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  • Patch Lady – Not enough space to install 1709

    Posted on March 3rd, 2018 at 23:53 Susan Bradley Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    Susan Patch Lady here – writing an online letter to Microsoft:

    To whom it may concern at Microsoft:

    I am concerned that in your zeal to make your vendors happy you are “vista-fying” Windows 10. 

    Let me explain:

    Recently I purchased a cheap laptop because I needed another one since I am lately using a computer connected to my TV to watch online videos.  Because I still needed a laptop to look up items, remote into computers and various other tasks, I needed a computer – not a tablet or an ipad – and I needed a Windows based computer.  I reviewed my options for a cheap small laptop and I saw one online for a low price and purchased it.  Knowing in advance it had a small SSD drive I figured that I would have fun keeping it updated and keeping the drive cleaned out.  But I’m a cheap geek, and knew I had options so I purchased it.  The computer came shipped with 1703 Windows Home and soon after I turned it on it started attempting to update.

    The first thing I noticed after the system started checking into Windows update was how sluggish the machine had become. In reviewing the task manager both the CPU and the drive was pegged at 100% utilization causing the device to respond slowly.  Please ensure that when a machine is first turned on and checking in for updates that sucking up 100% CPU and disk drive isn’t the norm.  I’m seeing more and more people complain about this.  Please make sure that when either Windows update or Windows Defender is operational they aren’t taking all of the resources of the system.

    Then you need to make sure that a 32 gig hard drive is really suitable to handle Windows 10 semi-annual feature releases. In my case it’s not and demanded that I have some sort of external storage available to have enough room to handle the update.

    Yes, Microsoft I know that I got what I paid for, but my point is like Vista you are causing undo harm to a platform by letting vendors install it on price points and platforms it shouldn’t. When you shipped Vista, the driver ecosystem wasn’t ready and you had vendors install it on hardware that couldn’t handle the operating system. If one installed Vista on the RIGHT hardware it actually worked just fine.

    I’m seeing in the consumer space of Windows 10 that multiple vendors have selections in this 32 gig space that will have issues getting any feature update installed.  After I get this laptop upgraded to 1709, there’s an HP Envy tablet that a friend of mine has that I have to help it up to 1709 as well.

    I’ll be filing a bug on this, but please don’t “vista” any more vendor offerings. Any windows device should be able to handle a feature update without any external storage – at least in my opinion. And I’ll bet many of your frustrated customers think that way too.

    To anyone else suffering from this issue, evaluate your options. In my case I’m ordering a MicroSD card to add a bit more space. For the Envy tablet I’ll be recommending we purchase that as well to give it breathing space to get this 1709 feature update installed.  Remember you can evaluate the files and storage on the machine and even turn off hibernation temporarily to gain a bit more space as noted in this blog post.  Microsoft does make it obvious during the upgrade to 1709 that it needs additional storage space and gives a various obvious GUI interface indicating that it needs more storage space. After the install remember you have 10 days before it automatically deletes the prior version so check your applications to make sure there are no issues.   1709 is now the most broadly released version, but if you are stuck back on 1703, I would recommend going to the Software download site and trying to install from the update now link at the top of the page and have a MicroSD card on hand should you get stuck.

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    Home Forums Patch Lady – Not enough space to install 1709

    This topic contains 50 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  Ascaris 9 months, 2 weeks ago.

    • Author
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    • #172074 Reply

      Susan Bradley
      AskWoody MVP

      Susan Patch Lady here – writing an online letter to Microsoft: To whom it may concern at Microsoft: I am concerned that in your zeal to make your vend[See the full post at:  https://www.askwoody.com/2018/not_enough_space/]

      Susan Bradley Patch Lady

      • This topic was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  Kirsty.
      • This topic was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  Susan Bradley.
      9 users thanked author for this post.
    • #172079 Reply

      JohnW
      AskWoody Lounger

      Bravo, well said!!!  🙂

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #172093 Reply

      anonymous

      A 128GB or even 256GB ssd should be the minimum for any pc in 2018.

      Come on Microsoft & pc manufacturers, those 2 sizes of ss’s are dirt cheap now and you get them even cheaper than we do, as you buy them in bulk.

      Stop exploiting your consumers!

      • #172258 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        A 128GB or even 256GB ssd should be the minimum for any pc in 2018.

        Agreed, except that I would definitely opt for more than that.

        My current system has a 2TB C: volume. It’s 2/3 full, and that’s also with 2 TB D: and 2 TB V: volumes (also more than half full), not to mention 4 TB of external backup storage that’s always connected, and a separate server system that also has a few TB of space available. More than ten thousand gigabytes. Okay, it’s a geek’s system, but it illustrates the point that a few tens of GB vs. tens of THOUSANDS of GB are 3 orders of magnitude different – and I’d still love to have twice the storage I have now.

        Trying to do anything remotely interesting with mere tens of GB is a bit silly. Yes, a good bit of it is Microsoft’s fault, but a fast, modern computer just wants a lot of data to work on.

        -Noel

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #172304 Reply

        anonymous

        When I have my very trimmed but full-feature working Linux Mint installation having just 4.1 GB, yes I am allowed to mock Windows 10. On this old typewriter, a cheapo Chinese 32GB SSD is a working luxury!

    • #172104 Reply

      anonymous

      Yes, Vista was a problem-child; what is meant by “drive ecosystem”? Also, for many years have been using M/S and rather tired of dog-chases-tail. I would like to know if a Chrome Book would be less likely to have so many problems.

      Lastly, using a computer with Celeron 3K series and have several non-Microsoft browsers on the sytem. Would it be necessarily better only to have Edge and i.e. only, or does it not make a difference? Have noticed goofy behavior when using a computer with an i3 chip as well. Intel is not as perfect as advertised.

    • #172113 Reply

      anonymous

      This sale “scam” by M$ and the OEM$ started in 2012 with very cheap Win 8 tablets/netbooks that came with slow Intel Atom processors and limited 16GB eMMC Flash-drives = quite difficult to reinstall Win 8 or upgrade to Win 8.1 and quite impossible to upgrade to Win 10.

      So, it’s unlikely that M$ and the OEM$ will stop scamming ignorant consumers.

    • #172119 Reply

      fred
      AskWoody Lounger

      Bravo, well said!!! 

      Hear hear

    • #172114 Reply

      anonymous

      So can we call Windows 10, Vista 2.0?

      • #172155 Reply

        JohnW
        AskWoody Lounger

        No.  That was Windows 8.  🙂

    • #172124 Reply

      Ascaris
      AskWoody MVP

      I bought a new, low end, Chromebook-specced Windows 10 laptop a few months ago.  I read the reviews that previous purchasers of the device had written before I bought the little Dell, and one of them was exactly this complaint. Like the laptop you linked, my new little Dell is an 11 inch ultraportable with 32GB internal storage.

      Even knowing of this issue, I purchased it anyway, as my plan didn’t include leaving Windows on there.  With Linux Mint on the little laptop, it now has more than half the space on the tiny 32GB eMMC onboard “drive” free, and that’s with a bunch of stuff installed.  Waterfox, Firefox (yes, it has both for the time being), LibreOffice, Thunderbird, a few basic games, all the updates it needed…

      Now, I must say that I also put in a 64GB micro SD card for /home, but none of the programs I mentioned are installed there.  They’re all on the eMMC root drive.

      As much as I enjoy throwing tomatoes at Microsoft, this to me is more of a case of a piece of hardware being unsuited to what was installed upon it, which I hang squarely on the OEM, not on MS for failing to tell them NO.  Obviously, 32GB (the size of the internal eMMC “drive” on my laptop and yours) is too small for Windows 10, and no one forced Dell to sell a Chromebook-spec PC with Windows on it.  Dell chose to do that.  While I would agree that it would be a great choice if MS decided to allow a minimal installation of Windows for space-limited devices like this one, we know that doesn’t exist as yet.

      I don’t necessarily think that MS should be micromanaging which systems have Windows installed on them.  If they choose to as part of their OEM licensing deal, it’s their prerogative, but ultimately IMO it is up to Dell to sell usable Dell computers (and Acer, and all the others).  There are a lot of ways Dell could mess up and end up with a product that doesn’t satisfy customers, and their desire to not have their name associated with such disappointment should hopefully be reason enough not to do that.  Microsoft can’t possibly examine every product with Windows preinstalled and ensure that it the experience is up to their standards… there’s just too many of them.  Sticking Windows on too small of a drive is just one of an endless number of errors that can make a product fail to live up to its promise.

      During the Vista era, the problem wasn’t just that Vista was being sold on inappropriate hardware.  It was that Intel pressured Microsoft into creating the “Vista capable” seal of approval for their 915 chipsets, which could run Vista, but could not do it very well (notably, their integrated graphics could not handle the Aero effects, a major selling point for Vista).  Customers understandably confused “Vista capable” with “Vista ready,” the latter being the term for PCs that could handle Vista’s Aero effects.  They bought PCs that they thought had been MS certified to run Vista well, and they were disappointed.

      That wasn’t the only reason that Vista had a bad name.  It also had some notable performance issues; it was noticeably slower than XP in several ways even on high-end hardware in the early days.  That would be fixed in time, but for many people, it was too late– they’d already written Vista off.  I was one of them!  The laptop I am writing this on now came with Vista, but I replaced it with XP the day I got it.  I never discovered that Vista became a competent and decent OS until only a year or two before Vista was to go EOL.

      After being delayed for years, Vista still was not ready when it was released, which ought to be a cautionary tale regarding the dangers of releasing by calendar instead of releasing by the state of the product itself… but MS clearly hasn’t gotten the message.

      Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.4 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #172132 Reply

        anonymous

        @ Ascaris

        AFAIK, MacOS and Linux could not run properly on such cheap touchscreen 2-in-1 tablets, eg advanced touchscreen gestures, Bluetooth and webcam not working.

        Compared to MacOS and Linux, Win 8.x/10 is the only desktop OS that was purposely designed by M$ to also run on such cheap touchscreen 2-in-1 tablets. If M$ had not done so, the OEM$ would not have been able to do what they did. So, at the least, M$ abetted the OEM$ in their sales “scam”.

        There was no such sales “scam” with very cheap Win 7 Starter netbooks, which came with sizable HDDs, eg … https://www.cnet.com/products/asus-eee-pc-1005hab-10-1-atom-n270-windows-7-starter-1-gb-ram-250-gb-hdd-series/specs/ (US$250) …
        .
        http://www.businessinsider.com/windows-7-starter-2009-4/?IR=T (Microsoft’s Cheap Netbook Plan: ‘Windows 7 Starter’)

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #172277 Reply

          Ascaris
          AskWoody MVP

          AFAIK, MacOS and Linux could not run properly on such cheap touchscreen 2-in-1 tablets, eg advanced touchscreen gestures, Bluetooth and webcam not working.

          The kind of Linux I use (Linux Mint) won’t work “properly” on those devices, but to me, that’s not a bug, it’s a feature.  Ms. Bradley referred to her device as a laptop, and as a laptop, it doesn’t need touchscreen… most people I’ve communicated with who own such devices end up never using the touchscreen at all when the device is configured as a laptop.  Touchscreens on devices that are not handheld are an ergonomic nightmare, and a dedicated touchpad or mouse is far easier on the body.  It’s not easy to hold your arms outstretched in front of you for hours at a time.

          Still, others don’t agree with me about the futility of trying to make one device do too much, and that’s why Unity and GNOME 3 exist.  They’re designed around the same “one UI to rule them all” parameters as Windows 8 and 10.  How well they work is anyone’s guess; I have no desire to find out for myself, as I consider that path to be a dead end (and so does Canonical, apparently, having abandoned Unity).

          As far as Bluetooth and the webcam… well, they work great on both of my Linux laptops (or the cam would, if it didn’t have tape over it, heh).  Bluetooth works better and more easily in Linux on my dual boot laptop than it does in Windows.  I only wish Win 8.1 did as well with Bluetooth as Linux does!

          None of this changes, though, the base point I was trying to make, which is that 32GB is too small for Windows.  I’d tend to agree with Noel that it’s too small in general, but I bought my 32GB laptop as an adjunct to my 9 year old but still superior in every performance-related way (except battery life) laptop, which itself is an adjunct to my desktop PC.  They each have their role!

          With the new laptop, I wanted something that would be a grab-and-go, use it all day kind of device that fills the role of a wifi-only iPad, roughly, and I wanted it to be cheap.  My little Dell shows battery run-times of 11 hours in the tests done by one of the laptop sites, and while I’ve never pushed it to the limit, it certainly is far better than anything I’ve ever gotten on my primary laptop (which is lucky to exceed 2.5 hours).

          For places where I can “set up,” like a hotel room or a friend’s house that I will be at for a while, my primary (old but good) laptop is my desktop replacement.  I am not out that much in a situation where I need a ton of power, so it is still a decent fit.  It’s got a 1TB SSD, a discrete 1GB graphics card, and 8GB ram, which isn’t much these days, but it’s still double what the new laptop has.  With its battery life limitations, it doesn’t get the nod for any kind of extended use away from an electrical outlet.

          Of course, at home, I have my desktop PC, which has 3.5 TB of onboard storage, and my backup server has another 10.5 TB.  They’re a team… different players have different roles.

           

           

          Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.4 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #172136 Reply

      anonymous

      As well as the points already well made I would add that there are numerous reports that the HP Stream laptops cannot be upgraded.  I myself have attempted the 1703 to 1709 update without success on one of these even with an external storage device.  The upgrade starts but at some point the external drive vanishes and the update process asks for it to be re-attached (which it still is) and fails the update. I’ve tried several different USB drives without success.  In the end I ‘hid’ the update but then along comes update assistant and starts the process again with the same result.  So I’m now stuck with a nagging screen and no way to upgrade. Thanks Microsoft! Why the external drive disappears mid upgrade is not clear.  If anyone knows how to get around this stalemate please let me know.

    • #172138 Reply

      anonymous

      I still think the problem is the entire Feature Upgrade concept altogether. They shouldn’t be releasing such big updates. If you’re going Agile, then you need to do incremental updates, even if you have to include code that isn’t currently in use.

      Rather than Windows 10 being the last version of Windows, you’re just installing a new version every 6 months. That’s why the download is as big as the OS install DVD.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #172156 Reply

        anonymous

        The problem is MS’ pointless forced upgrades.

        32 GB should be more than enough to run W10, a media player and a browser.

        -lehnerus2000

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #172185 Reply

        anonymous

        Hardy Har-Har, Microsoft has a listening and understanding customers problem of which is apart of this “Agile” software development concept.

      • #172279 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        That’s certainly a part of it… if not for the huge feature updates, this particular issue would not happen, but you would still be running an OS that takes two thirds of the hard drive space just for itself, which isn’t a very good situation even if updates worked all the time.

        I did try to put Windows 8.1 on my 32GB device before I went to Linux… I didn’t think I was going to keep it (I never activated it, and had I decided to keep it, I would have needed another product key), but I wanted to see how it would work.

        Even though 8.1 doesn’t get any feature updates at all, it still did not work well with the tiny storage device.  By the time I had finished installing all the Windows updates, less than 10GB was available, even after I had tried to reclaim as much space as possible with the drive cleanup.  Windows 7 would be even worse in terms of the Windows installation ballooning in size as the number of updates stacks up, as its ability to clean up after Windows updates is even less capable than Windows 8.1’s.  None of the three are a good fit for such a tiny hard drive, even though only one of them gets massive feature updates.

        MS could engineer a minimal Windows installation that doesn’t waste so much space, but until they do, it’s all theoretical.  The size of the Windows installation is not massive when viewed in context of the size of typical hard drives… the 32GB drive is the anomaly here.

        Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.4 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

        • #172450 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          I’ll bet Windows 8.0 would work well on your 32GB laptop. Windows 8.0 (with StartIsBack) worked very well on my old 2GB eMachines computer. However, Windows 8.1 was a bumpy ride. Alas, Microsoft decided to quit supporting 8.0 almost immediately after releasing it.

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        • #172490 Reply

          anonymous

          AFAIK, the OEMs preinstalled Win 8.1 on such cheap tablets with 16GB eMMC Flash-storage, using WIMBoot compression, …
          https://www.howtogeek.com/196416/wimboot-explained-how-windows-can-now-fit-on-a-tiny-16-gb-drive/

          = not easy to clean reinstall Win 8.1.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #172158 Reply

      BobbyB
      AskWoody Lounger

      Many Thx to Susan for an enlightening Letter\Article. not sure how relevant this is but its kinda sorta linked. At work we deploy SYSPREP’ed images as back up and of course ready installed on machines out in far flung places, literally;
      To make them typically I either use a VHD or a Partition to create a disk Image for “Capture” or for Win7 Pro (wont run in a VHD and the rest will) and Win7 Ent. Generally with Office and the companies specialised proprietary Software and one or 2 other Goodies in there. I normally figure on a VHD or Partition of about 35GB as a minimum to leave space for updates, etc room for it to work and its pretty full before it gets cleaned out of all the Temp files old updates and other stuff that occurs as a result of installations before “Capturing” to a .wim file. For Win8.1 + 10 normally create a VHD of about 45-50GB due to bigger OS size etc.
      Any ways thinking back to the upgrade days Win8.1 to Win 10 1507 to 1511. M$ used to create a hidden partition on the C:\ drive of approx. 800-900MB, you can only see it with a 3rd party Disk program with presumably “Roll Back” files inside as well as the visible files on your C:\ drive. I am wondering does Win10 still do this? that would account for a 32GB drive struggling to upgrade and poor performance. I was reliably informed that the hidden partition disappears after about a Month. Any one else noticed this behaviour or can say for sure if it still happens?

    • #172184 Reply

      Jan K.
      AskWoody Lounger

      But Microsoft long time ago warned against such small drives?

      And “To whom it may concern at Microsoft”… I doubt, there are any.

      After installing a new semi-annual upgrade, don’t you end up having two full versions installed?

      • #172193 Reply

        Susan Bradley
        AskWoody MVP

        No, the old version is in the windows.old folder in case you want to roll back to it, but it’s not bootable.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

        • #172296 Reply

          Jan K.
          AskWoody Lounger

          Yes, that’s what I meant.

          Not bootable, but otherwise a complete Windows… no wonder disc space “disappears”.

          I find it impossible to grasp the advantage of this method of developing and distributing an OS.

    • #172196 Reply

      Cybertooth
      AskWoody Lounger

      Yes, Vista was a problem-child; what is meant by “drive ecosystem”?

      I’m pretty sure that was intended to say “driver ecosystem”. Then, the sentence makes more sense.

       

      • #172210 Reply

        Susan Bradley
        AskWoody MVP

        Sorry about that, yes I meant driver ecosystem.  Fixed it up.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #172215 Reply

      anonymous
    • #172234 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Lounger

      There is a Spanish saying: “Lo barato sale caro”: “Cheap ends up being costly.”

      The world being what it is, unfortunately, buying something with a 32 GB hard disk could be asking for trouble. I know this is not quite on-topic here, but let me say this: six years ago, my HP Win7 Pro, x64 laptop came with already 60 GB of preinstalled software, much of it not ordered by me, including the OS. But, with 750 GB of hard disk, that was not an issue. I deliberately bought the most hard-disk I could afford at the time, as I was sick and tired of having to give up on doing things I needed my PC for, because of running out of disk space, no matter how hard I had tried not to get there.

      A bigger concern to me than hearing that someone is maybe having problems at home because of a too-small hard-disk in their PC, is knowing for a fact that there are education authorities that buy lots of low-priced laptops and tablets for their schools, particularly in poor countries attempting to give their children a good start in today’s world.

       

       

      • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  OscarCP.
      • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  OscarCP.
      • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  OscarCP.
      • #172453 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        There is a Spanish saying: “Lo barato sale caro”: “Cheap ends up being costly.”

        In English, you could say, “You can pay me now, or you can pay me later.”

        there are education authorities that buy lots of low-priced laptops and tablets for their schools, particularly in poor countries attempting to give their children a good start in today’s world.

        The education authorities should check with their IT folks before buying these inadequate laptops. While some of the blame surely would go to Microsoft, Dell, etc., in those cases you would think that someone in the government, who can call on their IT staff to evaluate a product before they purchase it, would check something out before spending money for it. If they get ripped off with these woefully inadequate laptops, it’s their own fault, no one else’s.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        • #172478 Reply

          OscarCP
          AskWoody Lounger

          People of good will but little technical support, making decisions as best they can and hoping to make things better, particularly in poor countries, are not necessarily to be blamed for trying and failing as a result of not getting what they were promised by the OEMs, as it seems to be happening also around here, judging from what has been posted previously in this thread.

          • #172488 Reply

            MrJimPhelps
            AskWoody MVP

            Oscar, I agree that this is a total scam with regard to everyday people. Most people have no way of knowing these issues; and they don’t have the money to be buying junk. My anger with Microsoft and the OEMs is primarily in this arena, because these folks look to Microsoft and the OEMs as the experts in this field, not the scam artists.

            As for the education authorities in poor countries, anyone who is appointed to a position of responsibility in the government of any country should do their research before spending public money on something, especially in a poor country. And if you aren’t knowledgeable enough in a particular area, you consult with someone who is. For example, if I were tasked with buying cars for use by my department, I would do research into the different cars on the market, including speaking with mechanics who work on those cars, to find out what are the pros and cons of the different cars. I would also speak with people who drive a lot and who rent a lot of cars, to get their opinions.

            If I weren’t an IT professional, but I was tasked with buying computers for my department or school, I would pick what I thought were good computers, and I would forward that information to IT professionals, to get their opinions about those computers. Even with doing this, you can still make mistakes, so I will give them a one-time pass if they bought this junk which is being presented to the market as “Windows 10 computers”.

            In other words, I am angry at Microsoft and the OEMs here; but at least the education authorities could try to get it right; and they are in a better position to get it right than the everyday people.

            Group "L" (Linux Mint)
            with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #172522 Reply

              OscarCP
              AskWoody Lounger

              Don’t want to flog a dead horse too much, but as I see it, those education authorities might be better positioned than the average Joe in their own countries to know what is what, but not necessarily by a lot. As most things where human nature, politics and money converge, it’s complicated.

              The whole issue would not arise if the OEMs were honest and they sold what they promise, and not some useless (thinking of a polite expression here) pile of ordure.

              I hadn’t noticed this was going on. I wonder if it is a new phenomenon, or it’s new just to me.

              But, as the saying in certain circles goes: “Business is business.”

            • #172547 Reply

              MrJimPhelps
              AskWoody MVP

              I completely agree with what you have posted.

              Group "L" (Linux Mint)
              with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #172292 Reply

      anonymous

      Much of this is for you and for curious non-techy readers reading… 🙂

      For just a little bit more money and better performance Acer should have put a mobile Celeron N4100* and a 64 SSD in one of those little computers. Have you been able to open it and see if every bit is soldered to the motherboard? Maybe you can add more memory** and change the SSD.

      I kind of agree with another comment that is does seem to be ‘exploitation of the consumers’. Its good to have different models of computers and computer parts, but some companies seem to take it too far. After browsing the lists of just Celeron processors it seems just silly to have so many processor models that have very slight differences***.

      *4 cores, 4MB cache, burst frequency up to 2.4 Ghz, graphic max dynamic speed 700 Mhz

      **Are ram prices high? I have seen many complaints online, are those people needlessly complaining?

      ***Usually when you get it home and see what other subtle features it does have you may be happy or sad/disappointed/mad. Since AMD provides less online information about their somewhat equivalent APUs & other CPUs, you have to do even more research using third party sites.

      • #172482 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        I have read in some usually reliable publications (sorry, I can’t think of where to find a link now) that the price of chips has gone up because of some combination of production problems at some big manufacturers and a drop in demand worldwide, related to the slow and weak recovery from the late 00’s crisis and shifts in consumer habits.

        • #172499 Reply

          anonymous

          Thank you! 🙂  I had seen a new retail (random brand) 4GB SODIMM module for thirty seven dollars and was curious if that was normal, as that seem to be the most commonly used part placed my machines these days.

    • #172309 Reply

      Sueska
      AskWoody Lounger

      Thank you Susan for your post and for contacting Microsoft. No truer words have ever been spoken. Your story reminded me about my Win tablet with 8.1. A free 1 year subscription to Office 365 was included with the purchase, but because of the low specs (16 gb HDD, 1 gb ram & Atom Celeron processor), it was never installed. Just doing windows updates was agonizingly slow. Thanks to your story and user comments, my curiosity got the best of me and I charged up the device to see when it was used last. Oh my goodness, judging by when it was last updated, it has not been used since March of 2015. Hehe @oscarcp  “Lo barato sale caro” yes indeed.

      • #172621 Reply

        SkipH
        AskWoody Lounger

        @sueska:

        You should see if it can run the “Chromium O/S”, called CloudReady from a web site called ‘Neverware’, link here:

        https://www.neverware.com/#introtext-3

        You have to match what system you have to their list of supported hardware.  I had an old Acer Aspire One, but the video system was not supported and it wouldn’t work

        The non-commercial version is free. There’s a list of supported hardware on that site, found here:

        https://guide.neverware.com/supported-devices/

        CloudReady is essentially a version of the Chrome O/S that’s on Chromebooks. Somewhere on AskWoody.com is a thread where one user installed it on an older netbook of some sort (IIRC…), and it was working good for him.  You can probably do a site search here for Chromium or CloudReady.

        Anyway, it’s a way to get some more miles out of a system that won’t run Win10 or 8, and not have to use a ‘real’ Linux distro (it’s actually running on a custom Linux version of some kind).

        • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  SkipH. Reason: fix a typo
        • #172632 Reply

          Sueska
          AskWoody Lounger

          @skiph

          Thanks for the info, will certainly check it out. Regards

    • #172454 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody MVP

      If you are running Windows 10 Enterprise and you have a certified Windows To Go flash drive, you could run Windows 10 from a flash drive. It won’t matter then that you got totally ripped off when you bought a Windows 10 laptop with a 32 GB SSD.

      It will run “much more slowly” this way than if you were running it from your hard drive, but hey…

      https://www.pcmag.com/article/352209/how-to-run-windows-10-from-a-usb-drive

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #172479 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Lounger

      I was using a flash drive as an external disk, some years ago, and after some months of that it failed. Fortunately it did so slowly, so I could, first, realize what was going on and, second, back up most of the data there in a mechanical hard drive before it finally gave up the ghost. Flash memory, useful as it is, has a shelf life of a certain maximum number of reads and writes  — just as there is a maximum of heartbeats that determines how long one can hope to live. At least in run-of-the-mill thumb drives, that limit is not very high. This is better, or so I hope in the SSD “hard disks” now installed in many PCs, such as the Mac laptop I am using to write this posting, while my old Windows 7 PC takes a deserved rest for today.

      Or perhaps you were suggesting the use of an external SSD?

      • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  OscarCP.
      • #172496 Reply

        anonymous

        AFAIK, USB Flash-drives and SD cards have very basic wear-levelling circuitry. SSDs and eMMC Flash-drives have advanced wear-levelling circuitry. This is reflected in their pricing.

        The former are designed mainly for data storage, ie write-once-and-read-only operations. So, USB Flash-drives should not be used to run a fully-installed OS. How long will the USB Flash-drive running an OS last will depend on its capacity, eg a 64GB USB Flash-drive can run a fully-installed Linux distro for about a year before giving up the ghost.
        ___ The latter, eg SSDs, are designed to run a fully-installed OS and can last quite long, even as long as HDDs. SSDs need to be optimized so as to minimize its write operations. SSDs need to have a 10% free disk space buffer to conduct its wear-levelling operations.

    • #172491 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody MVP

      They were suggesting using a USB flash drive. But as you noted above, this is not a permanent solution, because flash drives don’t last forever.

      An SSD is better quality than a standard USB flash drive, at least that’s what everyone seems to think, because they are putting them in computers as the main drive. I have no reason to doubt that an SSD is better quality than a standard USB flash drive, but I have thought about that question.

      My point in posting about running Windows from a flash drive was to illustrate that there really aren’t any good options when you have only a 32 GB SSD for your flash drive on a Windows 10 computer (or any Windows version, for that matter). Really, about the only option you have with a computer like that is to either open the computer and install a bigger hard drive (if that is even possible), or boot and run from an external hard drive. Or you could wipe the drive and install Linux.

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #172506 Reply

      Elly
      AskWoody MVP

      Microsoft’s Minimum Hardware Requirements issued 5/2/17 purports:

      “This specification defines the minimum hardware requirements necessary to:

          Boot and run Windows 10.
          Update and service Windows 10.
          Provide a baseline user experience that is comparable with similar devices and   computers.

      The goal of this specification is to enable OEMs, ODMs, SoC vendors, and other component vendors to make early design decisions for devices and computers that will run Windows 10.”

      Further down, for a desktop version (includes laptops), it says the minimum specs are:

      32-bit: 16GB storage and 1GB RAM

      64-bit: 20 GB storage and 2 GB RAM

      Microsoft says, off the top, “This specification defines the minimum hardware requirements for Windows 10 and all types of devices or computers designed for this release (Windows 10, version 1703). Microsoft will build and test the Windows 10 OS against the requirements described in this specification.”

      That is less than the specs for the Patch Lady’s new laptop that had trouble updating. She is not going to be alone in having difficulty. Makes one wonder what kind of testing they are doing.

      If people paying $$$ for Surface products get problems and early end of life, what chance do those on budget systems have?

      If I were shopping for a computer, I’d certainly check out the minimum specs, and think I was home free… If Microsoft can’t tell you what will run their OS, who can?

       

      Win 7 Home, 64 bit, Group B

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #172508 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        I can tell you honestly that if you have Windows 10 32-bit and if all you have is 16 GB of storage and 1 GB of RAM (or Windows 10 64-bit with 20 GB of storage and 2 GB of RAM), your computer is going to c r a w l, that is, if it will even work. If you are an expert in configuring Windows 10, you might be able to hobble along with this minimal configuration; but the average user will have no idea how to make this machine work.

        At a bare minimum, you need 64 GB of storage; but the minimum reasonable amount of storage is 128 GB. As far as RAM, the minimum you should have is 2 GB (32-bit) or 4 GB (64-bit).

        By saying that those small numbers are sufficient, Microsoft is being dishonest in the extreme.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #172733 Reply

          anonymous

          Four is a great baseline, but the integrated video will claim its region of RAM first. A minimum of 6 gigabytes will be better for a 64-bit Windows 10 computer. There have been some OEM computer configurations which give the integrated video system 1 gigabyte with no way to change the amount with the setup utility.

    • #172598 Reply

      Ascaris
      AskWoody MVP

      Have you been able to open it and see if every bit is soldered to the motherboard? Maybe you can add more memory** and change the SSD.

      I don’t know about Ms. Bradley’s laptop, but I would guess it’s the same as mine: soldered RAM, eMMC, and CPU.

      My laptop is the Dell Inspiron 11-3162, and I’ve found and downloaded the Dell service manual for it.  Yes, Dell actually tells you how to open the thing up and replace components, and it doesn’t void the warranty!  They won’t cover damage the user does to the system unless Dell told them to open it up, but the warranty in general isn’t voided.  I find that surprisingly pleasant… I don’t really know how common that is, but my cynicism would have had me believe that as soon as screwdriver hits screw, the warranty is done.

      Even though I matched the Dell model number and service ID to the manual, the service manual describes socketed ram and a removable eMMC drive module, which my laptop definitely does not have. I got it for $180, so I didn’t expect it to, but it would have been a pleasant surprise if it had.

      In cases like this, I have actually found eBay to be an invaluable reference resource.  If you search for the laptop model number and “motherboard,” you will often see several of them for sale, sometimes with clear, high-resolution photos.  Not one of the motherboards for the 11-3162 had the socketed RAM or removable eMMC storage module the Dell manual described.  I verified that being the case with mine too when I opened it to replace the wifi card (Intel 3160ac -> Intel 7265ac).  At least THAT was removable!

      Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.4 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #172625 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Lounger

      What is this: micro-food?

      I like lots of hard drive space. Do you ever see programs decrease in size? Do you need less or more data storage as time passes? If there’s not enough hard drive to start, there won’t ever be enough.

      Mini-shrimp with a sprig of parsley. Cute, but not filling.

      Group G{ot backup} Win7 · x64 · SP1 · i3-3220 · TestBeta
      • #172730 Reply

        Cybertooth
        AskWoody Lounger

        IMO, these laptops with small-capacity drives are a step in the direction of “thin client”-type cloud devices, where neither your programs nor your data reside on the machine itself, but on somebody else’s server.

         

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #172788 Reply

          Ascaris
          AskWoody MVP

          These machines seem to be repurposed Chromebooks that simply have a full PC UEFI instead of the Chromebook version.  In size, spec, and price, they’re virtually indistinguishable from Chromebooks, and Chromebooks are very much as you describe (thin-client like), Cybertooth.  I’ve seen the tiny eMMC drives these devices have described as being done intentionally to promote Google’s cloud storage.

          In my case, that’s what I was looking for.  I actually considered Chromebooks as well as Windows laptops, since it is possible to install Linux (of the user’s choosing; ChromeOS itself is a Linux flavor) on a Chromebook.

          It ends up being similar to a Chromebook in function, except one where I can use Waterfox instead.  With its 64 GB micro SD, there’s plenty of room for non-video data (and I can go bigger later, of course, if I need to).  As a standalone machine, 32GB internal and 64GB external would still be woefully inadequate, but in that line of thinking, the CPU would be far too slow and the RAM far too small as well.  If I am going to be in a place where I have access to an electrical outlet, I would much rather use my “main” laptop.  From its better performance to its 2.75mm stroke keys (compared to 1.5 on the little laptop) to its larger 16:10 display to its touchpad with real buttons, the older “main” laptop is just more pleasant to use all around, if its girth and short battery life aren’t primary factors.  It just goes to show how much things have changed since the height of the Moore’s Law era.  I like it better this way… I like having gear that doesn’t go obsolete almost as soon as the box is open!

           

          Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.4 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

          2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #172771 Reply

      anonymous

      Like they say, “Caveat Emptor” or Buyers Beware. Computer buyers should beware of M$ and the OEMs.
      .
      .
      Eg some high-end laptops from Lenovo and Dell come with Win 10 preinstalled in fake-RAID disk mode using the proprietary Intel RST driver = cannot install Win 7/8.x or Linux. Even doing a clean reinstall of Win 10 will not be easy. …
      https://triplescomputers.com/blog/uncategorized/solution-switch-windows-10-from-raidide-to-ahci-operation/ (… without the need to reinstall Win 10 in AHCI disk mode)
      http://en.community.dell.com/techcenter/os-applications/f/4613/t/19659260

      Some OEM Win 8.x/10 computers, eg Acer, Asus and HP, have an obstructive or pro-M$ UEFI-BIOS setting for “select an UEFI file as trusted for executing”,(= Win 7/8.x and Linux cannot boot properly). For the fix, please refer to …
      https://itsfoss.com/no-bootable-device-found-ubuntu/
      https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=236560 (Re: [SOLVED] :Installed Linux Mint 18.1Cinnamon x64 on Acer One 1-132 Black Screen Issues after Install)

      Some recent(= end 2017) OEM laptops, eg the Acer E and S series, may have even removed this UEFI-BIOS setting(eg “No bootable device” after installing Linux and cannot be fixed), but may be restored by a new BIOS firmware update from the OEMs = update through Windows only. This was after many complaints from affected users. …
      https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=254948 (Re: Acer Es1-132 – “No bootable device” [SOLVED])
      ___ Another workaround is …
      https://askubuntu.com/questions/862946/unable-to-install-ubuntu-on-acer-aspire-es1-533

      2 users thanked author for this post.

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