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  • Report of the Win10 1709 cumulative update KB 4074588 disabling USB devices

    Posted on February 16th, 2018 at 09:53 woody Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    I’m seeing sporadic reports of this month’s Win10 version 1709 cumulative update, KB 4074588, causing problems with USB-attached devices.

    Per trongod on the MSI forum:

    I thought I would pass this information along. Tonight I had to reboot my laptop. After rebooting I lost my usb mouse and any device plugged into the USB ports. I went into my device manager and saw 3 devices that said drivers could not be found:

    MSI EPF USB
    USB Receiver
    USB Receiver

    I knew the night before a Windows 10 update was installed so I looked up the last update which was KB4074588. According to this site LAPTOPNINJA, it says the following:

    Addresses issue where the certutil.exe -MergePfx feature couldn’t produce a merged EPF file for multiple V1 certificates.
    Addresses issue where booting with Unified Write Filter (UWF) turned on may lead to stop error 0xE1 in embedded devices, particularly when using a USB HUB.

    Since both of those particular updates had both EPF and USB involved, I uninstalled the update. After that everything was working again. Looks like Microsoft is breaking stuff again and I don’t see any updated chipset drivers on the MSI site since the original. I may have to see if I can find something more up to date, try those and then attempt the update again.

    Poster brozkeff goes on to say:

    I have the very same symptoms on a All-in-One HP PC with Win10, AMD A6 APU, Radeon R4 graphics and AMD USB 3.0 controller. Afer this update the USB devices stopped working once they were reconnected. Not resolved after reboot and full poweroff/poweron. The USB devices are somewhat recognized but appear in the Device manager as Other devices , missing drivers. Regular USB keyboard  appears as composite USB device, etc.

    There are several other reports of odd USB device behavior after installing the KB. And, of course, there’s the usual spatter of reports about the KB failing to install.

    Can anybody out there confirm? Any idea what might be at the core of the problem?

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    Home Forums Report of the Win10 1709 cumulative update KB 4074588 disabling USB devices

    This topic contains 108 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  MrBrian 8 months, 1 week ago.

    • Author
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    • #167808 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      I’m seeing sporadic reports of this month’s Win10 version 1709 cumulative update, KB 4074588, causing problems with USB-attached devices. Per trongod

      UPDATE: If you’re experiencing this problem, please see this post and help come up with a solution!

      [See the full post at: Report of the Win10 1709 cumulative update KB 4074588 disabling USB devices]

    • #167814 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      No issues with any USB devices on my 3 1709 machines which installed this yesterday.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #169180 Reply

        anonymous

        Thank you!!! This page at last pointed me in the right direction. Uninstalling KB update under cmd from boot disk.

    • #167822 Reply

      BobbyB
      AskWoody Lounger

      It may be a good time for Win10 1709 Pro & above Vers., users\sufferer’s to have a quick check of your settings.
      Settings->Windows update->Advanced set at “Semi Annual Channel” 365, 30 going down the page. Then check your configured Policies thus:

      win-update-1709-gpol-settings

      If not set as above then WIN-R type gpedit.msc, Computer configuration->Administrative Templates->Windows Components->Windows Update: “Configure Windows update” set to 2. and\or get updates for other windows products box ticked (your call if you want Office etc to update), “Do not Include drivers with Windows update” set to: enabled.
      This works a treat I don’t see any updates for patch Tuesday until about the 28-29th day after and it doesent stop you getting Anti-Virus Signature updates. If you set the other Group policies in Group Policy to 365 and 30 respectively then they pretty much stop everything even the AV signature updates, any way worth a glance as it’s early days yet or you could always set to “pause” in settings.

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      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #167843 Reply

      Jim
      AskWoody Lounger

      OK, I’m confused, which is not a new thing for me.  When I check the “installed updates” I get conflicting messages.  The top one says that the cumulative update failed on 2/15 and the next one down says the cumulative update was installed on 2/15.  Oh, I am using the “metered connection” thing.  As far as USB goes, I have noticed that periodically my mouse gets flakey.  It works but, for want of a better term, stutters.

      • #168631 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        If the cumulative update is listed as Installed, it’s installed.

        Mouse stuttering may be update related, but it’s much more likely to be from some other cause, just coincidentally showing up right now. You can always uninstall the update and see if that fixes the problem.

    • #167848 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody MVP

      I have had USB go out on my computer twice in the past: sometime around 2012, and in 2015. I believe that both computers were Windows 7.

      I had PS/2 ports on both of those computers, as well as an available PS/2 mouse and keyboard, so I was able to work. I fixed the problem (don’t remember how) in 2012; couldn’t fix it in 2015, so I installed a USB controller card to get USB ports, then the onboard ports started working again a few months later with no intervention on my part.

      My point is, I don’t believe that USB is a fully mature and robust technology, so it is more vulnerable to failure than other technologies.

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
      • #167940 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        USB first arrived over 20 years ago (first supported by Windows 95 OSR 2.1), so it’s certainly mature in computer years. The primary complaint over all these years has been the inconvenience of having to make sure the plug was oriented the right way, which has been addressed with the USB Type C specification.

        As far as failures go, I’ve never experienced a USB port failure in any of my PCs, but that in and of itself doesn’t mean much.  I’ve not seen any reports of widespread USB port failures; isolated anecdotes here and there, sure, but any of them could have been caused by many things, like foreign objects inadvertently being pushed into the port, attempted inverted installation of the USB plug causing physical damage to the port, shorting from food or drink spillage, or electrical damage from poor quality USB devices or even static electricity.

        USB ports are everywhere these days, exposed to all that stuff I mentioned, and so if any port is going to take that kind of damage, odds are it will be a USB port.  Other ports may be just as vulnerable, but they’re not around in such large numbers, nor are they used as much.  I have 8 USB ports on the front of my desktop PC (actually in a full tower case), and I am plugging and unplugging things into them constantly.  All the other ports are either always in use and not subject to plugging and unplugging (HDMI out from my video card, ethernet port, speaker out, etc.,) or are seldom or never used (firewire, eSATA, second ethernet port, all the other sound outputs and inputs).  It stands to reason that if something was going to happen to any of the ports, it would be the USB ones, simply because of how many more opportunities there are for something to go wrong with it.

        It is also possible that some motherboard manufacturers take the cheap way out and don’t provide adequate overcurrent protection on their ports.  An external USB powered HDD or a phone charger may end up pulling more current than the port can handle, but that’s not something that should usually cause permanent failure.

        Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.3 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

        • #167944 Reply

          PKCano
          AskWoody MVP

          I saw a User with a 4-port hub, with flash drives in all four ports, blow a USB port on a laptop. It can happen if people don’t understand, if the USB device has no other power supp;y, the port powers the device that is plugged in.

          • #168053 Reply

            MrJimPhelps
            AskWoody MVP

            I ALWAYS advise people to buy USB device (USB hubs, USB external hard drives, etc) which have their own power supplies, so that all USB devices will have adequate power.

            Group "L" (Linux Mint)
            with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
            1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #168528 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody MVP

            A USB port should have overcurrent protection to preserve it in just such a case.  Especially now that people are charging phones via USB ports all the time, which was something I don’t imagine they envisioned back when the USB (1.0) specification was being drawn up.

            Of course, what should happen and what does happen are often different.  It’s cheaper not to put on robust overcurrent protection… if the protection is merely adequate when the item is new, it could well be that over time (and particularly if the port is subjected to near-max current loads, meaning lots of heat) the OCP will be less and less effective, until the point that the USB controller in question gives up the ghost.

            I’m sure that somewhere (dozens of somewheres!), someone calculated the added warranty costs vs. the savings of not providing adequate protection and came up with it being cheaper to skip it… that is, if the damage to the reputation of the company in question has no value.

            Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.3 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

            • #168531 Reply

              Cascadian
              AskWoody Lounger

              Many tech reputations remain high. Simply convince the user that they used the tech incorrectly. Divert from the idea that marketing may have created a feature that is not supported by the hardware. Without learning a better way to use the hardware, the user will likely repeat the error again. But that is OK for the reputation, because the user will blame themselves again.

            • #168557 Reply

              anonymous

              There are now Analog Devices USB optoisolator chips but they are expensive and may not yet exist for high speed USB. Some kind protection should have been added to the later specifications, but maybe they were not expecting the possible misuses of the technology. (It is not possible to anticipate every situation.)

        • #167994 Reply

          anonymous

          Ascaris said:
          I have 8 USB ports on the front of my desktop PC (actually in a full tower case), and I am plugging and unplugging things into them constantly.

          With constant use, do you ever find the lever-pins inside USB ports becoming flattened, thus resulting in sudden disconnection (which is probably very bad for USB HDDs over the long run) or even undetectable USB connection ?

          I haven’t found a way to work around this annoying design flaw, except regularly sticking a tweezer into the USB ports to try to lift the pins — & hopefully, not break them via metal fatigue failure in the long run.

          I looked up videos on how to replace USB ports, but since my machine is a laptop & the procedure requires dismantling the plastic chassis before de-soldering & re-soldering, the process doesn’t look fail-safe. Besides, even if I were to manage to procure USB ports, the new ones would have the exact same fatal design.

          • #168545 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody MVP

            With constant use, do you ever find the lever-pins inside USB ports becoming flattened, thus resulting in sudden disconnection (which is probably very bad for USB HDDs over the long run) or even undetectable USB connection ?

            No, I haven’t, but I try to rotate the ports I use (rather than favoring just the most convenient one) to try to even out the wear and tear, particularly on my laptops (I am less concerned about the front panel ports on my desktop, as they are not part of the motherboard at all).  I’ve had cables succumb to excess flexing (presumably), not to mention feline-tooth puncture wounds, but the ports have been okay.

            I haven’t found a way to work around this annoying design flaw,

            I don’t know that it’s a design flaw, per se, as much as a design limitation.  The USB specification includes a minimum number of insertion and removal cycles (1500 for the usual port type); if the device fails to meet that standard, it should not be sold as USB compliant (that would be fraud if done intentionally.  USB is a trademarked term, and advertising a device as USB compliant requires adherence to the USB specification).

            If the port does meet the required number of cycles before failing, the port has simply worn out after having delivered the designed performance.  Every port that has a mechanical connection has a limited service life, and they’re always going to be a compromise between cost and performance.  I have no data in front of me, but I would bet that some study out there has shown that most people will plug/unplug a given device a certain number of times, and the design of the part is based around that.

            Of course the maker of the USB port (or any other connector… I mean the connectors themselves here) could make a more durable item.  A more durable USB port is one of those things that would not add much cost, and would be appealing to many of us who like to keep our stuff longer, but it adds nothing at all in value in the finished product to most consumers, and is thus a bad deal for the maker of the motherboard. Something that adds more cost than value is not usually going to make it into the product.

            It used to be that computers were obsolete so quickly that durability was not much of a concern, but times have changed.  Electronics gear has a much longer useful life now, and the makers of that gear are doing all they can to make sure our stuff breaks sooner than it otherwise would, so they’re more likely to specify cheaper components, not more durable ones.  We’re expected to throw away $500 smartphones in two years (and many do!)  Microsoft is selling a “premium” laptop for $1000+ that cannot be opened without destroying it, because it’s welded together.  The “luxury” brand Microsoft is trying to compete with and copy (Apple, of course) has also made a point of making its devices less repairable and durable than they could be, and they still charge (and receive) top dollar for them.

            I think any other port that got used as much as USB… whether it be Firewire, DisplayPort, HDMI, eSATA, SD, MicroSD, DVI, VGA, etc., would wear out just the same.  DVI and USB are both nominally rated for 1500 insertion/removal cycles, but actually hitting that limit is far more likely to happen with USB than DVI.

            Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.3 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

        • #167995 Reply

          anonymous

          The primary complaint over all these years has been the inconvenience of having to make sure the plug was oriented the right way, which has been addressed with the USB Type C specification.

          Why is paying attention to how you are supposed to do something an inconvenience?

          However I can see the merit of having a double-sided connector, especially with devices that have short cables. :/

          • #168019 Reply

            Cybertooth
            AskWoody Lounger

            PCs and their USB ports are not always placed such that you can see at a glance, from where you’re sitting, which way the plug has to go in. For space reasons, my wife’s computer sits in the corner of her office, between her desk and a bookcase. Reaching behind the computer to plug the backup battery, USB keyboard and USB mouse connectors back in after dusting the inside of the case, is a [pain]: in theory you have a 50% chance of getting it right on the first try, but in practice it feels more like 15%. Grrrrr!!!

            It’s hard to believe it took the electrical engineers two decades to come up with a bidirectional plug design that would JUST GO IN whichever way you held it.

            2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #168098 Reply

            anonymous

            It is an “inconvenience” because the laptop ports are always facing away from you it seems and as one is sitting and has the USB in their hands, they go to plug it in and it is wrong.  Or, you go to plug in a USB stick in the dark and you have to get up, turn on the lights or go get a flashlight to see why it won’t’ fit!  Furthermore WHY did the makers have the plastic block be black in a black laptop or desktop case?  Why not a color that is easily seen? I read a joke a guy said which  -really seems to be true- about USB devices.  It went like this, “you go to plug in a USB stick and it does not fit, so you flip it over and it does not fit, you flip it over again and it fits.”  Yes this has happened to me.

             

            flashlight

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #168161 Reply

              anonymous

              Clear plastic back-lit with an led would help, for ports on the front or side. The choice of black plastic might be cheaper and it is probably because of style reasons.

              Okay I sometimes play the USB connector lottery too, especially when trying to connect a device on the back of a desktop computer.  Chances are you’ll either have to fumble around in the dark or guess a little less with the USB-C cable as well. I haven’t much of a clue why it too them so long to create a double sided cable.

    • #167845 Reply

      anonymous

      Been dealing with this on several machines today.  I uninstalled the update, reboot (Which resolves the issue) then I re-apply the update, reboot and the USB devices work normally.  It seems to effect random PCs.  I see it more with USB devices that require 3rd party drivers.

       

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #167876 Reply

      anonymous

      There seems to be confusion of an MSI hardware device inside MSI laptop and a file format used by the Windows certutil program. In this MSI EPF device flashing manual (PDF file) it shows a laptop being used with a USB hub. Here is the documentation for Unified Write Filter.

      Sorry, I can only vaguely guess at what really happened to those users. One of my guesses is it looks like USB driver filtering is being broken with the update?

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #167919 Reply

      PKCano
      AskWoody MVP

      I installed Win10 1709 Build 16299.248 (KB4074588) this afternoon in a VM.Everything seems to be working OK. But then, this is in a VM, not on hardware.

    • #167964 Reply

      anonymous

      Microsoft employee here – I am sorry you hare experiencing problems with USB after installing the updates.  Would it be possible for you to use these instructions and provide us with the necessary log to analyze the bug?  We will try to get to the bottom of the issue as soon as possible.

      Thank you.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #168035 Reply

        Jan K.
        AskWoody Lounger

        I can’t help wondering, why any of the 1892 data collecting points Microsoft telemetri is harvesting, wouldn’t be of more use to solve the problem?

        4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #168057 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        Why would a Microsoft employee post something anonymously?

        If he won’t put a name to his post, then I don’t rely on the “Microsoft” part in his self description.

        The URL he linked to (aka.ms) does appear to be a legitimate Microsoft URL when you do a Whois search on it.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #168548 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        That aka.ms domain rang alarm bells when I saw it, but I looked into it, and apparently it is a URL shortening service used internally by MS. Whois reveals that it the domain is owned by Microsoft, and there are references to it as being real on microsoft.com.

        URL shorteners are convenient, but are also a good way for those with less than honorable intent to get people to go to sites they normally wouldn’t, since the real URL is obscured until you’re there.  I treat shortened URLs as suspicious; I won’t follow such a link if I am not sure of the source.

         

        Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.3 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

        • #169237 Reply

          anonymous

          I use unfurlr.com to find out the URL to which a shortened URL ultimately redirects.

      • #169505 Reply

        AlexEiffel
        AskWoody MVP

        Wow, I am very happy to see a Microsoft employee here trying to fix issues.

        So many of us loves Windows and would like it to be as good as it once was from a user experience point of view, but with the important advances in technology integrated.

        You probably can’t enlighten us on what Microsoft is doing with 10 and how they perceive the whole situation with it, if they think or not they are loosing the sympathy of many power users, but I am glad at least you try to make Windows better and hopefully, spending a bit of time here you could see other interesting things.

        Please fix the search filter issue in Cortana. If you move special folders to a different partition, Cortana won’t find any document in the general results page. You need to go to filter, then select document (or folder if you are looking for a folder) to find them. I can’t believe it hasn’t been fixed, but I am still on 1607. My 1703 has been pushed, but I keep putting my PC to sleep because there is no day I feel like going through a feature update tonight and check all those settings again.

    • #167982 Reply

      anonymous

      I have a client machine on my bench with no USB mouse or Keyboard.  Luckily it has PS2 ports and I can work with it.  Now that I’ve seen this I’ll uninstall the KB and see what happens. 
      Booting to safe mode does not help.  Have already tried multiple times to remove them from device manager and they return with the same triangle error.  It says: the drivers for this device are not installed.  (code28)  There are no compatible drivers for this device.  It shows the update installed on the 13th but the issue didn’t show until this morning (16th). Likely because of a reboot last night. 
      Have identical machines at same office without the issue.

      Thanks for the heads up!

      • #168632 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        What happened when you uninstalled?

        • #168946 Reply

          anonymous

          After I uninstalled the patch — the mouse and keyboard came back ok.  Almost immediately it reinstalled the KB4074588.  It seemed to work ok.  So I ran a double check on everything else to make sure no other problems.  Came up all clean.

          But now it has a startup issue.  It boots to the logon screen quickly even from a full stop.  Once you enter credentials it takes 5 to 10 minutes for everything to load and have full access.  Can’t even get to task manager to see what’s going on until 7 or 8 minutes in.  Once it fully loads everything all processes are quiet and it works fine.  So as long as we don’t have to reboot for some reason — it’s functional.

          This machine and it’s identical neighbors on the same network, usually boot up in less than 2 minutes.  It’s a newer Lenovo with SSD and plenty of ram.  Thinking I may need to restore back to a point prior to the first install of this buggy patch and turn off updates for a while.

          Any suggestions????

    • #168000 Reply

      anonymous

      Incidentally, KB 4074592: Win 10 v1703 (OS Build 15063.909) also contains the USB fix (quoted below) that might instead be poison to some USB devices:

      https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4074592/windows-10-update-kb4074592
      “Addresses issue where booting with Unified Write Filter (UWF) turned on may lead to stop error 0xE1 in embedded devices, particularly when using a USB HUB.”

      And in other news … the said KB 4074592 has reportedly caused BSODs under certain working conditions:

      https://forums.sandboxie.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=25448
      We are seeing BSODs with Windows 10 x86 1703 + KB 4074592 when launching Internet Explorer or closing Firefox in the Sandbox. This affects Sandboxie 5.22 as well as the betas 5.23.x. Devs are currently investigating.

    • #168037 Reply

      Carl D
      AskWoody Lounger

      Not sure if this has anything to do with the problem but I’ll just throw this into the mix.

      Some years back a friend was suddenly having problems with none of his USB devices being recognized by his PC. Rebooting didn’t fix it, neither did shutting down the PC then starting it up again. Even restoring a Ghost image (which he was using at the time) made no difference.

      After a bit of  “Googling” I found that what we had to do was shut down the PC then disconnect it from the wall socket (turning off the switch which is usually on the PC power supply probably would do the same thing) so the motherboard is completely ‘powered down’, leave it off for a couple of minutes then turn the wall switch back on and start up the PC. After that all USB devices worked properly again.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #168107 Reply

        anonymous

        Hello CarlD, Yes sometimes the motherboard has to be fully powered down (no power at all). Having a desktop on a UPS (the switched circuit) or Surge protector with a power switch is great for this. I remember years ago a guy said we needed a new CD ROM drive at work. I said “did you shut it down totally?” He said “we rebooted about 3 times.”  I said “no, did you Shut It Down as in OFF?” He said, “no but we rebooted 3 times”.  I had Windows Shut Down. This was a old PC that actually went off or dead when powered down.  Upon the fresh start, the POST saw the CD-ROM and when Windows was loaded the CD-ROM was seen and functioning normally.

        I also have seen people be forced to remove the laptop battery from the laptop to make a problem go away.

         

    • #168675 Reply

      rhherren
      AskWoody Lounger

      Same issue here for us.  Our team is having reports of USB devices not working after the login screen. The devices work fine in BIOS.

      Still no fix yet here for us.

       

    • #168681 Reply

      anonymous

      Confimed. HP Prodesk 600 G3 SFF machine Windows 10 Professional x64.

      User lost KB & Mouse. I didn’t suspect the update b/c it was installed on 2/13 and user didn’t experience issue until 2/18. Perhaps he had been postponing the reboot all that time. I am not sure.

      In any case, once I removed KB4074588  KB & Mouse started working. We support hundreds of Win 10 machines. Anxious to see if we run into this more.

       

    • #168683 Reply

      jrodfoo
      AskWoody Lounger

      Stumbled across this article searching for this USB issue.   I had use of my USB items but they were not totally working as normal. I could not control my sound from the volume buttons on my creative speakers that use a USB dongle.   The sound was choppy as well when playing music.  I had a bunch of items under “other devices” in the device manager as well such as my Logitech wireless headset.  Again, it was working but crackling sound and I had no controls working from the headset.

      I just uninstalled the update and we’re back to normal.   Any tips for re-installing the update so it installs successfully?  The update is ready to be installed again as it was downloaded and awaiting restart.

    • #168708 Reply

      jrodfoo
      AskWoody Lounger

      I just shut down the PC and rebooted and it installed the update this time with no issues. All USB devices working properly.

    • #168748 Reply

      anonymous

      You know, having USB devices listed under “Other devices” sounds like an issue I saw the other day where Windows 10’s built-in drivers for mice was simply uninstalled: C:\Windows\inf\input.inf is missing, and appropriate C:\Windows\System32\drivers\*.sys files may or may not be present. As far as I can recall, solution was:

      1. Reboot with driver signature enforcement disabled.

      2. Take the appropriate .inf and .sys files from a working machine or a Windows disc, stuff them all in one directory, doesn’t matter what.

      3. Go to the bad device in Device Manager, tell it to update the driver, and point it at the directory with the .inf and .sys files.

      4. Reboot again.

      …I am kind of wondering if this has anything to do with acpi.sys getting uninstalled in a somewhat similar way (rendering the system unbootable), also due to KB4074588, as seen here.

    • #168751 Reply

      anonymous

      As I posted on bleepingcomputer:

      The windows update last Tuesday has been causing issues with the mouse and keyboards drop off.

      If we unplug the mouse or keyboard and plug it in it appears to install BUT they do not.  They show up as other devices.

      We have tried all the usual suggestions.  Uninstalling the USB hub and the devices and the same issue the mouse and keyboard will not install.

      We have turned off USB sleep have tried various BIOS settings.

      We have done rollbacks that work but a few days later the issue has come back.

      When we try to manually reinstall the mouse and KB; windows states NO DRIVERS FOUND.  The devices show as unknown devices with the right names wired dell keyboard and HID compliant mouse.

      As a workaround we have the device drivers in a separate folder and we can manually update the mouse and KB that  that way.  BUT if the user moves the mouse or KB to another port we would have to do the manual install again.

      Mouse and KB are the only items being affected.  Printers are not and other USB devices.

      We see that some of the HID sys files have been recently updated like HIDparse.sys and hidclass.sys. These files had been the same for years prior to the recent updates.

      Anyone else seen this issue and any solutions?  I assume this is a Microsoft bug that wasn’t caught during insight testing.

      • #168754 Reply

        PKCano
        AskWoody MVP

        With which version of Windows are you having this problem? What update(s) did you install?

      • #168766 Reply

        anonymous

        Maybe try rebooting with driver signature enforcement disabled (Start -> Power button -> hold the Shift key and click Restart -> Choose an option -> Troubleshoot -> Advanced options -> Startup Settings -> Restart -> Hit ‘7’ on the keyboard for “Disable driver signature enforcement”), and see if USB hotplugging comes back?

        Just a thought.

      • #168768 Reply

        anonymous

         

        Hello Irodfoo and Anon #168751. PKC is right in asking what OS and what update KB numbers.

        These appear to be Windows 10 computers but can we have exact version numbers?  Also, are these AMD or Intel CPU computers? Can we please have; OS, bit, CPU, and maybe Video (nvidia, ati, intel, etc.)

        • #168798 Reply

          jrodfoo
          AskWoody Lounger

          Sorry been away from a PC all evening.

          It was  KB 4074588 that caused the issue for me.  All good now after uninstalling/reinstalling update.  Windows 10 1709 (Home)  AMD  here and nvidia graphics

          • This reply was modified 8 months, 4 weeks ago by  jrodfoo.
          • This reply was modified 8 months, 4 weeks ago by  jrodfoo.
          • This reply was modified 8 months, 4 weeks ago by  jrodfoo.
        • #168794 Reply

          anonymous

          Dell XPS8900 – Win 10 patched and once USB devices are disconnected they are no longer recognized when plugging into any USB port.  USB KB and mouse work fine when booting into BIOS.  Attempts to boot from Win10 DVD and revert to a restore point are not working.  Resetting BIOS to Factory Settings did nothing (thinking it was a Dell patch issue).  Also, can’t seem to Safemode into C command prompt.  I get the X drive prompt so I can’t rename WindowsApps and get past 0x80070091 error.  Can’t cd to C. id=”threadQuestionTitleStatusIconsENUS” class=”x-hidden-focus”

          Once you lose USB and your KB, there is almost no way to recover barring refreshing the OS from the DVD.  All these recommendations in the thread assume you can still use your KB within the OS to turn off settings or to get into the Device Manager.  Thanks Microsoft.

          EDIT html to text – may not appear as intended

    • #168780 Reply

      anonymous

      Happened to me. Sabotaged keyboard, mouse and HTC Vive. Security Update is rolled back and everything working again.
      Thanks for posting this. Really was crazy.
      Specs: AMD, Windows 10, Gigabyte HT3.0 motherboard. Now, to keep Windows from updating.

    • #168801 Reply

      anonymous

      FIXED FIXED FIXED

      Reboot 1st before trying these methods. Some methods may have to be performed remotely because your USB ports aren’t working. Method 4 is the method for when nothing else can be done.

      Method 1:

      Windows Key + R
      appwiz.cpl
      View installed updates
      Look for update KB4074588 (OS Build 16299.248)
      Right Click it. Uninstall it. DO NOT REBOOT YET.
      Windows Key + R
      ms-settings:
      Click OK
      Click Windows Update
      Scroll way down to the bottom
      There are possibly 3 options
      Change them all to the max number of days
      365 days for top option
      30 days for security updates option
      Pause updates (slider bar to turn it on)
      Reboot

      Method 2: (if Method 1 does not work)
      Windows Key + R
      rstrui
      Click OK
      Restore to a date before the Windows Update
      Windows Key + R
      ms-settings:
      Click OK
      Click Windows Update
      Scroll way down to the bottom
      There are possibly 3 options
      Change them all to the max number of days
      365 days for top option
      30 days for security updates option
      Pause updates (slider bar to turn it on)
      Reboot

      Method 3: (if Method 1 or 2 doesn’t appeal or work)
      Windows Key
      cmd  (just type cmd without thinking and the following will happen)
      Command Prompt will become visible (Right Click it and choose Run As Administrator)
      dism /online /remove-package /packagename:Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~16299.248.1.17
      Press Enter (Return)
      It will ask you to reboot ANSWER NO for now.
      Windows Key + R
      ms-settings:
      Click OK
      Click Windows Update
      Scroll way down to the bottom
      There are possibly 3 options
      Change them all to the max number of days
      365 days for top option
      30 days for security updates option
      Pause updates (slider bar to turn it on)
      Reboot

      Method 4: (last resort if all else fails)
      Crash the computer a few times on purpose
      Get to the Windows Automatic Repair screen
      Advanced options
      Command Prompt
      dism /online /remove-package /packagename:Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~16299.248.1.17
      Press Enter (Return)
      It will ask you to reboot ANSWER Yes
      After reboot, you may have to remove the update again using Method 1

      This is almost the same fix for INACCESSIBLE BOOT DEVICE from another package name Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~16299.214.1.17 as well and January issues from another package Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~16299.192.1.9 Use these using Method 4 and substitute these package names for the one listed in Method 4.

      There have been an instance that repeats the issue another user had called STOP 0xc000021a where a system restore caused this issue. I think that was caused by running a system restore PRIOR to a completion of a successful patch update. That’s why the reboot first option is best.

      None of this is recommended by Microsoft for Security purposes
      All of it is recommended by MILE Technologies (us) for functionality and business continuity.

      -miletx.com

    • #168853 Reply

      anonymous

      I’ve found that it’s not just KB4074588 that’s creating the issue. In our environment the January Cumulative Update for 1703 (KB4056891) has disabled USB input as well…at least on the current gen Surface Pro (and dock).

      See this article for ref: http://forum.martin.com/t/warning-windows-security-update-kb405689-blocks-m-pc-output/4003

    • #168825 Reply

      anonymous

      Hi,

      I had to uninstall KB 4074588 to get my mouse back. Hope Microsoft comes back with a solution soon.

    • #168878 Reply

      anonymous

      What we do is remote into the PC, since the keyboard is non functioning.

      We copy a folder containing the ini and sys files in it for:  (We have found that having only the ini present will also work)

      HDC

      HIDCLASS

      INTEL® 100 SERIES CHIPSET – USED ON OUR DELLS

      KEYBOARD

      MOUSE

      USB

      The we go into device manager and update the driver, from the folder we copied over, for keyboard and for the mice under other devices.

      Windows will then install the drivers and the mouse and keyboard are back and working.

      This is much quicker than doing the rollback or trying the rollback and not having it work.

      And hopefully Microsoft addresses this as it is apparent this is a major bug.

      • #170231 Reply

        anonymous

        Could you please explain more in detail which folder you mean?

        It doesnt helps us if you dont tell us which ini and sys files and which folder you mean.

        Thanks

    • #168837 Reply

      anonymous

      So I have an other issue with the KB 4074588. When I install it via Windows Update, after the reboot the system wil run for like 2 minutes and then it will shutdown and doing a hard reset. After deinstalling the KB 4074588 the machine will run again.
      But I didn’t get any mouse problems at all with this update.

      edit to remove HTML

    • #169015 Reply

      anonymous

      from recovery console

      c:

      md mns

      Dism /image:c:\ /remove-package /packagename:Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~16299.248.1.17 /norestart /scratchdir:c:\mns

      reboot

    • #169024 Reply

      anonymous

      Has anyone heard if at least Microsoft has recognized the USB bug and HID devices?

    • #169070 Reply

      anonymous

      Uninstalling KB 4074588 worked for me.  I had to RDP into my system, uninstall the patch and then reboot.  Keyboard was not functioning with Device Manager reporting no suitable driver was found.  In the process, I also broke my mouse.  Now, both are working.

      Microsoft needs to pull that patch back immediately!

      EDIT html to text (copy>paste…)

    • #169133 Reply

      anonymous

      Hello everyone

      I used a workaround to get the keyboard/mouse functioning again without uninstalling the KB 4074588. Go into the Device-Manager and select manual driver update of the problematic device, then use the following path a source for the driverlocation: “%windir%\WinSxS”. After a few minutes the wizard installs a compatible HID-driver and the device works again. This workaround is reboot/shutdown/userswitch persistent and works now for me since at least 24h.

      Regards

      Lukas

      • #169187 Reply

        DaJudge
        AskWoody Lounger

        Lukas… How can I try your solution if I can’t get into my computer?  My Mouse and Keyboard are dead due to the non-functioning USB ports.     Am I missing something?

        • #169435 Reply

          anonymous

          Hello DaJudge

          From my viewpoint, you have to resort to only two ways to implement my described workaround on your system :

          1.Use a PS/2-Mouse/Keyboard or a USB to PS/2-Adapter. Of course you can only plug the PS/2 Cable or Adapter in, if you have such a PS/2-Port on your mainboard.

          2.Use a remote-connection like RDP or VNC. If you have your affected system configured before (for a home user usually not the case) the USB-Problem occured, you can establish a remote-connection from a healthy system and implement the workaround.

          If you can not implement one of these two access methods, you must look for another workaround or solution to the USB-Problem.

          Regards

          Lukas

      • #169190 Reply

        anonymous

        +1 to Lukas’ suggestion in 169133.

        This worked for me too, thanks.

      • #169940 Reply

        anonymous

        Lukas, You’re a genius!!  I can’t believe it, but it worked.  🙂

        • #170053 Reply

          anonymous

          +1 This solution worked on my Lenovo originally on Win10 with an Targus USB wired optical mouse. It took about 4 minutes after entering that path but it worked! Lukas, you the man!

      • #169990 Reply

        anonymous

        Lukas, you are my hero. Found your solution after three days of going crazy in not being able to fix the Problem! Thaks so much.

        Greetings from Switzerland. JB

      • #170654 Reply

        anonymous

        Thank god! I’ve been searching and doing everything for 3 days! And it ended with this simple resolution! I can’t thank you enough. Lucas!

      • #171124 Reply

        anonymous

        Lukas, that worked for me as well … pointing Windows to update its drivers from the WinSXS folder. Why Microsoft doesn’t know where to pull drivers from is beyond my understanding. But that allowed my keyboard to once again begin working. I spent 2 full days messing with this to no avail and my nephew showed me where to tell Windows to get the driver and in seconds, it started working.

      • #171301 Reply

        anonymous

        Hi Lukas,

        Thanks so much for your solution. It worked fine on my Acer E5-575 laptop.

        Regards

        Axel

    • #169185 Reply

      DaJudge
      AskWoody Lounger

      I think I’m a victim of the KB 4074588 update.  My USB Mouse and Keyboard stopped working on 2/19.  I’ve been following this thread but I’m not as computer savvy as most of you on this board.   I see some proposed solutions but I how can I try to implement them if I have no way of getting on my computer since both my keyboard and mouse are not functioning?   If anyone could post some “Dummies” instructions I could try they would be very much appreciated.   Thanks!

      • #169329 Reply

        anonymous

        Hi DaJudge and any other frustrated reader who may come this far. Please see anonymous way up at the top of this topic, from a few minutes earlier.

        Or more extensive directions for more stubborn problems.

        I myself have not had the USB failure described on this page. So if my references do not help, I apologize.

        s/ Cascadian

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #169864 Reply

          Cascadian
          AskWoody Lounger

          Wanted to add another reference from the experience of Patch Lady. I believe this is along the same lines:

          https://www.askwoody.com/2018/patch-lady_inaccessible_boot_device_error

          Sometimes another writer helps show a key piece of information. For this topic of course the important bit is to stop the boot process before the Windows session cuts of your access to user input devices, so that you can, you know, input changes.

    • #169432 Reply

      anonymous

      I found this problem (keyboard and mouse not working) on three Windows 10 PCs that have Norton Security (versions 2018 and Endpoint Protection Small Business Edition) and installed.
      Luckily I managed to uninstall the KB 4074588 update by remotely connecting to these PCs (I always install a remote support software on the PCs that I support).
      One of the PCs has two PS/2 mouse and keyboard ports, so I also got access into Windows by connecting old PS/2 mouse and keyboard, but another PC had only one PS/2 port and the third no PS/2 ports, so maybe in these cases you could try the solution proposed in reply
      #169015 (above).
      I am wondering if this problem is due to a bug in the Norton Security software…

      Regards
      Giovanni

    • #169477 Reply

      rhherren
      AskWoody Lounger

      Really the only ‘fix’ we’ve been able to implement on the computers we support is by restarting the computer and interrupting the startup a few times. This hopefully gets the computer to the Advanced Repair screen. Then we just roll it back to a previous Restore Point. Something before the Feb 13th date to be exact. This has worked on a majority of the computers we have had reports on. Around 20+ of these have been reported to us so far. Once the computer is back up, we have it reinstall any available updates. The 2nd time it installs, it hasn’t disabled the USB ports yet…..yet.

      The issue for us has been when the computer has no restore points. For that, we have to use Reset my PC.

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #169583 Reply

        anonymous

        RHHerren is right. Unless you put the boot menu back, you will have to press the power button during start and after 3 times the menu should appear.

        https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/2294-boot-advanced-startup-options-windows-10-a.html see #6, or put the menu back with BCDEdit.

        https://neosmart.net/wiki/bcdedit/

         

        • This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by  PKCano.
        • This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by  woody.
      • #169705 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        At the risk of saying “toldja so,” I bet that the new 1709 cumulative update, likely being released in the next few hours, won’t have the same problem.

        Yet another good reason to wait before applying Windows patches!

        That said, thanks for lending a hand to those who got bit.

      • #170078 Reply

        anonymous

        “Shut your computer down wrong 3 times on purpose, the new replacement for the F8 (disabled by default) key”
        What a stupid idea microsoft…

    • #169492 Reply

      anonymous

      Anyone heard if Microsoft is working on a fix?

      -Mark-

      • #169706 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        As mentioned in the Computerworld article, Microsoft has reached out, here on AskWoody, for help in identifying the source of the problem. You can bet yer bottom dime that they’re working furiously on a fix.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #169536 Reply

      anonymous

      Anonymous visitor here. I experienced this disaster on my desktop, which is running Windows 10 Pro 64-bit on system based upon an AMD 990FX chipset and FX8350 CPU. I lost USB keyboard & mouse, USB connections to development tools, etc. I rebooted and diverted into BIOS, where the USB keyboard and mouse worked just fine. I had an old PS2 keyboard, with which I could (sort of) navigate once back into Windows. In Device Manager, I could see the USB devices marked with an exclamation point. Checking each one showed ‘no driver installed’. I attempted to update the drivers, and was told that no driver could be located (anywhere).

      I tried rolling back the update – no luck. I tried going back to an older restore point – no luck. I tried to let Windows repair itself – no luck. To make a long story short, I yanked the hard drive out of the system and connected to a SATA-to-USB bridge, and connected the drive as a slave on my laptop. Once I have made sure that I pulled off all of the critical data, I will reinstall the drive in the desktop, do a low-level reformat, and do a fresh install of Windows 10. Then I will spend days trying to install all of my apps and get the system back to usability.

      I would like to charge Microsoft for the incredible inconvenience of this disaster. They should be MUCH more careful with their ‘updates’.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #169581 Reply

        anonymous

        Send the bill to Microsoft! If a woman can sue MS and win 10,000 us dollars (which is like hush money or could be consider by some as an admission of guilt and/or negligence) why can’t you?

    • #169687 Reply

      anonymous

      After installing KB 4074588 my Dell KM636 wireless keyboard and mouse were not recognized by the device manager. Msg was… The drivers for this device were not loaded. Or usb controller is in a failed state or not currently installed.

      I updated BIOS, drivers from Dell, rebooted at least 20 times and nothing. Decided to uninstall the above mentioned Windows updates and after the next reboot, every thing was working.

      • #169774 Reply

        anonymous

        As a followup to my issues with KB 4074588, the only way to access my PC (obviously because mouse and keyboard were not working) to try a hundred different things and uninstall the update was thru remote desktop from another PC on our network, RDP loads its own drivers for mouse and keyboard functionality that were not effected by the WinUpdate…so hopefully you have RDP already enabled on the problem PC. Our issue was with the wireless mouse/keyboard but even a wired mouse and keyboard would not work either.

        Kerry

    • #169694 Reply

      SkipH
      AskWoody Lounger

      RHHerren is right. Unless you put the boot menu back, you will have to press the power button during start and after 3 times the menu should appear. https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/2294-boot-advanced-startup-options-windows-10-a.html see #6, or put the menu back with BCDEdit. https://neosmart.net/wiki/bcdedit/

      The link you posted to TenForums.com just goes to the main web site, not into any sub-forum on tutorials, etc.

      Can you please re-post the link, and see that it leads to the correct tutorial.

      Thanks

    • #169707 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      Looks like the link has been fixed. Thanks to the mods!

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #169835 Reply

      rlpcdr
      AskWoody Lounger

      A quick update.  I posted anonymous on several posts earlier.  Now have a second machine at the same client with same issue.  Was able to get the first one working over last weekend but it takes forever (like 10 minutes after entering logon credentials) to fully boot after the reinstall of the patch.

      The second one showed up today — no mouse no keyboard.  Same office — different machine.  Was able to uninstall KB4074588 and then before reboot pause the updates.  Hope Microsoft gets their act together soon……..

    • #169875 Reply

      MrBrian
      AskWoody MVP
      • #173149 Reply

        MrBrian
        AskWoody MVP

        This article was updated on March 6.

    • #170153 Reply

      anonymous

      I had the same problem of my USB mouse and keyboard not working.  uninstalling KB 4074588fixed it on my Dell Latitude E6410.

      Thanks

    • #170215 Reply

      Sueska
      AskWoody Lounger

      Safe Mode appears to be out of vogue, but I have had many successes using Safe Mode with Windows 8.1 and Windows 10.  I can’t verify, since I did not personally have this USB issue, but I would think that generic drivers should have worked in Safe Mode. Of course you must know how to get into Safe Mode (like powering up and shutting down forcefully 3 times and knowing which repair options to select). Once you are in Safe Mode you have several possible ways to recover. Uninstall the offending update, restore to a previous restore point, use Lucas’ method, etc. Yes, I know that there are easier command line methods and repair options. But if I can help a non-savvy computer user get into Safe Mode, I feel I am putting them in a more familiar environment where it is easier for them to understand instructions and possibly enable them to resolve problems on their own.

      So why was the F8 option removed? My understanding was that starting with Windows 8, Microsoft felt that average computer user got themselves into too much trouble trying to recover from problems. Consequently, F8 was thought to not be needed, Windows could self-repair or present the end user with the best recovery option. In the beginning with Windows 8, I trusted Microsoft and followed the Refresh or Reset options that were recommended at that time. I quickly learned that both options had painful consequences. When I investigated why Refresh or Reset was being recommended (instead of system restore or other repair options) the answer was “It gets you up and running fast”.

      It appears that Microsoft believes that the Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 operating systems are smart enough to fix their own problems, but most end users are not. I believe that Safe Mode and the other F8 options are useful recovery tools, yes even for your average user. When the tools are readily available, an average user can occasionally be successful. And when they are not successful, they can always fall back on Refresh and more aggressive recovery methods.

       

      • This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by  Sueska.
      • #170239 Reply

        anonymous

        Unfortunately the USB ports weren’t working in safe mode either on the computers we’ve had to service. We used Restore Points on Advanced Repair if they were available.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #170237 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m seeing sporadic reports of this month’s Win10 version 1709 cumulative update, KB 4074588, causing problems with USB-attached devices.

      Can anybody out there confirm? Any idea what might be at the core of the problem?

      UPDATE: If you’re experiencing this problem, please see this post and help come up with a solution!

      It always amuses me when you ask for help troubleshooting an update which you recommended no one should install. In this case, on a version of Windows 10 that you recommended no one should have installed.

      If you find a security “expert” who tells you to turn on Automatic Updates after all the hassles we had last month, send ‘em to the AskWoody Lounge and we’ll knock ’em upside the head and we’ll ask ’em how to fix stuff that no one there is using.

      I’ve had no problems with 1709 or KB4074588 on more than 100 computers of various makes, models and configurations. Nor have many millions of others who receive Automatic Updates.

      Cannon fodder Daft glutton Idiot Kick Me Sucker More intrepid

      • #170710 Reply

        anonymous

        Hello B, you said, “I’ve had no problems with 1709 or KB4074588 on more than 100 computers of various makes, models and configurations. Nor have many millions of others who receive Automatic Updates.”

        Yes it is true that there are millions of copies of that OS out there and millions that don’t have issues. But with 500 million windows (is that right?) if 1% have troubles, that IS millions of people with an issue.

        On the MS site for KB4074588, it states, “After installing this update, some USB devices and onboard devices, such as a built-in laptop camera, keyboard or mouse, may stop working.  This may occur when the windows update servicing stack incorrectly skips installing the newer version of some critical drivers in the cumulative update and uninstalls the currently active drivers during maintenance.”

        Therefor there must be some sort of problem since they mentioned it.

        Woody even commented that there were 6 cumulative patches for 1709 in 2 months (is it 7 now? I don’t use windows 10), so there is a stability or reliability issue for some.

        While your 100+ computers are running great with no issues at all, that is nice. How about giving the majorities computer’s CPU, brand, OS (exact version), antivirus, etc.  for people to try and figure out what is the common denominator. Thank you.

         

         

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #170240 Reply

      anonymous

      What worked for me was to burn a uefi Dart10 boot disk, boot with it, and use the hotfix uninstaller to get rid of all February updates. The other fixes found through Google (dism, or copying a certain folder with patched files to the drivers folders, or doing a system restore to a few days before, or anything else google found) didn’t work.

      If Windows was installed in uefi, the boot disk must boot in uefi for all the offline OS servicing tools to be available.

    • #170261 Reply

      anonymous

      I have this problem and have been on the line all day with Microsoft. My mouse and keyboard are USB. They work under BIOS but not Windows. Microsoft tried to back out the update and that failed. They tried a system restore and that failed. There doesn’t seem to be anything left to do but to go to a repair shop and have the hard drive backed up, wiped, and reloaded. It’s going to cost a couple hundred to do that. Whose going to pay for this?

      • #170276 Reply

        PKCano
        AskWoody MVP

        Read through this topic and another one on KB4074588. there are several workarounds mentioned that you can try before going to a repair shop.

        • #170356 Reply

          anonymous

          It looks like people post questions without reading the replies…

    • #170901 Reply

      anonymous
      • #170927 Reply

        anonymous

        Reminds me of a time I had to use the mouse to hunt down and copy/paste the right letters to run a command to fix the keyboard. (onscreen keyboard would have been a better idea)

      • #170940 Reply

        anonymous

        I boot from the latest version of a win10 iso flash drive; go to command prompt; type in the dism.exe /image…  command.

        I get “Error: 87  The remove-package/packagename option is unknown…”

        Where am I going wrong?

    • #171169 Reply

      anonymous

      For those experiencing this, what happens if you remove the “errored” device from the device manager, the do a rescan? What if you plug a different USB keyboard into an different port and that new device is freshly detected?

    • #172610 Reply

      MrBrian
      AskWoody MVP

      From March 5, 2018—KB4090913 (OS Build 16299.251): “Addresses an issue in which some USB devices and onboard devices, such as a built-in laptop camera, keyboard, or mouse, stop working. This may occur when the Windows Update servicing stack incorrectly skips installing the newer version of some critical drivers in the cumulative update and uninstalls the currently active drivers during maintenance.”

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      b
    • #173216 Reply

      anonymous

      I have Windows 10 running with Office 2010 Home Business 14.0.7015.1000.  The Feb 2018 Cumulative Windows update blew away keyboard and touchscreen.  Some Microsoft Virtual Chat screen clearly still practising its skills stated that Office 2010 is not supported by Microsoft anymore.  Initial advice from Norton suggested restarting which meant I couldn’t put in my password and bluescreened.  Eventually, Norton helped me do a system restore via my separate laptop (four hours!) even though it wasn’t their problem. Now Windows want to install the KB4090913 patch to undo the USB issues on the original update.  Would advice be to go back and install the Cumulative update and then the patch, or just ignore them both?  Also, how exactly do I stop automatic updates beyond a few days please?  I have good security through Norton and I’m beginning not to want any more Windows updates …  thank you for any help – great website.

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

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