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  • The official response from Microsoft about Susan Bradley’s questionnaire results and open letter

    Posted on August 3rd, 2018 at 10:32 woody Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    I’ve seen some condescending, white-washed pablum coming out of Redmond before, but this just about takes the cake.

    Computerworld Woody on Windows.

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    Home Forums The official response from Microsoft about Susan Bradley’s questionnaire results and open letter

    This topic contains 99 replies, has 43 voices, and was last updated by  anonymous 2 months ago.

    • Author
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    • #208314 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      I’ve seen some condescending, white-washed pablum coming out of Redmond before, but this just about takes the cake. Post coming in Computerworld.
      [See the full post at: The official response from Microsoft about Susan Bradley’s questionnaire results and open letter]

      Total of 22 users thanked author for this post. Here are last 20 listed.
    • #208318 Reply

      T
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m still keeping the faith.

      I had to admire Susan’s optimism when she said the above on a previous blog entry but i can’t say I’m surprised by their myopic response. I look forward to reading it!

      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  T.
    • #208337 Reply

      Chris B
      AskWoody Lounger

      What breathtaking arrogance and distain for the paying customer.  It just reinforces my resolve to avoid Microsoft products where I have other options.

      Chris

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208470 Reply

        jescott418
        AskWoody Lounger

        Yes I also avoid all Microsoft as much as I can of late. Used to be a huge fan boy thinking anything Microsoft must be the best. Now I reluctantly use Windows because some third party software just doesn’t run on anything else.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208489 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Lounger

        Hi everyone,

        The percentage of paying customers for Windows 10 must be extremely low — definitely in the single digits, and Microsoft knows this. With this in mind, consider that Win10 telemetry data is a revenue generator for Microsoft, and that telemetry is the only real purpose of Win10.

        Microsoft uses Win10 telemetry to directly compete with Google’s telemetry gathering practices, since both companies use telemetry in order to generate advertising revenue. The use of any Google services are optional by the consumer, yet the way that Microsoft has embedded telemetry into all consumer’s personally owned computers which run Win7, Win8x and Win10 is downright dirty.

        Microsoft freely chooses to not display new EULAs which mention telemetry or personally identifiable information when consumers install updates via Windows Update, since Microsoft’s attorneys have decided if consumers allow Windows Update to install updates, then said consumers have given consent.

        The magnificent no-brainer for any attorney to look at is this: When a customer does a fresh install of Windows 7 from an original Windows 7 DVD, that DVD included a specific EULA. After said customer freshly installs Windows 7 and runs Windows Update, at no time does Microsoft ever show Microsoft’s new EULA, which mentions telemetry and personally identifiable information, when said customer uses Windows Update in order to update an original installation of Windows 7. This is simply never presented to said customer. It is what it is. If I was an attorney, I would jump all over this, Six Ways From Sunday. Yet attorneys will not, unless they have a really huge cache of money to burn.

        The upshot is that Susan, bless her well intentioned soul, received exactly the kind of response which I predicted that she would receive from Microsoft. The additional and obvious upshot is that us plebeian consumers do not matter one cent to Microsoft under Nadella. It is what it is.

        Enough said, as I don’t want to get into a rant.

        Best regards,

        –GTP

         

        10 users thanked author for this post.
        • #209361 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          The percentage of paying customers for Windows 10 must be extremely low — definitely in the single digits, and Microsoft knows this. With this in mind, consider that Win10 telemetry data is a revenue generator for Microsoft, and that telemetry is the only real purpose of Win10.

          Excellent point.

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #208344 Reply

      Rock
      AskWoody Lounger

      Sounds like we need to change the meaning of the DEFCON above. Instead of Patches it needs to be for Versions of Windows. DEFCON 1, Do not use Windows 10 – The OS has proven to be a support nightmare and is not recommended for use by anyone.

       

      Maybe Microsoft will get the point if people abandon their “advanced” OS.

      I know, I’m dreaming 🙁

       

      Rock

      7 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208348 Reply

      Rick Corbett
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’ve seen some condescending, white-washed pablum coming out of Redmond before, but this just about takes the cake. Post coming in Computerworld.[See the full post at: The official response from Microsoft about Susan Bradley’s questionnaire results and open letter]

      Umm… just sounds like the output from an AI bot (ChatYa Nutella?)… so don’t anyone hold their breath about any forthcoming change in direction.

      6 users thanked author for this post.
      • #209363 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        …either that, or a very cleverly-written IT non-response to hold the customer at bay.

        Speaking as an IT support person, there are times that you have to give a clever non-answer to a customer. But in order for this to be ethical and proper, you have to at the same time be doing your best to actually respond to the customer’s concerns. It sounds like Microsoft is trying to hold the customer at bay without actually trying to respond to the customer’s concerns.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #208350 Reply

      WildBill
      AskWoody Lounger

      That’s it. My goal in 2019 is to research Linux & Mac as to how to transition from Windows 8.1 to either platform. I have 3 more years after Windows 7 Officially reaches End of Life, but once MS gives up on Win7 (or possibly extends support 1 more year), Win8.1 is in Microsoft’s crosshairs. If it isn’t already… after all, the sooner Redmond pushes both aging platforms to “upgrade” to Windows 10 (S Mode or not), the better. For Redmond, NOT for us, the lowly users either at the business or consumer level. “Who cares what you want? You’ll subscribe to Microsoft 365 & pay us monthly for your Device-as-a-Service… and You’ll LIKE It!” So goes Nadella’s internal monologue. Well, as we say in Texas… “Not No, but H*** NO!”

      Windows 8.1, 64-bit, Group A... switching to Group B in November!
      Wild Bill Rides Again...

      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  WildBill.
      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208352 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Lounger

      The response is boilerplate; substitute for Microsoft product (and reassurance) any product  and the letter will still make sense.

      Group G{ot backup} Win7 · x64 · SP1 · i3-3220 · TestBeta
      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208347 Reply

      anonymous

      What a completely patronizing dismissal. “Father knows best” indeed. I know I shouldn’t be surprised, but somehow, I still am.

      And the cynical side of me wants to believe that Susan’s message was indeed forwarded…right into the Deleted Items folder. It is, after all, the “best venue to bring your concerns to our leadership team…”

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208357 Reply

      lurks about
      AskWoody Lounger

      When Susan did the surveys and shared the results I do not think anyone here was really surprised at the overall results. The replies strike me as a PR flack incompetently doing damage control. At some point the head PHB needs to step up and answer the letter directly and state exactly how they screwed up and what they will do to fix it. Then execute and offer no excuses.

      This response reinforces a strong sense that many have that they can not recommend W10 to anyone because of the ongoing disaster it is.

      A comparison to Windows patching, I run Manjaro Linux (an Arch derivative) on one of my main boxes. Yesterday was the monthly update of the official packages plus some unofficial packages. It was a monster on the box as it has a lot of packages installed (7.2 gigs for the update). The package manager found a couple issues, giving understandable error messages, for two of the unofficial packages which I fixed easily. After fixing these issues the update went smoothly. There was no reboot required and the next system startup today went smoothly. Other than the size of the monthly update, this is fairly typical monthly update; may be a couple of issues with unofficial packages to be resolved and otherwise a smooth update. Note, that all the installed software is managed by the package manager.

      7 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208359 Reply

      jstech
      AskWoody Lounger

      Maybe sending the letter and survey results to Nadella himself on the various social media platforms would help. Probably not though, he probably doesn’t personally manage those.

      Group A | Windows 7 Pro 64-bit | Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  jstech.
      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  jstech.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #208370 Reply

        Chronocidal Guy
        AskWoody Lounger

        If they’re going to be dismissive, I think it’s a valid reason to absolutely flood the internet at large with the letter, until it receives something approaching a respectful response.  Personally, I would like to see the open letter reposted to as many social media sources and discussion forums as possible, with the addendum:

        “This open letter will be continuously broadcast on all open channels until the author receives a reply that both addresses the issues discussed, and could not be produced by a chat bot.”

        I think if Microsoft is going to continue to treat customers this way, the battle needs to be brought out into as large a theater as possible to gain the maximum PR effect.

        10 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208431 Reply

        Susan Bradley
        AskWoody MVP

        I sent the letter to Mr. Nadella via email directly.

         

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

        • #208435 Reply

          jstech
          AskWoody Lounger

          So he decided to give you and all of us the run around by having the customer service team respond to you? How classy.

          Group A | Windows 7 Pro 64-bit | Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
          • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  jstech.
          4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #208468 Reply

          Mr. Natural
          AskWoody Lounger

          That is really incredible to hear that Susan. To contact him directly and receive that kind of treatment. I’ve worked in I.T. for nearly a quarter of a century. You and Woody both are an elite group among a handful of folks that I have always followed in order to keep on top of windows issues and tech in general. You and I both know everyone here agrees.

          You both have dedicated your lives and careers to cover your experience with Microsoft Windows. To receive that kind of response from that “noob” Nadella….what’s his name again? Outrageous and infuriating.

          I am really happy that I decided to go with Linux going forward for my personal needs. All you folks out there that are reluctant to change, there is actually a lot better support online for Linux than there is for Windows….especially now. It’s not hard to set things up with some help and once you’re set you’re good and can forget about computer problems every month….er uh week……I mean day.

          8 users thanked author for this post.
          • #208473 Reply

            jstech
            AskWoody Lounger

            The challenge is training end-users to adapt to such a different platform. There is a lot of people out there that have never used Linux. I don’t see a change coming unless you start seeing Linux adopted in schools and at stores when you buy a PC or laptop.

            Group A | Windows 7 Pro 64-bit | Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
            2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #208519 Reply

          anonymous

          It was claimed that Steve Jobs would answer e-mails directly in kind after receiving them from many different people. This would be the normal response instead of the robotic response from a Microsoft agent, not a surprise but still an icky mire of disappointment. Are you expecting Satya to send an e-mail or was this one reply the total response?

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #209365 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          @susan, by letting us know that you emailed Nadella directly, you have confirmed my theory that Microsoft has erected a wall to shield themselves from their customers.

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #208355 Reply

      anonymous

      Dear Valued Customer,

      %$#XX$$ you.  Details to follow.

      Love Microsoft

      7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208437 Reply

        jstech
        AskWoody Lounger

        Lol, basically what they said in a non sugar-coated way.

        Group A | Windows 7 Pro 64-bit | Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208372 Reply

      Mr. Natural
      AskWoody Lounger

      Canned response. I agree Woody. Susan deserves a lot more respect and attention than this. Shameful.

      Edited for content. Please refer to Lounge rules.

      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Elly.
      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208378 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Lounger

      Beyond the letter, what is the next step to obtain effective Windows updates?

      My goal is to keep my computer working.

      Group G{ot backup} Win7 · x64 · SP1 · i3-3220 · TestBeta
      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  geekdom.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #208363 Reply

      anonymous

      The first paragraph of their second response sounds like the team that her letter was referred to at Microsoft may have been their legal team or division, probably as a result of her letter being published in a public venue. The rest of their second response reinforces the perception that we all have that the Windows 10 user community is nothing more than unpaid beta testers for their feature upgrades and cumulative updates and other updates, at least in their view.  Why spend time and resources on exhaustive testing prior to pushing the updates out the automatic update shoot when they can just wait and see what their unpaid beta testers come up with in live operating system daily use?

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #208382 Reply

      deuce120
      AskWoody Lounger

      I whole-heartly agree with the responders that Susan Bradley deserves a lot more respect than a condensending response. She made a very valiant effort to let Microsoft know how the business side and the consumer side felt about Windows 10’s updates, features, etc.

      Maybe it’s time for the adage – Let your pocketbook do your talking for you. I will be leaving for another OS once Windows 7 support ends. Probably Linux with Windows 7 running in VM for those programs that will not run on Linux.

      6 users thanked author for this post.
      • #209367 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        That’s what I have done; but I have already done it, I’m not waiting till the end of Windows 7 support.

        There may be a learning curve when you switch to Linux; I suggest that you make the switch a bit before the end of Windows 7 support, rather than waiting till the last minute.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #208387 Reply

      FakeNinja
      AskWoody Lounger

      What did I tell you? Microsoft obviously will not listen to us, Satya Nadella makes sure of that. Asking Microsoft nicely to change is like talking to a brick wall, that ship has sailed. We need to abandon Windows as quickly as possible and hope that Windows 10 will continue to fail. In 2020, I’m gone, goodbye Microsoft.

      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  FakeNinja.
      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208475 Reply

        jstech
        AskWoody Lounger

        They want feedback but can’t handle constructive criticism? You can’t have it both ways Microsoft.

        Group A | Windows 7 Pro 64-bit | Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
        • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  jstech.
        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208502 Reply

        Bill C.
        AskWoody Lounger

        It pains me to say, as long as MS has a lock on the OEM install on new PCs, they will darn the torpedoes and go full speed ahead. After all riches lie over the Azure colored dramatically Cloud(ed) horizon.

        It is the individual users who would possibly consider leaving (IF they are having difficulty), but from friends who just surf and email, Win10 is OK (especially if using a desktop). Sure they complain about the updates and reboots, but unless they use the home PC for Quicken or Quickbooks, or Turbo-Tax, and that fails at tax time, or they lost family photos, etc., if the PC does not fail totally, they suck it up. Laptop folks are more critical due to reboots, drained batteries, and failure to always connect to networks. If they decide to leave Windows it is more they are moving to a tablet format than deliberately abandoning Windows.

        It is those who do more, live by their PC, or have to administer the devices that question Win10. Even those folks will by numbers not change to a new desktop OS in numbers enough to send alarms up MS’ spine. I constantly hear comments about the Apple Tax (justifiably), and a rumored thing called Linux that is hard to use (but that they have never ever seen used), but they believe that is for programmers and geeks. Even telling them my wife has used it since 2010 does not stir real curiosity. Additionally MS has managed to give the impression that productivity suites like LibreOffice are not compatible with Office. For the majority of users it would be, but as the default installs do not set MSOffice formats for the various program components by default, they buy into the story. All in all, the inertia benefits MS.

        If you mention privacy many respond they use Facebook or were affected by the Equifax hack, so it is too late to worry about that.

        What I do see is interest in iPads once they see one in action, and to a lesser degree Chromebooks. I know a number of people with Chromebooks, but some are very dissatisfied that the sales person did not really say they had to be online for many things, while others feel in the long run it is disposable and low end.

        Microsoft has looked at the odds and has decided to see what happens. As I have said before, ONLY if the Enterprise really, really begins to seek alternatives, they are safe.

        Another issue for me is I build my own PCs. I shoot for a hardware level that will give a 6 year life minimum and has hardware upgrade paths. I think back a few years ago when Intel made noises about cutting back on CPUs for more standardized builds which made enthusiasts and gamers a bit nervous. The term Wintel is not for nothing. With Win10 and its constant changes and ending support for certain hardware many benefit. My way is not sound, but then I also own a 20 year old truck as it still does all the work it needs to do, is dead reliable, and has no payments (and I can do a lot of the work IF I choose to).

        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #209369 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          I’m considering creating a bunch of Linux Live DVDs and passing them out to friends and acquaintances. They can try out Linux Live without changing a thing on their computers, so maybe this will convince some. It will at least take away or reduce their fear of Linux.

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #208369 Reply

      anonymous

      My interpretation of the Microsoft response?

      “Our profits and stock are doing quite fine thank you.”

      Edited for content. Please refer to Lounge rules.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208397 Reply

      anonymous

      Windows 10 is very different from earlier versions of Windows. Earlier versions of Windows consisted of a single product which was updated over time. Windows 10 consists entirely of a base install and then fluid updates. The updates aren’t add-ons from which to pick and choose but are part of the operating system.

      Uh, yeah, I think we’ve figured out that Windows 10 (and its flaky updating process) is “very different from earlier versions” which were a “single product […] updated over time.”  But wasn’t W10 supposed to reduce the issues and problems involved in supporting multiple Windows product versions?  It, its store apps and their erratic additions and removals all seem to have produced precisely the opposite result, so far as I can see, from looking at the leftover mess it leaves behind in the registry and elsewhere.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #208374 Reply

      anonymous

      Forced Updates are a major issue with companies and individuals who rely on Windows to do business on a daily basis.  I really don’t see any indication that Microsoft gets that.

      The 1803 update that came out earlier this year was catastrophic.  For two weeks my workstations were crashing with a BSOD every 10 to 15 minutes.  Microsoft support played no role and contributed no input for the solution. This Windows 10 update was no longer compatible with the latest NVIDIA drivers.  Rolling back a version or two on the NVIDIA drivers corrected the BSOD issue.  To minimize the risk of losing more time, all machines were set to block updates for the next 30 days.  We want to designate a single machine to the task of validating Microsoft Updates.  If updates are deemed safe, they will be promulgated to other workstations.

      The first sign that updates had hit our workstations appeared with the  “The Fine Print” dialog popping up on machines where Office 2016 has been installed for one year or more. Could this be Malware or is Microsoft changing the EULA on our legally purchased software?  I am not about to accept terms on popup that just appears without prior warning.   Not accepting the terms might disable Office 2016.  Like most businesses, we face deadlines and now Microsoft is holding a gun to our head.
      Reading the on-line statements, we now know that this is a bug related to an Office update.  But, this is appearing on machines where updates were disabled.  Additionally, we get a notice saying that our machines need to be re-started to complete updates.

      All machines were set to block updates for the next 30 days and set to require acknowledgement prior to the installation of any update. All machines were left on last night until we can find a way to block this forced update.  We cannot afford to be down for another two weeks.
      Microsoft has major credibility problem.  Clients with issues seem to be considered as a  nuisance at Microsoft.  My workstations are used to make a living.  They are not a sandbox for Microsoft.  Microsoft’s actions are completely permeated with this arrogant attitude. Forced updates are a perfect example of this. There is a difference between releasing software and letting it escape.  When we cannot tell the difference between a Windows Update and cyber-attack, oversight is sorely needed.  The world needs an alternative to being held hostage by Microsoft.

      Edited for HTML. Please use Text tab for copy/paste.

      • #208434 Reply

        Susan Bradley
        AskWoody MVP

        I posted about that yesterday, be aware that Office click to run may independently update and is not reliant on WU to get it’s patches.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

        4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208398 Reply

      anonymous

      I hope all those enterprise IT respondents to Susan’s survey have been sent a copy of the MS response letter. If these IT guys have a backbone they will take a copy of the survey results, Susan’s letter and the MS response to their CTO (Chief Technology Officer) and make it clear that a followup at the executive level is paramount. He/she is more likely to get the ear of a Microsoft executive.

      There is nothing more jarring than to have a client CTO (who spends $millions on your hardware, software and services) tell you that your attitude toward them is detrimental to an ongoing business relationship. Millions of dollars being in jeopardy will get Microsoft’s attention, especially since they are counting on future cloud services revenue to come their way.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208412 Reply

      Karlston
      AskWoody Lounger

      Microsoft are in classic denial.

      Perhaps replacing CEO Nadella with Cortana would start them listening.

      Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208417 Reply

      Tem
      AskWoody Lounger

      The linked Feedback Hub URL requires an app that only works on Win10.  Go figure.

      It will take a long time, but Microsoft is circling the drain.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208443 Reply

        Chronocidal Guy
        AskWoody Lounger

        I’ve always found it particularly noteworthy that the Feedback App requires a functional Win10 machine to operate.  This is more than a lot of folks affected by broken updates might have access to.

        How accurate can Microsoft’s “successful upgrade” statistics be if it is impossible for some portion of the failed cases to offer any feedback at all?

        5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208422 Reply

      Kirsty
      AskWoody MVP

      Might I suggest that if the canned response had understood the nature of the open letter, this sentence should have read differently:

      You want these updates to make sure everything works as expected.

      My suggestion: “You want these updates to work as expected.” (no need then for added updates just to make sure “everything works as expected”)
      Then I would have known they had comprehended the nature of the letter!

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208423 Reply

      JNP
      AskWoody Lounger

      Woody and Susan,

      ZDnet has picked-up on the first part of Susan’s journey: https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-patch-expert-begs-microsoft-please-fix-uptick-in-botched-updates/?ftag=TRE5575fdc&bhid=20703193368173122880888901483479 .  You might want to loop the author in on the “official” response of MS so the ZDnet story can be updated.

      6 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208430 Reply

        WildBill
        AskWoody Lounger

        Notice what the author, Liam Tung, says at the end:

        ZDNet has contacted Microsoft for comment, which it will include in the case of a response.

        Uh huh… keep dreaming!

        Windows 8.1, 64-bit, Group A... switching to Group B in November!
        Wild Bill Rides Again...

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208425 Reply

      anonymous

      Orwellian new-speak. The amount of arrogance and condescension on display makes me nauseous.

      When will people understand that this company is so disconnected from customers’ reality now that it needs to go? Leave from the market?

      And what would make it disappear? A reduction of demand. You poeple and companies, you have it in your hands. Don’t point fingers at Microsoft: scorpion only does what scorpion is: it stings.

      Point fingers at yourself.  You play their game and endlessly find excuses why you do not stop doing so.

      It will not get better. You are dreaming when you thi8nk one day it will. I said so already over two years ago, in the old blog format.

      (grim) Marc

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #208514 Reply

        anonymous

        Microsoft wouldn’t care… Windows is no longer the main income stream… Microsoft is in the hosting/data center/cable biz now… Folks would have to cancel their Azure subscriptions to hurt Microsoft…

        4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208433 Reply

      Bill C.
      AskWoody Lounger

      My cynical side expected that type of reaction, but I have to admit I was still surprised.

      Now if you want to really get their attention, the issue should become one that is shepherded into public shareholder meetings. The only thing that gets attention is publicity that potentially could impact investors. This has to get out of the tech press into the Wall Street Journal or financial sections of major papers.

      Of course you may end up ‘sleeping with the fishes…’

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208445 Reply

      Jan K.
      AskWoody Lounger

      I could pick apart the official response, sentence by sentence…

      No need.

      It contains absolutely nothing.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208448 Reply

      wdburt1
      AskWoody Lounger

      In the search for words to describe this, the word “arrogance” comes up a lot.  “Contempt” would be more like it.  Letting Susan’s effort be handled in the normal robotic way expresses contempt for her and those participating in the survey, and more broadly, for the customers.

      It matters little whether the response was drafted by a single support staffer, a combination of people, or AI–they all speak the same language.  And they are not alone–this is the language of “customer service” now.  What stands out to me is the disjointed, nonsequitur-thick nature of it.

      We now pay the price for years of debasing what it means to state a case clearly and honestly, and allowing disingenuous and misleading claims to pass unchallenged.  As many here recognize, this response reads like a string of sentences pulled from a cookbook of ways to talk the angry customer down off his or her perch.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208457 Reply

      Cybertooth
      AskWoody Lounger

      Windows 10 is very different from earlier versions of Windows. Earlier versions of Windows consisted of a single product which was updated over time. Windows 10 consists entirely of a base install and then fluid updates. The updates aren’t add-ons from which to pick and choose but are part of the operating system.

      Uh, yeah, I think we’ve figured out that Windows 10 (and its flaky updating process) is “very different from earlier versions” which were a “single product […] updated over time.” But wasn’t W10 supposed to reduce the issues and problems involved in supporting multiple Windows product versions? It, its store apps and their erratic additions and removals all seem to have produced precisely the opposite result, so far as I can see, from looking at the leftover mess it leaves behind in the registry and elsewhere.

      To Microsoft: Oh, so, you mean to say that a Tajikistan time-zone change Windows Update for Windows 7 is an “add-on” to the OS that we can pick and choose, but that the same Tajikistan time-zone change Windows Update for Windows 10 is an integral “part of the operating system”?? Very funny, tell me another one.

      What a bunch of hooey. It’s BS from MS.

       

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208453 Reply

      anonymous

      That response (or whatever it was) is so typical of anything I’ve ever read in their product support forums. Basically it’s off-shored boilerplate text that never solves the problems their users have asked about. Yeah, I think it’s insulting to see how they handled this. Email is definitely not the way to communicate with MS. They need to be grilled in person. It would be an interesting addition to one of their board meetings…

      Edited for HTML. Please use Text tab for copy/paste.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208460 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Lounger

      Unlike some who are quite incensed by how inappropriate this answer from an obscure MS flack catcher happens to be, I must say that I actually find this answer satisfactory.

      It says nothing, regrets nothing, promises nothing, which I find to be a completely sufficient answer in itself. I find complete answers satisfactory, because what else can one hope for? Or expect?

      Repentance? Redress of past wrongs and earnest promises not to repeat them? Being taken seriously at all? By those in the management of MS, about their customers voicing dissatisfaction with the way they are already executing their brilliant and profitable (or so they hope) plans for a most financially rewarding and splendid future? Really?

      But might not some people at MS, if the complaints get too loud and are determined and persistent enough,  provide a full and pointed reply, after all? Such as, perhaps, the company lawyers?

      The Patch Lady, as I understand her actions, is trying to save MS from itself. MS top managers, on the other hand, do not fell it needs saving. That is what, in my opinion, the (no)reply she is getting from them ultimately means.

      I think that the time is ripe for us, users on foot, to make our own plans and choices for the future. And for many, Windows 10, in whatever form it might continue to evolve, is not necessarily going to be a part of them.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #208461 Reply

      anonymous

      Who is in the best position to punish Microsoft for this?

      Home users could walk away from Windows – they have choice.

      Enterprise(s) that have no alternative to Windows (specifically W10) could cost the loss to their business brought on by WaaS and all these broken patches and threaten to take MS to court. They could also sign up with another cloud provider and drop Azure from their preferred vendor’s list (that would really hurt).

      Business rags need to run a story on this. CEOs read this stuff and they network with each other.

      Mainstream media – if they can find anyone on staff who understands anything that is not Apple.

      Business Schools – students should be made aware of Microsoft’s success and failures, but more so their complete disconnect with their customers.

      Tech blogs, discussion forums, social media – This is where most of the eyes are today. They are office workers, teachers, students, techies, you name it … consumers all. The best consumer is an informed consumer.

      Microsoft is seldom punished for their bad behavior. Their monopoly and silence protects them. A calling-out and a touch of reality would make them a better company. We all benefit if they improve. Unfortunately, it is going to take public shaming on a grand scale to make that happen.

    • #208465 Reply

      Ascaris
      AskWoody MVP

      Windows 10 consists entirely of a base install and then fluid updates. The updates aren’t add-ons from which to pick and choose but are part of the operating system.

      Right. So now that you have correctly identified the problem, Microsoft, the next step is to take remedial action.

      Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208467 Reply

      jescott418
      AskWoody Lounger

      Wouldn’t expect anything more productive in a response from Microsoft. Well at least we got a response right?

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #208483 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      Unfortunately not terribly surprised by this.
      Move to 7 or 8.1 and let them see the install base drop suddenly instead of climb – that may cause change, but even then it’s still doubtful.

      This is the way they are. They don’t care, and it shows.
      And it just makes me even more cheerful that I just finished system 3 of 3 being reimaged back to 7 today.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #208486 Reply

      anonymous

      It seems to me that businesses could more easily run Linux in a lot of cases, as long as Linux has the software they need, or it runs on Wine. They don’t need games, and they can make everything a cookie cutter installation, so they don’t need to deal with variants.

      We’re moving towards webapps anyways, so all you need is to run Chrome on Linux. Updates can be tested and then doled out. Pick a reputable Linux distribution that has support, and pay for that, instead of sticking with Windows.

      The main problem is inertia. It’s hard to move away from Microsoft when your plans are already designed around it. But it sure sounds like the update problem is starting to override people’s desire to keep the system.

      Plus, I mean, how often do businesses completely change things when they upgrade? I know most colleges do. Is upgrading to a supported Linux too hard?

      Legacy software probably runs on Wine, so that leaves only being forced to use specific current software as the thing holding people to Windows. But, then, can it be run on a locked down VM of an older version?

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208530 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        One real problem I see with adopting Linux, for business and organizations already using Windows, is how to continue using their peripherals (printers, external hard disks, etc.) that are meant for Windows. Another is that very few manufacturers of computers sell them with Linux pre-installed. Unless manufacturers get from business and other large buyers the push to provide their machines with Linux pre-installed and, first, to come to some consensus on which distro to install… This might be an n-dimensional chicken and m-dimensional egg problem, or so it looks to me. But, eventually, the solution could be: muddling through, somehow, to end up using something other than Windows. Even Linux.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #208558 Reply

          anonymous

          A fork of one of the popular distros that cost say $50 and included all the necessary drivers could really change the way people think about this???

          2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #208578 Reply

          lurks about
          AskWoody Lounger

          Hardware support in Linux is different than with Windows. Linux does not change its driver model with every kernel release so once a solid driver exists for a device it will probably always work (usually the device dies). So if a driver exists for a printer or scanner it will not go obsolete. Typically, if there is a problem, it is with just released devices which lack a Linux driver. However in some cases like mice and keyboards there is a generic driver that will work adequately for many users. Sometimes finding a Linux driver (depends on the distro) can be as simple as finding it in a repository or visiting the manufacturer’s website. But not all manufacturers put Linux drivers on their US website, you sometimes have to go their European or Asian site to find them.

          4 users thanked author for this post.
          • #208767 Reply

            OscarCP
            AskWoody Lounger

            With Windows, I plug in a new peripheral and the OS takes care of finding and installing the driver. Then I am ready to go. Or, at most, I have to install first the disk that comes with the peripheral, as long as it is “for Windows…” I might have missed that, but don’t recall disks that said “and for Linux…”, although many do say “and for Mac”. And, in such cases, the installation of the drivers on a Mac is pretty much the same as on a Windows PC. (I have both a Mac laptop and a Windows 7 laptop sharing a printer and some flash drives, so I know that is true.)

            No need to go rooting around in other continents. Which supports the point I was trying to make.

            • #209375 Reply

              MrJimPhelps
              AskWoody MVP

              Some peripherals just work when you connect them to a Linux machine. With other peripherals, it is a real chore to get them to work with Linux.

              Group "L" (Linux Mint)
              with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        • #208735 Reply

          Bill C.
          AskWoody Lounger

          I do not find the Linux hardware issues to be like they once were. If you are using mainstream peripherals that are not bleeding edge, it will most likely work. My last test of Linux Mint 19 Cinnamon actually had my older HP Laserjet 3050 AIO working in all modes at initial boot – scanner, printer, and fax (a first!) At the same time some of the old standbys of a SOHO like old Laserjet 3 and 4s still work and cartridges are easy to find.

          However for a larger, and especially an enterprise business conversion there would definitely need to be a strong preparation period of testing of legacy hardware AND proposed hardware. The real tricky part is when trying to access various data sources that have their origins on old mainframes, newer data repositories, and did not practice good data dicipline.

          The one unknown is with the new dawn of WaaS and DaaS, is how a smaller businesses will handle the various IT tasks that may have been handled in house or by small contracts. I see increased costs especially with designed obsolescence issues of dropped support for hardware and new hardware requirements of Windows10. MS seems to be following a ‘never look back’ mantra. Good for them, but bad for a business with limited IT headroom.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #209373 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          A large company could adopt Linux on the desktop without too much extra investment. (They may very well already be running Linux on their servers.) They already have their own IT staff who could get all necessary software and hardware working, or find suitable alternatives which do work. A project like this typically takes about six months to implement – they set up several test computers in a back room, and then the IT folks spend several months installing, testing, etc., till they are satisfied that everything works.

          Some large companies contract out their IT support and rent their computers. For these companies, they would let the IT support company know that they want to go to Linux, and it will then happen. They will have to pay for the conversion, but if they figure the cost over the long term, it may result in a savings, not an additional cost.

          IBM allows their own employees to choose MAC or Windows. They have found that it is cheaper and easier to support the MAC than to support Windows. I am guessing that IBM presents MAC as an option to their customers as well.

          Small companies are the ones who are stuck with Windows. They don’t have the resources to make the conversion, that is, unless someone there has the expertise to pull it off.

          Some companies use proprietary software which will work only in Windows. And it will be a major ordeal for them to switch to something else. These companies will have at least some Windows computers for the foreseeable future.

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #208504 Reply

      Kirsty
      AskWoody MVP

      The responses are starting to flow through various websites now:

      Microsoft’s Poor Reply to Open Letter on Windows 10 Update Experiences
      By Lawrence Abrams | August 3, 2018

       
      Honestly, I expected more from Microsoft on this, especially considering how the Windows team has been working much harder to take feedback from Windows users since the release of Windows 10.

      Instead, Microsoft responded with a statement that sounds more like they are talking to someone complaining about the frequency of updates…

      When it comes to responding to customer complaints, especially well documented and researched ones, they should respond in a similar manner. Microsoft can, should, and needs to do better than this.

       
      Read the full article here

      • #208528 Reply

        Kirsty
        AskWoody MVP

        Microsoft shows that it does not really care about user feedback
        by Martin Brinkmann | August 04, 2018

         
        The response is corporate-speak for “thanks, but no thanks”. It is almost insulting and in my opinion worse than having not responded at all to the open letter.

         
        Read the full article here

        6 users thanked author for this post.
        • #208583 Reply

          lurks about
          AskWoody Lounger

          Interestingly the response is getting more (bad) press than the original letter. Has MS ever heard of the Streisand Effect? The issues Susan raised are real and a concern for any OS; the quality of the updates and issues with the updates are major  concerns if you want a working system. Dismissing them out of hand is more likely to get attention than if they forthrightly addressed them.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208516 Reply

      Geoff King
      AskWoody Lounger

      Entirely predictable response from Microsoft.

      Pathetically handled response to Susan’s letter, and proof beyond doubt that Microfail just does not care about consumer concerns.

      You just get fed what MS deems is appropriate, and if you don’t like it, well you know what you can do.

      I will definitely be keeping Linux and other alternatives in mind for my next OS.

       

      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Geoff King.
      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208555 Reply

      Carl D
      AskWoody Lounger

      Has anyone outside of Microsoft actually seen inside their Redmond headquarters lately? Every time I read a response from someone at MS these days I can’t help but get the impression that no actual human beings work there anymore.

      Whether they’ve been replaced by talking robots or an alien invasion has seized MS and they’re slowly working on their plans to take over the entire world (driving the population to despair and eventually total submission with Windows for example) I have no idea but it is rather uncanny – and worrying.

      Something like Invasion of the Body Snatchers perhaps?

      Anyway, thank you Susan Bradley for making the effort to try and make them listen.

    • #208571 Reply

      David F
      AskWoody Lounger

      This was hardly surprising but a valiant attempt by Susan nevertheless.

      MS is effectively a hosting business now with Azure and they know full well that whatever they do, no matter how bad, that the majority of users will simply put up with it and carry on using Windows. I doubt that the small loss of users to Apple or Linux will worry them very much.

      In short they have no incentive to change their ways. They are making up the rules and have effectively won the game

      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  David F.
      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208596 Reply

      anonymous

      When are you guys going to get it?

      The Enterprise clients are Microsoft’s defense. These wet noodle CEOs are all about being wined and dined at the most prestigious restaurants in town and being inundated with presentations from Microsoft representatives that paint nothing less than the utmost of rosy pictures. The executive suite is nothing less than a bunch of Microsoft groupies.

      The only leverage we as consumers have against Microsoft is the enterprise, but they are being led, bled and manipulated. These guys should be held to account by the shareholders – fat chance. The execs are getting their pockets stuffed with bonuses for their tech decisions. In actual fact they are shouldering the cost of all these failures that Microsoft has burdened them with. They should be ashamed.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208600 Reply

      anonymous

      The response from Microsoft to Ms Bradley, although not entirely unexpected, still surprised me in terms of just how patronizing and smarmy it was in tone. It really reflects a top down “command and control” mindset and reminded me again that we should all be thankful that we never get all the government that we pay for! I have never used W10 because I view it as highly sophisticated malware. W8.1 is the end of the line for me unless matters take a change in direction.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208624 Reply

      AlexEiffel
      AskWoody MVP

      Maybe it is my lack of understanding in English but I didn’t see the response that way. To me, it looks more like a clumsy response from an agent trying to help a bit while not knowing at all who he/she is talking to and underestimating the number of voices it represents. The agent said the email has been forwarded to a team that is better equiped to deal with that but it seems like in the mean time the agent tries to “help” Susan understand that Windows is different now. Clearly not high level PR person or support person, here.

      If Susan doesn’t hear anything back later, it will mean something. Maybe Ms won’t want to bring more light to this, won’t want to look like it is a big deal and will hope people will forget about it, but if indeed it made enough noise to reach the ears of some important people, I doubt they will completely ignore it without trying to do something about it even if they don’t talk about it publicly. It would be dangerous to completely ignore the concerns. The thing I wonder is if Susan only sent the letter to Nadella and if he forwarded it to basic support or if she used more than one channel. I think it changes the context to understand the situation better.

      Yes, the response is patronizing to someone like Susan, but suppose it comes from a low level support person with a script, it would not be surprising the person doesn’t understand at all what is going on here and just tried to help with the limited set of tools he/she have while at least sending the email to some more appropriate team, thinking it is just another case of someone not “understanding” Windows is different now. My worry is if it never reaches high level executives and gets buried hoping nobody will notice and that it also got filtered by Nadella’s assistant that processes his email. That is why making noise about it is important.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #209794 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        Maybe it is my lack of understanding in English but I didn’t see the response that way. To me, it looks more like a clumsy response from an agent trying to help a bit while not knowing at all who he/she is talking to and underestimating the number of voices it represents.

        Your lack of understanding in English is not the issue here. This was a very well crafted non-response, in perfect English. Their intention was to hold Susan at bay. And she emailed Nadella directly, so there is no doubt about their intentions.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        • #209968 Reply

          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody MVP

          Maybe, but I doubt Nadella opens his email himself. I would not have trouble imagining an assistant would filter it and could have forwarded the thing to a tech support or other customer satisfaction person to open a case. If they receive a lot of complaints every day, they probably quickly check them and send them to tech support right away.

          If Nadella himself saw the message and didn’t do the same quick check and forward, but really wanted to send a message by having someone low level take care of it that way, that would be quite rude.

    • #208646 Reply

      anonymous

      We know very well that this resistance is futile. I am sorry but it is the way it is.

      I value your effort, Susan, but we know that we here are just a bunch of (rightfully) angry people with Microsoft and we just (rightfully again) rant here, but this is just an echo chamber that albeit mirroring some reality, we do not achieve critical mass for detouring Microsoft from it’s agenda. Not gonna happen. Barking at a wall is not going to make it move it away. Microsoft is not gonna change, we are the ones having to – either to MacOS, Win 7 or 8.1 on a VM (and offline after End Of Support) or Linux, we are the ones having to move ourselves and take responsibility for our IT needs, not asking ‘daddy Microsoft’ for things we think we are entitled to (even being simply the basic quality and reliability of an OS).

      I was a MCSA on Windows XP and the moment Vista came out I suspected this would happen long term and took action, trying to learn Linux as my home daily driver. It took me 3 years, gradually learning and dealing back and forward between the frustrations of XP and Linux. I have also abandoned IT and am trying to make a calmer quieter non-psychotic living of something else, not paying Microsoft any more for their push to expire certifications forcing us to proceed with new ones we don’t want. Now I am very comfortably at home with Linux Mint Debian Edition 2 and I thank myself for every day of effort I had back then, 10 years ago. Rome is on fire and I am pleasantly having a drink on some island, laughing because I got rid of a matter that can make one cry, and watching all this circus from afar in relief.

      Those in corporate environments should address this with their CTOs (this idea came from above on this thread, it’s not mine). A CTO can slap Microsoft in the face with a fat check and say our way or this check goes to the highway to Red Hat Enterprise Linux or so.

      Corporations have the IT power to make a planned progressive move away from Windows. They can hire and pay RHEL and hire a team of developers that can write the software the company needs to move to Linux. That would empower Linux the way it needs to be pushed into becoming the so long awaited Year Of The Linux. If they have highly expensive teams developing for SAP, they can also do it for Linux.

      By the way, Susan, one thing I have noticed. On your open letter you mention being a Microsoft stock holder. So you come around (rightfully) stating that Microsoft is behaving badly while profiting from those very same bad behaviors. That’s incongruent, Susan, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. So if you have those shares, you can slap Microsoft in the face where it hurts it the most: why not publishing a video on YouTube, replying directly to Mr. Nadella stating that due to such disrespectful reply, you have no other option than selling your Microsoft shares and encourage others to do it. Take real action, Susan! That’s the punch Mr. Nadella and Microsoft needs, not mere words trying to wake them up to reason when they have their own agenda that basically despises us.

      7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208691 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Almost nobody is realistically going to invest with a conscience. Business, after all, is separate from life. That’s what we’re told to think.

        So on the one hand we all want to be treated fairly, and on the other if it makes folks wealthy they quite readily prey on others.

        -Noel

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208683 Reply

      johnf
      AskWoody Lounger

      THE EMPEROR’S NEW CLOTHES by Hans Christian Andersen

      Here’s how it ends…

      “So off went the Emperor in procession under his splendid canopy. Everyone in the streets and the windows said, “Oh, how fine are the Emperor’s new clothes! Don’t they fit him to perfection? And see his long train!” Nobody would confess that he couldn’t see anything, for that would prove him either unfit for his position, or a fool. No costume the Emperor had worn before was ever such a complete success.

      “But he hasn’t got anything on,” a little child said.

      “Did you ever hear such innocent prattle?” said its father. And one person whispered to another what the child had said, “He hasn’t anything on. A child says he hasn’t anything on.”

      “But he hasn’t got anything on!” the whole town cried out at last.

      The Emperor shivered, for he suspected they were right. But he thought, “This procession has got to go on.” So he walked more proudly than ever, as his noblemen held high the train that wasn’t there at all.”

      Put in Nadella as the Emperor, and Microsoft Executives/CEO’s/most of the main stream Tech press as the Nobles. None of them are going to admit to being wrong…no, it’s the person or persons who tell people what they actually see are wrong!

      The more things change…

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208744 Reply

      Bat.1
      AskWoody Lounger

      Hello, We are sorry to hear that you are not having a positive experience with Windows 10. Please visit: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/…?os=windows-10 for general site support and troubleshooting tips including information about locating a product key. There is a link to contact Microsoft support at the top of this page if you’d like to speak with a representative. We would be happy to assist you.

      Read That M$ reply so often I started using it as my signature on M$ owned sites like MDL and Tenforums until the Mods got mad and removed the sigs.

      Been delaying doing a repair install on My Wife’s PC so she’ll be able to use Chrome again. I depend on My PC Working so I’m personally staying with Win 8.1 until it’s no longer supported. If M$ still isn’t capable of issuing updates that fix more than they break, looks like I’ll have to go with Linux as My daily driver 🙁

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #208755 Reply

      anonymous

      I purposely invest in companies that make me mad. When my phone company charges ridiculous prices and will only sell packages I don’t want or need, I invest in them. When my prescription company gives me a bad time and denies a refill, I invest in them. My retaliation is making money off of them to compensate for my aggravation and grief. Microsoft stock is likely going to continue to climb.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208770 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        But be careful of companies that buy the patent of a life-saving medicine that costs $1 a pill and then proceed to sell the same pill for $1000 — and to sue the life off anyone that complains too much about that.

        The day the clever entrepreneur finally lands in jail, probably not for that, but for much, much more (as the case tends to be) your investment with that company is liable to deflate with a very audible Whoosh!

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #208776 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Great. Thanks so much for helping make the world a better place.

        -Noel

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208779 Reply

      James Bond 007
      AskWoody Lounger

      Not surprised at all by such a response from Microsoft, even when it is Woody or Susan that post the question.

      Is there any more doubt that Microsoft no longer treats Home and Private users as valuable anymore? We are left for dead and must fend for ourselves. That thing called Windows 10 will NOT change for better, only for worse, at least to us. We (Home and Private users) are being used as Cannon Folder for patch testing. Patches WILL continue to cause problems down the road, and nothing will be done to improve this.

      I have made a decision long ago to stay away from Windows 10 for as long as possible, and not to pay another cent to Microsoft. This just reinforces my decision.

      Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #208780 Reply

      anonymous

      Written by mr Microsoft from India…? :-))) What a joke. It shows the total disrespect to customers. And the complete impossibility to even communicate with a customer. I wouldn’t actually be surprised if this is a computer generated standard answer. It sounds like one of those replies that always made me furious asking a question on technet. Once a nice platform, since Win 10 it became a joke full of standard answers from sweat shop employees that have absolutely no idea of what they are talking about.
      I think this arrogance will backfire soon, it just can’t go on like this without severe consequences. No company can get away with this lack of respect towards its customers.

    • #208800 Reply

      mattjs
      AskWoody Lounger

      The answer is to switch to the least frequent Windows Updates feed for corporates and not front-line consumers. I forget the exact names and haven’t experienced too many problems but enougth failed updates to consider being sure I will get stable corporate updates after consumer level guinea pigs have ironed out the quirks for both me and Microsoft! Be smarter my friends as MS have traditionally tested their software against individual consumer first. I work in the industry BTW and have know this for a very long time and never submit to installing Betas from MS so join slow corporate update stream people doh!

    • #208829 Reply

      anonymous

      I’m a simple laptop at home user.  My reaction to all of this was to go buy a ChromeBook.  Now I have time on my hands and can sleep at night…

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #209017 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody MVP

        I have a Chromebook. Most of the time I run Fedora Linux on it.

        Did I mention this is not an entry-level, ARM-based Chromebook? It’s an ASUS Flip c302, with an Intel Core-m3 processor (7th gen but still Skylake Class) and plenty of onboard storage. This makes it possible to dual-boot. (I used chrx and the MrChromebox firmware to accomplish this.)

        -- rc primak

        • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  rc primak.
        • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  rc primak.
        • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  rc primak.
    • #208918 Reply

      PerthMike
      AskWoody Lounger

      Who is in the best position to punish Microsoft for this? Home users could walk away from Windows – they have choice.

      Actually, this is the biggest hurdle. Home users may have a choice, but they don’t even know it, and nobody’s going to educate them.

      Try to go to a white goods retailer to buy a PC/notebook without a Windows 10 licence attached to it. Short of a Chromebook, or Apple brand, you can’t. And even if you want a non-Microsoft PC, you still pay the good ol’ Microsoft tax, whether you want to or not. You can’t get Windows 10 for free any more (apart from the workaround), and you sure as heck can bet that OEMs give a slice of the money to Microsoft for every PC they build, even if they wanted to sell it without a Win10 install.

      The OS is pre-loaded, Joe Public doesn’t even know what Linux is, or how to even go about finding it (among the piles of distribution), how could they ever make a choice to install one particular one?

      If you turn your PC on the first time, and it pre-builds its Windows 10 install. That is hard to beat. Yes, it leads to a lifetime of pain dealing with all these issues, but even those issues aren’t enough to get users to then decide to get rid of Windows and rebuild the PC with something else. Not to mention that their favourite games won’t run on Linux.

      WE know how to back up our data to external disk, download a Linux ISO, burn it, format our PC, install Linux and figure out how to get applications onto it. The ordinary person will be stuck by step 2, if not 1… The fact that less and less PCs have a CD/DVD drive in them makes it yet that much harder to even install Linux when you can’t even burn an ISO. This is where home users have even less of a choice than corporations (where an IT team is likely to be able to rebuild a PC with whatever boot CD/DVD they can burn).

      No matter where you go, there you are.

      9 users thanked author for this post.
      • #208921 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Lounger

        PerthMike: ” Try to go to a white goods retailer to buy a PC/notebook without a Windows 10 licence attached to it. Short of a Chromebook, or Apple brand, you can’t. ”

        That is a fact. Making Windows unreliable and unstable enough for millions of customers to even start thinking seriously of finding something else they can use instead, is the very worst result of what the management of MS has been doing with Windows. Add to that the second fact that, because of Windows almost total domination of the PC market, there are so very few options when it comes to machines with a different OS pre-installed by the OEM. When those are not satisfactory alternatives, most home and small business users are not equipped with the know-how necessary to install and then migrate their things from Windows to something else on the machine they already own and came with Windows pre-installed. Even if given detailed instructions, many would be unlikely to do anything, afraid of breaking their machines though a mistake, or just because things happen, and who can blame them for that? To those used to installing different OS in, perhaps, a number of different machines, it is hard to imagine what is like for someone, not only inexperienced, but also disturbed by finding themselves unexpectedly in need to do something that is way beyond what bargained for when they bought their computer, or picked it up, nicely wrapped, under the Christmas Tree.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #208924 Reply

      PerthMike
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m with you WildBill. I can hardly wait for my Win 7 PC to finally crash so I can get the iMac of my dreams.

      Really? Sure, if you can afford to go iMac and the software range they offer is what you need, but if I (like you) have a working Windows 7, that works for everything I need, where the software I use doesn’t exist in Linux-world or the iMac realm, then I’d want to keep that Win7 PC working for as long as possible, and I plan to. In fact WAY past its update deadline. As Woody’s posts have shown, it looks like there will likely still be ~30% of PCs running Windows 7 when support ends in 2020, and if Microsoft really does end all updates at that point, I think that will finally cause a huge outcry from corporate world.

      Just last year we replaced our office fleet of PCs with the last available desktop model from Dell that could officially run Windows 7, and rebuilt them with Windows 7 Pro and plan to use them as long as possible. Windows 7 has run like a dream for us, the only reason we replaced the desktops was because the old ones were past their 5-year mark and no longer under hardware support.

      No matter where you go, there you are.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #209045 Reply

      RTEsysadmin
      AskWoody Lounger

      Remember, back in the days of the Trusted Computing Initiative, when Bill said “When we face a choice between adding features and resolving security issues, we need to choose security“.

      The TCI wasn’t just about trust, either. Reliability was the other major component of it. Sadly, Microsoft doesn’t appear to be about trust anymore.

       

      Edited for HTML. Please use text tab for copy/paste.

      Group K(ill me now)
    • #209078 Reply

      anonymous

      The problem is professional software, at least, for us professionals working with the computer for making graphics (and a bunch of other fields, I guess).

      Yes, I can install any Linux distro, I have had linux and Windows multiboot for years. And Linuxes alone in a PC, and even handling linux machines remotely. And both systems in VMs.  I can handle Linux in console mode -at operator level, only, but quite enough- , I can install and use, as I know them well, all the top software available for Linux. Long story short, while some apps shine specially, as a round solution, you would be in a very serious disadvantage making a full move to Linux. You can only survive there in very specific cases.

      If at some point Linux is really capable of running any native Windows application, at same level of performance and without issues -imo, not the status now with Wine, sadly- , then we would be able to see legions moving to Linux that very minute. But I dunno, I don’t see MS staying inactive with something like that. Or if some software companies wouldn’t put really hard obstacles for that to work. Meanwhile, is all about Adobe Cloud, is 3DS Max, it’s too many things making that so desired move pretty impossible for a lot of us. Home users, if geeky enough, have zero reasons to stay in Windows, unless they need to keep up to date with Windows applications at home, because they use them at the job.

      And in hardware matters,  Ryzen platform and other hardware pieces seem are not going to be supporting Windows 7, so…. I don’t see that migration any easy, or soon to happen. Sadly.

    • #209297 Reply

      anonymous

      Does anyone really think Microsoft doesn’t know? In case people haven’t figured it out yet, I feel they know exactly what’s going on because, IT’S INTENTIONAL!

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #209356 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody MVP

      Microsoft gave her a canned response, that is, a non-response. They said a whole lot of nothing, which is to say, “We really don’t have any interest in hearing what you have to say about our offerings.” Microsoft knows who Susan Bradley is, and so the fact that her email didn’t get any better response than the canned response tells me that they really don’t care what their customers think.

      Reminds me of a doctor I used to visit. Her company had erected a very strong wall to shield the doctors from the customers; they would only let you inside the wall if they wanted to. What I mean by that is, if you had questions or concerns, you couldn’t bring them to your doctor’s attention, you could only go through the official channels; and you never knew if or when the doctor would get the message. My doctor hated that wall, and so she gave me her direct email address, allowing me to reach her if I felt I needed to.

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #211253 Reply

      anonymous

      This response is indeed, a shame for IT pros! The overall feeling is that they try to take complete control of the user experience for their single profit…

      Edited for content

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

    Reply To: The official response from Microsoft about Susan Bradley’s questionnaire results and open letter

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