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  • 1809 and SMBv1 – Still not fully fixed [RESOLVED?]

    Posted on RetiredGeek Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    Home Forums AskWoody support Windows Windows 10 Windows 10 version 1809 – September 2018 Update 1809 and SMBv1 – Still not fully fixed [RESOLVED?]

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      • #244719 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        Hey Y’all,

        Today I updated my production machine to 1809 and commenced to do a little testing.

        One of the first things I did was run a PowerShell program I wrote to add Trusted Hosts to my list (always cleaned out by a new install). It errored out because this statement returned a NULL value:

         
        $x = (([adsi]"WinNT://$((Get-WMIObject Win32_ComputerSystem).Domain)").Children.path) 
        

        and later on that Null value blew it up.

        So what changed, I poked around for a while and discovered that the SMBv1 protocol was disabled, the new default as of 1803 I think. So I turned SMBv1 back on and no errors!

        I progressed to doing a little testing with another area where SMBv1 causes problems that being enumeration of network computers in file explorer.
        NetworkwSMB1Enabled
        NetworkwSMB1Disabled
        Note: a reboot is required every time you change the SMBv1 setting.
        Also the Dell1564 is running Insider Build 18309.rs_prerelease 181220-1256.

        Yep, Microsoft can’t seem to get their act together to support recognized security standards in their base software product, i.e. the deprecation of SMBv1.

        Now there are work arounds to this problem beside enabling SMBv1.

        • You can access other computers via file explorer’s address bar, e.g. \DellXPS8700 and it will then show up on the list until the next reboot.
        • You can put credentials to access the the computer in the Credential Manager and then it will show up in the list (SMB setting not important here)

        Of course this kind of beggars the setting up of having a common userID/Password on all your machines and making your shares available to Authenticated Users as I like to do.

        Just though you’d all like to know…or not.

        FYI: I initiated this upgrade due to a problem I was having with 1803 and I am glad to report that at least that problem is fixed in 1809!

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

        • This topic was modified 6 days, 1 hour ago by RetiredGeek.
        • This topic was modified 5 days, 10 hours ago by RetiredGeek.
        Attachments:
        3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #244738 Reply
        BobbyB
        AskWoody Lounger

        Yes young fella I feel your pain this is the “Song and Dance” I had to go through with Win10 1809 and partially with 1803 on a Home Network: https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/win10-version-1809-buglog-including-troubling-tales-of-lost-user-data/#post-221676 Mercifully as of Win10 1809 Winver 17763.195 none of that seems to apply anymore, Home version doesnt seem to need the Create desktop Shutdown Button Dodge or the use of a shutdown Batch file with GPOL. Not entirely enamoured with what I am reading about Win10 1903,4,5 whenever it shows up? As it seems to be a pattern of Network Woes since Home Group’s demise 1709?? methinks.
        Never used Home Groups Per Se only as a quick fix for networking problems then back out the errant Machines one at a time, same with enabling a whole Swath of Services as per link above, just enable them all then back out, 1 Service at a time until you get a minimal working Network, I would imagine there’s a few Hairless Sys. Admins out there if this is the Carry on with a large scale Corporate Deployment, thank goodness my role is way more mundane but at times equally frustrating lol 😉

      • #244901 Reply
        b
        AskWoody Plus

        I progressed to doing a little testing with another area where SMBv1 causes problems that being enumeration of network computers in file explorer. …

        Yep, Microsoft can’t seem to get their act together to support recognized security standards in their base software product, i.e. the deprecation of SMBv1.

        Wasn’t this covered by the Explorer Network Browsing section more than a year ago at;
        SMBv1 is not installed by default in Windows 10 Fall Creators Update and Windows Server, version 1709 and later versions

        And suggested in the reply you got when you raised the same point regarding 1709/1803 six months ago?
        (“set both “Function publish” etc in Services.msc to Auto or Auto delayed (M$ Preference)”)

        Not sure why you would expect a different situation in 1809 after a year of the same in 1709/1803.

        Windows 10 Pro Version 2004: Group ASAP (Pioneer/Chump)

      • #313183 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        b,

        Tried the Function publish fix but it didn’t solve the problem. I’ve just turned SMBv1 back on and all is good again. I sure hope M$ will get this fixed before the next feature update in March/April/May whenever!

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

      • #1896268 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        Hey Y’all,

        Well this problem persists on 1903.

        #With SMBv1 Disabled
        
        PS> ([adsi]"WinNT://$((Get-WMIObject Win32_ComputerSystem
                               ).Domain)").Children.path
        
        PS> 
        
        #With SMBv1 Enabled
        
        PS> ([adsi]"WinNT://$((Get-WMIObject Win32_ComputerSystem
                               ).Domain)").Children.path
        WinNT://HOME/xxxxLT1564
        WinNT://HOME/DELL137000JLT
        WinNT://HOME/DELLXPS8700
        WinNT://HOME/DELLXPS8920
        WinNT://HOME/MYBOOKLIVE
        
        PS> 
        

        Come on MS let’s get your act together.

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

        • This reply was modified 10 months ago by RetiredGeek.
        • #2008473 Reply
          RetiredGeek
          AskWoody MVP

          PowerShell problem persists into 1909 with SMBv1 disabled!

          May the Forces of good computing be with you!

          RG

          PowerShell & VBA Rule!
          Computer Specs

      • #1896317 Reply
        jabeattyauditor
        AskWoody Lounger

        b,

        Tried the Function publish fix but it didn’t solve the problem. I’ve just turned SMBv1 back on and all is good again. I sure hope M$ will get this fixed before the next feature update in March/April/May whenever!

        It IS fixed. This wretchedly-insecure protocol is turned off by default.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #1896465 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        Sorry, but I beg to differ. When turning off SMBv1 breaks things that should work the problem is not fixed it is just shifted to another area. PowerShell is a Microsoft Product and if it is broken by turning off SMBv1 the problem still exists IMHO. 😎

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #1896470 Reply
          b
          AskWoody Plus

          PowerShell isn’t broken. You provided workarounds to SMBv1 in the first post of this thread.

          Windows 10 Pro Version 2004: Group ASAP (Pioneer/Chump)

      • #2264685 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        Hey Y’all,

        I’m stilled stumpped as to why when I disable SMBv1 on all my machines,
        3 of them behave as they should but one refuses to enumerate itself and
        the other three also do not enumerate it in File Explorer either.

        Here’s the Setup:

        Machine       Type    WindowsVersion Enumerated in F-Explorer Network. 
        DellXPS8920   Desktop 18363.836      DellXPS8920,DellXPS8700,JanetsLaptop 
        DellXPS8700   Desktop 18363.836      DellXPS8920,DellXPS8700,JanetsLaptop 
        DellXPS137000 Laptop  18363.836      DellXPS8920,DellXPS8700,JanetsLaptop 
        JanetsLaptop  Laptop  18363.836      DellXPS8920,DellXPS8700,JanetsLaptop
        

        All machines connected via ethernet cable using giga-bit adapters over Cat5e cable.

        Services: FunctionDiscoveryProviderHost (fdPHost) &
        FunctionDiscoveryResourcePublication (FDResPub) set to start Automatically on all machines.

        You’ll notice that none of the machines enumerated the DellXPS137000 including itself.

        Now all of the machines can access the DellXPS137000 by typing \\DellXPS137000 into
        File Explorer’s address line and once you do that it then shows up in the Network
        heading in the left pane of FE.

        So my question is why won’t it just show up with out this extra step.

        Additional Info: all machines are configured for PowerShell Remoting and all can
        be reached to execute PS commands remotely.

        Ideas?

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

        • #2264692 Reply
          RDRguy
          AskWoody Lounger

          Just a wild guess here but could there be a machine name character length limit of 12 somewhere in Windows fdPHost and/or FDResPub code which causes it not to work as expected?

          How about temporarily changing the machine name from DellXPS137000 to DellXPS13700 to test?

          Win7 - PRO & Ultimate, x64 & x86
          Win8.1 - PRO, x64 & x86
          Groups A, B & ABS

          • #2264699 Reply
            GoneToPlaid
            AskWoody Plus

            I don’t think that this is the issue. For decades, the max length for a computer name on a network is 15 characters.

        • #2264697 Reply
          cyberSAR
          AskWoody Plus

          I’ve noticed this on just about all our networks. Haven’t spent much time on it since we have shortcuts set to the network shares they use. Also notice that the longer the machines are up the better the results. Again, haven’t spent much time trying to figure it out because it works as we need.

          • #2264706 Reply
            cyberSAR
            AskWoody Plus

            Just checked my machine which has always shown all devices. Today nothing but a network printer shows up. Yesterday I replaced my router and was setting up another access point for a client. On and Off, checking different IP settings etc. All machines/devices are still accessible though. Wondering if it may be something to do with the master browser election????

      • #2264700 Reply
        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Plus

        What seems like ages ago, I tested my home Win7 network with SMBv1 disabled. Occasionally most things worked, yet for some inexplicable reason one or computers suddenly could not see each other on the network. I made sure that all network settings on all of my Win7 computers were identical. I finally gave up and re-enabled SMBv1 on all of my computers. I am not worried about SMBv1 being enabled. If something gets past my hard and soft firewalls, then I will restore all from offline backups. Restoring from offline backups is the only way to be sure that an infected computer has been sanitized.

      • #2264710 Reply
        jayinalaska
        AskWoody Plus

        I’ve done a little research on this. Networking isn’t my strong suit, so I’m not sure how much of this I really understand, but here goes.

        First, on the problem machine, if you open Settings -> Network and Internet -> Sharing options, are both the “Turn on network discovery” and “Turn on file and printer sharing” options selected. I’m certain the network discovery option must be turned on, but not sure on the file and printer sharing. When I’ve clicked on “Network” in File Explorer, I sometimes get a warning that the machine won’t be discoverable if file sharing is disabled. This happens if the “file and printer sharing” option is off. If both of those options are on, then read on.

        Even in Windows 10, for work group (not domain) networking, there stills exists a Master Browser, a machine that maintains the list of the other peers of the work group on the network segment. There is some arcane election process that happens whereby the machines on the network segment determine which one is going to be the Master Browser. This is all still based on the old, old, old NetBIOS protocol.

        I’ve read that Windows 10 doesn’t play nicely with this. In fact, if a Windows 10 machine becomes the Master Browser, more likely than not, it won’t show up in the “Network” section of File Explorer on any machine. I suspect your misbehaving machine has become the Master Browser.

        To test this, run the nbtstat command on one of your machines. I don’t think it matters which one. Run nbtstat -A XXX.XXX.XXX.XXXwhere XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX is the IP address of the problem machine. In the output that comes back, if one of the entries has “__MSBROWSE__” in it, then that machine is the Master Browser. Note: there are some special characters I don’t know how to produce here that are part of the “__MSBROWSE__” string.

        I don’t tend to have this problem because I have a NAS server on my LAN and it wins all the browser elections. If you have a server or a non Windows 10 machine that you can force to become the Master Browser, great. There are ways to try and influence this process, but I’d have to try and find them again. It’s been a long time since I had to do that. If you don’t have such a machine available, I don’t know if I can help you.

        Hope this helps.

        • #2264728 Reply
          GoneToPlaid
          AskWoody Plus

          This is the same issue I had with my Win7 computers when SMBv1 was disabled. Whichever Win7 computer became the new Master Browser would become invisible on the network when the current Win7 computer which is the Master Browser was rebooted.

        • #2264924 Reply
          RetiredGeek
          AskWoody MVP

          Jay,

          The problem machine is at 192.168.1.123. (DellXPS137000)
          My main machine is at 192.168.1.116.        (DellXPS8920)
          My MyBookLive NAS is at 192.168.1.10.

          Here’s the results of the nbtstat command:

          C:\WINDOWS\system32>nbtstat -A 192.168.1.10
          
          Npcap Loopback Adapter:
          Node IpAddress: [169.254.165.151] Scope Id: []
          
              Host not found.
          
          Ethernet:
          Node IpAddress: [192.168.1.116] Scope Id: []
          
                     NetBIOS Remote Machine Name Table
          
                 Name               Type         Status
              ---------------------------------------------
              MYBOOKLIVE     <00>  UNIQUE      Registered
              MYBOOKLIVE     <03>  UNIQUE      Registered
              MYBOOKLIVE     <20>  UNIQUE      Registered
              ☺☻__MSBROWSE__☻<01>  GROUP       Registered
              HOME           <1D>  UNIQUE      Registered
              HOME           <1E>  GROUP       Registered
              HOME           <00>  GROUP       Registered
          
              MAC Address = 00-00-00-00-00-00
          
          
          Bluetooth Network Connection 3:
          Node IpAddress: [0.0.0.0] Scope Id: []
          
              Host not found.
          
          Wi-Fi:
          Node IpAddress: [0.0.0.0] Scope Id: []
          
              Host not found.
          
          Local Area Connection* 10:
          Node IpAddress: [0.0.0.0] Scope Id: []
          
              Host not found.
          
          Local Area Connection* 11:
          Node IpAddress: [0.0.0.0] Scope Id: []
          
              Host not found.
          
          C:\WINDOWS\system32>
          

          It would appear that the MyBookLive is the Master Browser not the problem machine and would also explain why the MyBookLive doesn’t show up under newtwork with SMBv1 disabled but does with it enabled. It’s the one thing that never gets turned off!

          Still confused why the DellXPS137000 does not show up. 😎

          May the Forces of good computing be with you!

          RG

          PowerShell & VBA Rule!
          Computer Specs

          • #2265170 Reply
            jayinalaska
            AskWoody Plus

            RG,

            You may have already done some of these; sorry if I repeat:

            1. On the problem machine, is the network type still “Private”? This should show up on the Network & Internet Status page. My active connection type is “Ethernet” and directly below that it says “Private network”. If your machine has somehow changed to “Public” or “Guest”, this would explain the problem and you’d need to switch back to “Private”.
            2. Have you double-checked to make sure the “Workgroup” name hasn’t changed, somehow, and is still the same as the setting for the other machines. This is really unlikely. You probably are just using the default value of “WORKGROUP”. You can check this under “Control Panel -> System and Security -> System”.
            3. Does your version of Win10 still have HomeGroups enabled? If so, are those settings still the same across all of your machines?
            4. Have you checked the firewall settings on the problem machine? Maybe something changed somehow? Also, if you use a third party firewall, some of those have “Stealth” settings for the network adapters that will block SMB traffic. If you have one of those, maybe an update turned it on.
            5. Have you tried running the “Shared Folders” troubleshooter? As I was writing this, I wondered if there might be a troubleshooter to try. I’ve never used it before, so I don’t know if it will help you at all. Go to “Settings -> Update & Security -> Troubleshoot”. Others might be worth trying.

            That’s all I can think of for now since the Master Browser theory didn’t hold water. Good luck.

      • #2264993 Reply
        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody_MVP

        So what changed, I poked around for a while and discovered that the SMBv1 protocol was disabled, the new default as of 1803 I think. So I turned SMBv1 back on and no errors!

        1803 was the first W10 version which had SMBv1 disabled by default. I discovered this because the main file server at one of my customer’s sites is really old and requires SMBv1. As I understand it, Microsoft began disabling SMBv1 due to security concerns. So whenever I set up a new computer for them (or do a clean install of Windows), the first thing I do, before putting the computer on the domain, is enable SMBv1. Everything is fine once I have done that one task.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
      • #2265197 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        Y’all ain’t gonna believe this!

        I found the culprit and it ain’t software but rather hardware.

        Last night I found this on the Web and decided to give it a try.

        Justin Emb Replied on June 21, 2018
        •	Microsoft Agent 
        Microsoft is aware of reports that devices running Windows 10 version 1803 cannot connect to other devices on their home network and is investigating the issue.
        You can resolve this problem by setting some services to Automatic (Delayed Start) and restarting Windows:
        1.	Press the Windows Key and R at the same time to bring up the Run dialog.
        2.	Type services.msc in the Run dialog and press Enter.
        3.	For each of the following services, locate the service in list, right-click the service and select Properties.  Then set the Startup type to Automatic (Delayed Start) and select Apply.
        •	Computer Browser (Browser) –No longer exists in the Services.msc application. You can get to it via Powershell Get-Service -Name Browser, however, you can not change it! Attempts to change StartType result in “Browser does not exist as an installed service.”
        •	Function Discovery Provider Host (FDPHost) – (was Automatic)
        •	Function Discovery Resource Publication (FDResPub) - (was Automatic)
        •	Network Connections (NetMan) – (was Manual)
        •	UPnP Device Host (UPnPHost) – (was Manual)
        •	Peer Name Resolution Protocol (PNRPSvc) – (was Manual
        •	Peer Networking Grouping (P2PSvc) – (was Manual)
        •	Peer Networking Identity Manager (P2PIMSvc) – (was Manual)
        4.	Restart Windows.
        
        Comments:	This is did NOT solve the problem with the DellXPS137000 not enumerating. It did seem to make sure all the other machines enumerated, which they did not upon last full shutdown and re-boot.
        

        At this point I gave it up for the night. Of course you know how it is when you’re trying to get to sleep and the problem just won’t get out of your head! Well I went over and over what was different about the DellXPS137000 and the only thing I could come up with was that it did not have an Ethernet port (RJ-45) like most modern slim laptops. I had hooked up Ethernet via USB 3 adapter:
        20200523_1924101
        So I thought what if I connected via WI-FI instead? Well sure enough that solved the problem now all the machines enumerate properly in File Explorer. If I hook up the Ethernet again no more enumeration! The really weird part here is my Wife’s laptop uses the same system, but a different adapter, to hook up to Ethernet and it has always enumerated properly, go figure.
        FlePow
        So I guess this time MS gets a pass and the system does work w/o SMBv1 (although it still doesn’t enumerate the Western Digital My Book Live but it’s old & I can live with that!).

        You’ll notice that the adapter on my Wife’s machine is USB-C so I can’t test it on the DellXPS137000 as it has no USB-C nor do I have a USB-C to USB-A adapter.

        Thanks everyone for all your suggestions. If anyone has any idea why this adapter causes a problem I’d love to hear about it. 😎

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

        • This reply was modified 6 days, 1 hour ago by RetiredGeek.
        • This reply was modified 6 days, 1 hour ago by RetiredGeek.
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        • #2265208 Reply
          RetiredGeek
          AskWoody MVP

          BTW: After I posted I thought well maybe I can find a better driver? NOT!
          I found one on the Plugable website from 2018. Installed it w/o change (it was dated 2016 BTW).
          Had Windows search for driver update came up with 2019 driver. No love here either.

          Cheers 😎

          May the Forces of good computing be with you!

          RG

          PowerShell & VBA Rule!
          Computer Specs

      • #2265248 Reply
        Paul T
        AskWoody MVP

        If anyone has any idea why this adapter causes a problem

        Are you using the same USB3 to ethernet adapter in both machines, or is the adapter built into the USB3 hub? Do they use the same ethernet driver?

        cheers, Paul

      • #2265292 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        Paul,

        Thanks for getting the gears working again!  Yes the Ethernet adapter is builtin to the USB 3.0 hub in both cases. What I hadn’t thought to do was test the apparently malfunctioning adapter on my Wife’s machine since it does have USB 3.0 type A ports. Guess what it worked on her machine! So what is going on here? I checked the driver information and it was a 2016 driver. What haven’t I tried on the DellXPS137000? Well I didn’t uninstall the driver on the DellXPS137000, so Uninstall & delete drivers, reboot. Guess what it works! Must have been something glitched with the driver software.

        But wait…there’s more!

        Reboot again and it’s back to not working. Driver hasn’t changed. Rinse, wash, repeat. Delete the adapter & drivers, reboot, works, reboot, doesn’t work!

        After checking my wife’s machine again I realized that the Hub with the Ethernet adapter is plugged into the hub that’s USB-C {picture in previous post}, yeah I can test this hub on the DellXPS137000. Move it over Install works, reboot it doesn’t work…grrrrrrr!

        While back at my wife’s machine the once malfunctioning USB3.0 hub with Ethernet adapter is happily working away after multiple reboots.

        Although I’m loathe to do it this may call for a reinstall of Windows. I surely don’t know anything else to try. 😎

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

        • #2265378 Reply
          Elly
          AskWoody MVP

          So… my non-techy brain had to deal with a USB connection recently… and had a ‘it works’ and ‘it doesn’t work’ experience.

          What I found was that in Device Manager, under the Universal Serial Bus, that the USB root hub, under Properties, has a tab called Power Management, and there is a check box for ‘Allow the computer to turn this device off to save power’, that was apparently checked by default (I unchecked it, as I needed it to stay on, no matter what the computer thought).

          This may not have anything to do with your problem, but, just in case, I thought I’d mention it. It is much easier than a reinstall.

          Non-techy Win 10 Pro and Linux Mint experimenter

      • #2265405 Reply
        Paul T
        AskWoody MVP

        Uninstall the adapter, take a registry snapshot, install, snapshot, reboot, compare…

        cheers, Paul

      • #2265510 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        Well, yesterday I bit the bullet Imaged my drive and did a Windows Refresh. Unfortunately, the problem persists. Restored the drive.

        @Paul-T in view of this I don’t see where comparing the registry is of any value, but I may give it a go anyway.

        My current thinking is it must be something in the BIOS as the device works when Windows installs it (which happens after boot) but fails after a reboot (BIOS is read again). What say you all? 😎

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

      • #2265915 Reply
        Paul T
        AskWoody MVP

        As it changes at reboot I though it may be a detection / change made by Windows. Using a registry monitor may find anything that is updated at boot and give you a clue / allow you to revert.

        cheers, Paul

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2266973 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        And the saga continues…

        Well I thought I was seeing things May 26th when all my machines started to PROPERLY enumerate drives in File Explorer. Can this really be, since the last time I shut them all down it was definitely NOT working properly. So I gave it a couple of days and things were honkey dorey!

        Then last night (27 May) I installed 2004 on my test machine (Imaged it first of course). Boom the test machine would no longer enumerate! Was I seeing things? Maybe, better check.
        FYI: I checked all the services and settings in 2004 and they were correct for enumeration.

        So I imaged 2004 and restored 1909 and once again the Network is enumerating properly.

        Go Figure! If this covid-19 doesn’t drive me nuts Windows may! LOL 😎

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

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    Reply To: 1809 and SMBv1 – Still not fully fixed [RESOLVED?]

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