Adventures with UEFI

[bbearren]

As I said in this post,

I won’t have time until the weekend, but I have another Windows 8 Pro Upgrade I bought last week while the price was still right, and my laptop is EFI capable. I’ll try some combinations, take some notes, and post the aftermath.

After making fresh images of my partitions/logical drives on my laptop, I tried to enable EFI. After clicking that radio button in BIOS, I immediately got an error message “no boot device”. My drive is formatted MBR, and EFI only works with GPT. Conundrum #1.

I put my Dell Windows 7 Pro SP1 x64 OEM installation disk in the drive (Dell ships a full install disk with the laptop if requested, at no extra charge), shut down the laptop, and then started it again, and got back into BIOS. This time when I clicked the EFI radio button, my CD/DVD drive appeared as a device, and I put a check in the box, clicked apply, and Exit. The laptop booted into the Windows 7 Pro setup. When there is no disk in the CD/DVD drive, it is not an eligible EFI boot device – must have media. When setup had progressed to the point of selecting a partition for installation, I used Shift +F10 to get a command prompt, then typed in “diskpart”.

Using diskpart, I cleaned my MBR drive, then converted it to GPT, created a 102MB EFI partition and a 32MB MSR partition. From what I’ve read, those two are necessary for booting from a GPT drive. Next I created a couple of 60GB partitions, and selected the first of those to install Windows 7 Pro.

That went well. I didn’t bother with any personalization, since I intended to format it again to install Windows 8. I had previously prepared a thumb drive for booting and installing Windows 8. So after Windows 7 Pro was running, I shut down, plugged in my USB drive, and selected USB under the list of LEGACY BOOT Devices. Clicked Apply and exit, booted into the Windows 8 setup, pointed to the 60GB partition holding Windows 7 Pro, and it refused. It couldn’t install in a GPT partition. Conundrum #2.

So I rebooted, and got back in BIOS and Boot Sequence. Paying a bit more attention, under UEFI BOOT was listed “Windows Boot Manager”, and below that, “UEFI: INT13(,0x80)”. It was listed there before, as well, but it doesn’t say USB, and USB was listed under LEGACY BOOT. But I selected it, anyway, and booted, once again into the Windows 8 setup. This time when I pointed at the 60GB partition containing Windows 7 Pro, got no complaints, clicked on Format, and only got the usual warning about losing everything on the partition.

And Windows 8 Pro Upgrade did the format, installed, and activated without a hitch. I even applied for my free Media Center Product Key and got the 72 hour email promise. The first time I installed Windows 8 on my laptop, EFI was disabled, and during the inspection by the upgrade advisor, I was told that my system was not capable of Secure Boot. I didn’t run the advisor this time, just the installation, but I didn’t see anything about Secure Boot. My guess is that it is enabled, but I haven’t examined all the nooks and crannies of the BIOS yet to find it now that Windows 8 Pro Upgrade is installed.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This topic was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSMedico]

Does appear there is a much more involved setup with UEFI. There is no way the average user could have accomplished what you did IMO. Heck, until I started reading some of these threads, I did not have any idea that UEFI required GPT, and would not have had any idea how to convert on my own without investigating these things. The average person would probably not be able to even find information about this.

This just shows one reason why the average person is having problems Upgrading on newer systems.

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[WSRussB]

Does appear there is a much more involved setup with UEFI. There is no way the average user could have accomplished what you did IMO. Heck, until I started reading some of these threads, I did not have any idea that UEFI required GPT, and would not have had any idea how to convert on my own without investigating these things. The average person would probably not be able to even find information about this.

This just shows one reason why the average person is having problems Upgrading on newer systems.

Right.
This is why us average people rely on you above average people. Like you, bbearren, CLiNT and others.

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[WSCLiNT]

Yeah it’s a huge pain getting UEFI up and running and tweaked, at least is was for me.
The board I have supports both regular BIOS and EFI implementation, but after tinkering in UEFI I ended up going back to BIOS.
There wasn’t anything worth keeping the UEFI setup. It was actually slower bootup on my system, and whenever I tried to tweak it I ended up not being able to boot at all.

Lesson: Either get yourself a full 100% EUFI motherboard implementation, or just a plain BIOS based board, not both.

I think UEFI could use a few more years of experience and maturity, to put a bit more distance between the old and the new.

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[bbearren]

Lesson: Either get yourself a full 100% EUFI motherboard implementation, or just a plain BIOS based board, not both.

I think UEFI could use a few more years of experience and maturity, to put a bit more distance between the old and the new.

The main reason I’m going this route is that folks who purchase a new machine will have 100% UEFI and a GPT hard disk drive. Hopefully I’ll pick up some useful information in what I’m doing that I might be able to pass along here in the future.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSruirib]

The main reason I’m going this route is that folks who purchase a new machine will have 100% UEFI and a GPT hard disk drive. Hopefully I’ll pick up some useful information in what I’m doing that I might be able to pass along here in the future.

Well, we have to thank you for taking the time to share your experience with us :).

• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSjwitalka]

Apparently UEFI can be dangerous as well:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/31/ubuntu_uefi_bricking_samsung_laptops/

Jerry

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[WSjwitalka]

Agreed.

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[bbearren]

Windows 8 Pro Upgrade over Windows 7 Pro SP1 is activated, up and running, all drivers installed, finishing a last round of Windows Updates and then I’ll make a drive image of a pristine setup. From there I will continue to tinker. My BIOS is transitional, meaning to say that it is not wholly UEFI only. So I may have an option or two unavailable to a true UEFI. For boot sequence, I have to tap F12 like a woodpecker (it goes by really fast), then under LEGACY BOOT I have CD/DVD and Internal HDD listed (my assumption is that one might dual boot through BIOS using a GPT HDD or MBR HDD). USB drive shows up there also, if there is a USB Drive in one of the ports. Under UEFI, Windows Boot Manager is always listed, but the other options don’t appear unless the appropriate device is already populated with media.

In other words, unless there is a UEFI capable bootable CD or DVD in the optical drive when BIOS is entered, the CD/DVD drive doesn’t show up in the UEFI section. If there is UEFI capable bootable media in the drive (such as a Windows 7 or 8 installation DVD), it shows up under UEFI (and still shows up under LEGACY BOOT). The same goes for bootable USB. if the files on the USB are UEFI capable, it will show up under the UEFI header, but in my case, it isn’t listed as “USB”. My Windows 8 Pro USB installation drive is INT13(,0x80). It will also show under LEGACY BOOT.

And I also have OTHER OPTIONS, which are BIOS Setup and Diagnostics. To continue with a regular boot into Windows 8 I select Windows Boot Manager.

My BIOS has a Security section containing such items as Trusted Platform Module (AKA Secure Boot) which is currently disabled. There is also Signed Firmware Update, which is also disabled. If enabled, it means that the system BIOS can’t be updated unless the update contains a valid digital signature. There are also options for admin password, system password, hard drive password, and other such goodies in Security. So, it appears that the Windows 8 setup did not enable Secure Boot during installation. Microsoft has demanded that OEM’s only sell machines with Secure Boot enabled, but the Windows 8 Pro Upgrade from Microsoft didn’t enforce the issue in this case. That means that I could enable Secure Boot myself, but I’m not going to at this time.

This process really hasn’t taken all this long, but I’ve pooched it twice trying out some ideas as I went along. A couple didn’t work…

But I’m faithful to those drive images, one of which I’m going to make right now.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[bbearren]

As many of you know, I have been a faithful TeraByte customer for many years. I usually install BootIt on hard drive 0, but on the now GPT disk, that requires an extra step that I don’t want to take just yet. I probably will as soon as I have read up some more on it and consulted the folks at TeraByte Support. In the meantime, I can still boot the CD and do partition work, which BootIt BM can do on a GPT drive.

When I installed Windows 8 on GPT and let it format a couple of 60GB partitions for me, it formatted them NTFS. I used BootIt to create another NTFS partition on some of the unallocated space, where I’ll be installing programs.

Dual booting, I can always create a drive image of the system I’m not using. But I’m not dual booting on my laptop (yet). I’ve burned a TBWinRE boot disk, and I’ve also modified my winre.wim to include IFW. There’s a very good tut in TeraByte’s How-To section, and the TBWinRE builder is a free download. It allows me to boot into the Windows Recovery Environment, which is a RAMDISK (which now has Image for Windows installed) and create a drive image from outside the Windows environment – it runs totally from RAM (drive X)

I’m creating a total hard drive image with Windows 8 Pro in pristine condition with all drivers installed. From this point I can tinker around with the laptop without fear. I intend to get a dual boot going next with Windows 7 Ultimate, like I have on my desktop.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[bbearren]

In this journey, I stumbled upon StartIsBack early on. I don’t recall seeing it mentioned here on this forum, did a quick search and couldn’t find it here. From the StartIsBack site, “Think of it as a transition path which Microsoft should have made for Windows 8.”

Turns out that Microsoft mainly disabled the Windows 7 Start Menu, as it was impractical to build the Windows 8 architecture without it. Much of the code is still right there natively in Windows 8. StartIsBack is extremely lightweight, zero privileges (can be installed by a standard user account), and from my couple of days experience with it, is the Windows 7 Start Menu, with some added customizations for the Start Screen and desktop, including the “live” areas/corners of the desktop. It can also pull all of the “non-app” tiles from the Start Screen and put their shortcuts in the Start Menu, leaving the Start Screen strictly Apps.

My stated goal was to become usably familiar with UEFI and GPT, since that is without doubt the path upon which we all are migrating, slowly but surely. (Anyone with an external hard disk drive larger than 2.2TB is using GPT without knowing it. My NAS is 3TB, and it is a GPT disk, one huge partition formatted in NTFS). But secondarily, I didn’t see much sense in not using the Windows 8 setup after all the ruminating and rummaging around to build it.

Toward that end, in installing programs and utilities I was spending all my time on the desktop. One of my preferences in choosing a utility for anything is that it have a small footprint, be nonintrusive, and simple to setup and use. StartIsBack fits those requirements. It has a 30 day fully functional free trial, and a license fee for two PC’s is only $3. I’m still using it in the free trial mode, but I definitely will be buying it. $3!!! Plus I like the fact that it is primarily Windows 8 native code.

Making the conversion to UEFI/GPT on my laptop was facilitated by having the laptop on my computer desk in front of the monitor for my desktop. I could use my desktop to find pertinent information, and be able to read from the desktop monitor while I finagled with my laptop. Aside from occasionally using the wrong mouse or keyboard, that was a real boon.

And stumbling upon StartIsBack while looking for something else in the beginning of this undertaking, I downloaded it to give it a try. I must say that I have not found any difference at all between StartIsBack on Windows 8 and the Start Menu on Windows 7. The interface for personalization is exactly the same, with the addition of options for the Windows 8 Start Screen. And as far as usability, it is totally familiar.

Of course, if one disliked the Windows 7 Start Menu, StartIsBack would certainly not be an option to consider. Personally, I have had no problems with the Windows 7 Start Menu, am very familiar with it and comfortable using it. This may very well be my own transition to using Windows 8 (as I am right now to post this) on a more regular basis. I can literally pull any part of my Windows 7 Start Menu and/or desktop (either by mounting a drive image, or across my network) directly into Windows 8. That is a great time saver, right there.

Oh, and one more thing. Simply installing StartIsBack has eliminated the “carriage return/new line” issue with IE10 that so many (me, too) have experienced right here in the forums.[/SIZE]

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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[b]

Oh, and one more thing. Simply installing StartIsBack has eliminated the “carriage return/new line” issue with IE10 that so many (me, too) have experienced right here in the forums.[/SIZE]

I replaced Classic Shell with StartIsback three weeks ago and it seems very good.

Version 2.0 (currently Beta) will have some nice additions:
– Shortcut to Start Screen in Start Menu
– Modern Apps (Start Apps) are included into MFU, search and all programs list
– Closing Modern App returns you to desktop or start screen, whichever was used last

But I think the forum IE10 compatibility is pure coincidence and nothing to do with StartIsBack; a forum change was made on January 22nd:

FYI, I have temporarily disabled the WYSIWYG editor function when creating replies to threads. This should make IE10 work without using compatibility mode, and it may resolve other issues related to using the Lounge on IE 10.

Bruce

Windows 10 Pro version 21H1 build 19043.1081 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

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[bbearren]

I replaced Classic Shell with StartIsback three weeks ago and it seems very good.

Version 2.0 (currently Beta) will have some nice additions:
– Shortcut to Start Screen in Start Menu
– Modern Apps (Start Apps) are included into MFU, search and all programs list
– Closing Modern App returns you to desktop or start screen, whichever was used last

But I think the forum IE10 compatibility is pure coincidence and nothing to do with StartIsBack; a forum change was made on January 22nd:

Bruce

Whenever I’d been in Windows 8 prior to this, I had been hitting “Compatibility View” out of habit, so I wasn’t really aware of the changes in the editor.

But I do like the familiarity of StartIsBack, and the small footprint.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSrmonroe36]

Turns out that Microsoft mainly disabled the Windows 7 Start Menu, as it was impractical to build the Windows 8 architecture without it. Much of the code is still right there natively in Windows 8. StartIsBack is extremely lightweight, zero privileges (can be installed by a standard user account), and from my couple of days experience with it, is the Windows 7 Start Menu, with some added customizations for the Start Screen and desktop, including the “live” areas/corners of the desktop. It can also pull all of the “non-app” tiles from the Start Screen and put their shortcuts in the Start Menu, leaving the Start Screen strictly Apps.[/SIZE]

My curiosity was aroused, so I checked on file sizes of programs I have used:

Classic Shell 8.36 MB

Stardock Start8 4.64 MB

StartIsBack 800 KB

Thank you bbearren!

Rich

@Jerry
Installation setup file sizes.

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[WSF.U.N. downtown]

What about the Windows Security screen option from the Start menu when on Remote Desktop?

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[bbearren]

What about the Windows Security screen option from the Start menu when on Remote Desktop?

I’m not sure what you mean by “Windows Security screen option”. The “Administrative Tools” folder is in the Start Menu, and “Local Security Policy” is in that folder, but I don’t know if that’s what you’re asking about.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSF.U.N. downtown]

Leads to the slick GUI for remote management, including shut down and restart commands.

33014-Security-Screen

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[WSjwitalka]

How did you measure file size? Task manager shows classic shell service uses 496k of memory and Classic Start menu uses 1 meg for a total of about 1.5 megs of memory on my laptop. In any event, the amount of space used by any of these programs is trivial on today’s PCs.

Jerry

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[WS- bill]

In any event, the amount of space used by any of these programs is trivial on today’s PCs.

My guess would be that the various references to ‘footprint’ in this discussion may relate more to the the size of required modifications to Win 8 to get it to do what users want it to do than to conserving RAM or disk space. To a significant degree, the fewer the required modifications, the lower the likelihood of bugs, and while StartIsBack may be relatively new on the scene (which tends to increase the probability of yet-undiscovered bugs) its author is by no means a novice in this area.

A more delicate touch also represents a more elegant solution to some of us. If/when I decide to use one of these programs on Win 8 I’ll definitely give StartIsBack a try (though I also have some sentimental interest in reverting to a Start button look and interface that predates Win 7’s, so Classic Shell will also be in the running).

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[bbearren]

How did you measure file size? Task manager shows classic shell service uses 496k of memory and Classic Start menu uses 1 meg for a total of about 1.5 megs of memory on my laptop. In any event, the amount of space used by any of these programs is trivial on today’s PCs.

Jerry

With Task Manager in expanded view, I cannot find StartIsBack, not as an app, a process, or a service. Either I’m not looking hard enough, or it is simply calling a native Windows process/service.

As I posted earlier, I can’t tell any difference between the Windows 7 Start Menu and StartIsBack running in Windows 8.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSjwitalka]

My view is that the decision should be based on person preference of the look and feel and functions of the various options rather than “footprint”. I haven’t heard of any issues with any of them. That could change if Microsoft provides an update to prevent some of these features from working. They really want everyone to visit the “modorn” interface as much as possible to enhance the profitability of the Store.

Jerry

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[WSF.U.N. downtown]

Well, I’ll be all in on my virtual propagation if it really is the Start7 menu replete with Windows Security on the remote desktop screen. Start8 does not have it. Ya, functionality if far more important than “footprint.” If that were important, no one would be using these bloated OSes we have now. Talk about the proverbial deck chair thrown off the QE2!

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[bbearren]

Allow me to use an analogy to describe what I mean by footprint. Norton AV/AM has a large footprint. McAfee AV/AM has a large footprint.

Microsoft Security Essentials has a small footprint. Windows Defender has a small footprint.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSjwitalka]

Allow me to use an analogy to describe what I mean by footprint. Norton AV/AM has a large footprint. McAfee AV/AM has a large footprint.

Microsoft Security Essentials has a small footprint. Windows Defender has a small footprint.

By that measure, all of the Windows 8 start menu utilities have a small footprint. :rolleyes:

I assume you are referring to the amount of resident memory required by an application.

Jerry

• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSjwitalka]

Found this here:http://www.softpedia.com/reviews/windows/StartIsBack-Review-318442.shtml

Because StartIsBack accesses native Windows code, you won’t find a third-party process running in Task Manager, so you cannot kill or disable it. The only way to get rid of it is to run the uninstall procedure.

Jerry

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[bbearren]

Found this here:http://www.softpedia.com/reviews/windows/StartIsBack-Review-318442.shtml

Because StartIsBack accesses native Windows code, you won’t find a third-party process running in Task Manager, so you cannot kill or disable it. The only way to get rid of it is to run the uninstall procedure.

Jerry[/QUOTE]
I’d call that a small footprint.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSF.U.N. downtown]

Well StartIsBack does have the Windows Security button in remote screen, I got all excited, gave it a go and instead of restart, shut down and sleep, only got disconnect. However found out by experimentation that holding the control key down while clicking the restart/shut down/sleep icon, I was presented with an emergency restart option, so that’s something.

StartIsBack was definitely not as smooth on my bench test as Start 8 is. I wonder if that’s because it is suppressing any hint of the disgusting side of Windows 8? Start 8 flashes the Start screen before moving over to the desktop. At approximately the same point, StartIsBack does not show the start screen but the little blue busy orb is a spinning and the taskbar is fully minimized but a sort of fast line jump right at the bottom would indicate something is going on for a second and then the taskbar emerges.

All in all a reasonable alternative but for me it didn’t stick it’s nose up any higher than the rest.

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[bbearren]

StartIsBack was definitely not as smooth on my bench test as Start 8 is. I wonder if that’s because it is suppressing any hint of the disgusting side of Windows 8? Start 8 flashes the Start screen before moving over to the desktop. At approximately the same point, StartIsBack does not show the start screen but the little blue busy orb is a spinning and the taskbar is fully minimized but a sort of fast line jump right at the bottom would indicate something is going on for a second and then the taskbar emerges.

All in all a reasonable alternative but for me it didn’t stick it’s nose up any higher than the rest.

Interesting. I don’t have that behavior. When I boot into Windows 8, I get the lock screen first, click to get the login, login and the desktop appears immediately. I have the mouse pointer with the tiny busy orb beside it for about a second, maybe two, but the Start Menu will launch without hesitation.

I don’t have the Taskbar on Auto-hide, so it’s visible immediately. I haven’t tried any of the others, so I have no comparison to make. I only decided to try StartIsBack because of the review I read that described its use of native code in Windows 8, and the small footprint (a determining factor in my preferences for a utility app).

–edit– I put my Taskbar in Auto-hide and rebooted. After login, the desktop appears immediately, and the Taskbar jumps up as soon as I can get the mouse down to it from the center of the screen. There is no hesitation of anything.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[WSF.U.N. downtown]

I always test via remote on a slow drive so I can pick up on differences more easily and its not that SIB wasn’t fine, but that I was kind of expecting better since it is tapping the native code, but there still seems to be some “negotiation” going on with how Windows 8 is designed to startup. Start8 flashes through SS and SIB seems to freeze screen it past. I may not even notice the hesitation on a normal install.

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[RetiredGeek]

Hello Y’all,

I went to the SIB website today to download and noticed that they say it doesn’t play well with Windows Defender!

A reboot is recommended after installation. Windows Defender is known to cause slowdowns and not recommended.

Does anyone have any experience using the two programs together? :cheers:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
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[bbearren]

Hello Y’all,

I went to the SIB website today to download and noticed that they say it doesn’t play well with Windows Defender! Does anyone have any experience using the two programs together? :cheers:

I’m running it on my laptop and desktop in conjunction with Windows Defender, and I haven’t had any difficulties as yet to attribute to such a conflict. I haven’t had any difficulties at all with my laptop (after I finally got my dual boot setup/restored), and those difficulties I’ve had with my desktop are self-induced by my tinkerin’, and not related to any conflicts as near as I can determine.

Having read that same caution, I did add the StartIsBack folder in C:Program Files (x86) to the excluded locations in the Windows Defender Settings tab after I installed StartIsBack.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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[RetiredGeek]

Having read that same caution, I did add the StartIsBack folder in C:Program Files (x86) to the excluded locations in the Windows Defender Settings tab after I installed StartIsBack.

Good Point! :cheers:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
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• This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by bbearren.

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