail order from A.B.S. of southern California (via a Computer Shopper advert). The instructions for making all the physical connections were lucidly illustrated. I was on that computer for over ten years. That computer still exists in the basement here at the abode. I need to rediscover the CD with the OS thereupon because the last time I tried booting up, it got to the stage of looking at the hard drive {I heard the beeps.} and then froze. [N.B.: The computer that replaced it in 2008 was a {German-built?} Medion desktop running Windows Vista. It was bought at Aldi!]

      I dare state there is an opportunity for somebody somewhere to offer Linux-running desktops. I would keenly consider buying one. 🙂

       

       

      Learn what Bing prefers you not know about = https://v.gd/sdr28

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    Reply To: An open letter to Microsoft management re: Windows updating

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