Woody Leonhard's no-bull news, tips and help for Windows, Office and more… Please disable your ad blocker – our (polite!) ads help keep AskWoody going!
Home icon Home icon Home icon Email icon RSS icon
  • Forcing the issue with Win10 v1809

    Posted on November 18th, 2018 at 17:03 PKCano Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    Always a Guinea Pig – Forcing the issue with Win10 v1809.

    I am running Win10 Pro in VMs, so this was a test situation, not my daily driver. The host system is MacMini, MacOS Mojave using Parallels Desktop 14, Ivy Bridge i7 with HD Graphics 4000 and running TrendMicro – the last two are counts against me from the beginning because 1809 has problems with both the graphics and the AV. But this system is also running an up-to-date Insider Preview, so I thought I’d give it a try.

    I was running v1709. In the Settings, I set SAC (Targeted), delay Feature = 0, delay Quality = 0, no pause. Try what I may, I could not get WU to offer anything but v1803, so I let it upgrade to v1803 in hopes I’d see v1809 on the other side.

    No joy. I finally downloaded the v1809 ISO and burned it to a double layer DVD (the x64 is HUGE). I could have copied the ISO to the VM and mounted it there, but I did not want the extra 5GB in the VM. I accessed the DVD from within the VM and ran setup. After accepting the EULA, I chose to keep my data and programs (an in-place upgrade) and let it install.

    The ISO installed Win10 v1809 Build 17763.107 with no problems. i immediately ran Windows Update and was offered KB4467708 which brought the Build to 17763.134 – according to WU up-to-date. Thanks to Parallels Tools driver emulation, the HD 4000 was not a problem. And the VM is running BitDefender Free, so no conflict there either.

    Although I have not had time to look at it in depth, here are some of the superficial observations:
    + I did not lose any data – because in the test machine there was no data to lose and I had not relocated the User folders to another location other than C:
    + Under Default Programs, all my third-party defaults came through (at least they are on the list) – Thunderbird, Firefox, VLC, Windows Picture Viewer, etc.
    * System Restore was turned off (again)
    * Under Network, sharing had been turned back on – I had it turned off in the VM for testing. I have not checked to see if the VM is visible on the network.
    + I went back through all the Settings App. Anything new is turned on by default, and some of the ole settings were also changed.
    * Task Scheduler – I had to disable the tasks under Application Experience and CEIP (again) as they were turned back on. Some of the other Tasks that I have been disabling I no longer have permission to change the setting.
    * I have blocked Cortana/Bing in Group Policy, along with other things like web search. I have not had time yet to go back over those settings.
    + I did not get Apps like Candy Crush. I did open a few of the UWP Apps just to see if they worked. Geezz, they’re ugly! Dumbed down, flat, ugly! No wonder I use Classic Start and third-party programs.

    If that helped, take a second to support AskWoody on Patreon

    Home Forums Forcing the issue with Win10 v1809

    This topic contains 34 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  anonymous 3 weeks, 6 days ago.

    • Author
      Posts
    • #234295 Reply

      PKCano
      AskWoody MVP

      Always a Guinea Pig – Forcing the issue with Win10 v1809. I am running Win10 Pro in VMs, so this was a test situation, not my daily driver. The host s
      [See the full post at: Forcing the issue with Win10 v1809]

      9 users thanked author for this post.
    • #234302 Reply

      Arvy
      AskWoody Lounger

      Essentially replicates my own experience with a real mode test setup.  Its insistence on re-enabling things like System Restore and Network Sharing is a bit of a nuisance.  Other than that, however, it has been quite well-behaved.  No resetting of chosen default apps and no Candy Crush here either.

    • #234303 Reply

      anonymous

      Hmm, that leads me to a question… Have we been getting repackaged builds (using cleanup tools) that were used for some level of development & testing and “it happened to work okay”, or is it several agreements of “this build happened to work okay” and Microsoft builds a Windows 10 version using a snapshot from the source code repository?

      • #234311 Reply

        Arvy
        AskWoody Lounger

        I’m not sure that I understand your question correctly, but both the ISO that I used for W10.1809 installation and all of its subsequent SSU and LCU updates were downloaded directly using Microsoft’s Media Creation Tool and its Update Catolog. According to PKCano’s OP, he also “downloaded the v1809 ISO” and burnt it to a DVD for installation. In any case, that MS source would not (or at least should not) differ from what gets delivered by just waiting for Windows own update process in the normal course of events.

        • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Arvy.
        • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Arvy.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #234340 Reply

          anonymous

          These posts by RetiredGeek & Woody (sorry Gents) here is what inspired the question above.

          More clearly were the previous deemed to be suitable for wide release Windows 10 versions chosen from a single developer’s computer after passing a few tests, cleaned-up and packed for release?; Or after passing a few tests from several developers that version was picked from the Windows 10 source code repository, then being compiled & packed for release in a formal build system (Build Lab) the normal way?

          The area at Microsoft where Windows has been compiled for internal testing was/is called the Build Lab, word has it the process is very convoluted and not possible by one’s self.

          Could it be that maybe they are communicating with each other?

    • #234326 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      I installed my setup from ISO over the top of v1803 and went through the same versions.

      1. I also did not lose any data that I could detect. Windows.old is still there for now, though I expect it to be auto-deleted soon.

      2. I also found my default programs remained intact.

      3. Differing from your experience, PKCano, System Restore (as configured through “Recovery”) remained enabled for me.

      4. Sharing remained the way I had it set before (enabled, but with some specific changes from defaults, such as no HomeGroup).

      5. Disk Indexing, Windows Defender (including the firewall), and a fair number of scheduled tasks that I had disabled were re-enabled.

      6. Cortana did not come back; I had also had it disabled via Group Policy. It seems my Group Policy choices have substantially remained intact.

      7. Taskbar customizations all remained intact.

      8. I also did not see the reappearance in the Windows Start Menu of games I had removed. Like you I had been using Classic Shell, now Open Shell.

      9. I don’t know what I’ve [over]tweaked but several of the Settings Windows Security App sub-screens (e.g., App & Browser Control) won’t open. I’m still investigating that, though everything’s working the way I want; I don’t miss any of that functionality so far. Notably it puts NOTHING in the event log to give a clue why the panel won’t open. Typical Windows 10 behavior.

      10. I left it alone running 24 hours and per my DNS proxy server, the only sites it contacted over the entire day were:

      [18-Nov-18 04:04:01] Client 192.168.2.26, onecs-live.azureedge.net A resolved from Forwarding Server as 72.21.81.200
      [18-Nov-18 04:04:01] Client 192.168.2.26, onecs-live.azureedge.net AAAA resolved from Forwarding Server as 2606:2800:11f:17a5:191a:18d5:537:22f9
      [18-Nov-18 10:36:18] Client 192.168.2.26, sls.update.microsoft.com A resolved from Forwarding Server as 13.68.93.109
      [18-Nov-18 10:36:18] Client 192.168.2.26, sls.update.microsoft.com AAAA resolved from Forwarding Server as 2a01:111:f307:1790::f001:7a5
      [18-Nov-18 10:57:04] Client 192.168.2.26, ctldl.windowsupdate.com A resolved from Forwarding Server as 13.107.4.50
      [18-Nov-18 10:57:04] Client 192.168.2.26, ctldl.windowsupdate.com AAAA resolved from Forwarding Server as 2a01:111:2003::50
      [18-Nov-18 23:14:12] Client 192.168.2.26, onecs-live.azureedge.net A resolved from Forwarding Server as 72.21.81.200
      [18-Nov-18 23:14:12] Client 192.168.2.26, onecs-live.azureedge.net AAAA resolved from Forwarding Server as 2606:2800:11f:17a5:191a:18d5:537:22f9
      

      I’m not sure why it’s contacting onecs-live.azureedge.net, but the others are because I am allowing Windows Update to remain active for now. I have no external IPv6 connectivity and all tunneling remained disabled.

      It’s been pretty stable and reliable so far, and some test builds I did with Visual Studio of a big software solution imply that it’s even fairly efficient.

      -Noel

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #234348 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      How do you block web search in v1803 and above?

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
      • #234384 Reply

        Arvy
        AskWoody Lounger

        Open the Cortana app and click the gear icon to adjust any of its search permissions and/or clear its search history. See https://imgur.com/a/hPYwW2C

        • This reply was modified 4 weeks, 1 day ago by  Arvy.
        • #234397 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          I don’t have Cortana at all (not available in Polish)…

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
          • #234427 Reply

            Arvy
            AskWoody Lounger

            The search feature and its search settings should still be available even if voice activation isn’t available in Polish. Do you not see a search icon near the left end of your task bar and does opening that not give you access to the settings?

            • #234432 Reply

              radosuaf
              AskWoody Lounger

              I have turned this off :). I’ll check the Settings at home anyway and will write what I found.

              MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
      • #234389 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        This seems to apply:

        gpedit.msc, Local Computer Policy > Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Search :: Do not allow web search

        DisallowWebSearch

        -Noel

        Attachments:
        You must be logged in to view attached files.
        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #234395 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          What about this? According to this article it’s broken:

          https://www.ghacks.net/2018/04/07/microsoft-breaks-disable-web-search-in-windows-10-version-1803/

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
          • #234439 Reply

            anonymous

            ghacks article last updated June 14, 2018, there is a pureinfotech article dated June 20, 2018 that may solve the disable web search, possibly?

            https://pureinfotech.com/disable-web-search-windows-10-version-1803/

          • #234532 Reply

            Noel Carboni
            AskWoody MVP

            Over time I’ve accumulated enough tweaks that my setup doesn’t do a web search as part of any Windows search. I’m not completely sure why or what that combination of settings is in its entirety. For example, I don’t even allow DNS resolutions for anything.bing.com.

            That being said, this matters less to me than some because I use Open Shell (formerly Classic Shell) which has its own setting to limit start box searches to be local.

            ScreenGrab_W10VM_2018_11_19_143513

            OpenShelllSearch

            -Noel

            Attachments:
            You must be logged in to view attached files.
            1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #234386 Reply

      anonymous

      There are still people reporting losing data with the new re-released version 1809. MS has not address the root cause of the issue. May be the next re-re-released will fix it…..Or may be need to give windows the boot and go to something else…

      • #234424 Reply

        anonymous

        Can you cite source(s) for reports of data loss with re-released 1809?

    • #234399 Reply

      Microfix
      AskWoody MVP

      Some of the other Tasks that I have been disabling I no longer have permission to change the setting

      Well that doesn’t sound like an invitation to ‘feature upgrade’ from previous W10 versions.
      Is this common to all W10 pro v1809?

      | W10 Pro x64 | W8.1 Pro x64 | Linux x64 Hybrids | XP Pro O/L
      • #234401 Reply

        PKCano
        AskWoody MVP

        Some of it started in 1709. This was basically a two-version jump (back-to-back inplace upgrades) and some tasks are different in 1809. Haven’t had time to go over it as other computer problems (not on my machines) have come up that I have to support.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #234542 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        The systematic increase of disallowance of key changes has been happening all through the Windows 10 build parade.

        Warning: Potentially dangerous deep geek stuff follows – be careful.

        A trick I use is to set up a shortcut to start a CMD window in a most privileged way possible using the SysInternals tool PsExec. The command line I have in my shortcut is:

        C:\BIN\PsExec.exe -i -s CMD /k cd /d C:\TEMP&ver&ECHO Executing as SYSTEM
        

        (Of course if you want it to run in a folder other than C:\TEMP you’ll want to code that path into the command line instead)

        From within that command window, starting taskschd.msc (or services.msc or whatever) means it will run with the maximum possible privileges, and in some cases this will allow you to change things that have been excluded from Administrators access.

        But, there are still some entries that are not allowed to be changed. But if you think about it a moment, everything is controlled from values in the registry. Assuming you can escalate your privilege level (i.e., you have an account that’s a member of the Administrators group), you can always change the registry directly to rid your system of a scheduled job or change a service startup setting. Sometimes you have to take ownership of key(s) and change permissions to allow it. This is deep geek stuff, but it is still effective even with the latest Windows 10 because of the underlying way Windows works. There are references around as to what the different service startup values mean, etc.

        -Noel

        5 users thanked author for this post.
        • #234553 Reply

          anonymous

          You will have to go higher than System and impersonate TrustedInstaller to get at other keys and files. System really doesn’t have root control over everything anymore in these later Windows 10 versions. And for all I do not know they could be write protected at some point during the boot sequence.

    • #234451 Reply

      EP
      AskWoody MVP

      PKCano – Windows 10 v1809 works fine with Intel HD Graphics 4000 (w/ updated or latest driver for it). It is the AMD Radeon HD 4000 that has the problem with v1809 as noted in MS KB article 4464619. The 1809 upgrade won’t be offered thru Windows Update for PCs using the AMD HD4000 (not Intel HD4000) graphics.

      • This reply was modified 4 weeks, 1 day ago by  EP.
      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #234547 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Methinks it’s time to buy a new, supported graphics card. Your computing experience will be improved for it. Most folks don’t realize how far GPUs have come…

        Just for reference, an ATI Radeon HD 4000 series card (specifically, a 4670) that I owned once back more than a decade ago scored 545 on the Passmark PerformanceTest benchmark.

        Today, the absolute least expensive ATI card I spotted in a 1 minute search – a $39.99 MSI Radeon R7 240 – scores nearly double that.

        Put a few more $$$ into the purchase and get, say, an $89.99 Radeon RX 550 and the score soars to 3437.

        If your graphics card is older than a few years, consider investing in new hardware that has Windows 10 drivers being actively developed. Your entire computing experience will be improved.

        -Noel

      • #234552 Reply

        PKCano
        AskWoody MVP

        Yes, mine is Intel. I did not make that distinction in first reading. Thanks.

      • #234610 Reply

        James Bond 007
        AskWoody Lounger

        PKCano – Windows 10 v1809 works fine with Intel HD Graphics 4000 (w/ updated or latest driver for it). It is the AMD Radeon HD 4000 that has the problem with v1809 as noted in MS KB article 4464619. The 1809 upgrade won’t be offered thru Windows Update for PCs using the AMD HD4000 (not Intel HD4000) graphics.

        Since the older graphics cards are no longer supported, I expect there will come a point when they won’t work with Windows 10 any longer due to lack of compatible drivers, if not now, then later. In fact I found it a little surprising that the HD 4000 series still sort of works in Windows 10, having been out of support since 2013 and having no official Windows 10 drivers from AMD.

        If Microsoft is unable to resolve this issue, users with these cards will no longer be able to run Windows 10 1809 and beyond, and will be restricted to 1803 or earlier. If they are not running Enterprise or Education versions, then the system will lose support by around October 2019, before the end of support of Windows 7 and well before the end of support of Windows 8.1.

        Older Nvidia cards such as GT240 and GTS450, which are also no longer supported, will also eventually (or have already) run into problems with Windows 10, like this thread. Windows 10 drivers for GT240 are apparently slightly modified Windows 8.1 drivers which does not support Windows 10 features and have not been updated since 2014.

        Perhaps it is better for users of these older cards to NOT run Windows 10 at all and return to an older version of Windows in which there are graphics drivers available, if for some reason they are unable or unwilling to spend money to upgrade to a newer graphics card.

        Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #234869 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody MVP

          I have had several of my graphics software customers report to me that my software has stopped working, and on investigation it turned out they have a graphics card that’s not had Windows 10 drivers developed for it, and the OpenGL components just no longer work. Basic desktop support is still there, though.

          It’s hard to have to tell someone that they’ve caused the problem by “up”grading to a newer OS version, and that they will need to spend money to fix it.

          -Noel

          2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #234536 Reply

      Tom-R
      AskWoody Lounger

      * Task Scheduler – I had to disable the tasks under Application Experience and CEIP (again) as they were turned back on. Some of the other Tasks that I have been disabling I no longer have permission to change the setting.

      Which other Tasks (other than those in AE and CEIP) were affected by the update — the ones that you no longer have permission to change now?  Also, is it possible to change permissions or take ownership of those Tasks via some other method to work around Microsoft’s insistence that we leave them alone?

    • #234587 Reply

      anonymous

      I update my main machine to 1809 Pro and I lost all my files. I will have to get my backup drive and restore my files. Lucky I made it before doing the update.

    • #234663 Reply

      anonymous

      Same here. All my files are lost when doing the update. I had no recent backup. 6 months of data is lost. Thanks MS for that.

    • #234845 Reply

      anonymous

      I moved the folders from the C drive to another machine after using the Update Assistant, so they didn’t need to be downloaded again and it worked.

      Saved 4 hours download time; ridiculous at 7 gig.

    • #234848 Reply

      anonymous

      Windows 10 upgrade from 1803 to 1809 delete my files. Did MS fix the issue?

    • #234884 Reply

      anonymous

      Failed due to first freezing at 43%, and then after disabling display, removing old USB card and removing USB devices hung at 43%. Gave up after 10 minutes.

      On return the system is very broken, but backed up yesterday.

    • #234921 Reply

      jonadb
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m in the process of upgrading to 1809 after my original computer c*****d out (due to what I believe was a Windows update to 1809 in early October – restarted before the weekend and was never able to recover from the ‘Windows could not repair…)

      Is there a current Best Practices guide for setting up a new Windows 10 (Pro) computer? I’ve found some generic ones but looking for something more substansive on which settings should or MUST be changed to preserve sanity.

      Thanks in advance.

      • #234923 Reply

        PKCano
        AskWoody MVP

        Some important settings to control Windows Updates:

        Settings\Update and security\Advanced
        + Semi Annual Channel
        + Delay Feature updates = 365. I think MS recommends 120, but 365 gives you a year before upgrade
        + Delay Quality updates = 0. I do this so I see the updates in Windows Update and know what to expect. I think MS recommends 14, others choose as much as 30.

        I Group Policy\Administrative Templates\Windows Components
        + Set Automatic Windows Update = Enabled and set the value = 2 (notify download\install). This keeps the updates from downloading until you click “Download” – a life saver.

        If you do a clean install from media\ISO, do so offline. Go through Settings App, Group Policy, Scheduled Tasks, and Services and make the changes you want BEFORE you take it online. Have wushowhide at hand and use it to block updates you don’t want.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #234954 Reply

      anonymous

      What can be done to prevent 1809 from deleting files? Or does it need backups made constantly before updates to make sure files are not deleted? I lost my files in October and now in November the same thing happen. For Nov, I had a backup of the files but I lost all files from 4 years to October 2018 since I did not make backups. MS could not recover the files and Best Buy charged me hundreds but still did not recover the files.

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

    Reply To: Forcing the issue with Win10 v1809

    You can use BBCodes to format your content.
    Your account can't use Advanced BBCodes, they will be stripped before saving.

    Your information: