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  • What, exactly, does the switch in Win10 1803 from “Semi-Annual Channel (Targeted)” to “Semi-Annual Channel NOT (Targeted)” really mean?

    Posted on July 11th, 2018 at 10:13 woody Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    I’m struggling with this one. I see how the Windows 10 Release Information page has been changed, dropping the old footnote about “reflect existing deferral policies” (which I never understood in the first place).

    Now that it’s “Semi-Annual Channel NOT (Targeted),” what does that mean? Really.

    Susan Bradley tackled the topic last week. I don’t see any definitive conclusions — or even a hint as to what yesterday’s change really means.

    Hold the hand waving. I want to know what the typical Win10 user or admin will see.

    Here’s what I have so far:

    Win10 April 2018 update — good ol’ version 1803 — now appears in the Windows 10 release information list as “Semi-Annual Channel.” What’s more the bizarre blurb that appeared as a footnote in that post on Tuesday morning is now gone:

    (1) Windows 10, version 1803 designation has been updated to reflect the servicing option available in the operating system and to reflect existing deferral policies. We recommend organizations broadly deploy the latest version of Windows 10 when they are ready, and not wait until the “Targeted” designation has been removed.

    … surely one of the worst cases of Microsoft bafflegab ever.

    On June 14, Microsoft declared:

    Based on the update quality and reliability we are seeing through our AI approach, we are now expanding the release broadly to make the April 2018 Update (version 1803) fully available for all compatible devices running Windows 10 worldwide. Full availability is the final phase of our rollout process.

    Now, it seems, version 1803 has been kicked up from “(Targeted)” to, uh, Not (Targeted) — without fanfare, and with no explanation. How Not (Targeted) differs from “fully available” remains a mystery.

    It appears as if this change in the footnote is a warning that version 1803 is headed out to 1703 or 1709 machines that are set to defer upgrades awaiting “Current Branch for Business” (1703) or “Semi-Annual Channel” (1709) and with the feature update deferral set to 0.

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    Home Forums What, exactly, does the switch in Win10 1803 from “Semi-Annual Channel (Targeted)” to “Semi-Annual Channel NOT (Targeted”) really mean?

    This topic contains 39 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  anonymous 1 week, 1 day ago.

    • Author
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    • #202845 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      I’m struggling with this one. I see how the Windows 10 Release Information page has been changed, dropping the old footnote about “reflect existing de
      [See the full post at: What, exactly, does the switch in Win10 1803 from “Semi-Annual Channel (Targeted)” to “Semi-Annual Channel NOT (Targeted”) really mean?]

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #202854 Reply

      jabeattyauditor
      AskWoody Lounger

      According to Microsoft, “Semi-annual Channel (Targeted)” is just the newly-renamed Current Branch (CB), which means you get slammed with updates as soon as MS deems it appropriate.

      “Semi-annual NOT (Targeted)” is the newly-renamed Current Branch for Business (CBB), which should give you the usual ability to delay those updates.

      Maybe that wasn’t what you were asking?

      • #202858 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        Once upon a time, I understood what CB and CBB meant. Now, with multiple name changes and nuances in the interim, it isn’t clear at all what separates “fully available” and “Semi-Annual Channel NOT (Targeted).”

        I posted the info I have so far as a guide. There are lots of explanations on the web, but I’m looking for something very simple — something For Dummies, if you will — that tells me exactly what changed yesterday.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #202896 Reply

          lurks about
          AskWoody Lounger

          “something For Dummies”, Woody if you find out you might want to send the information to MS’ ‘marketing’ department.

          Aside, why is the tune to ‘Send in the clowns’ seem appropriate in this case. Marketing doublespeak that means whatever is convenient for today.

          Edit to remove HTML

          2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #202912 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          I would assume “fully available” means it gets deployed to all the machines but is still not believed to be in good shape enough for business. removing “(Targeted)” would mean it’s ready for business.

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile 1709 (Lumia 640 LTE)
    • #202860 Reply

      mcbsys
      AskWoody Lounger

      Not sure I see the mystery here. There’s only one 1803. If you set your Pro/Enterprise computer to Semi-Annual (Targeted) with no deferral, you’ll get it on 4/30/18. If you set your computer to Semi-Annual with no deferral, you’ll get it on 7/10/18.

      Personally, I’m following the recommendation on another Microsoft page: for business deployment, use Semi-Annual and defer feature updates 120-180 days:

      https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/waas-deployment-rings-windows-10-updates

      I would think that the 120-180 days begins based on the chosen servicing option, in my case 7/10. Yet to be confirmed.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #202866 Reply

        zero2dash
        AskWoody Lounger

        Thanks for sharing that link, that’s one I haven’t seen before. It actually brings a hint of sanity to MS, for what they’re doing, since they realize “broad” and “critical” systems should not be updated as rapidly. I mean, as a SysAdmin, this is common knowledge, but I think most SysAdmins (at least that I know) have really wondered over the last few years if MS had truly “gone to plaid”. 😀 (referencing our fellow AW user and the great line from Spaceballs once again)

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #202875 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        I understand that 1803 was supposed to be installed on April 30 — the release date — on 1703 machines set to CBB and 1709 machines set to Semi-Annual (Targeted), with update deferral set to 0 days.

        I believe you’re right in saying that 1703 machines set to CB and 1709 machines set to Semi-Annual, with update deferral set to 0 days, should start getting the update today.

        But what’s the difference between “fully available for all compatible devices” (June 14) status and “S-A C” — especially when MS has already pushed 1803 onto machines set to block it?

        I would think that the 120-180 days begins on the chosen servicing option, in my case 7/10. Yet to be confirmed.

        That’s a crucial question, and one that hasn’t been tested as yet, to the best of my knowledge.

        The definitions, settings and terminology, have changed so many times, I’m not sure when we’ll be able to tell for sure when that particular clock starts to tick.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #202890 Reply

          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody MVP

          When 1607 was out of support, I didn’t get offered 1709 but 1703, although with the settings I had, someone could have concluded I should have got 1709. See:

          https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/win10-version-1803-declared-fully-available-throwing-update-for-business-under-the-bus/#post-198384

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #202942 Reply

          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody MVP

          I just opened my 1607 laptop that I didn’t use since 1607 was out of support. I got 1703 offered again, not a later version, with same deferral settings as my other Win 10 station, nothing different (CBB + 365 days deferral for feature updates in local GP, no meter trick, telemetry to 1, delivery optimization altered (99 I think)). Windows said it couldn’t apply the patches it was waiting to apply for 1607, then I hit search for updates and got 1703 feature update shown as available to download and install.

          • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  AlexEiffel.
    • #202863 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      They’ve “altered the deal” so many times it’s still such a mess to try to digest.
      As far as I can tell, (as I mentioned in the Patch Tuesday thread to a comment about this happening):

      If you are set for SAC (which was CBB), with no deferral set (1-365 days), as of yesterday, you were offered 1803 (and unless you’re set for a metered connection, or blocking the update with wushowhide, it’s installing or has already installed itself). You will get 1803 release 17134.165 which means you are bleeding edge including the cumulative updates from Patch Tuesday (yesterday).

      If you are set for SAC(T) (which was CB), with no deferral set (1-365 days), you got offered 1803 on 4/30 (judging from the chart, and again assuming you are not on a metered connection or blocking the update with wushowhide) which would correlate to release 17134.1 according to the 1803 release history chart below the main chart we’re looking at on that page. At that point you were on bleeding edge, but now, obviously a few months has passed so you have a few cumulative updates already applied.

      IMHO, changing Branch Readiness is not enough now – if it ever was truly “enough”. Given MS’ apparent penchant for throwing releases out during their infancy, I think you’d be nuts to be a Win10 user and not have a deferral period set. I think you’re wise if you at least set security deferrals to 21 days, and even brighter if you set it to the max of 30 days, since by that time, those updates have went through some maturation and have been pulled and fixed, if necessary. (Somewhere around the 21-30 day period is obviously when the MS-DEFCON rating improves and Susan has also given her blessing, so the updates at that point are safe to install.) Furthermore, setting the feature update deferral to at least 180 days (6 months) is IMHO a minimum. 1709 took awhile from launch to get stable, and 1803 at this point is anyone’s guess as to how long it will take to get there.

      I will say this as well – on my 10 Home laptop which is generally a throwaway system (as it’s only sparingly used), I’ve hidden the 1803 feature update several times now, and it keeps being unhidden… I assume by MS by changing a bit here or there which then flags the update as “new”; the same trick they’ve pulled since the beginning of time with KB2952664 and KB2976978. Because of this, I think the lack of reliability of wushowhide is quickly becoming apparent. They give us tools to manage things by jumping through hoops for systems not behind SCCM/SUS, but they keep “altering the deal” and making the tools worthless.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #202872 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Lounger

      What, exactly, does the switch in Win10 1803 from “Semi-Annual Channel (Targeted)” to “Semi-Annual Channel NOT (Targeted)” really mean?

      It means you get it now (unless deferred) automatically.

      (As confirmed by a whole bunch of computers I maintain.)

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #202876 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        Thanks.

        So you’re saying that

        • Win10 1703 Pro computers set to “Current Branch” with 0 days feature deferral are now getting 1803 pushed onto their machines.
        • Win10 1709 Pro computers set to “Semi-Annual Channel” with 0 days feature deferral are also getting 1803, starting yesterday.

        I see how that fits. But what was “fully available for all compatible devices running Windows 10 worldwide” back in June?

        Any change to the WSUS feed? Is it now getting 17134.165?

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #202888 Reply

          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody MVP

          Maybe it is not pushed to everyone with no deferral or CBB setting according to telemetry until it is deemed fully available for everyone? That way, they push a bit to some and the seekers, and then if nothing too bad breaks (the criteria being maybe a bit low), it becomes fully available to everyone except for those on deferral and CBB setting?

    • #202883 Reply

      mcbsys
      AskWoody Lounger

      But what’s the difference between “fully available for all compatible devices” (June 14) status and “S-A C” — especially when MS has already pushed 1803 onto machines set to block it?

      First, I was one of Susan’s examples of a machine that I thought shouldn’t have been upgraded. Microsoft analyzed the logs and found that machine wasn’t on Semi-Annual. Turned out that that machine didn’t get the servicing policy due to a group policy issue. So not a deferral issue after all.

      I hadn’t read the link behind “fully available for all compatible devices” before. Pretty interesting that they are using AI to control the rollout. To me that sounds like a separate throttle that has nothing to do with the servicing option. Let’s say your servicing option says you should be getting the feature update, but the AI knows your Avast Behavior Shield (using their example) will cause the update to black screen. MS blocks the update that you would otherwise receive. When they say “fully available,” all blocks are turned off and if you are on schedule to get the update, you will.

      Of course, this will be small consolation to the people running Avast Behavior Shield who updated without deferral; they acted as the beta testers who provided the telemetry that told the AI to block it for the rest of the world. The AI article is a tacit admission that MS can’t test everything; they can only release, gather data, and respond. Anyone need further convincing to use deferrals?

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #202887 Reply

        zero2dash
        AskWoody Lounger

        Not only that, but obviously their AI is running based off the telemetry they get – which lends credence to the notion that if you have telemetry disabled, they have no idea what to do with your machine and therefore it’s likely to get upgraded (before it should be) as well. For those out there who are against telemetry, that puts a huge kibosh on them ever running 10, if it means that they have to allow telemetry in some capacity to actually get legitimate updates when they should (and not when they shouldn’t). The can of worms just keeps getting bigger and the worms keep multiplying.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #202895 Reply

          mcbsys
          AskWoody Lounger

          I think you can only completely turn off telemetry on the Enterprise edition. Hopefully people running Enterprise know to use deferrals.

          • #202909 Reply

            zero2dash
            AskWoody Lounger

            I’m moreso wondering for people who shut off (and change the startup type to disabled) of the telemetry service (diagtrack).

            The lowest you can turn telemetry is 0 which is the Security only level in the Enterprise and Education sku’s. IIRC, the previous articles about forced upgrades were on machines with “telemetry disabled” which I assume is via the stoppage of the service responsible.

            • #202918 Reply

              anonymous

              I think Microsoft has literally sent themselves into a death spiral with this methodology.  They’ve hung the entire success of Windows 10 on the lynchpin of telemetry, and written themselves into a scenario where the only path to success for WaaS is if their userbase willingly offers up all the data they want to collect.

              The system sounds completely dependent on the idea that users will trust Microsoft with all of their data.  I don’t think Microsoft has ever earned that level of trust, and what little they have now is being worn away at a breakneck pace.

              Is the leadership at Microsoft so oblivious to reality that they actually think users trust them enough for this to even have a snowball’s chance in hell of ever functioning as intended?

              3 users thanked author for this post.
            • #203141 Reply

              Elly
              AskWoody MVP

              I think an example of how Microsoft abuses trust is that when users set telemetry to 0, and they aren’t an Enterprise, Microsoft decides to update/upgrade them immediately. It makes more logical sense to put those users on hold (they aren’t going to get any useful telemetry from them, anyways) and have them update later, when the bug-fixes are in… but someone at Microsoft sees value in bullying end-users, and punishing them for not going with their priorities… sort of ‘we need beta testers, so you will be one’.

              Why would anyone who experiences, or witnesses, that kind of decision, trust them? It isn’t a mistake… someone in the company had to make that decision, and someone had to approve the final decision… and that person/group interacts with others in terms of power and control… the exact opposite of cooperative, supportive, community building and end-user sensitivity based decisions that cultivate trust.

              Win 7 Home, 64 bit, Group B

              2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #202922 Reply

      BobbyB
      AskWoody Lounger

      Well it used to be once over you went with M$’s recommended settings, mainly for a quiet life, and that you had a little trust in them as in they had a good idea what they knew what theyre doing.
      However with the introduction of Win10 the “Goal Posts” have moved especially with Win10 and/or updates so if its hidden I generally select that. The inclusion of “(Targeted)” in the description generally sounds like it has some unfortunate connotations. I would even go so far as to suggest that M$ is gambling on the fact that the majority of users/and average users will just “breeze” past that setting and leave it alone. As has been stated in here may times we are in effect “Beta Testers” for anything that comes down the update/upgrade chute.
      In practice I have seen no discernible difference in the behaviour of Win10 Home and Pro, Both set to metered, Pro deferral set to 30+365, GPOL set to exclude Dvrs, Basic Telemetry, Notify before download and install. On the work machines (1803, 1703, 1709) and Home machines, Home(VHD)+Pro (1709) just one attempt, sort of, to upgrade to 1803 which was stymied and hasn’t happened again.
      I would assert that its probably more M$ “bafflegab” to muddy the waters, and @woody don’t worry you me both. It took me months to figure out what it (the terminology) was really driving at and I am not sure if I am totally “au fait” with it now.

      • #202996 Reply

        BobbyB
        AskWoody Lounger

        @pkcano well I said tomorrow but I forgot about the “Miracle” of RDP, here’s the “scoop” so far. Enabled “Targeted” at approx. 1830MST and last months Office 2016 and MSRT sprang in to view after remote restart (just wait 5 mins) yet no notifications, later on about 2330MST kb4284835 joined the party as of yet no notifications. Round the time of posting nothing yet despite WUD normally updating around 0100-0200MST, which leaves kb4284848 (SSU dated 26 06 18) and the latest offering kb4338819 (dated 12 07 18). So no doubt WUD will take care of the outstanding updates 29-30 days hence. Interesting to note after setting “Targeted” earlier by the time I checked later it had switched back to “Semi Annual” all by its self. Although I must confess a bit of flawed methodology here, as I previously asserted, It seems not to make much difference at all and even with CB or CBB set as once the 29-30 days restriction comes off they appear. I can only conclude, with 1803 at least, that CB,CBB,SAC,SAC (Targeted) means if they want to shove anything “dodgy” in your direction you’ll get it unless your set to CBB or SAC from the get go, which I normally do as personal policy as we seem to have the same/similar settings GPOL etc. So @woody ‘s probably right to have a touch of confusion it puzzles the daylights out of me, at times, with all the terminology obviscation change’s every 10 mins and I do believe its Koh Krabi in the background, topical and tropical due to recent events but not withstanding a beautiful spot, ahh for an Ice cold glass of “Singha,” a great view and leave M$ terminology behind 😉

        • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  BobbyB.
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        • #203001 Reply

          PKCano
          AskWoody MVP

          The SSU may not show up in WU. It is dragged along by the CU and installed first without announcement. So not seeing it is not unusual.

          As long as you have quality deferral set, the current updates won’t show up in WU for that many days. That’s why I leave mine at zero, so I see them. But they don’t download b/c of the auto update = 2. And the notifications are not set in WU but in the Settings App. You may have them disabled there (along with ones you really don’t want).

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #203008 Reply

            BobbyB
            AskWoody Lounger

            @pkcano once again a swift, prompt and salient reply. Do you ever sleep lol? not much to add but many thx any ways 🙂 This really could be a moot point as so often with M$, no sooner than we get our “collective heads” around the what they actually mean then its all change again. Ahh well c’est la vie its never been boring since NT4 and Win3.1 🙂

    • #202923 Reply

      PKCano
      AskWoody MVP

      Microsoft usually issues two Win10 CUs per month. The Security CU is released on Patch Tuesday. The Non-security Cu is released on the third Tues. or later in the month. I believe the second CU of the month is like the “Preview Rollup” for Win7/8.1 (also called non-security b/c it contains the non-security fixes for the following month).

      My Win10 Pro systems are set to CBB/SAC, delay Feature Updates (upgrades) = 365, delay Quality Updates = 0, and no pause. In Group Policy I have Automatic Updates = Enabled,2 (notify download/install) and Deliver Optimization = Enabled, 99 (simple download no peering). I am currently running 1703, 1709 and 1803 with those settings.

      I am offered the Security CU on Patch Tues (delay Quality = 0) every month. I am not offered the non-security second issue CU. The Patch Tues updates show up immediately in WU on Patch Tues. (delay = 0) but are not downloaded until I click on the “Download” button. I do not have to search for updates (watch out “Seekers”) to be able to see them. I can hide patches with wushiwhide.

      It is my belief that if I change to CB/SAC (Targeted) (the hit-me-with-everything setting) that I will be offered the non-security ”Preview” patches (second CU of the month). This does not include Feature updates, as they are delayed = 365.

      I think I will be offered the Feature updates based on my delay setting. When I wanted to update 1703 to 1709, that’s what I did (set feature delay = 0, CB) and was offered the Upgrade.When I wanted to upgrade 1703 to 1803, that’s what I did, but I had to hide the 1709 upgrade to be offered the 1803 version.

      I believe CBB/SAC and CB/SAC (Targeted) only control the way you get monthly Quality updates as long as you have Feature Updates delayed. If you do not have Feature updates delayed, CB/SAC (Targeted) may get Feature updates immediately or at the pace MS decides to roll them out. Without delay, CBB/SAC may get the Feature updates on or after the next version is declared suitable for business. So CB/SAC (Targeted) and CBB/SAC control Feature updates as long as Feature delay = 0 or the delay runs out.

      This is the way my systems have been running – my experience. This is for Win10 Pro.
      All of this UNLESS MS decides to force Upgrades at their whim.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #202933 Reply

        BobbyB
        AskWoody Lounger

        @pkcano that’s intriguing, basically what I am finding with 1709,1803,1709 in a mixed bag network, running “simulations” before going in to service with a variety of older machines circa anything from 2014 to 2017, ASUS, Thinkpad’s, HP’s and 1 Acer. Is that there’s really no surprises. When April and 1803 came around, my Home machines 1709 (Laptop + Desktop) got a nag Msg, as did the 2xLaptops @ work running HP and Lenovo/IBM 1709 both quelled. 1703’s got nothing no “nags” and are still getting updates, theyre the 2014 Box’s. They are all set to CBB with GPOL’s set as above. 30+365 in Settings GUI, Metered in Ethernet. All the updates generally get delivered approx. 29 days later i.e. a month behind, not exactly 30 but hey what’s a day? Just going to push this out there, anything to do with age of the machine?, Arch. certainly for upgrades, although for Reg Cumm updates I don’t think its a factor?. What I am seeing with the 2×1803 machines they seem lagged with the same settings and are still on winver Version 10.0.17134.48, didn’t I catch there was an SSU out there somewhere? for 1803. Most confusing to say the least, Really at the end of the day, my personal computing preferences aside, when they go out in the field, the Machines need to Hook up and go reliably and as long as needed not going in to a install/Boot loop or 2 down days (takes for a replacement to reach that particular “field”) and, Terminology appart, Win10 1803 is doing good as was/are 1709 and 1703, you know I could just be lucky at the end of the day when all’s said and done. 🙂

        • #202934 Reply

          PKCano
          AskWoody MVP

          The SSUs are usually mentioned ot the bottom of the page for the MS CU if you look up the KB #. If you are installing manually, they need to be installed first. If you use WU, they are automatically d/l and installed without mentioning them.

          I haven’t been run over by forced upgrades YET with my settings.

      • #202941 Reply

        BobbyB
        AskWoody Lounger

        @pkcano Hmmm thanks for the swift reply, I have been mulling over the “log Jam” with 1803 UD’s for a while now. I, think, can safely move one of them to “Targeted” tomorrow and see what happens, my curiosity has been piqued enough. If memory serves me right, I did this with CBB to CB last year and there wasn’t a whole lot of difference, if any; Worth a try if only to clear up the confusion.
        Loved the inclusion of YET its definitely figuring more in Post’s just lately.

    • #202930 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      And as a corollary, the June 14 AI crowing post “we are now expanding the release broadly to make the April 2018 Update (version 1803) fully available for all compatible devices running Windows 10 worldwide” means and meant exactly nothing.

      ?

      • #202931 Reply

        PKCano
        AskWoody MVP

        Maybe it means it ‘s not just available to “Seekers” and the MS “most likely to succeed” devices, but to everyone whose settings are right.

        BUT…

        It probably means “Watch out for forced upgrades.”

        • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  PKCano.
        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #202935 Reply

      anonymous

      This is how I surmise the logic flows…

      Windows is now a service that is manged from the MS bunker somewhere.  You have two choices for updates regardless of what they are actually called. We’ll use targeted and non-targeted.

      Targeted Updates:

      Users you opt into this category with their settings send a request for updates to MS. The server analyzes the request:

      1) Is the requesting platform one that our AI recognizes as being a good fit for the feature update at this time?

      2) Is the requesting platform one that our AI doesn’t yet know or is uncertain if a feature is a good fit at this time?

      3) Is the requesting platform one that our AI knows is *not* a good fit at this time?

      Groups 1 & 2 will probably get the update as there is either no reason not to install it or MS really wants the data on how your platform responds. Group 3 will be deferred until later when MS knows the blocks are sorted out.

      Non-targeted :

      Zero Day – Requesting platform does not wish to receive the feature update until the AI is satisfied that all blocks to a successful installation are resolved regardless of the AI’s near certainty that the install can proceed successfully.

      # of days after zero day:

      Requesting platform wishes to wait the specified number of days after feature update is declared non-targeted for reasons that the AI & MS don’t necessarily understand and probably don’t appreciate.

      • #203071 Reply

        Elly
        AskWoody MVP

        or MS really wants the data on how your platform responds.

        I hadn’t even thought of that as a possibility before… sad, if true…

        Win 7 Home, 64 bit, Group B

    • #202962 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Lounger

      While we’re still muddling up CB and CBB, Microsoft have already announced that they’re eliminating “Targeted”:

      Windows 10 and the “disappearing” SAC-T

      What’s next? Phase A/B? Or just Defer (which starts from the initial availability date)?

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #203180 Reply

        Elly
        AskWoody MVP

        Thank you, @b, for linking to that blog post by a John Wilcox… a Microsoft employee on the Microsoft Tech Community. Reading that gave some humanity to Microsoft’s side of things.

        Back in the day… there used to be ‘sensitivity training’ for people, useful in a variety of areas, to teach people how to respond more appropriately and effectively with each other… or there was a time when social dancing required a partner, and one would learn to lead/be led in order to navigate across the dance floor. You can tell people, all you want, but there is something to be said for learning the feel of what something means… it can lead to that ‘ah ha’ moment. There is a huge difference between someone counting steps (1.. 2.. 3.., 1.. 2.. 3..) and melting into the arms of a partner who knows the steps and how to lead, and letting them lead you, change directions, spin you, and floating across the floor (very romantic, by the way), keeping you safe from other dancers and obstacles. John Wilcox is the first I’ve heard that really noticed what their partners were doing, and rather than trying to shove or push or pull them, is working to figure out the changing steps of the dance… and how to lead…

        May I suggest that changing the wording is not helpful. No one wants to be learning new terminology all the time. They want to know how to do what they need to do… and what they need to do may not be what Microsoft wants them to do… or maybe there is a more responsible way to lead businesses and personal users into falling in love with them again. I used to love Windows, but I’m pretty well done with its bad behavior, stumbling over telemetry and forced updates… for a minute, reading John Wilcox’s piece, I had a glimmer of hope that someone is paying attention, and might change the way they are leading, rather than yelling out step counts in another language (French, or Japanese, maybe?).

        How do you teach AI to dance? Right now its acting like a school yard bully. I neither want to be misled/manipulated, or bullied/forced. I keep thinking how good it felt (for both partners) to float across the floor, coming together, moving apart, but always in tune with the music and each other.

        It sounds like, or am I too naively hopeful, that John Wilcox might have some sensitivity to what is going on with Microsoft’s business partners… and is looking for a way to work with them? He might have to realize, though, that there is something abusive about being forced to beta test. I don’t think we were spoiled by the disbanded testing division of Microsoft… I think having it was a good business practice to not inflict problems on customers. Maybe there is a future where the AI is refined enough not to jerk end users around, but that future is not here yet. Competing for financial incentives based on numbers of users, or speed of feature updates, is counterproductive to moving in balance, in step, safely and securely, with a partner. I can always change partners, especially when I’m getting my toes stepped on too hard, or too frequently.

        Microsoft- I’m thinking we need a little love and romance here, someone to lead rather than dominate, and a little sensitivity/empathy would help. We do not need another change in terminology to trip and fall over! Please!

        Win 7 Home, 64 bit, Group B

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    • #202964 Reply

      Cybertooth
      AskWoody Lounger

      Can someone explain to me how all this arcane shifting jargon and tortuous logic, is simpler and clearer than:

      Windows-Update

      • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Cybertooth.
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      • #203020 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        …let me choose…

        I suggest that the difference is that there is no “me” in “AI”.

        I wish I could contribute more directly to this discussion. It has certainly been interesting to learn that there is an AI decision-maker at work… It would help explain what I’m seeing.

        Somehow I now apparently have the Win 10 VM that I run in a state where Microsoft’s AI simply does not choose to update it. I don’t know why – it never tells – but even with Windows Update services enabled full time and unblocked by the firewall I’m simply never offered anything but Windows Defender updates, MSRT, the occasional Flash update… NO cumulative updates are ever shown even though I’ve not set any deferral, and I’m (Targeted).

        I’m not complaining, mind you – it’s nice – though it would sure be good to know why it’s working this way.

        The Windows Update section of the Settings App reports “Some settings are managed by your organization”, though a review of all the policies it lists reveals they are NOT set. Telemetry is blocked though. That could be the root of it.

        Basically this leaves me with the ongoing choice to do nothing and continue running a working system, or go to the catalog when it’s convenient and install the latest cumulative update. Exactly everything I want.

        Though I had a specific problem installing manual updates last year, the catalog updates have been going in smoothly lately for me without any muss or fuss.

        Result? Lately I’ve had THE BEST user experience with keeping Win 10 up to date that I’ve logged since it was first released.

        My VMs have simply been available when I’ve needed them for as long as I’ve needed them, and when I get a break in work I update them from the catalog. Straightforward and manageable.

        I just took the July update bringing Win 10 to 17134.165. Hear that, Microsoft? I have the choice and it requires me to initiate, yet I AM keeping Windows 10 up to date. Reimagine that!

        Win10UpToDate

        IF I could actually plan on it working this way on my hardware, I might start to think about putting Win 10 on it. But an uncontrollable AI making decisions about how MY computer – a device critical to my business’ well being – is to run? Unacceptable.

        -Noel

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    • #202960 Reply

      anonymous

      That’s not the only issue.  I’ve not been able to find out how to deal with deferrals.  Supposing one intends to defer in order to have a testing program and will decide, based on testing, whether to deploy on the computers with deferrals or not or when?  In order to manage the situation, one would need to know for the computers with deferrals SET at 30 (35?) or 365 days:

      – Does this computer have any updates that are now deferred?  What are they?

      – When will the deferred updates be installed if no action is taken?  i.e. how much time is left to complete testing for each one?

      – If testing concludes that an update is OK, can it be installed?  How?

      – If testing concludes that an update is problematic, can it be prevented?  How?

      So, simply deferring updates almost seems useless unless one can manage the follow-on actions and get known results.

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    • #203044 Reply

      L_Wolf-78
      AskWoody Lounger

      Is quite the convenience given how Microsoft is pulling out of Online Support sometime this month if not already. Have been trying to get straight answer as to when & what EXACTLY is affected by that. Now we have a situation basically like February went again.

      If anything am glad I was able to find some post’s about blocking any further “updates” from Window’s 10 after a 2nd trip to (luckily) a Microsoft Store within my city for the 2nd Factory Reset. All because of 1803!! This last trip was almost 2 week’s from the initial onslaught which somehow bypassed the configuration from the 1st time to wind up formatting a USB recovery drive & corrupted a CD & DVD BOTH that the Technician at Microsoft helped me get created for Windows 7+10 with 1703 version ISO on the USB stick! Sunday night just to be sure I pulled the Ethernet cable & Monday night pulled the power on my router to be 110% sure “Patch Tuesday” wouldn’t involve a 3rd visit for repairs. Was somehow boosted to 1709 still…But at least it is stable & nothing has gone bad that I actually need to care about (YET!) unless count the useless app store as refusing to acknowledge why it won’t allow even the Troubleshooter to turn it back on.

      Even funnier (if you can get it) is how both times I was into the Microsoft Storefront, they had to try convincing me to upgrade my PC as well as the software from Home to Professional or even Premium edition!! “With this type of upgrade you can then use thing’s like our latest Holo-lens Headset which is not only on display but you can try for yourself right over here…” What good is $400+ on a headset if the stupid OS necessary to run it is bunk?!? Seriously…

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    • #203318 Reply

      anonymous

      I’m so glad I decided 2 years ago to deploy ONLY Windows 10 1607 LTSC on all my new workstations.  I don’t miss Cortana, Edge, the Microsoft Store, or most importantly that feature update monthly nightmare of updates that always ensues!

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

    Reply To: What, exactly, does the switch in Win10 1803 from “Semi-Annual Channel (Targeted)” to “Semi-Annual Channel NOT (Targeted”) really mean?

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