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  • Report: Win10 users being pushed onto 1709 even if they have Feature Updates deferred

    Posted on March 8th, 2018 at 11:31 woody Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    UPDATE: See Computerworld Woody on Windows.

     

     

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    Home Forums Report: Win10 users being pushed onto 1709 even if they have Feature Updates deferred

    This topic contains 132 replies, has 37 voices, and was last updated by  anonymous 4 months, 1 week ago.

    • Author
      Posts
    • #173446 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      I’m trying to get more information from @juzuo, but if the report proves true, it’s very troubling. @juzuo says: https://twitter.com/juzuo/status/9717
      [See the full post at: Report: Win10 users being pushed onto 1709 even if they have Feature Updates deferred]

    • #173453 Reply

      FakeNinja
      AskWoody Lounger

      So Microsoft claim they can’t patch older versions of Windows 10 when they are doing exactly that with Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB?

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #173462 Reply

      bobcat5536
      AskWoody Lounger

      This happened to me last night. In the past I’ve been updated to the next feature update always through WU. This time WU checked like always and it said I was up to date. About 30 minutes later, a box pops on my screen and informs me that there are security updates available and that it needs to update to latest version of Windows 10 to be able to install them and then starts the update. I have Dell XPS8900 with version 1703 and when the update finished, I had version 1709, but no sound, no color ( everything black and white ), reinstall software notifications and errors saying certain shortcut keys are not available. I had pause on for 35 days enabled and 365 days set on feature updates. After restoring an image and disabling WU service, the forced update began to update all over again !!! The first time it came on I didn’t catch it until it was 80% done and had to let it finish. The second time it popped up, I killed it before it got started. If all of settings are set to defer and update service is turned off, it would seem that this update was directly downloaded and didn’t update through WU. If this is the case, how do you stop something like that ?

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #173557 Reply

        anonymous

        If you are going to disable Windows update you must also disable Update Orchestrator and Bits service otherwise WU will activate itself

        For those having problems with that Upgrade App go to Task schelduler and delete or disable the Upgrade assistant task.

        • #173641 Reply

          anonymous

          I can’t find it in the task scheduler…maybe it’s because I have uninstalled it, and should wait until it pops back up again to disable it?

    • #173461 Reply

      anonymous

      I, unfortunately, installed KB4023057, KB4023814 and KB4056254 in my February 2018 patching. And I’m getting the upgrade to the latest version of Windows 10 notification popping up every time I reboot AND it occasionally pops back again a couple of minutes after I uninstall “Windows 10 Update Assistant” program from “Programs and Features”.

      Since discovering these updates as the culprit, I have uninstalled KB4023057 from the “installed updates” screen, and hid it using the wushowhide tool. However, neither KB4023814 or KB4056254 show up on the list of installed updates, so I don’t know how to uninstall them… (Even when I was also able to, somehow, see KB4023814 in the wushowhide tool when I wanted to hide KB4023057, so I hid both. But the “Windows 10 Update Assistant” program is still automatically reinstalled back on my system every time I uninstall it. Would someone know how to uninstall KB4023814 or KB4056254?

      • #173485 Reply

        BobbyB
        AskWoody Lounger

        @anonymous if you having trouble getting those packages out in Win10 GUI you could always use @Noel’s Method https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/2000009-getting-out-of-a-no-boot-situation-after-installing-windows-updates/#post-166588 just however you normally get to the recovery enviroment, you dont have to run the BCD CMD’s that’s for future convienience.

        to get to WINRE from the start just look around the options for the CMD prompt typically with “X:\”

        Or you can create a BOOT Media, USB etc and use this method outlined https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/2000009-getting-out-of-a-no-boot-situation-after-installing-windows-updates/#post-166588

        either way or method just type:
        DISKPART
        LIST DISK
        SEL DISK 0 (assuming you have only one HDD\SSD)
        LIST PART
        Note the partition your Windows is on and enter the drive letter accordingly, as in WINRE Windows typically moves the drive letters down one, and run the CMD’s as specified

        • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  BobbyB.
        • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  PKCano.
        • #173616 Reply

          anonymous

          @bobbyb, I looked through Noel’s post you identified, but unfortunately I don’t usually use the cmd functions, so I’m not technically-savvy enough to follow the steps in order to uninstall KB4023814 and KB4056254. I don’t want to inadvertently cause more harm by doing something wrong. Would updates that are not listed in the list of “installed updates” be removable through the cmd.exe? Or would I need to go into the recovery mode first?

          • #173762 Reply

            BobbyB
            AskWoody Lounger

            @anonymous oh absolutely its my preferred method removing the updates through the settings remove updates windows, whilst the CMD prompt doesent hold any trepidation for me, I do like the easier life of point, right click, remove, better. I am no real lover of typing out CMD strings either but sometimes, just lately, you have to dust off those “Ninja” CMD skills and its always handy to know if a patch or two is reluctant to come out. That’s where I figured you where at. In fact that’s where I would have started in “remove updates window” in the first place 🙂

            PS

            Would updates that are not listed in the list of “installed updates” be removable through the cmd.exe?

            sorry about this if you think its not listed in the remove updates another CMD from the desktop\OS wmic qfe list reveals all, and if not drop down as described above to the X:\ prompt and run “dism /get-packages” but wmic qfe list reavels all even the ones M$ installed in “stealth mode” and didn’t tell you about, and it does sometime’s, scarey eh? 🙁

    • #173466 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Lounger

      Force feeding.

      Group G{ot backup} Win7 · x64 · SP1 · i3-3220 · TestBeta
    • #173465 Reply

      anonymous

      I’m Having this problem right now!

    • #173468 Reply

      EyesOnWindows
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m also having this problem right now! Update under way…

      Settings still says delay feature 365 days and 7 days for quality updates.

      DIR /A C:\$GetCurrent

      03/08/2018 07:57 AM <DIR> .
      03/08/2018 07:57 AM <DIR> ..
      03/08/2018 07:56 AM <DIR> Logs
      12/13/2017 11:05 PM <DIR> media
      03/08/2018 07:56 AM <DIR> SafeOS

      Directory of C:\$GetCurrent\media

      12/13/2017 11:05 PM <DIR> .
      12/13/2017 11:05 PM <DIR> ..
      09/28/2017 03:46 PM 128 autorun.inf
      12/13/2017 11:05 PM <DIR> boot
      09/28/2017 09:20 PM 397,752 bootmgr
      09/28/2017 09:42 PM 1,236,376 bootmgr.efi
      12/13/2017 11:05 PM <DIR> efi
      09/28/2017 09:22 PM 80,696 setup.exe
      03/08/2018 07:57 AM <DIR> sources
      12/13/2017 11:05 PM <DIR> support

      See https://ibb.co/hzmiL7 for image of popup. It says:

      [] Windows 10
      Your device needs the latest security updates
      Microsoft can’t install important security updates on your PC until you install the most current version of Windows 10.

      To ensure things go smoothly:
      – Keep your PC plugged in.
      – Don’t turn your PC off or close it.

      We’re doing our work behind the scenes. Feel free to keep working, and we’ll let you know when everything is done.

      6% Downloaded
      =======—————————————————————
      [Learn More] [Hide]

      Learn more links to:
      https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4023814/some-versions-of-windows-10-display-a-notification-to-install-the-late

      Here’s the popup:

      Here’s what Advanced settings shows:

      Here’s my update log:

      HP Compaq 6000 Pro SFF PC / Windows 10 Pro / 1803
      Intel®Core™2 “Wolfdale” E8400 3.0 GHz / 4.00 GB
      EyesOnWindows

      • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  EyesOnWindows.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #173742 Reply

        EyesOnWindows
        AskWoody Lounger

        Well back up and running…
        I let it go ahead and update one it was ready.  I started with 32 GB free which dipped as low as 16 GB free.
        Be aware that if you are away from your computer when the update is ready to run you only have 30 minutes the click on the restart later button!

        I took the computer offline and unplugged the network cable before letting it restart.
        It took a bit over 30 minutes to come back up for air.

        After I logged in these messages were displayed:
        Hi
        We’ve got some updates for your PC
        This might take several minutes
        These updates help protect you in an online world
        We want everything to be ready for you
        (At the bottom of the screen was displayed: Don’t turn off your PC)
        Let’s get started

        The desktop now had an app with a window open:
        |Windows 10 Update Assistant|
        [Exit]

        I was down to 19 GB free.
        The EPSON Scan link I had on my desktop was gone.
        winver said “Version 1709 (OS Build 16299.125)”
        systeminfo reported:
        Hotfix(s):                 5 Hotfix(s) Installed.
        [01]: KB4053577 (shows 3/8/2018 in Installed Updates)
        [02]: KB4055237 (shows 12/13/2017 in Installed Updates; Adobe Flash Player)
        [03]: KB4055994 (shows 3/8/2018 in Installed Updates)
        [04]: KB4078408 (shows 3/8/2018 in Installed Updates)
        [05]: KB4054517 (shows 12/13/2017 in Installed Updates; RollupFix)

        The Update History was empty.
        In Settings->Privacy all was still off.
        In Settings->Apps->Apps & features, shows newly these added:
        Windows 10 Update Assistant 5.00 MB
        Windows Setup Remediations (x64) (KB4023057)
        Get Help 8.00 KB (Cannot uninstall here)
        Print 3D 8.00 KB (I uninstalled it)
        Xbox Live 8.00 KB (I uninstalled it)

        OneDrive remains gone…
        Device Manager shows all OK.
        The registry settings to stop Content Delivery Manager from downloading apps & data are still OK.
        Had to stop hybernate again:
        POWERCFG /HIBERNATE OFF
        This gives some 3 GB back:
        03/08/2018  10:00 AM     3,138,838,528 C:\hiberfil.sys (Goes away)
        19,509,288,960 bytes free => 22,647,980,032 bytes free

        OK, so I go back online [Hazard–not fully patched–so I don’t use my browsers for now]:
        Windows Update continues on…

        10,742,782 bytes up / 404,072,044 bytes down
        4 updates:
        Definition Update for Windows Defender Antivirus – KB226702 (Definition 1.263.332.0)
        2018-02 Cumulative Update for Windows 10 Version 1709 for x64 based Systems (KB4074588)
        2018-02 Security Update for Abobe Flash Player for Windows 10 Version 1709 for x64 based Systems (KB4074595)
        Update for Windows 10 Version 1709 for x64 based Systems (KB4058043)

        Had to restart manually (no [Restart] button shown in settings; Update & restart not shown in choices either!)

        OK, back down to  19,891,494,912 bytes free.
        winver reports Version 1709 (OS Build 16299.248)
        Now systeminfo shows:
        Hotfix(s):                 7 Hotfix(s) Installed.
        [01]: KB4053577
        [02]: KB4055237
        [03]: KB4055994
        [04]: KB4058043
        [05]: KB4074595
        [06]: KB4078408
        [07]: KB4074588

        C:\Windows.old is using 15.1 GB with C:\ showing 18.5 GB free.
        Everything seems OK for now…

        HP Compaq 6000 Pro SFF PC / Windows 10 Pro / 1803
        Intel®Core™2 “Wolfdale” E8400 3.0 GHz / 4.00 GB
        EyesOnWindows

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #174184 Reply

          Jan K.
          AskWoody Lounger

          When one doesn’t have work to do and time on hand, is there any better pastime than to play and nurse one’s favorite operating system?

    • #173471 Reply

      dhdoyle
      AskWoody Lounger

      I decided on Tuesday to follow Woody’s advise and patch my Windows 10 Pro machine. I thought I had it locked down with wushowhide, but I was caught off guard when it installed 1709. Oh yay. It had also turned off system restore points. I grabbed my latest backup image of C: and walked it back. It was not a fun day.

    • #173472 Reply

      anonymous

      This is horrible!

      What if you have one of those 32GB HP Stream laptops? That update will completely use up all your remaining disk space. Wow

      • #173530 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        Maybe you can get a class-action lawsuit going against HP/Microsoft/whoever else is also responsible.

        A 32GB hard drive is enough if you’re running DOS, but it isn’t enough for any modern version of Windows. And they knew that when they sold it to you. The only ethical way that they could sell you a laptop like that would be to display a warning message prominently on the screen, in big, boldface type, warning you that the hard drive is way too small for normal Windows operation.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #173475 Reply

      anonymous

      We have had 1 system do an inaccessible boot device, one with network issues, and one with keyboard and mouse USB issues so far this morning.  And we use a 3rd party patching system with these bad updates blocked.  If they are going to do a forced upgrade it would be nice if the upgrade did not brick systems.

    • #173482 Reply

      MrBrian
      AskWoody MVP

      Woody’s advice for controlling Windows 10 updates is at 8 steps to install Windows 10 patches like a pro. If that’s not working, there are other methods at Methods for stopping Windows 10 updates that work on all editions and builds.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173483 Reply

      bobcat5536
      AskWoody Lounger

      Confirming that this update disables system restore and it also wiped out my update history after restoring an image in both settings and in the windows installed updates section of add/remove. This Co. is completely out of control and needs to be reigned in.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173479 Reply

      juzuo
      AskWoody Lounger

      Original reporter here.

      I just tried to do a test install of 1703 to a virtual machine, to see if it would force-upgrade itself as my laptops did, but after installing and giving it few reboots and update rounds, it doesn’t seem to be upgrading to 1709.

      The Microsoft’s info page about this does say:

      This update is also offered directly to Windows Update Client for some devices that have not installed the most recent updates.

      I guess ‘some devices’ is a limited selection. Maybe this applies only to physical machines?

      Both my laptops that were forcibly upgraded from 1703 to 1709 had Feature Updates deferred for 365 days and they both had been clean-installed just month ago (so deferring period wasn’t run out).

      Quality updates weren’t deferred nor were the updates paused. Don’t know if they might have prevented this from happening.

      In any case, this was a nasty surprise. Windows didn’t even care that laptop was running on battery. Would have been even nastier, had I been on the road and the upgrade procedure had failed, leaving me with unbootable Windows. Luckily I was at home and the upgrade seemed to go through ok.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173500 Reply

      anonymous

      I haven’t seen this on 1703 systems, but I have seen it on 1607 and 1511 systems.  1607 is scheduled to go EOL next month (April 2018).  That may be why it has been included.

      This update is outside of Windows Update.   That’s probably why it is ignoring the defer settings.

      I’ve been monitoring the Windows 10 systems in our organization and a lot of them have Windows Update problems.   Those systems will never get 1703 through Windows Update.  It just keeps failing to install over and over.  We had a similar problem with 1511.  Some systems would fail to install 1607 every day.  I think this is Microsoft’s response to that problem.  And…I’m glad they’re doing it.  It’ll save our IT staff the headache of trying to schedule maintenance windows with the users, that have a broken Windows Update, and manually update their systems.  Hopefully, Windows Update in 1703 has fixed these problems.

    • #173504 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      Looks like Microsoft slipped us a Mickey…

      From both the KB 4077525 (OS Build 14393.2097) Win10 1607 cumulative update article and the KB 4077528 (OS Build 15063.936) Win10 1703 cumulative update article:

      Windows Update Improvements

      Microsoft has released an update directly to the Windows Update client to improve reliability. Any device running Windows 10 configured to receive updates automatically from Windows Update, including Enterprise and Pro editions, will be offered the latest Windows 10 Feature Update based on device compatibility and Windows Update for Business deferral policy. This does not apply to long-term servicing editions.

      Now that’s what I would call an improvement.

      Per @teroalhonen’s tweet, the crux of the matter appears to be the Diagnostic Data Level, which has to be set to 1, 2 or 3, in order for the “feature update … deferred” setting to take effect.

      In other words, if you told Microsoft that you don’t want 1709, and you also told Microsoft to stop using its telemetry to sniff out your system’s “Basic Health & Quality,” you were just upgraded to Win10 1709.

      And all of this is a read-between-the-lines consequence of February’s cumulative updates.

      OK. Computerworld article coming up.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #173846 Reply

        anonymous

        I had thought about applying the mentioned latest 1607 February update, it was a good idea for now to ignore it. (If) When Microsoft do release an update next Tuesday, that one will likely be a poison pill for your current Windows 10 installation. (If I’m wrong, I’ll gladly be wrong.)

        By the way the KB4023057 was in the queue to be installed, so sabotage was going to attempted either way.

    • #173505 Reply

      anonymous

      How many times does Microsoft have to totally “ignore” their settings that are supposed to prevent these things in Windows 10 before it stops being a surprise?  Microsoft has demonstrated time and time again that when it comes to Windows 10, they’ll do whatever they want with your computer, settings or not.

      And we’re supposed to believe they honor their “privacy” settings in Windows 10 better than they honor their update settings?

      • #173510 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        How many times does Microsoft have to totally “ignore” their settings that are supposed to prevent these things in Windows 10 before it stops being a surprise?

        This is the second time, specifically with forced 1709 upgrades.

        UPDATE: Wrong. It’s the third time.

        • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  woody.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #173521 Reply

          anonymous

          So these aren’t really “settings,” they’re just suggestions.  I suggest to Microsoft I don’t want 1709 yet, but its up to them on whether or not they listen.

          I would love to know what customer satisfaction is with Windows 10 compared to Windows XP (post SP2) or even Windows 7.  I cannot imagine people prefer waking up to find none of their USB devices work anymore, or greeted by a lovely INACCESSABLE_BOOT_DEVICE error, or finding that they’ve been upgraded even though they told it not to, all while having goodness knows what information about them constantly hoovered up.  I know there have always been problematic updates but it just seems like the commitment to quality control was higher back then and hey, when you told Windows Update you didn’t want something, it actually listened to you.

          • #173717 Reply

            Jan K.
            AskWoody Lounger

            I would love to know what customer satisfaction is with Windows 10 compared to Windows XP (post SP2) or even Windows 7

            You may get some hints about this by reading the comment section at the “Trust us” article…

            Not all joy and happiness from what I can gather…

    • #173519 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      @abbodi86, @mrbrian, and all you patching guri….

      Any chance this is related to the Update Assistant Tool that @abbodi86 talked about in late January?

      • #173549 Reply

        abbodi86
        AskWoody MVP

        I’m almost sure it is

        upgrade to latest Windows 10 version is being delivered in two ways now
        the usual one through Windows Update, which i suppose it respect deferal settings/policies
        the one through Update Assistant, which may not comply with deferal settings/policies

        BTW, they added support for upgrading Enterprise editions to UA and MCT tools in January

    • #173526 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      The finger is now being pointed to the O&O Shutup10 tool – per @juzuo the tool sets the Diagnostic Data Level to zero.

      Any confirmations?

      • #173559 Reply

        anonymous

        So Woody…If I restore image back to before Feb. updates and then wait until Defcon 3 on Mar. updates and change my telemetry from Basic to Full, do you see any problems with that plan? I will disable windows update service, so I won’t get the Feb. or Mar. updates and avoid the Windows 10 update assistant while waiting for the green light on Mar. updates.

        • #173567 Reply

          woody
          Da Boss

          From what I’ve seen, if you have your Diagnostic Data level at “Basic,” you’re fine.

          But, man, none of this is documented. We’re flying more than a little bit blind.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #173658 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Lounger

            From what I’ve seen, if you have your Diagnostic Data level at “Basic,” you’re fine.

            But, man, none of this is documented. We’re flying more than a little bit blind.

            You documented it 18 months ago:

            Win10 “Allow Telemetry” required for Update control on Win10

            Microsoft would probably explain that they have no way to know how to defer the updates for computers which are not monitored by them,

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #173917 Reply

              radosuaf
              AskWoody Lounger

              Seriously? Why is monitoring needed in this case? It is a local setting that should NOT be overridden in any case. I have my updates set to “check but not install” in W8.1 and it miraculously works without any telemetry.

              MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile 1709 (Lumia 640 LTE)
              2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #173568 Reply

        juzuo
        AskWoody Lounger

        Original reporter @juzuo here again,

        I copied the O&O Shutup10 tool’s configuration from my force-upgraded laptop to a virtual machine running 1703, but so far I can’t get it to upgrade as physical machine did.

        Maybe there are some additional requirements that trigger the force-upgrade.

        This is a bit puzzling.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #173527 Reply

      anonymous

      I’m using Windows 10 Home Version 1703. What on earth am I supposed to do with this news? I have my connection set as metered, wushowhide hiding the 1709 feature upgrade, and as a nuclear solution, the entire Windows Update service has been disabled. Are Home users safe? Is it safe for me to install the February patches? I’ve been very, VERY paranoid of installing any updates on this machine, which is driving me crazy because I want the security patches, but not the 1709 upgrade, or anything that Microsoft may do in these updates to make it easier for them to force 1709 down my throat.

      • #173544 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        My guess is that you’re safe from being forced onto 1709.

        It looks like Pro users who manually turned telemetry off, or folks who ran O&O Shutup10 (and possibly other anti-snooping software) are the ones who got bit.

        • #173562 Reply

          bobcat5536
          AskWoody Lounger

          Woody, Question ?  I hope this doesn’t post twice, I can’t find my first try. If I set my telemetry to Full instead of Basic is that going to be enough to defer the update? I was thinking about restoring an image to before the Feb. updates and changing the telemetry as well as stopping the windows update service until you give the green light on the March updates. This would also rid me of the Windows 10 Update Assistant. Does this sound like it would be a good plan or am I just wishful thinking here ?

          • #173569 Reply

            woody
            Da Boss

            It looks like “Basic” is sufficient. By any chance did you manually switch (in GPedit) to “Security” — or did you run O$O Shutup10?

            • #173597 Reply

              bobcat5536
              AskWoody Lounger

              I made no changes in Group Policy or run Shutup 10.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #173627 Reply

              woody
              Da Boss

              Do you have “Basic” checked in Settings?

              Man, I wonder how you got hit…

            • #173655 Reply

              bobcat5536
              AskWoody Lounger

              Yep..just Basic is set.  I just got through putting image back on from just before installing Feb. updates….so far so good. No Windows 10 Update Assistant and I disabled WU Service and changed the permissions with a small portable program called Windows Update Blocker. The only casualty I can see from putting the image back on is that my update history is gone and I’m sure that is an Acronis thing. Keeping fingers crossed, although with updates being cumulative I will bet it comes back in the March update. 1709 bricked my computer so I don’t know what’s going to come of this in the end.

               

              1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173538 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody MVP

      All those who have decided to abandon Windows for Linux, raise your hand…

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
      7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #173625 Reply

        anonymous

        Hands and toes raised.

        Like I said before, Windows Update is like malware, besides being spyware and adware.

        There is so much peace and quiet in the non-Windows world.

        The next question is, will M$ also similarly force Win 7/8.1 computers to be upgraded to Win 10 as their EOL in 2020/2023 approaches ? As we know, M$ likes to backport Win 10’s “garbage” into Win 7/8.1.

      • #173753 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        I didn’t decide that as much as Microsoft did.   If they had ever asked me, I would have been very clear in telling them that me having complete control over updates and telemetry (and a lot of other things) was a prerequisite.  They changed the deal, not me…

        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #173775 Reply

          lurks about
          AskWoody Lounger

          My household was dual booting both Linux and Windows (7 & 8.1) with Linux mostly for online. Windows was kept fully patched and could go online when needed, probably about 30% of the time. After a couple of near disasters with one laptop being nearly nailed with the W10 downgrade, no Windows partition is allowed online ever which means no updates. They are kept around for a couple programs Swambo occasionally uses which do not require online access. Also, a couple of boxes are now pure Linux. If Swambo will allow it, I would only have one desktop dual boot (W7) with the rest running pure Linux.

          Life is much nicer without MS’ monthly chaos.

      • #173765 Reply

        Carl D
        AskWoody Lounger

        Hand raised here too, of course. Linux online, Windows (7) offline.

        If I need Internet access while I’m using Windows 7 I have my trusty HP laptop (running Linux) right next to me. Or I can use my tablet or smartphone.

      • #173797 Reply

        Steven S.
        AskWoody Lounger

        Three machines with Win 7 Pro, two are dual boot with Linux Mint. I’m almost certain Linux will be my online systems in the future, Win 7 I’ll use until EOL and I’m no longer able to keep is reasonably secure and – dare I say it – Win 10 “might” be around for some offline gaming if absolutely required. Ugh.

      • #173930 Reply

        Microfix
        AskWoody MVP

        Not quite abandoned yet but, having W7 and W8.1 on two devices and linux on another which buys time until 2020/ 2023 to decide which fluent linux distro I’ll be adopting fully across our network.

        Thereafter 2020/2023, the choice of keeping the device(s) offline is at my discretion, unless W10 dramatically regresses to an acceptable OS where control of OUR devices is returned to the end-user. I’m not holding my breath on this..

        | W8.1 x64 | Linux x64 Hybrid | W7 Pro x64 | XP Pro/ Home Offline
          No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173570 Reply

      EP
      AskWoody Lounger

      it looks like setting Telemetry or Diagnostic Data Level to 0 by any means and MS will ignore the Win10 deferred update settings. I avoid using O&O Shutup10 but use Spybot Anti-beacon portable tool instead – I don’t block the telemetry hosts file though.

      • #173580 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        Do you know if the Spybot tool has an option to turn down the Diagnostic Data level?

    • #173593 Reply

      wumpapsik
      AskWoody Lounger

      Same problem on two WSUS 1607 and 1703 clients. Upgrade was not approved on WSUS

      Problem was probably caused by “Dual scan”

      Possible solution is enable group policy “Do not allow deferral policies to cause scans against Windows Update”

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #173688 Reply

        Quazi11
        AskWoody Lounger

        Has anyone encountered the update, when managing via WSUS or SCCM, who has the Dual Scan issue disabled?  If there is a separate update channel via Upgrade Assistant I would expect it to run independent of the update management.

        Also of concern is “Protection from Security Threats” we’re not getting in 1703, are they referring to Device Guard, Application Guard, ATP, etc.?

    • #173601 Reply

      CADesertRat
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m on 1703 and have the settings in system to stop feature upgrades set to 365 days and I turned off updates for 30 days BUT this morning it downloaded a Windows 10 Upgrade Assistant and it is downloading the 1709 as I write this. I guess MS decided that I don’t have a say as to whether I want a scr**ed up computer or not!!

      Evidently it is no longer my computer, it’s MS property now.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173607 Reply

      PKCano
      AskWoody MVP

      This is just another GWX campaign.

      Didn’t Microsoft promise not to do this again?

      9 users thanked author for this post.
    • #173606 Reply

      anonymous

      There is a new update available for 1703

    • #173609 Reply

      anonymous

      Had  my computer forced to 1709 yesterday . Stopped the download by  removing windows update assistant  . but it came right back and  was no way to stop the forced download of 1709.
      did not have 365  delay or  pause on.

    • #173649 Reply

      Microfix
      AskWoody MVP

      This is far too reminiscent of a lead up to Skynet becoming self aware..

      | W8.1 x64 | Linux x64 Hybrid | W7 Pro x64 | XP Pro/ Home Offline
        No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173651 Reply

      Seff
      AskWoody Lounger

      This is so reminiscent of the forced upgrades to Windows 10 in the first place, and gives yet more credence to the views of many Windows 7 users who are seriously considering using Windows 7 beyond January 2020.  They see Microsoft as a far bigger threat to their computers than any third party malware, and here’s the evidence (if more were needed).

      Mind you, this sort of thing makes me wonder whether Microsoft have any intention of allowing anyone to continue using Windows 7 after January 2020 or will simply force-upgrade all Windows 7 machines to Windows 10 regardless of any user settings to the contrary.

      I want a secure computer, sure, but I also want one that I am in control of. Otherwise I might just as well give in to the scammers who phoned me up yesterday trying to claim that they were from a different ISP to the one I’m with and that there was a virus they’d detected on my machine that they needed to remove by my giving them control of the machine. I didn’t fall for it from them, and I won’t fall for it from Microsoft either!

      Thanks for the report, Woody.

      • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  Seff.
      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #173661 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        Install Linux on your computer as the host OS, and run Windows 7 in a virtual machine. When January 2020 comes along, block the VM from getting on the internet. You’ll still have Windows 7, for as long as you want; you just won’t be able to get on the internet with it.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #173710 Reply

          Seff
          AskWoody Lounger

          Thanks Jim, but that’s of no practical use to me. My computer use is 90% gaming, involving a particular type of game (known as Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games) that isn’t playable other than online through Windows. I’m also not going to embark on a whole new exercise in terms of understanding a different operating system and virtual machine setup at my time of life.

          In January 2020 there will be a simple choice for me and many others in my sort of situation (not necessarily related to gaming), either to move to Windows 10 or stay with Windows 7. For them there will be no other options. Microsoft haven’t yet been able to persuade me that Windows 10 will be the better OS for my requirements, if they can’t even persuade me that it is at least an equally secure OS because of privacy and control issues rather than simply safety ones, then it’s a fairly easy decision.

          I’m still hopeful that they will improve Windows 10 before then so that more people want to use it, including me, and I was slowly moving in that direction, but they seem determined to head in a different direction and instead force people to use it whether they want to or not, and as we see that now extends to which version of Windows 10 they insist people use regardless of their own stated life cycles for other versions.  That is not encouraging, and some of us can be quite stubborn when it comes to upholding principles such as where Microsoft’s shenanigans are concerned!

          This is a dilemma that isn’t going to go away as we approach January 2020, and it’s vitally important that technical sites like this one recognise that for very many users (and followers of those sites), much vaunted solutions like Linux and Chromebook etc simply aren’t viable options.

           

          • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  Seff.
          • #173766 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody MVP

            Seff,

            It may come to pass that you and many other people are left without any truly viable options at some point in the future. If MS decides not to release any more decent versions of Windows, we can’t force them to.  For me, Win 10 as it is now is completely ruled out; I would quit using PCs before I went that far.  Fortunately, I have less drastic alternatives in case of the likely event that Windows 10 hasn’t gotten any better in 5 years when time runs out on Windows 8.1. Even if Windows has gotten much, much better by then, I doubt it will ever have the primary role it once did.  It’s impossible to unring the bell.

            If most of your use is a MMO, you may be able to keep using a non-updated version of Windows relatively safely past its end date, so long as you restrict its internet access to the IP addresses associated with that MMO (with incoming connections blocked at the router level).  Assuming that you’re not going to pick up malware from the MMO itself, the typical malware vectors will be blocked out.  Of course, you’ll have to never use the web, email, etc., from that machine; it would have to be dedicated to offline tasks and communication with trusted hosts only.

            It may also be possible to run your MMO in WINE, though it sounds like you’re not interested in that.  I ran WoW in WINE during the beta for Legion, and while it didn’t work as well as WoD ran in WINE (which was pretty dang flawless), it was usable.

             

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #173780 Reply

              Seff
              AskWoody Lounger

              Ascaris,

              Thanks for the comments. I actually play multiple MMOs (and a few other games too) so limiting internet access isn’t as simple as you suggest, although if I gave up gaming altogether it would of course be the simplest thing imaginable to ditch the desktop PC and get a Chromebook for browsing and emails – but that’s not going to happen any time soon!

              You do mention one other possibility I suppose, and that is an interim upgrade in January 2020 to Windows 8.1. Arguably not as good as Windows 7 but better than Windows 10, and it would buy some more time.

              The key to all of this, and bringing us more closely back on topic, is that whatever I end up doing I want it to be through my choice, and not through Microsoft’s choice by them imposing it on me as they sought to do to others before with the upgrade to Windows 10 and are now doing with the upgrade to version 1709. Still, today’s story does remind me why I still have GWX Control Panel running on both my Windows 7 machines – it does no harm, and it may yet do some good again!

              This is the sort of debate we should be increasingly having from now on, rather than leaving it until January 2020 is upon us.

            • #173792 Reply

              JohnW
              AskWoody Lounger

              If you are set on avoiding Win 10 forever, it might be advisable to go ahead and get comfy with Win 8 now, and avoid any last minute upgrade issues when Win 7 goes EOL.  That will carry you until 2023.  At some point down the road gaming platforms will stop supporting Win 7.

              You could continue to use the PC as a gaming platform for years, without risking anything but your gaming platform by going online.

              Just make use of a good imaging utility and make an image periodically of your system that you could roll back to, if hit with malware or a Microsoft update that gets past your gauntlet.

               

              2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #173781 Reply

            lurks about
            AskWoody Lounger

            Seff, you are correct that some will have difficulty leaving Windows for any OS due to the need for specific software or hardware drivers. For an online game or software, I would check their online documentation about OS and browser compatibility and other technical details. You might be surprised to find the game is listed as compatible with a couple of Linux distros (most often Ubuntu is mentioned, Linux Mint is a derivative of Ubuntu).

            One issue , not knowing the specific hardware requirements and needed gaming accessories, is some of the accessories may not have a very good drivers for Linux. Again, rummaging around a manufacturer’s site might turn up some surprising information. I have found hardware support to be improving with time. Also, Linux does not change its driver model from release to release as seen with Windows. So older drivers for older gear usually still work.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #173731 Reply

        Jan K.
        AskWoody Lounger

        I want a secure computer, sure, but I also want one that I am in control of.

        Yeah, that sounds fine and dandy, but not what Microsoft want… trust us!

        You’re just supposed to lean back and enjoy their service. They know best, what’s best for you. Period.

        Sigh.

    • #173668 Reply

      anonymous

      Another user here hit with the forced 1709 upgrade last night.

      I’ve been on 1703, with deferred feature update set to 365 days and deferred quality update set to 10 days. There was no way I could stop the 1709 upgrade process.

      Tell me, Microsoft, why I can’t stay on a specific version for the full 18 months? You said you’d support each feature version for 18 months (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet). 1703 has life until October 2018. There are reasons I don’t want to jump to 1709 yet! This is turning out like GWX 2.0.

      So completely p***d off at Microsoft. My Macs have never done this, nor have my Windows 7 and 8.1 systems. Yet more proof of what they truly intend for your system.

      Microsoft can go stuff themselves up a drain pipe.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #173686 Reply

        anonymous

        To add insult to injury, there’s a lovely message that pops up after the upgrade to 1709:

        “Thank you for updating to the latest version of Windows 10”

        Yeah, thanks for nothing, Microsoft.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #174109 Reply

          anonymous

          I foam more at the mouth over the “We are making Windows better” messages when you update. The sad irony when your computer is completely broken after an update. Yeah, Windows is so awesome, your computer simply isn’t awesome enough to handle it; why not fork over more cash to help Microsoft execs buy a third vacation home and buy a whole new PC?

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173680 Reply

      Rick Corbett
      AskWoody Lounger

      If you are going to disable Windows update you must also disable Update Orchestrator and Bits service otherwise WU will activate itself For those having problems with that Upgrade App go to Task schelduler and delete or disable the Upgrade assistant task.

      I had all 4 Windows Updates services disabled – BITS, Update Orchestrator, Delivery Optimisation and Windows Update itself on a PC I used as a rock solid Win 10 1703 data/backup storage server. I was absolutely livid on 17th Feb. to find it had been updated without my knowledge (or consent) to 1709 Build 16299.1256 and ranted about it here at the time.

      I disabled all 4 services again only to find that 2nd March these were once again turned on and it’s now 1709 Build 16299.248.

      I cannot find any Upgrade Assistant task. Instead, I suspect this nonsense is triggered by the sih (server-initiated healing) task within the Windows Update tasks category.

      I’m currently trying to develop a script that will check and log the status of the 4 Windows Updates services (and the DiagTrack service which I had also disabled but have now deleted) every 15 mins to see if I can confirm the exact date/time this diddling with MY preferences occurs.

      I’ve thought about also setting CurrPorts running and logging as well but there’s an overhead and I want this pseudo-server to just respond to requests/actions from clients on my local network.

      • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  Rick Corbett.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #173693 Reply

        anonymous

        Check taskschelduler and disable the upgrade assistant there.

      • #173718 Reply

        anonymous

        use wushowhide to hide the feature update to 1709.

    • #173687 Reply

      dph853
      AskWoody Lounger

      The finger is now being pointed to the O&O Shutup10 tool – per @juzuo the tool sets the Diagnostic Data Level to zero. Any confirmations?

      I run O&O, haven’t been upgraded from 1703 yet but will report back if that occurs. O&O does in fact cause the diagnostic options to become inaccessible if you tell the O&O to disable diagnostic reporting.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173698 Reply

      BobT
      AskWoody Lounger

      lol and this is why I stayed on Windows 7, and will likely move to Linux Mint if such behaviour continues.

      They can shove their operating system up their a*** if they want to continue like that.

      I don’t rent my computer from Microsoft, it’s MINE. … leave me alone.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #173708 Reply

      dph853
      AskWoody Lounger

      …might have to break Windows update by taking ownership of and removing the system’s permission to access the applicable directories.

    • #173715 Reply

      anonymous

      Have had at least three machines get hit by this today… Days like this make me really hate m$

    • #173723 Reply

      Rick Corbett
      AskWoody Lounger

      Check taskschelduler and disable the upgrade assistant there.

      As I mentioned in my post, I don’t have any Upgrade Assistant task (not Upgrade Assistant installed).

      Instead I believe this Microsoft nonsense is the result of KB4023057 (Windows Setup Remediations) which Microsoft laughingly describe as:

      This update includes reliability improvements that affect the update components in Windows 10 Versions 1507, 1511, 1607, and 1703.

      This update includes files and resources that address issues that affect the update processes in Windows 10. These improvements ensure that quality updates are installed seamlessly to improve the reliability and security of Windows 10.

      What it appears to mean in practise is ‘We don’t really care what your preferences are, you’ll update whether you like it or not and we will use out corporate might to work around any puny defences to try to implement in OUR operating system’.

      That’s absolutely fine with me, Microsoft, ‘cos I only have a license to *use* Windows. However, I see this as a challenge… 🙂

      Edit to remove HTML from cut/paste

      • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  Rick Corbett.
      • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  PKCano.
      • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  PKCano.
      • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  Rick Corbett.
      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #173725 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      UPDATE: Martin Brinkmann at Ghacks identifies the Diagnostic Data level registry setting. It’s at HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DataCollection.

    • #173728 Reply

      Cybertooth
      AskWoody Lounger

      Mind you, this sort of thing makes me wonder whether Microsoft have any intention of allowing anyone to continue using Windows 7 after January 2020[…]

      They way they’re going, I wouldn’t bet on it.

       

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #173747 Reply

      JohnW
      AskWoody Lounger

      I got this popup yesterday on Win 10 Home.  Clicked ‘Remind me later’, and no upgrade took place.

      Booted up today, got the pop-up again.  Clicked ‘Remind me later’, no upgrade took place.

      The way this thing is worded, I wonder how many people clicked on ‘Update now’?  Nothing is mentioned about upgrade to 1709, but the fine print says it’s a 5GB download.  Uh, huh!

      Windows 10 1709 upgrade nag

      • #173790 Reply

        anonymous

        I can’t speak for others, but in my own situation, I most definitely did NOT click on “Update Now.”

        I was actually in a full-screen application (VM) at the time when I started getting pop-up messages about updates taking place, and that I’d need to reboot to continue the installation. I only use this system about once a week, and was force-updated to 1709 last night. So frustrating.

      • #174215 Reply

        anonymous

        The upgrade is unattended. A friend contacted me last night about this. She arrived home from work and discovered her Dell XPS had upgraded from 1703 to 1709.

        Her update settings had been set to Semi-Annual Channel (NOT targeted), 365 days for feature delay, and 10 days for quality delay. Telemetry and Diagnostic was set to Basic.

        We spent a few hours cleaning up the mess.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173755 Reply

      RetiredGeek
      AskWoody MVP

      Hey Y’all,

      Here’s an idea that might work?

      If you know the IP addresses for the MS Update servers you could block them in the Hosts file. Has anyone tried this?

      HTH ?

      May the Forces of good computing be with you!

      RG

      PowerShell & VBA Rule!
      Computer Specs

      • #173761 Reply

        JohnW
        AskWoody Lounger

        An interesting thought, but with the update delivery being worldwide, the server IP would be different depending on your region.  So there’s likely hundreds, if not thousands of IPs involved…

    • #173759 Reply

      anonymous

      apparently Today incident  its the fault of KB4023057, I blocked it in my computer I guess that’s why I haven’t  been tormented by 1709.

      • #173981 Reply

        anonymous

        I  was almost forced 1709 last nigth when Windows UPDATE assistant installed itself when I was taking a nap, I stopped it in time by shutting down then turn it back on and hiding the update I found in the WUHide….This is completely ridiculous! Microsoft/Windows is trying to take our rights away.
        Now look at home-My dad’s computer had 1709 which looks normal and at my work, my working computer has 1709 that seems normalish too. But those are Desktop computers.

        If that ever happened that I got forced upgrade-I pray to the ELectric gods that my laptop will be safe and normalish like my dad’s and works 1709 computers

        But again this is getting ridiculous.

    • #173763 Reply

      bobcat5536
      AskWoody Lounger

      I run wushowhide on a regular basis and I’ve never been able to bring up a KB update, just little driver and third party update stuff. I’ve run disc clean and deleted temp files and done everything I can think of and it still won’t show me any windows updates. I don’t know if I’m doing something wrong or if somethings blocking it. After putting an image back on, my last updates were Feb 5th and it’s showing no updates available. Weird !!

      • #173835 Reply

        dph853
        AskWoody Lounger

        Bobcat,

         

        Before running wushowhide, change the quality update setting (Wndows update advanced setting screen) back to zero (0) then run wushowhide. Don’t forget to put the setting back to 30 when you are done.

      • #173944 Reply

        MrBrian
        AskWoody MVP

        Make sure the Windows Update service is not disabled when you run wushowhide.

    • #173764 Reply

      Rick Corbett
      AskWoody Lounger

      UPDATE: Martin Brinkmann at Ghacks identifies the Diagnostic Data level registry setting. It’s at HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DataCollection.

      I thought this was an Enterprise-only setting? I’ve also seen elsewhere that even if we create the AllowTelemetry registry key manually and set its DWORD value to 0 it will be ignored for this reason.

      I use the following in my AHK configuration script:

      ; Diagnostic and usage data – Send your device data to Microsoft – BASIC
      RegWrite, REG_DWORD, HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\DataCollection, AllowTelemetry, 1
      RegWrite, REG_DWORD, HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DataCollection, AllowTelemetry, 0

      These set Data Collection to Basic, the lowest level for consumer editions (I believe) and turns telemetry collection OFF. Another part of the configuration script disabled the DiagTrack (telemetry) service at the time.

      I thought I had taken every protection possible. In theory there should have been no way Microsoft could have collected data indicating I had disabled all 4 Windows Updates services…

      Yet somehow KB4023057 (Windows Setup Remediations) was installed without my knowledge. I believe it is this update which may be responsible for the SIH (server-initiated healing) task installed on my pseudo server.

      The task description for SIH is:

      This daily task launches the SIH client (server-initiated healing) to detect and fix system components that are vital to automatic updating of Windows and Microsoft software installed on the machine.  This task can go online, evaluate applicability of healing actions, download necessary payloads to execute the actions, and execute healing actions.

      I think it’s a sad state of affairs when a company decides to engage in war with its customers. It is absolutely unconscionable that I have to check my Win 10 devices daily to see what further damage has been inflicted on them.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #173768 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        This task can go online, evaluate applicability of healing actions, download necessary payloads to execute the actions, and execute healing actions.

        Interesting choice of words (emphasis mine).  Malware descriptions usually refer to the operative bit of arbitrary code that is being injected as a payload.  While the word has other meanings, that’s the only one I’ve encountered in contemporary usage in some time.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #173858 Reply

        abbodi86
        AskWoody MVP

        KB4023057 restores most update-related tasks, not just SIH

        AllowTelemetry 0 is indeed has no affect or Pro or Hame editions

        • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  abbodi86.
        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #173770 Reply

      Rick Corbett
      AskWoody Lounger

      Hey Y’all, Here’s an idea that might work? If you know the IP addresses for the MS Update servers you could block them in the Hosts file. Has anyone tried this? HTH

      It doesn’t work, RG. MS ignores the HOSTS file for Windows Updates.

      Plus, the default is for P2P to be enabled… so, in theory, you would need to add the IP address of every Win 10 Internet-connected device on the planet. 🙂

      In addition, MS uses CDNs (like Akamai) in different countries to deliver content, inc. updates… so you would have to block whole swathes of IP blocks.

      Plus the update servers are mostly virtual and hiding behind shared IP addresses that also deliver store content, tile updates and Defender updates. I’m pretty sure MS has it covered.

      However, you could look into deliberately setting your system clocks wrong by 10 mins or so. This should, in theory, prevent *all* Windows Updates but would no doubt have further knock-on effects.

      • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  Rick Corbett.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173772 Reply

      Ascaris
      AskWoody MVP

      Nothing is mentioned about upgrade to 1709, but the fine print says it’s a 5GB download.

      That’s a big ‘un.

      Compare that to 3.3 GB for the install .iso for Windows 10 x64 10240 (RTM) and Windows 7 SP1 x64, 3.5GB for Windows 8 x64 and Windows 8.1 x64, 2.6 GB for Windows 10 x86 10240 (RTM) and Windows 7 x86 SP1, or 1.9 GB for Linux Mint 18.3 Cinnamon x64… these are all right out of my .iso directory just now (I hold on to every installer I download unless/until I need the room).

      5 GB, if it really is 5 GB and not just rounded up, is too large to fit on a standard single DVD, which holds 4.7GB.  I can see why 32GB ultraportable laptops were having trouble with it!

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #173774 Reply

        PKCano
        AskWoody MVP

        And can you imagine what this is doing to people with limited bandwidth?!!!

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173796 Reply

      275Barca
      AskWoody Lounger

      I have used my computer all day  as regular user, once I logged in as an administrator the computer automatically updated from 1703-15063.877 to 1709-16299.125. Update paused was enabled until 4-11-18. Now unable to change my screen resolution, which as played havoc with the icons, only two choices. Also need to search for programs, which is no longer accessible when I click on the start button. Thank you Microsoft for once again ruining a good thing.

      I’ll spend the next few days trying to make sense of the mess. I’m grateful the lounge has limits on language and comments.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173798 Reply

      anonymous

      It sure looks like MS is hacking our computers in the name of updating/grading.

      Not good …

      • #173805 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Lounger

        Windows belongs to Microsoft and licensed users agreed to automatic updates without any additional notice.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #173810 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          Users didn’t agree to all of this. Buried deep in all of the legalese there may be something which could possibly be construed as “agreement”; but no reasonable person would say that it is actually “agreement”.

          My 80-year old father-in-law doesn’t remember agreeing to let Microsoft brick his Windows 7 computer with a Windows 10 upgrade. In fact, he specifically declined the upgrade.

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
          2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #173819 Reply

          anonymous

          Please provide us with a citation from the end use license agreement.

          • #173938 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Lounger

            6. Updates. The software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates. By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice.

            By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #173976 Reply

              MrJimPhelps
              AskWoody MVP

              Microsoft evidently forgot to put the following:

              “You agree to hold Microsoft harmless if an update renders your computer or other Windows device unusable.”

              Probably just an oversight on their part.

              Group "L" (Linux Mint)
              with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
            • #173978 Reply

              MrJimPhelps
              AskWoody MVP

              There is such a thing as “goodwill” and “good faith”. If Microsoft continues down their present path of holding people to the “letter of the law”, but not acting in what most people would consider “good faith”, they will end up losing their user base. One day they will wake up and find that they are no longer king of the hill, and that most people have abandoned them for someone else. And if they lose their dominant position, they will never regain it.

              Or, they could go the “goodwill” route and keep their customers loyal to them, thereby maintaining their dominant status.

              Microsoft is in the process of “lawyering” themselves into a much less profitable company.

              Group "L" (Linux Mint)
              with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #174125 Reply

              Cybertooth
              AskWoody Lounger

              Microsoft apologists may think that quoting these paragraphs constitutes some kind of defense of Windows 10. OK then, let’s have those terms quoted prominently on the product shrinkwrap or as the first screen prior to any installation, and see what happens. Especially if the legalese were translated into English to read:

              “If you install Windows 10, we can do anything we want to your Windows installation at any time, and you allow us to snoop into anything you’re doing on your computer.”

               

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #174105 Reply

              anonymous

              @ b

              It’s legally debatable whether Part 6 of the Win 10 EULA covers upgrades to the Win 10 operating system, even though M$ calls such upgrades as feature updates(= M$’s legalese-speak).
              Of course, Part 6 covers important and security updates to the Win 10 operating system.

              Consumers pay M$ extra ca$h for Win 10 Pro and one of the important benefits is the ability to defer feature updates/upgrades for a maximum of 16 months from the release date of the new Version of Win 10. … https://www.windowscentral.com/how-delay-windows-10-fall-creators-update-while-still-getting-security-patches
              Seems, M$ is not honoring her agreement with Win 10 Pro buyers.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #174756 Reply

              anonymous

              What was the date of that mostly one sided end user license agreement? These are sections three and six from the July 2016 agreement. The other text you quoted is also the same.

              3.    Privacy; Consent to Use of Data. Your privacy is important to us. Some of the software features send or receive information when using those features. Many of these features can be switched off in the user interface, or you can choose not to use them. By accepting this agreement and using the software you agree that Microsoft may collect, use, and disclose the information as described in the Microsoft Privacy Statement (aka.ms/privacy), and as may be described in the user interface associated with the software features.

              6.    Updates. The software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates. By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice.

              If all the privacy options which the O&O ShutUp 10 software provides and including other possible settings were available to users I would believe them about “your privacy is important to us”.

              Sure I totally can be understanding that errors can happen. But…

              There is one other important that thing you should not nor anybody else accept, software which intentionally causes damage to private property. The collective quoted text sections combined with firing of the quality assurance teams and other notable deceptive actions in my opinion counts as delivering a overall defective product.

        • #173822 Reply

          anonymous

          I’d like to see proof of that claim.

          If it’s true, then Microsoft should provide an updated terms of use, as needed, for each feature version. If the user doesn’t agree, then it should be reverted. Most software works that way–the software is NOT installed unless the user accepts the agreement. If Microsoft wants to auto-update Windows 10 whenever they feel like it, then the user should accept and approve that “feature” with a clear opt-in.

          Many Windows 10 installations were auto-upgraded from Windows 7 or 8.1. And many users did not want those upgrades to occur. Surely the terms of use differs from Windows 7 or 8.1 to Windows 10.

          No, Microsoft couldn’t care less what the user wants or approves. Microsoft will do what’s in Microsoft’s best interest.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #173939 Reply

          anonymous

          @ b

          Is it fair for Win 10 users to pay M$ license fees(or not) to be “abused” with forced upgrades, updates and Telemetry ?
          ___ I do not think M$’s EULA, wrt this forced upgrade, will hold up in court, especially for those who paid.

          Presently, there are 60 class-action lawsuits against Apple for quietly using iOS updates/upgrades to throttle non-new iPhones with non-new batteries. Many such iPhone users were fooled by Apple and thought that their iPhones were going bad and so they upgraded to new iPhones.
          ___ Imagine OEM Windows laptops and 2-in-1 tablets doing the same.

    • #173852 Reply

      Ian Gerald
      AskWoody Lounger

      I have Windows home and have delayed the Fall Creators update 1709 using the wushuhide until today when it was forced on me using the latest cumulative update. Fortunately the only issue so far was the same I had with the 1703 upgrade. I had to  reinstall both my graphics and web camera drivers on my Lenovo Ideapad 500 laptop. My wife’s older HP Pavilion, which was originally upgraded from Windows 8 to 10, has yet to have any problems with 1511, 1703 and 1709 upgrades. (skipped the anniversary 1607 update on both).

      IGS

    • #173806 Reply

      anonymous

      This  makes me FURIOUS. I really don’t have time for the nonsense. Windows became a piece of junk. Windows as a ‘service’ is a total joke. Hope its days are counted. :-((( It is now an unprofessional, unreliable random generator. When you switch on your systems in the morning, you never know if you are allowed to work or it will  be a totally unproductive day. Is this behavior actually allowed? How does that go with consumer rights, for example? Why am I forced to upgrade (read: reinstall) my computer multiple times per year, with all the risks involved and usual problems resulting??? Is there no one in the world that can stop this idiotry? It’s absolutely maddening. Also, I see more and more updates coming in. They are all time consuming. To me it looks like Windows is one big leaking and buggy OS that should have never been released to the market. What an incredible mess. Is there anyone who can help us end users that are crushed by a software moloch??? So tired of it. 🙁 Hopefully companies will soon leave Windows and choose an alternative. It’ll make it much easier for individuals, freelancers etc. to switch also. This can’t go on anymore, the limit has been reached. 🙁

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #173979 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        “A”, you don’t have to continue with Microsoft. You could try out something else, for just the cost of a flash drive.

        Make yourself a Linux Live flash drive, and boot to it. Try out Linux. If you like it, you could keep working in Linux Live, without having to install anything on your hard drive. If you want to try out Linux Live, go over to our Linux forum for more information about how to do this.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #173969 Reply

      jrmoffett
      AskWoody Lounger

      I need my computer to work because I have to actually do work on it. I don’t understand how people can get work done when their computer starts updating itself automatically even when set to not update automatically. I would go crazy if I was on a deadline and MS started forcing an update on me. All of my computers are still on Windows 7 (pro and ultimate) and I don’t have any intention of switching to 10 unless MS backs off their aggressive behavior. I am wondering how many people who took the free upgrade to 10 now regret doing so.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #173990 Reply

      Rick Corbett
      AskWoody Lounger

      I am wondering how many people who took the free upgrade to 10 now regret doing so.

      That’s me with my hand up.

      I take all the points made, especially about the Win 10 EULA. Two things…

      1) There’s an argument that I only accepted the EULA for version 1604. IMO it would be up to a court to decide whether subsequent upgrades to different versions were classed as mere ‘updates’ or entirely different products. I suspect MS would be on a bit of a sticky wicket there.

      2) I believe the biggest potential legal problem for Microsoft is the faulty automatic updates. These are widely recognised and, IMO, re-issuing them implies admittance by Microsoft. As such, the faulty updates appear to be in clear breach of UK consumer legislation, in particular the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Part 1 which covers ‘Consumer contracts for goods, digital content and services’. This Act – amongst other things – requires such ‘goods, digital content and services’ to be a) ‘of satisfactory quality’ and b) ‘fit for particular purpose’. I suspect another sticky wicket there. (Sorry… no more cricket references. 🙂 )

      • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Rick Corbett.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #173998 Reply

      Mele20
      AskWoody Lounger

      The finger is now being pointed to the O&O Shutup10 tool – per @juzuo the tool sets the Diagnostic Data Level to zero. Any confirmations?

      Winaero Tweaker also can set the Diagnostic Data Level to zero with its Disable Telemetry choice in its Privacy Settings.  I don’t have Allow Telemetry configured in group policy but the Diagnostic Data settings are grayed out because I did check Disable Telemetry choice in Winaero Tweaker.  Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DataCollection value is 0.

      None of the above matters for me at the moment since this is a new computer purchased in December running Win 10 Pro 1709 build 16299, but could be an issue six months or so from now since I have feature updates set to 365 days.  Had this issue surfaced before I purchased this computer, I would not have done so but would have stayed with my over 5 year old 8.0 Pro computer which I have been happy with (after I tamed it and deliberately did not upgrade to 8.1).  To me, this is the final straw.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #174110 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody MVP

      Had this issue surfaced before I purchased this computer, I would not have done so but would have stayed with my over 5 year old 8.0 Pro computer which I have been happy with (after I tamed it and deliberately did not upgrade to 8.1).

      Windows 8.0 ran really well on my old 2GB computer; there was a noticeable degradation in performance when I upgraded to 8.1. I hated to see Microsoft abandon 8.0 so quickly.

      To me, this is the final straw.

      So what are you going to do now?

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #174118 Reply

      anonymous

      I have just hidden KB4023057 and KB4023814 in wushowhide. Safe enough for me?

    • #174528 Reply

      anonymous

      Hi:

      Microsoft is admitting to the faux pas. Scroll to the bottom.

      https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4023814/some-versions-of-windows-10-display-a-notification-to-install-the-late

      Granted, it is too little too late. In my case, it’s a good news/bad news situation. The bad news is that the update failed. The good news is that the update failed.

      HTH,

      Guido

      • #174735 Reply

        anonymous

        Their “admission” is a lie on several levels – my Lenovo X1 was set up to postpone the update to 1709, but started downloading it as soon as I opened the computer on March 9 (after MS had supposedly “mitigated” the error), and there was no “update now” button to click or not click. The choices were “More Info” and “Hide This.” And it left a turd on my desktop in the form of a shortcut to something called “Windows 10 Update Assistant”; I nuked the shortcut and uninstalled Update Assistant.

        Remember that sage advice about doing a full backup before performing a system update? There was no chance of doing that. Had to uninstall/reinstall my VPN client after the update was finished, as it wasn’t connecting with its servers.

    • #174762 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Lounger

      If you have queries about the Microsoft license, contact your attorney to determine all options. In any event, consider what you hope to gain from any course of action.

      Group G{ot backup} Win7 · x64 · SP1 · i3-3220 · TestBeta
    • #174806 Reply

      anonymous

      My advice is to run Wushowhide before you open Windows update, that way the 1709 will be blocked.

    • #193459 Reply

      anonymous

      May this help Windows update

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

    Reply To: Report: Win10 users being pushed onto 1709 even if they have Feature Updates deferred

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