A few questions about a new laptop

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Good  morning. I have been looking into a new laptop for a week or so to replace my Win 7 Thinkpad (which I love, BTW). I have several questions, but the first is this. Some of the ones I am looking at say this:

Windows 10 Pro 64 preinstalled through downgrade rights in Windows 11 Pro 64

So – does that mean that it has a license for Win 11 but comes with Win 10 and I can upgrade it to 11 if I want to?

Many of the new ones seem to come with Win 11 – so would it be better just to go with one that already has 11 installed, or is this Win 10 preinstalled option something to consider?

I also have been looking for one that has an SC card slot – but none of those in the 13″ range seem to have that. (I did find a Dell Latitude that has that option, but over $2200 and that is a bit steep). In the case of no SC card slot, would an old USB card reader device that I have work with the new types of USB ports?

I started with Lenovo since I love the Thinkpad and would like to stay as close to that as I can. I also considered Dell – and possibly HP, but we have an HP Envy that I am not wild about, so HP may be out.

I did get a refurbished Dell a year or two ago and had a bad experience. I did send it back for a refund, but I am reluctant to even consider a refurb again.

And – if I am getting into the $1700+ range – would it be “better” to also look into a Macbook?

My few basic requirements if anyone might have some insight into other mfrs besides Lenovo or Dell:

• 13″ range – no larger than 14″
• at least 16GB RAM – 32 is better
• at least a 512 SSD
• backlit keyboard
• black if possible
• processor – faster is obviously better

Thanks for any input. I have just started thinking about this as the Thinkpad I have still is going strong, but I know that it needs to be replace eventually, and thought I’d see if there were any Labor Day deals out there that might east the pain of buying a new one.

 

 

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LHiggins wrote:

So – does that mean that it has a license for Win 11 but comes with Win 10 and I can upgrade it to 11 if I want to?

Yes, that’s exactly what it means. A digital licence valid for both Windows 10 and 11 will be stored on a Microsoft activation server when you first connect the laptop to the internet.

LHiggins wrote:

My few basic requirements if anyone might have some insight into other mfrs besides Lenovo or Dell…

These are your *hardware* requirements. What are your *usage* requirements, i.e. what is it going to be used for? The intended usage tends to be the main driver for deciding hardware requirements.

To give a silly example, if it’s only to be used for playing ‘Microsoft Solitaire’ then your hardware requirements are well overspecified. You could get away with much less, thus pay much less.

Conversely, if it’s primarily going to be used for CAD, video editing or gaming then the graphics capability may be the most important factor in your decision.

As for “processor – faster is obviously better”, this isn’t necessarily true. If your primary need was ‘longest battery life possible’ then often a less powerful processor (and GPU) may give better results.

So, your choice should, IMO, begin with your computing needs… and let the hardware be determined by your answers.

Hope this helps…

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LHiggins

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Hi Rick and thanks! Yes – what I use it for is a good consideration. Guess I am used to just going for the “most” that I can get at the time, but you may be right – I may not really “need” all of that now.

First off – the RAM and storage – I just wanted to be sure that I had enough to eventually run Win 11 and not have it slow down or get laggy. I upgraded my Thinkpad to 16 GB RAM a few years back because it was so slow – much better now with the additional RAM. And I used to run Linux on it from an external SSD – so I felt the extra RAM was a help there.

OK – right now, I generally use it for email (Thunderbird), internet – FF and/or Chrome – sometimes 15-16 tabs open at a time, some LibreOffice docs – creating and saving, some photo editing – usually using Paint, occasional YouTubes, music. Probably if I had a newer laptop, I might branch out into some other things, but I think that is basically it.

LHiggins wrote:

I also have been looking for one that has an SC card slot – but none of those in the 13″ range seem to have that. (I did find a Dell Latitude that has that option, but over $2200 and that is a bit steep). In the case of no SC card slot, would an old USB card reader device that I have work with the new types of USB ports?

This would be because of moving the photos from my camera on the SD card and the editing I might want to do.

I also guess the number and type of USB ports is a consideration – I do use a USB mouse, so I’d need one USB dedicated to that. Tried a bluetooth mouse on my HP and that wasn’t very successful.

I have given some thought to a Chromebook off and on, but wasn’t sure if I could do the word processing and photo things on it that I do now.

I’ll do some more thinking about what I might want to use it for and see if that will help guide me to a more affordable choice!

Thanks again!!

ETA – and just to add, my internet connections is a T-Mobile hotspot device, so it would need to be compatible with that, too!

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Just a few comments.

I have found bluetooth mice to be generally problematic. I would stick with a usb mouse.

Too bad about your experience with a refurbished Dell. Did you get it from the Dell refurbished site? https://www.dellrefurbished.com/. I’ve purchased 2 Latitude e5450 14 inch laptops from them and they have been rock solid for the 2 years and over 3 years I’ve had them.

If ports are important to you and you’re tempted by a MacBook, pay close attention to the ports, both type and number. IMHO, they go for style over function and will generally have far too few ports and often of only the latest kind. That may force you into buying a bunch of adapters and/or a docking gizmo.

I have an iMAC and a macBook Air, both with 8 GB RAM, and IMHO 8GB is just not enough for a Mac. It’s extremely easy to overload them and then they just gum up. Email and general casual web surfing are OK, but anything beyond that, you’ll want 16GB – then be prepared to pay!

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LHiggins

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Perhaps think about how often you transfer photos via SD (SDHC?) card. How important is this to you compared to regularity?

A point I didn’t address (which @DrBonzo did) is the issue of refurbished equipment. It’s a shame you had a bad experience. I don’t have the money to buy new and, bar 2 occasions, have *always* bought refurbished.

The 2 occasions I’ve bought new (2 Samsung 17″ laptops) are an experience I never want to repeat. (I’ve still got them… not that I would ever use them.)

I’ve bought lots of refurbished kit and, without exception, have always been pleased with the results.

Several years ago I bought a Xeon-powered tower with 32GB RAM from an authorised  refurbisher for an absurdly low amount of money. It’s been used as a kind of Windows 10 server for the last ~5 years with daily (and silent) regularity. It still rocks in its processing power when I need it to transcode video in addition to just serving files from its multiple drive bays.

Nearly 4 years ago I took a gamble and purchased 4 Dell Latitude E7450s laptops from an auction of airline ‘left luggage’ items. There was no opportunity to power them up because their internal drives had been removed (?) and no guarantee that they worked (‘cos they couldn’t be powered on due to missing power supplies). I got all 4 for a song and am still using 3 today. I love Dell laptops… the Latitude business range is *really* sturdy IMO. I’m typing this on one of them, another sits next to me trancoding MKV files to MP4 and the third is a test machine. (The fourth sacrificed itself as a donor of various parts to its siblings. RIP)

So… perhaps not a very useful anecdote, but I think your poor experience of refurbished kit is unusual. I *always* use suppliers within the Microsoft Authorised Refurbisher program (except for my mad auction purchase… which worked out well for me).

PS – I also *love* ThinkPads. Rock solid and utterly dependable IME (despite ownership change in 2005 from IBM to Lenovo).

Hope this helps…

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LHiggins

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DrBonzo wrote:

Too bad about your experience with a refurbished Dell. Did you get it from the Dell refurbished site? https://www.dellrefurbished.com/. I’ve purchased 2 Latitude e5450 14 inch laptops from them and they have been rock solid for the 2 years and over 3 years I’ve had them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rick Corbett wrote:

I’ve bought lots of refurbished kit and, without exception, have always been pleased with the results.

Thanks to you both for the replies. I did purchase a Dell from the Dell Refurbished site and had high hopes for it since it has everything I wanted, and a great price. There just was an issue with it getting any updates and running consistently, and they were great about taking it back and refunding my money. So, I am a bit wary of a refurbished one, but I should probably give them another look before I make a decision.

Rick Corbett wrote:

Microsoft’s *minimum’ hardware requirement for Windows 11 include 4GB RAM/64GB storage. Your hardware requirements of 16GB RAM/>512GB storage appear to be ample for the usage you describe.

Yes, I would never try to run an OS on the minimum requirements, and the RAM is probably one of my top requirements. I’d get used to a slightly larger model if it has the RAM I wanted.

I may also go ahead and dig out that old SD card reader and try it with my other HP laptop to see if it would work with the USB 3.0 ports on that one. That might give me an idea of whether that is such an important feature. The HP has an SD card reader, so I could always use that and port the images over to my laptop on a thumb drive if need be.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions. I am going to keep looking. I am so reluctant to give this Thinkpad up and have been trying to keep it going with Win 7 as long as I can. Maybe it is too soon to replace it, but I am also getting wary of something suddenly happening and having to be rushed into a decision.

Your advice definitely helped me thinking through this!

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LHiggins wrote:

First off – the RAM and storage – I just wanted to be sure that I had enough to eventually run Win 11 and not have it slow down or get laggy.

Microsoft’s *minimum’ hardware requirement for Windows 11 include 4GB RAM/64GB storage.

Your hardware requirements of 16GB RAM/>512GB storage appear to be ample for the usage you describe.

Hope this helps…

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LHiggins

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Rick Corbett wrote:

the Latitude business range is *really* sturdy IMO.

I can attest to this. My former company issues Dell Latitudes to all of it’s mobile workers.

My last laptop purchase 2 years ago was a certified refurbished Dell Latitude with Windows 10 Professional pre-installed. It’s sturdy and rock solid. More so than Dell’s consumer based Inspiron line.

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LHiggins

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So – after hearing about the positive reports of refurbished laptops – has anyone had any experience with a Lenovo refurbished Thinkpad directly from the Lenovo Outlet?

Thanks!

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LHiggins wrote:

So – after hearing about the positive reports of refurbished laptops – has anyone had any experience with a Lenovo refurbished Thinkpad directly from the Lenovo Outlet?

Not from the Lenovo Outlet itself but 18 months ago I did buy a refurbished 13″ Lenovo Thinkpad X1 (8th Gen i7, 16GB RAM, 512GB NVMe SSD) from a MAR as a Xmas gift (to myself).

For those that aren’t familiar, Lenovo apparently calls it a ‘Slate’ and its manual calls it a ‘2-in-1 detachable computer’.

It was then about 3 years old (2018 Gen 3 model) and obviously well-used (shiny patch in the middle of the touchpad and scratch marks on the base, i.e. the bottom of the keyboard) but works absolutely perfectly.

Like:

• It’s VERY fast and responsive in operation overall and puts my Dell laptops to shame.
• Its touchscreen is pinsharp and similarly responsive.
• Wi-Fi transfer speed is consistently faster than my Dell laptops.
• Tablet mode (with its keyboard detached) is really awesome, a very firm favourite with 4-yr-old for her edu-games.
• Battery life is very good, especially considering it’s secondhand and has a touchcreen.
• Sturdy! It’s been dropped several times and even thrown on one occasion – don’t ask – but remains unfazed (…just more scratches). At the very least I expected the stylus holster to snap off… but no, it’s very flexible. I’m impressed.
• Devious wee 4-yr-old can’t sneakily try to use it without Mummy’s fingerprint. 🙂
• Totally silent in operation and has never got warm enough to disturb/harm 4-yr-old’s bare legs – even after several hours use – as she rests it in her favourite position on her lap.
• Its stylus is excellent for those with fat fingers, like me. 🙁
• I wasn’t aware that you could boot from a USB stick in a third-party USB-C multiport adapter plugged into this 2-in-1 tablet/laptop… but I am now!

Not keen:

• Its tiny power button is difficult to find by touch alone… I always have to look for it.
• Limited keyboard feedback. To keep its form factor as slim as possible the keys have extremely short travel. I much prefer the keyboards on my Dell laptops… much more tactile. My daughter (touch typist amongst her many other skills) says the problem is my fat fingers as she has no problem at all… as I’ve seen.
• Its stylus apparently has no power-saving. We hid it from 4-yr-old and when we came to use it, its tiny AAAA battery was flat despite no usage at all.
• Its charging port is half-way up the left hand side of the screen. The power cord looks ugly when in place and is vulnerable to being knocked. I accept that there’s no way the port could be on the keyboard base (which is just over a quarter of an inch thick) but I would have preferred the port to be bottom left or bottom right of the screen to make it less vulnerable to an accidental knock. As a result, 4-yr-old is only ever allowed to use it on battery, never on mains power. (Its single USB-C port is even higher, same side. Ughh! But, having said that, it’s probably only me that ever uses it… and very rarely.)

Neither good nor bad… but worth noting:

• Power-throttling under battery power is noticeable at boot. It’s a bit disconcerting that it takes 30 seconds to boot on battery when it’s so quick to boot on mains power. I haven’t yet found a way to change this behaviour and it’s not noticeable once it has booted. (I just used 50% power balance irrespective of whether it was plugged in or not.)
• The stylus holster is low down on the right-hand side of the screen. When holstered the stylus covers the volume controls completely. Duh!
• It only has a single USB-C port. Luckily it came with a nifty StarTech DKT30CSDHPD USB-C multiport adapter with 2 x USB, 1 x Ethernet, 1 x HDMI, 1 x SD and 1 x USB-C pass-through ports… so not lacking in connectivity.
• 
• It has a tray on the top left-hand side for both microSD and nano-SIM cards… but it’s much easier to put microSD cards in an SD adapter and pop the adapter into the StarTech multiport adapter than faff about with the built-in tray.
• I also note that apparently it’s not compatible with Windows 11 because TPM is not usable (“PCR7 binding is not supported”? What’s that all about?). I need to look into this more… but, to be honest, not being able to ‘upgrade’ to Windows 11 is no great loss to me anyway. 🙂

Would I buy it again?:

• For my daughter/granddaughter? – Yes, in a heartbeat. It proved such an immediate hit (particularly with CBeebies educational games) that a few weeks later I took back my Dell Latitude E7450 laptop and let them keep the Lenovo Thinkpad X1. They absolutely adore it.
• For me? – After careful consideration, no. The 13″ screen is just a fraction too small for my tired old eyes and after a few hours use I realise they much prefer at least 14″ or more in a laptop at a resolution of 1366 x 768 (my Dell), not 13″ at 3000 x 2000 (even at 250% scaling).

Conclusion:

I love it… but, unfortunately, my old eyes and fat fingers don’t. YMMV

Hope this helps…

P.S. – It’s back with me right now until tomorrow for a version change/clean install from 1909 to 20H2 (it’s locked down.).

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LHiggins

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Hi Rick and thanks so much for the very comprehensive review of the Lenovo Thinkpad X1. You have given me a lot to think about! First off – it is good to know that a refurbished Lenovo has – and continues to – perform well. I am going to take a look at the offerings at the Lenovo Outlet, and a closer look at the new ones, too!

I also hadn’t given much though to a 2-in1 type, but after reading your review, I am going to give that some consideration! And your thoughts on a slightly larger one are helpful, too. My “old eyes” might benefit from a 14″, but I do love the size of the 13″ – seems to just fit anywhere I decide to put it.

I  was so glad to see your recommendation of the miniport adapter. It has both SD and micro SD card slots, and would be great as an alternative to both expand the USB capabilities and allow for the use of the SD card if I find a laptop that doesn’t come with one. Thanks for that – I didn’t realize that those adapters can have additional connections like the SD slot.

One model that I did look at a bit this morning is the Lenove Thinkpad L13 Gen 2 – it seems to be a “newer” Thinkpad model and quite customizible.

As to Windows 11 – I do have a question. I’m really not looking to get a Win 11 one, but I do think that either having “Windows 10 Pro 64 preinstalled through downgrade rights in Windows 11 Pro 64” might be something to try to get if it is a new one, since that way I’d know for sure that the laptop would be able to run Win 11 when the time comes. I would want to plan on keeping it a long while – my Thinkpad now is about 10 years old – and while I could keep it on Win 10 – I know that sooner or later, it would need to be upgraded. Guess if it is a refurb, I should check the specs carefully.

Thanks again for the great information – I feel a lot better about the possibility of finding a refurbished one – or maybe looking at other options for a new one, too.

And – I loved your description of your 4-year-old granddaughter using it – she sounds quite an accomplished. Don’t you think that the younger generations are just born with a computing gene that we don’t have?

All of this has been very helpful in giving me some ideas on what to consider and some options to start looking into! Thanks so much!!

 

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If an OEM ships a unit with Windows 11 they should have tested it pretty thoroughly with Windows 11. I’d recommend you stick with Windows 11. Learn it. If you find something you don’t like about how it operates ask here or look for a third-party program to do what you want. There are many free ones around. There are also quite a few around for a reasonable amount of money. You can always ask here for an opinion about a program.

--Joe

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LHiggins

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So, I think I am narrowing it down to either a Thinkpad X13 or a Thinkpad L13. I’ve been looking at the refurbs at the Lenovo Outlet, too, and a few questions have come to mind that maybe someone here might have some ideas on.

First – as to the choice between Windows 10 Pro and Windows 11 Pro  – or one with Win 10 but with the rights to Win 11 down the road – I have been thinking about the initial set up of each of those. I’ve read around here at AW and wondered if there is a guide to set up for Win 11 that is similar to AKB2000016: Guide for Windows Update Settings for Windows 10. Or will basically following that guide work with either a new Win 10 or a Win 11?

joep517 wrote:

If an OEM ships a unit with Windows 11 they should have tested it pretty thoroughly with Windows 11. I’d recommend you stick with Windows 11. Learn it. If you find something you don’t like about how it operates ask here or look for a third-party program to do what you want.

Thanks for that good advice – and something else to look into.

I was also a bit troubled this morning to see the Susan’s post about the way to now bypass a Microsoft account setup in 22H2. I haven’t ever had a MS account and don’t want to start now with either the Win 10 laptop I have now or a new one if I get a new Win 10 – both will need to be upgraded eventually to 22H2. Would just starting out with a Win 11 avoid that, or are there issue with an MS account in starting out with a Win 11? I’ll take a close look at Installing Windows 11 without a Microsoft account if that still applies.

I also had a few questions about the battery. My Win 7 Thinkpad has a removable battery and I have actually had to replace that battery at least once in the time I’ve had it. If the battery is enclosed – how does it get replaced if need be?

I may give Lenovo a call with some questions on specifics when I do narrow it down.

Thanks for any input and ideas! And Happy Labor Day weekend to those in the US!

 

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LHiggins wrote:

I also had a few questions about the battery. My Win 7 Thinkpad has a removable battery and I have actually had to replace that battery at least once in the time I’ve had it. If the battery is enclosed – how does it get replaced if need be?

The simply fact is, manufacturers started doing this because they want to you replace your laptop/tablet/phone with a new one every few years.

They no longer provide an “easy” way to replace the battery as a means of ensuring that, when the battery starts to die (which typically happens within 3-4 years), “most” users will option to buy a new device instead of dealing with the hassle of trying to replace the battery!

As for replacing an internal battery DIY, that depends on exactly how the manufacturer mounted their internal battery.

If you can find a source for a new battery (not always a given) and if you can get the device’s outer case opened without damaging it (also not always a given) then…

• The batteries in some manufacturer’s devices are fairly easy to replace.

• On the other hand, some manufacturers seem to go “out-of-their-way” to ensure trying to replace the battery would pretty much destroy the device.

A good place to check how easy/hard it is to do this for a particular device is iFixit.

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Thanks! Yes – it is very discouraging that manufacturers continue to find ways to get us to spend our money – LOL! So – is getting a type of battery replacement “warranty” with the new laptop worth it? I think it adds an additional $30 or so for a 3-year replacement. If most batteries start to go after 3 years, maybe having that warranty and seeing about getting it replaced at around the 2 1/2 year mark would at least extend it for a few more years?

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LHiggins wrote:

one with Win 10 but with the rights to Win 11 down the road

Every Windows 10 has the right to Windows 11 (Windows 12…).
You will be able to upgrade if your Windows 10 pass windows 11 compatibly test (there are workarounds).

I was also a bit troubled this morning to see the Susan’s post about the way to now bypass a Microsoft account setup in 22H2

Once you setup local account on Windows 10/11 Windows update 22H2 won’t force Microsoft account.

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LHiggins

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alejr wrote:

If you can find a source for a new battery (not always a given) and if you can get the device’s outer case opened without damaging it (also not always a given) then… • The batteries in some manufacturer’s devices are fairly easy to replace. • On the other hand, some manufacturers seem to go “out-of-their-way” to ensure trying to replace the battery would pretty much destroy the device.

That’s why I decided that I am a Dell Latitude customer for life. The model I have is a breeze to open and access things like the battery, hard drive, and RAM. Plus Dell still offers batteries for my 2015 era Latitude. The Dell owners manual shows detailed instructions for removing and installing just about everything inside the case, from the keyboard and display panel down to and including the System Board. So user serviceability is something that they apparently care about. But finding spare parts for this old unit might not be as easy as finding batteries. 🙂

My last laptop was an Acer Aspire, and my words for their design are not as kind. My efforts to swap a hard drive in that unit ended up destroying it. And I’m generally not a PC dummy, as I have been building desktops for 20 years.

I would hope that Thinkpads being based on legacy IBM DNA are more like Dells. But I have no personal experience to share on Lenovo.

 

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LHiggins

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Nice when you find a brand that you really love! The Dell battery sounds like it is pretty easy to deal with. I found a manual for the Thinkpad and they clearly state: “Do not attempt to remove or replace the built-in rechargeable battery. Replacement of the battery must be done by a Lenovo-authorized repair facility or technician” – so that’s a drawback.

I’m not one to do much fiddling with the inside of the computers – the most I’ve done is add RAM, so I’m not sure if I could replace an internal battery in any case. Though that does have me thinking about checking into how hard or easy it would be for the Win 10 HP Envy that we have – it also has an internal battery.

I also wondered about the processors available. I am looking into two different models of the Thinkpad L13, along with a few X13s. Those 2 L13s have different processors – one uses AMD and one Intel. How similar – or different would these processors be?

11th Generation Intel® Core™ i5-1135G7 Processor

(2.40 GHz, up to 4.20 GHz with Turbo Boost, 4 Cores, 8 Threads, 8 MB Cache)

Or

AMD Ryzen™ 5 Pro 5675U Processor
(2.30 GHz, up to 4.30 GHz Max Boost, 6 Cores, 12 Threads, 16 MB Cache)

The AMD looks like it is “better” – but I have no experience with AMD and don’t know if they are even comparable.

When I configure the two – the one with the AMD is a little less expensive – all other components being equal. There are other choices for each, but not sure if that would make too much of a difference.

I also chatted with Lenovo sales today – they weren’t much help and were mainly interested in getting me to place an order – not really answering my questions about warranty and returns. Hopefully that’s not a sign of how their support would be – though I have to say that I’ve really had good luck with my old Thinkpad and never really needed any support for it.

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And just to add – the one with the AMD processor comes with Win 11 Pro – no option for Win 10, if that also makes a difference.

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