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  • BSOD issues

    This topic contains 88 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  JoeP 10 hours, 52 minutes ago.

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    • #1958719 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      I am having what appears to be a hardware issue where I need some advice. I have a Win 7 64 Pro computer that will not always finish booting up normally but will in safe mode. When it does finish normally, after about 10 minutes or so, it will get the BSOD and try to reboot. The error codes from Whocrashed says its ntoskrnl.exe on one of them and ntkrnlmp.exe on another one. They are both pointing towards over heating/thermal issue. Both fans are running so I am not sure what this means. Any thoughts?

    • #1958729 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      Here is the report from WhoCrashed:

      System Information (local)

      Computer name:
      Windows version: Windows 7 Service Pack 1 , 6.1, build: 7601
      Windows dir: C:\Windows
      Hardware: OptiPlex 3020, Dell Inc., 0VHWTR
      CPU: GenuineIntel Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4570 CPU @ 3.20GHz Intel8664, level: 6
      4 logical processors, active mask: 15
      RAM: 4209819648 bytes (3.9GB)

      Crash Dump Analysis

      Crash dumps are enabled on your computer. This system is not configured for complete or automatic crash dumps. For best results, configure your system to write out complete or automatic crash dumps. Select Tools->Crash Dump Configuration from the main menu to configure your system to write out complete memory dumps.
      Crash dump directories:
      C:\Windows
      C:\Windows\Minidump

      On Fri 9/20/2019 8:43:05 AM your computer crashed or a problem was reported
      crash dump file: C:\Windows\Minidump\092019-12604-01.dmp
      This was probably caused by the following module: ntoskrnl.exe (nt+0x93CA0)
      Bugcheck code: 0xF4 (0x3, 0xFFFFFA80055ECB00, 0xFFFFFA80055ECDE0, 0xFFFFF800033A2930)
      Error: CRITICAL_OBJECT_TERMINATION
      file path: C:\Windows\system32\ntoskrnl.exe
      product: Microsoft® Windows® Operating System
      company: Microsoft Corporation
      description: NT Kernel & System
      Bug check description: This indicates that a process or thread crucial to system operation has unexpectedly exited or been terminated. This bug check is typically caused by a thermal issue. It’s suggested that you do temperature checking on your CPUs and hardware.
      This is likely to be caused by a hardware problem. This problem might also be caused because of overheating (thermal issue).
      The crash took place in the Windows kernel. Possibly this problem is caused by another driver that cannot be identified at this time.

      On Fri 9/20/2019 8:43:05 AM your computer crashed or a problem was reported
      crash dump file: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP
      This was probably caused by the following module: ntkrnlmp.exe (nt!PsSetCurrentThreadPrefetching+0x6E2)
      Bugcheck code: 0xF4 (0x3, 0xFFFFFA80055ECB00, 0xFFFFFA80055ECDE0, 0xFFFFF800033A2930)
      Error: CRITICAL_OBJECT_TERMINATION
      Bug check description: This indicates that a process or thread crucial to system operation has unexpectedly exited or been terminated. This bug check is typically caused by a thermal issue. It’s suggested that you do temperature checking on your CPUs and hardware.
      This is likely to be caused by a hardware problem. This problem might also be caused because of overheating (thermal issue).
      The crash took place in the Windows kernel. Possibly this problem is caused by another driver that cannot be identified at this time.

      On Thu 9/19/2019 5:58:13 PM your computer crashed or a problem was reported
      crash dump file: C:\Windows\Minidump\091919-16988-01.dmp
      This was probably caused by the following module: ntoskrnl.exe (nt+0x93CA0)
      Bugcheck code: 0xF4 (0x3, 0xFFFFFA8005438890, 0xFFFFFA8005438B70, 0xFFFFF80003370930)
      Error: CRITICAL_OBJECT_TERMINATION
      file path: C:\Windows\system32\ntoskrnl.exe
      product: Microsoft® Windows® Operating System
      company: Microsoft Corporation
      description: NT Kernel & System
      Bug check description: This indicates that a process or thread crucial to system operation has unexpectedly exited or been terminated. This bug check is typically caused by a thermal issue. It’s suggested that you do temperature checking on your CPUs and hardware.
      This is likely to be caused by a hardware problem. This problem might also be caused because of overheating (thermal issue).
      The crash took place in the Windows kernel. Possibly this problem is caused by another driver that cannot be identified at this time.

      On Thu 9/19/2019 5:45:59 PM your computer crashed or a problem was reported</b>
      crash dump file: C:\Windows\Minidump\091919-16442-01.dmp
      This was probably caused by the following module: ntoskrnl.exe (nt+0x93CA0)
      Bugcheck code: 0xC000021A (0xFFFFF8A0027C2B70, 0xFFFFFFFFC0000006, 0x7FEFD663720, 0x9BF440)
      Error: STATUS_SYSTEM_PROCESS_TERMINATED
      file path: C:\Windows\system32\ntoskrnl.exe
      product: Microsoft® Windows® Operating System
      company: Microsoft Corporation
      description: NT Kernel & System
      Bug check description: This means that an error has occurred in a crucial user-mode subsystem.
      There is a possibility this problem was caused by a virus or other malware.
      The crash took place in the Windows kernel. Possibly this problem is caused by another driver that cannot be identified at this time.

      Edit: HTML removal – Please use the ‘Text’ tab in the post entry box when you copy/paste

      • #1958785 Reply

        satrow
        AskWoody MVP

        Bugcheck code: 0xF4 is often a drive problem, sometimes firmware on the drive. esp. with some SSDs.

        Bugcheck code: 0xC000021A is likely to be a 3rd party software/driver.

        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  satrow.
    • #1958766 Reply

      Paul T
      AskWoody MVP

      Run one of the hardware monitoring programs that reports temperature and watch to see what happens prior to the crash.

      CPUID HWMonitor

      cheers, Paul

    • #1958786 Reply

      Canadian Tech
      AskWoody_MVP

      One possibility:
      Failure of the heat transfer paste that is between the CPU and the cooling system mounted on top of it.

      For a desktop PC, the solution is not difficult. You will need to buy a tube of the paste. You should be able to find it. It takes a very small amount.

      Remove the heat synch that is mounted on top of the CPU.
      Use rubbing alcohol VERY carefully to remove the existing paste on both surfaces
      Put small dots of the paste on the four corners — not at the edge
      Place the heat synch back down and push to spread the paste.
      You do not want the paste to extrude beyond the borders, so do this carefully and sparingly.

      Also, if this is a laptop, make certain you do not use it on a soft surface that will not allow air under the bottom.

      CT

      • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  Canadian Tech.
    • #1958789 Reply

      Microfix
      Da Boss

      Whilst off/ isolated from power, it might be time to open the case and visually inspect for accumulated excess fluff/grime on all fans and anywhere else. Remove the excess carefully. Airflow is important within any PC. Is this housed within a Small Form Factor case by chance?

      ********** Win7 x64/x86 | Win8.1 x64 | Linux Hybrids x64 **********

    • #1958814 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      I downloaded and installed the HW monitor app. It rebooted but I am getting a blank screen with just the mouse showing up. It has not Blue screened yet. This is a desktop PC. I have the case open. Not dust or grime that I can see. The fans are both running.

      I can try adding some of the paste. I presume it’s called heat sync paste?

    • #1958827 Reply

      CADesertRat
      AskWoody Plus

      There is a possibility this problem was caused by a virus or other malware. The crash took place in the Windows kernel. Possibly this problem is caused by another driver that cannot be identified at this time.

      Since you can boot in Safe Mode, have you tried any offline virus/malware detection programs??

      Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
      4 Win 10 Pro currently 1809 (3 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

    • #1958833 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      Yes, I downloaded a version of the Kaspersky disc and booted on it. It did not find anything. I did notice though that the free version listed as 2018. I am wondering if I need a more recent one. Any recommendations on good vendors that provide boot discs? I can try it again

    • #1958840 Reply

      Paul T
      AskWoody MVP

      I am getting a blank screen with just the mouse showing up

      Is this what you get without running HWMonitor?

      cheers, Paul

    • #1958841 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      Yes, I can’t get to the main screen without going through Safe mode. I am kind of waiting to see if it blue screens and then see what the HWMonitor says.

    • #1958846 Reply

      anonymous

      I’d boot into safe mode and disable all startup items. Then if you are able to boot normally, start re-enabling in groups to narrow down the offender.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1958930 Reply

      anonymous

      Hello JoeP, Try the MSCONFIG approach. Go to Services and “Hide all Microsoft services” so you won’t be stopping the Microsoft services needed but will stop the NON-Microsoft services. See if you can operate the computer for a reasonable time. If so, then it is a 3rd party servoce or startup causing it. We have seen this with bad programs and malware/adware. Other people here also have excellent suggestions.

      Reference: HAL9000 at Raymond.cc site.
      Disable Third Party Services and Programs for a Clean Boot in Windows
      https://www.raymond.cc/blog/disable-third-party-services-and-programs-for-clean-boot-in-windows/

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1963708 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        Hide (uncheck in the Startup Service) all NON-microsoft services.

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W(?) + Mac&Lx

    • #1959000 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      So I went through the MSCONFIG process of a clean boot. I am still not getting a bootup. It goes through the welcome screen and then I get a blank screen.  One 1 occasion, I got a DWM.exe and taskhost.exe errors. It then said Explorer is not working and asks to end the program. It then said Windows has had a critical error and will be shutting down in one minute. Save your work – or something similar.

      In Safe mode, when I go back into the MSCONFIG page, a bunch of the MS services are rechecked. I am guessing they are needed to run?

    • #1959016 Reply

      anonymous

      Hello JoeP, I am sorry it did not point to a program at fault. The DWM error you mentioned makes me think it may be a video problem. CT and Microfix (2 people I admire) feel it may be a heat issue. Do you have a special video card that has its own GPU and heat-sink or fan?? Could if be the driver??

      Here is another attempt at diagnosis. Go to Control Panel, System, Advanced System Settings, Performance, Setting button, visual effects. Make note what you have checked in there then tell it to go for max performance. This will turn off every special effect and look like windows 98, but see if it helps. If so, it is some special video effect, if not then put it back and keep looking elsewhere as CT and M said.

      Reference: Walter Glenn of the Howtogeek.
      “Desktop Window Manager (dwm.exe) is a compositing window manager that renders all those pretty effects in Windows: transparent windows, live taskbar thumbnails, Flip3D, and even high resolution monitor support.”

      “Because Windows is compositing and displaying the contents of each window, it can add effects like transparency and window animations when layering the windows for display.”

      What Is Desktop Window Manager (dwm.exe) and Why Is It Running? Walter Glenn Updated July 4, 2017
      https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/what-is-dwmexe-and-why-is-it-running/

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1959031 Reply

        Canadian Tech
        AskWoody_MVP

        You just gave me an idea. I had a system on my desk just last week that would not boot. After a lot of trial and error and giving up, I had a brain storm that paid off. I removed the video card and plugged into the mainboard VGA port. I had previously tried that without removing the video board and that was unsuccessful.

        Another suggestion: Could be a memory issue. Try removing all memory boards, then installing one at a time.

        CT

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1959023 Reply

      anonymous

      JoeP, You said, “In Safe mode, when I go back into the MSCONFIG page, a bunch of the MS services are rechecked. I am guessing they are needed to run?” You did the “Hide all Microsoft services” so you would not accidentally stop the needed Microsoft services right?

      You want the MS services to stay checked but uncheck those not needed to boot that are 3rd party.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1959054 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      Hello JoeP, I am sorry it did not point to a program at fault. The DWM error you mentioned makes me think it may be a video problem. CT and Microfix (2 people I admire) feel it may be a heat issue. Do you have a special video card that has its own GPU and heat-sink or fan?? Could if be the driver??

      Here is another attempt at diagnosis. Go to Control Panel, System, Advanced System Settings, Performance, Setting button, visual effects. Make note what you have checked in there then tell it to go for max performance. This will turn off every special effect and look like windows 98, but see if it helps. If so, it is some special video effect, if not then put it back and keep looking elsewhere as CT and M said.

      Reference: Walter Glenn of the Howtogeek.
      “Desktop Window Manager (dwm.exe) is a compositing window manager that renders all those pretty effects in Windows: transparent windows, live taskbar thumbnails, Flip3D, and even high resolution monitor support.”

      “Because Windows is compositing and displaying the contents of each window, it can add effects like transparency and window animations when layering the windows for display.”

      What Is Desktop Window Manager (dwm.exe) and Why Is It Running? Walter Glenn Updated July 4, 2017
      https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/what-is-dwmexe-and-why-is-it-running/

      I had the let Windows decide checked versus max performance. That said, I checked max performance and rebooted. No change. I also read the article you quoted. In Task manager, desktop window manager does not show up.

      I do not have a video card in this machine. It is a very basic machine. The video plug attaches to the motherboard

    • #1959055 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      JoeP, You said, “In Safe mode, when I go back into the MSCONFIG page, a bunch of the MS services are rechecked. I am guessing they are needed to run?” You did the “Hide all Microsoft services” so you would not accidentally stop the needed Microsoft services right?

      You want the MS services to stay checked but uncheck those not needed to boot that are 3rd party.

      Got it, yes, I had that right. All the 3rd party ones were unchecked.

    • #1959116 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      So I let the machine go through a couple of cycles of boot, welcome screen, blank screen for roughly 5 minutes, BSOD, reboot, same process. Here are the results from WhoCrashed and HWmonitor. Not sure if anyone wants to see the thread dumps from HWMonitor. Let me know and I can add them. The basics are after WhoCrashed. Same as before.

      Computer name:
      Windows version: Windows 7 Service Pack 1 , 6.1, build: 7601
      Windows dir: C:\Windows
      Hardware: OptiPlex 3020, Dell Inc., 0VHWTR
      CPU: GenuineIntel Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4570 CPU @ 3.20GHz Intel8664, level: 6
      4 logical processors, active mask: 15
      RAM: 4209819648 bytes (3.9GB)

      Crash Dump Analysis

      Crash dumps are enabled on your computer. This system is not configured for complete or automatic crash dumps. For best results, configure your system to write out complete or automatic crash dumps. Select Tools->Crash Dump Configuration from the main menu to configure your system to write out complete memory dumps.
      Crash dump directories:
      C:\Windows
      C:\Windows\Minidump

      On Fri 9/20/2019 4:07:39 PM your computer crashed or a problem was reported
      crash dump file: C:\Windows\Minidump\092019-14055-01.dmp
      This was probably caused by the following module: ntoskrnl.exe (nt+0x93CA0)
      Bugcheck code: 0xF4 (0x3, 0xFFFFFA80053D6B00, 0xFFFFFA80053D6DE0, 0xFFFFF800039A0930)
      Error: CRITICAL_OBJECT_TERMINATION
      file path: C:\Windows\system32\ntoskrnl.exe
      product: Microsoft® Windows® Operating System
      company: Microsoft Corporation
      description: NT Kernel & System
      Bug check description: This indicates that a process or thread crucial to system operation has unexpectedly exited or been terminated. This bug check is typically caused by a thermal issue. It’s suggested that you do temperature checking on your CPUs and hardware.
      This is likely to be caused by a hardware problem. This problem might also be caused because of overheating (thermal issue).
      The crash took place in the Windows kernel. Possibly this problem is caused by another driver that cannot be identified at this time.

      On Fri 9/20/2019 4:07:39 PM your computer crashed or a problem was reported
      crash dump file: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP
      This was probably caused by the following module: ntkrnlmp.exe (nt!PsSetCurrentThreadPrefetching+0x6E2)
      Bugcheck code: 0xF4 (0x3, 0xFFFFFA80053D6B00, 0xFFFFFA80053D6DE0, 0xFFFFF800039A0930)
      Error: CRITICAL_OBJECT_TERMINATION
      Bug check description: This indicates that a process or thread crucial to system operation has unexpectedly exited or been terminated. This bug check is typically caused by a thermal issue. It’s suggested that you do temperature checking on your CPUs and hardware.
      This is likely to be caused by a hardware problem. This problem might also be caused because of overheating (thermal issue).
      The crash took place in the Windows kernel. Possibly this problem is caused by another driver that cannot be identified at this time.

      HWMONITOR
      CPUID HWMonitor Report
      ————————————————————————-

      Binaries
      ————————————————————————-

      HWMonitor version 1.4.1.0

      Monitoring
      ————————————————————————-

      Mainboard Model 0VHWTR (0x000001CB – 0x005B2240)

      LPCIO
      ————————————————————————-

      Hardware Monitors
      ————————————————————————-

      Processors
      ————————————————————————-

      Number of sockets 1
      Number of threads 4

      APICs
      ————————————————————————-

      Socket 0
      — Core 0 (ID 0)
      — Thread 0 0
      — Core 1 (ID 2)
      — Thread 1 2
      — Core 2 (ID 4)
      — Thread 2 4
      — Core 3 (ID 6)
      — Thread 3 6

      Timers
      ————————————————————————-

      Perf timer 3.118 MHz
      Sys timer 1.000 KHz

      Processors Information
      ————————————————————————-

      Socket 1 ID = 0
      Number of cores 4 (max 4)
      Number of threads 4 (max 4)
      Manufacturer GenuineIntel
      Name Intel Core i5
      Codename Haswell
      Specification Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4570 CPU @ 3.20GHz
      Package
      CPUID 6.C.3
      Extended CPUID 6.3C
      Core Stepping C0
      Technology 22 nm
      Tjmax 100.0 °C
      Core Speed 3192.6 MHz
      Stock frequency 3200 MHz
      Instructions sets MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4.1, SSE4.2, EM64T, VT-x, AES, AVX, AVX2, FMA3
      L1 Data cache 4 x 32 KBytes, 8-way set associative, 64-byte line size
      L1 Instruction cache 4 x 32 KBytes, 8-way set associative, 64-byte line size
      L2 cache 4 x 256 KBytes, 8-way set associative, 64-byte line size
      L3 cache 6 MBytes, 12-way set associative, 64-byte line size
      Max CPUID level 0000000Dh
      Max CPUID ext. level 80000008h
      Cache descriptor Level 1, D, 32 KB, 2 thread(s)
      Cache descriptor Level 1, I, 32 KB, 2 thread(s)
      Cache descriptor Level 2, U, 256 KB, 2 thread(s)
      Cache descriptor Level 3, U, 6 MB, 16 thread(s)
      FID/VID Control yes

      Turbo Mode not supported

      Clock Speed 0 n.a. (Core #0)
      Clock Speed 1 n.a. (Core #1)
      Clock Speed 2 n.a. (Core #2)
      Clock Speed 3 n.a. (Core #3)

      Edit to remove HTML. Please use the “Text” tab in the entry box when you copy/paste,

      • #1959205 Reply

        Canadian Tech
        AskWoody_MVP

        Your tool is telling you it is a THERMAL ISSUE. A thermal issue is what you should be looking for. Have you tried the thermal paste I previously suggested?

        CT

        • #1959230 Reply

          anonymous

          Hello JoeP, Anon #1958930 here. I am going to lean over to CT and M’s suggestion of heat. I do remember years ago, a person with an AMD processor would not quite boot, then BSOD. When we opened the box, the CPU’s heat-sink practically fell off it was so loose. You might open it up and look for loose heat-sink or lots of dust clogging the fins. Also, there have been times when the heat-sink compound would dry out, and loose its effectiveness.

      • #1960076 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Plus

        I agree with CT. The free version of Piriform’s Speccy utility will correctly display the temperatures of all four CPU cores. Here is the direct download link for Speccy:

        https://www.ccleaner.com/speccy/download/standard

         

    • #1959168 Reply

      anonymous

      ? says:

      have you tried to run sfc from your install disk?

      step #5″

      https://neosmart.net/wiki/sfc/#Run_sfc_in_Windows_7

      sfc /scannow /offbootdir=c:\ /offwindir=c:\windows

      could be crooked file?

    • #1959255 Reply

      satrow
      AskWoody MVP

      WhoCrashed isn’t as accurate in diagnosing BSODs as most of you seem to think, the info I gave initially is based on MS’ own data plus Carrona’s examination of many 0000’s of online BSOD discussions:
      0xF4
      0xC000021A

      Last Known Good can do back through multiple Registry backups. I’ve read up to 9. I’ve had one case go back to ~5, so it’s possible that it can recover from a change originally made weeks before.

      What we really need is some solid data; crash dumps, HWiFNO32 msinfo32 and Autoruns native outputs, to work with. The BSOD App. here can supply that data, though some types of BSOD (0xC000021A is one) are unlikely to provide crash dumps due to the timing and/or nature of the System Services/Processes affected (during Boot is common for 0xC000021A and they often affect CRSS needed to create/save dumps).

      @joep: if you can run the App from Safe Mode/Last Known Good and upload the resulting zip file to somewhere publicly accessible (GoogleDrive/OneDrive,…) and post the link back here, we’ll be able to dig deeper.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1959417 Reply

      mledman
      AskWoody Plus

      I downloaded a version of the Kaspersky disc and booted on it. It did not find anything.

      If the Kaspersky disk booted and ran a virus scan successfully it would seem the hardware is OK.  Corrupt operating system files or a failing hard drive come to mind.  I don’t know how an overheating cpu would react while running a virus scan.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1959575 Reply

        anonymous

        Hello mledman and JoeP, Anon #1958930 here. Good observation. JoeP, if you can run a knoppix disk (linux CD) or any stand alone bootable CD for virus scanning and if it runs for say 30 minutes without any issues, then YES (as I was suspecting) it seems to point back to software causing the issue.

        JoeP, you mentioned safe mode. Does the computer run and stay OK for 30 minutes in safe mode or not?

        Keep looking JoeP. We -will- make headway with all of us here.

        • #1962408 Reply

          anonymous

          As an update from Friday. I removed, cleaned and reinstalled heatsync compound. No change. The computer will run in Safe mode for a long period of time. I did not time it but there has been no issue there.

          I will try to run the Speecy utility later today.

          I did not run sfc from the install disc. Actually, I can’t find the disc that came with the computer. All I have are rescue and repair disc made from the computer. Any ideas on where I can find one?

          Lastly, I will try to run the BSOD app from safe mode and let you know. Also later today

          Thanks for all of your help on this!!!

          • #1962460 Reply

            anonymous

            ? says:

            https://www.sevenforums.com/performance-maintenance/146348-cannot-run-sfc-repair-disk.html

            hopefully it is a borked winload or crss .exe and not failing drive or what not…

          • #1962672 Reply

            JoeP
            AskWoody Plus

            So I ran the sfc  /scannow program. It did not find anything.

            I ran the Speccy utility and there is a huge amount of data there. Some of it creates a bit of a security concern throwing it out there in a “public” domain. That said, I have it along with the CBS log loaded on OneDrive. PM me, and I can send a link to a few people.

            Alternatively, I have a zip file from the Sysnative BSOD app, but it is too big to upload to this site. (2085kb)   That I can PM as well.

            Take a look at that and tell me if there is anything glaring in there.

            Thanks,

            Joe

            1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1962677 Reply

      anonymous

      ? says:

      well, to bad the sfc scan came back clean and the processor goo didn’t do the trick. how about recent patches? did the problem start after a round of recent updates? and how does the main drive look for errors? and still getting the same errors?

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1962696 Reply

      mledman
      AskWoody Plus

      So I ran the sfc /scannow program. It did not find anything.

      My next thought is physical or logical hard disk problems.   Running chkdsk can check for and repair both.  Checking for bad sectors (I’m assuming this is a HHD) can take several hours.  If you do this make sure your data is backed up to other media.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1962875 Reply

      Paul T
      AskWoody MVP

      Running chkdsk can check for and repair both

      It doesn’t actually repair, the test allows the drive to find and re-map bad sectors so you should end up with a disk with no bad sectors. If your drive reports bad sectors then it is failing and should be backed up and replaced immediately.

      cheers, Paul

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1963055 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      WhoCrashed isn’t as accurate in diagnosing BSODs as most of you seem to think, the info I gave initially is based on MS’ own data plus Carrona’s examination of many 0000’s of online BSOD discussions:
      0xF4
      0xC000021A

      Last Known Good can do back through multiple Registry backups. I’ve read up to 9. I’ve had one case go back to ~5, so it’s possible that it can recover from a change originally made weeks before.

      What we really need is some solid data; crash dumps, HWiFNO32 msinfo32 and Autoruns native outputs, to work with. The BSOD App. here can supply that data, though some types of BSOD (0xC000021A is one) are unlikely to provide crash dumps due to the timing and/or nature of the System Services/Processes affected (during Boot is common for 0xC000021A and they often affect CRSS needed to create/save dumps).

      @joep: if you can run the App from Safe Mode/Last Known Good and upload the resulting zip file to somewhere publicly accessible (GoogleDrive/OneDrive,…) and post the link back here, we’ll be able to dig deeper.

      Wanted to follow up on the last known good idea. I tried it again twice this morning through the safe mode boot up option and got just a blank screen. Much the same as if I booted normally with the exception of seeing the mouse in normal boot up.

    • #1963058 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      So I ran the sfc /scannow program. It did not find anything.

      My next thought is physical or logical hard disk problems.   Running chkdsk can check for and repair both.  Checking for bad sectors (I’m assuming this is a HHD) can take several hours.  If you do this make sure your data is backed up to other media.

      Ran Chkdsk this morning. It found nothing.

    • #1963399 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      The latest thing to try for me was to change the page file/virtual memory to see what happens (thanks Andy). I timed the start ups in normal mode. Pretty consistently I get to the welcome page in 1.5 minutes and ends around 2 minutes no matter what settings I choose.

      At around 5 minutes, I will get one of the following. either the home screen, blank screen, BSOD or an error message saying Windows explorer stopped working.

      I tried this with the settings as they were in VM. I then stopped all VM and it seemed to go to a blank screen most all the time. I then increased it to the recommended setting of around 6021MB. I got BSOD and a reboot. It did get to the welcome screen much faster though. 36 seconds…

      I thought it might be heat related as it seemed to work better when I first got to the office so I shut it down and went to lunch. No change.

      Thoughts?

      • #1963692 Reply

        satrow
        AskWoody MVP

        So the page file was *disabled* this time around, and it still crashed?

        (background info, several of the earlier crashes were:
        0x7a flagging up Fs_Rec.SYS the Windows ‘File System Recognizer Driver’ (basic debug info below)
        2x 0xF4’s flagging avgSP.sys (see here!)

        3: kd> !analyze -v
        *******************************************************************************
        * *
        * Bugcheck Analysis *
        * *
        *******************************************************************************

        KERNEL_DATA_INPAGE_ERROR (7a)
        The requested page of kernel data could not be read in. Typically caused by
        a bad block in the paging file or disk controller error
        . Also see
        KERNEL_STACK_INPAGE_ERROR.
        If the error status is 0xC000000E, 0xC000009C, 0xC000009D or 0xC0000185,
        it means the disk subsystem has experienced a failure.

        If the error status is 0xC000009A, then it means the request failed because
        a filesystem failed to make forward progress.
        Arguments:
        Arg1: fffff6fc40009190, lock type that was held (value 1,2,3, or PTE address)
        Arg2: ffffffffc0000185, error status (normally i/o status code)
        Arg3: 00002000a24c0860, current process (virtual address for lock type 3, or PTE)
        Arg4: fffff8800123252c, virtual address that could not be in-paged (or PTE contents if arg1 is a PTE address)

        Debugging Details:
        ——————

        *** WARNING: Unable to verify timestamp for Fs_Rec.sys
        GetUlongPtrFromAddress: unable to read from fffff800032e6300

        KEY_VALUES_STRING: 1

        PROCESSES_ANALYSIS: 1

        SERVICE_ANALYSIS: 1

        STACKHASH_ANALYSIS: 1

        TIMELINE_ANALYSIS: 1

        DUMP_CLASS: 1

        DUMP_QUALIFIER: 400

        BUILD_VERSION_STRING: 7601.24499.amd64fre.win7sp1_ldr.190612-0600

        SYSTEM_MANUFACTURER: Dell Inc.

        SYSTEM_PRODUCT_NAME: OptiPlex 3020

        SYSTEM_SKU: OptiPlex 3020

        SYSTEM_VERSION: 01

        BIOS_VENDOR: Dell Inc.

        BIOS_VERSION: A00

        BIOS_DATE: 09/18/2013

        BASEBOARD_MANUFACTURER: Dell Inc.

        BASEBOARD_PRODUCT: 0VHWTR

        BASEBOARD_VERSION: A01

        DUMP_TYPE: 2

        BUGCHECK_P1: fffff6fc40009190

        BUGCHECK_P2: ffffffffc0000185

        BUGCHECK_P3: 2000a24c0860

        BUGCHECK_P4: fffff8800123252c

        ERROR_CODE: (NTSTATUS) 0xc0000185 – The I/O device reported an I/O error.

        DISK_HARDWARE_ERROR: There was error with disk hardware

        BUGCHECK_STR: 0x7a_c0000185_DUMP_DUMPATADUMP_MSAHCI

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1963501 Reply

      mledman
      AskWoody Plus

      Failing memory is also possible although running fine in safe mode would seem to make this unlikely.  If there are two sticks, you could try running with one then the other.  Cleaning the memory stick contacts with a pencil eraser wouldn’t hurt.  In device manager, are any devices (including hidden) shown as having problems?

    • #1963519 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      All devices that I can check in safe mode are showing as working normally.

      Thanks

    • #1963668 Reply

      GoneToPlaid
      AskWoody Plus

      Hi JoeP,

      At around 5 minutes, I will get one of the following. either the home screen, blank screen, BSOD or an error message saying Windows explorer stopped working.

      5 minutes into the boot process is when all Windows boot-up StartType=0x3 SERVICE_DEMAND_START 0x00000003 drivers actually load. This can be stuff like, for example, Dropbox or Flash or other programs or AV software performing checks for updates.

      The upshot is that you gave me a clue in terms of your issue, especially since you mentioned that the possible outcomes occur 5 minutes after booting, regardless if whether or not you boot normally or into Safe Mode.

      Please download and run Nirsoft BlueScreenView directly from the author:

      https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/blue_screen_view.html

      Your errors are occurring in your OS’s kernel, and 5 minutes after booting up. BlueScreenView will highlight the most likely driver, which is running under the kernel, and which is causing your issues.

      Best regards,

      –GTP

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #1963697 Reply

        satrow
        AskWoody MVP

        JoeP’s BSV listing, AVG’s are the latest drivers (though not showing in the latest dumps, Safe Mode?), dates are Created on, ie. when built by AVG, not when installed.

        JoeP_BSV

        Attachments:
        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1963676 Reply

      PaulK
      AskWoody Lounger

      Drastic measure; much work.

      Apply the ‘Bare Bones’ configuration given by Black Viper.
      Note that this will result in a not very functional system, but it may help narrow the list of suspects. Obviously document profile of services before-and-after.

      One can selectively remove irrelevant columns of information.
      BVCols-1
      BVCols2-1

      Do heed the “Bare-bones” ~ WARNING!! paragraph. Alternatively, consider setting some services at the Tweaked or “Safe” level.

      IF system stays up, re-enable changed services in bunches, or reconfigure to Tweaked or Safe. Your judgment.

      Attachments:
    • #1963734 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      Hi JoeP,

      At around 5 minutes, I will get one of the following. either the home screen, blank screen, BSOD or an error message saying Windows explorer stopped working.

      5 minutes into the boot process is when all Windows boot-up StartType=0x3 SERVICE_DEMAND_START 0x00000003 drivers actually load. This can be stuff like, for example, Dropbox or Flash or other programs or AV software performing checks for updates.

      The upshot is that you gave me a clue in terms of your issue, especially since you mentioned that the possible outcomes occur 5 minutes after booting, regardless if whether or not you boot normally or into Safe Mode.

      Please download and run Nirsoft BlueScreenView directly from the author:

      https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/blue_screen_view.html

      Your errors are occurring in your OS’s kernel, and 5 minutes after booting up. BlueScreenView will highlight the most likely driver, which is running under the kernel, and which is causing your issues.

      Best regards,

      –GTP

      Thanks GTP. I did download and ran the BSV from Sysnative.  I uploaded the tile to OneDrive. Satrow listed the results. Does that provide the information you need? If not, I will run the Nirsoft  version.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1963736 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      JoeP’s BSV listing, AVG’s are the latest drivers (though not showing in the latest dumps, Safe Mode?), dates are Created on, ie. when built by AVG, not when installed.

      JoeP_BSV

      Thanks Satrow,

      I completely removed AVG using their removal app. There was no change. What do you suggest as a next step?

      JP

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1963793 Reply

        satrow
        AskWoody MVP

        Did you read this? Is the page/swap file/virtual memory *disabled* now?

        Lots of InPage* errors logged in MSInfo32’s WER section, as well as many Application errors from MS Office apps that use paging by default.

        MSInfo32

        The most recent dumps have all been 0xF4’s, as I’ve previously mentioned, they’re usually drive-related malfunctions.

        So we need to investigate the Seagate drive: SeaTools would be a start, run both the long and short tests, please.

        Attachments:
        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1963833 Reply

      anonymous

      From JoeP (non logged-in post?) #1962408, “The computer will run in Safe mode for a long period of time. I did not time it but there has been no issue there.”

      JoeP, this again makes me feel it is a “windows normal mode” problem that is not present in Safe Mode. It also makes me feel that it is not hardware if it “running fine” in safe mode (or with a boot-able CD). Safe Mode -may- use a different “bit” like 16 or 32 and not 64 (I thought…) but it also uses the standard VGA drivers and standard “everything” drivers. It is possible that one of those 32/64 bit normal mode services or drivers is causing the issue.

      It is also possible that some program you have installed that does run in Normal Mode (like an antivirus) is causing this. I am not trying to lessen other posters ideas. All are good.

      But, if it is hardware why is it OK in Safe Mode? If it is RAM, again why is it OK in Safe Mode. We are back to video or “normal mode drivers/services”.

      The failure of it to boot and run properly with the MSCONFIG services not Microsoft turned off, worries me. I hope you do not have a root kit. If this can not be fixed soon I hate to say you may have to try and “re-install windows on top of itself” with the method that is non-destructive to your current data on the drive.

      Winhelp’s Margus Saluste mentions, “If your computer is unable to start Windows normally, boot into Safe Mode and use it to enable Clean Boot mode. If Windows runs flawlessly in Clean Boot mode, then some third-party software or driver is causing the stability problems.”

      Non-destructive reinstall of Windows Vista and 7 By Margus Saluste
      https://www.winhelp.us/non-destructive-reinstall-of-windows-7.html

      Can you give “Clean Boot Mode” a try once again?

    • #1964318 Reply

      GoneToPlaid
      AskWoody Plus

      Hi everyone,

      I strongly suspect that JoeP may be dealing with a failing hard drive. I have asked JoeP to let me examine his Speccy report file and his memory dump files so that I can determine whether or not he has a failing hard drive.

      Until I determine whether or not JoeP has a failing hard drive, please do not ask him to try any additional potential solutions for resolving his issues. If JoeP is dealing with a failing hard drive, it is best that he leaves this computer powered off.

      Satrow may have already looked at JoeP’s Speccy report file. JoeP’s computer is a Dell OptiPlex 3020 (circa 2013) which may have a Seagate hard drive which actually is a rebranded Maxtor hard drive. Maxtor, before they went bankrupt, deliberately made sure that their hard drives would not correctly report S.M.A.R.T. data in order to warn users of Maxtor hard drives that their hard drives were failing. The only way to determine whether or not a Maxtor hard drive, or a Seagate rebranded Maxtor hard drive is failing, is to use Speccy or a similar utility such as Crystal Disk Info, and to look at the raw S.M.A.R.T. data.

      I have been down this road several times with older (now replaced) Dell computers at the office.

      Best regards,

      –GTP

      • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 5 days ago by  GoneToPlaid.
      • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 5 days ago by  GoneToPlaid. Reason: fix typo
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1964514 Reply

        satrow
        AskWoody MVP

        Attachment here shows it is a Seagate, it also contains Windows Error Reports and a lot more detail.

        we need to investigate the Seagate drive

        I’ve been suggesting a failing drive since my first Reply

        Bugcheck code: 0xF4 is often a drive problem, sometimes firmware on the drive. esp. with some SSDs.

    • #1964673 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      Did you read this? Is the page/swap file/virtual memory *disabled* now?

      Lots of InPage* errors logged in MSInfo32’s WER section, as well as many Application errors from MS Office apps that use paging by default.

      MSInfo32

      The most recent dumps have all been 0xF4’s, as I’ve previously mentioned, they’re usually drive-related malfunctions.

      So we need to investigate the Seagate drive: SeaTools would be a start, run both the long and short tests, please.

      Thanks Satrow – just to follow up on a couple of items. The computer rebooted with the VM set at 0. I did not see a BSOD, but it did reboot at around 6 minutes. After that, I changed it  and used the recommended amount of 6021 MB to see what would happen. It continued the BS after around 5 minutes or so. It is still in that mode now but shut down temporarily.

      I looked into the Seatools. Are you looking for the bootable USB or some other way of getting the info? I want to make sure I get the right information.

      Thanks again for all your help.

    • #1964676 Reply

      satrow
      AskWoody MVP

      Bootable USB looks the best way – on bare metal Windows, not a VM.

    • #1964751 Reply

      GoneToPlaid
      AskWoody Plus

      Joe’s Speccy report clearly identifies the hard drive as a Western Digital drive, not a Seagate drive.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #1964770 Reply

        satrow
        AskWoody MVP

        So it does, my bad.

        @joep: I think SeaTools will still work, otherwise use the Trial version of Hard Disk Sentinel to get the SMART stats and to run the Short, then Extended tests (if either fails, check you have a full recent backup or at least all valued files/software keys etc. stored safely away from the PC).

        HDS-tests

        Attachments:
    • #1964785 Reply

      GoneToPlaid
      AskWoody Plus

      Here is the direct link to download Western Digital’s Data Lifeguard Diagnostic for Windows:

      https://support.wdc.com/downloads.aspx?p=3&lang=en

      It might be worth running WD’s utility since their utility may check some proprietary info within the hard drive.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1964796 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Plus

      Backup your important data now.

      Group G{ot backup} TestBeta
      Win7Pro · x64 · SP1 · i3-3220 · RAM 8GB · Firefox: uBlock Origin - NoScript · HDD · Canon Printer · Microsoft Security Essentials · Windows: Backup - System Image - Rescue Disk - Firewall
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1965096 Reply

        JoeP
        AskWoody Plus

        Ran the test. They both failed. Here are the results. Not much to go on, but the results are not good.

        Disc-test-results

        Attachments:
        • #1965120 Reply

          GoneToPlaid
          AskWoody Plus

          Hi JoeP,

          That is really weird. SMART status is fine, yet the drive clearly is having issues. I think that the hard drive’s motherboard is having issues. Another possibility is that the computer motherboard’s I/O chipset is having issues.

          Let’s rule out the computer motherboard. Temporarily install the hard drive in another computer as an additional hard drive, and then run the same WD tests on the hard drive.

          If the WD tests pass, then you have an issue with your computer’s motherboard. We will deal with that separately.

          If the WD tests again fail, then the hard drive’s motherboard is having issues, and the following are my recommendations:

          The hard drive’s motherboard is attached to the bottom of the hard drive using four Torx screws — probably T6 or T7 size screws. A set of Torx screwdrivers are dirt cheap, and are handy to have in your toolbox.

          Amazon sellers are selling new WD5000AAKX-75U6AA0 hard drives for around $20. You might consider buying one and swapping its motherboard onto your existing hard drive. Three outcomes are possible:

          The first outcome will be that most or all data on your hard drive is still intact and the drive will work fine. In this scenario, the drive should now pass the WD tests.

          The second outcome is that the hard drive controller on the motherboard has written some gibberish to the hard drive platters. Yet in this scenario, the drive should still pass the WD tests.

          The third outcome is that even though SMART isn’t reporting any errors, something is wrong with the internals of the hard drive. This is by far the least likely outcome since and unlike Maxtor, I have never caught WD not properly updating SMART data on their hard drives. If anything in the internals of the hard drive were failing, then the SMART data would have been updated over time as things got worse. Yet your hard drive’s SMART data is peachy good.

          If you decide to purchase another hard drive in order to do the motherboard swap thing, you should do this while you are waiting for the new hard drive to arrive:

          Boot into Safe Mode since the drive seems to be much more stable in Safe Mode. This is because the hard drive is operating at much slower data transfer rates, and because the chips on the motherboard do not get as hot since the data transfer rates are much slower. Copy all of your important data to another hard drive — perhaps a portable external hard drive. I recommend this since I did see that backups of your hard drive have failed. The upshot is that now is the time to get all important data on the hard drive copied to another hard drive as soon as possible.

          Best regards,

          –GTP

           

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1965152 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      Hi JoeP,

      That is really weird. SMART status is fine, yet the drive clearly is having issues. I think that the hard drive’s motherboard is having issues. Another possibility is that the computer motherboard’s I/O chipset is having issues.

      Let’s rule out the computer motherboard. Temporarily install the hard drive in another computer as an additional hard drive, and then run the same WD tests on the hard drive.

      If the WD tests pass, then you have an issue with your computer’s motherboard. We will deal with that separately.

      If the WD tests again fail, then the hard drive’s motherboard is having issues, and the following are my recommendations:

      The hard drive’s motherboard is attached to the bottom of the hard drive using four Torx screws — probably T6 or T7 size screws. A set of Torx screwdrivers are dirt cheap, and are handy to have in your toolbox.

      Amazon sellers are selling new WD5000AAKX-75U6AA0 hard drives for around $20. You might consider buying one and swapping its motherboard onto your existing hard drive. Three outcomes are possible:

      The first outcome will be that most or all data on your hard drive is still intact and the drive will work fine. In this scenario, the drive should now pass the WD tests.

      The second outcome is that the hard drive controller on the motherboard has written some gibberish to the hard drive platters. Yet in this scenario, the drive should still pass the WD tests.

      The third outcome is that even though SMART isn’t reporting any errors, something is wrong with the internals of the hard drive. This is by far the least likely outcome since and unlike Maxtor, I have never caught WD not properly updating SMART data on their hard drives. If anything in the internals of the hard drive were failing, then the SMART data would have been updated over time as things got worse. Yet your hard drive’s SMART data is peachy good.

      If you decide to purchase another hard drive in order to do the motherboard swap thing, you should do this while you are waiting for the new hard drive to arrive:

      Boot into Safe Mode since the drive seems to be much more stable in Safe Mode. This is because the hard drive is operating at much slower data transfer rates, and because the chips on the motherboard do not get as hot since the data transfer rates are much slower. Copy all of your important data to another hard drive — perhaps a portable external hard drive. I recommend this since I did see that backups of your hard drive have failed. The upshot is that now is the time to get all important data on the hard drive copied to another hard drive as soon as possible.

      Best regards,

      –GTP

       

      Great, thanks GTP, but I was hoping for something more definitive. That is a good idea to swap it into one of my other computers. That certainly will eliminate one or the other. One other thing is that the short test barely ran at all before it failed. The long test ran about 90 minutes.

      if the HD motherboard is bad, Why not just replace the entire hard drive instead of investing all that time into disassembling both old and new. Haven’t priced one yet, but considering the age, it might be a better option.

      In addition, I tried to use a couple of backup apps today and could not get any to run in Safe mode. Any ideas on how to get them to run to make a more recent backup? I could probably run a backup once the HD is in another computer. I have one from earlier this month if needed.

      thanks again for all your help on this.

    • #1965178 Reply

      GoneToPlaid
      AskWoody Plus

      if the HD motherboard is bad, Why not just replace the entire hard drive instead of investing all that time into disassembling both old and new. Haven’t priced one yet, but considering the age, it might be a better option. In addition, I tried to use a couple of backup apps today and could not get any to run in Safe mode. Any ideas on how to get them to run to make a more recent backup? I could probably run a backup once the HD is in another computer. I have one from earlier this month if needed.

      I suggested the hard drive motherboard swap as a way to get your present hard drive working. If you don’t care about your hard drive’s contents, then simply buy a new hard drive and install it.

      Backup utilities won’t work in Safe Mode since Safe Mode does not support the creation of Volume Snapshots. This is why you can’t run third party backup programs in Safe Mode.

      Yep, I like your idea of trying to perform a backup with the hard drive in another computer. Yet as mentioned, first run the WD utility to see if the hard drive appears to be fine when it is installed in another computer.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1965218 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      if the HD motherboard is bad, Why not just replace the entire hard drive instead of investing all that time into disassembling both old and new. Haven’t priced one yet, but considering the age, it might be a better option. In addition, I tried to use a couple of backup apps today and could not get any to run in Safe mode. Any ideas on how to get them to run to make a more recent backup? I could probably run a backup once the HD is in another computer. I have one from earlier this month if needed.

      I suggested the hard drive motherboard swap as a way to get your present hard drive working. If you don’t care about your hard drive’s contents, then simply buy a new hard drive and install it.

      Backup utilities won’t work in Safe Mode since Safe Mode does not support the creation of Volume Snapshots. This is why you can’t run third party backup programs in Safe Mode.

      Yep, I like your idea of trying to perform a backup with the hard drive in another computer. Yet as mentioned, first run the WD utility to see if the hard drive appears to be fine when it is installed in another computer.

      That sounds like a plan. This may take a day or two to work it out, but I’ll be back once I have some updates.

    • #1966252 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      Here are the results of the WD utility scan. Seems like the HD is failing. This was while it was in another computer. I guess its time to get another HD. Any suggestions or would it be better to go through Dell for a replacement?

      Test Option:
      QUICK TEST

      Model Number:
      WDC WD5000AAKX-75U6AA0

      Unit Serial Number:
      WD-WCC2EUV47805

      Firmware Number:
      19.01H19

      Capacity:
      500.11
      GB
      SMART Status:
      PASS

      Test Result:
      FAIL

      Test Error Code:
      06-Quick Test on drive 2 did not complete! Status code = 07 (Failed read test element), Failure Checkpoint = 97 (Unknown Test) SMART self-test did not complete on drive 2!
      Test Time:
      21:24:43, September 26, 2019

      Test Option:
      EXTENDED TEST

      Model Number:
      WDC WD5000AAKX-75U6AA0

      Unit Serial Number:
      WD-WCC2EUV47805

      Firmware Number:
      19.01H19

      Capacity:500.11
      GB
      SMART Status:
      PASS
      Test Result:
      FAIL
      Test Error Code:
      08-
      Test Time:
      07:03:16, September 27, 2019

      • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  JoeP.
      • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  JoeP.
    • #1966273 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      I just checked pricing on these. $20 on Amazon. Wow, I should buy 2 and be done with it. I plan on upgrading my office computers at some point to Win 10, but I am no hurry. This will give me a little buffer.

      Joe

      • #1966373 Reply

        satrow
        AskWoody MVP

        What’s your plan for installing Windows on the new drive?

        • #1966408 Reply

          JoeP
          AskWoody Plus

          What’s your plan for installing Windows on the new drive?

          Good question. I was going to post that. I have a network drive in my office that has space, but I am not sure how to go about the process. Can you provide some guidance?

          I have not done this before.

          • #1966489 Reply

            GoneToPlaid
            AskWoody Plus

            It looks like you can use another computer and Dell’s utility to create a bootable USB drive in order to install Windows to your new hard drive. See:

            https://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/04/drivers/osiso/recoverytool/w764

            You will need a USB stick with at least 8GB capacity. Note that not all USB sticks can be made bootable, even though any USB stick is supposed to be bootable. Also note that really large capacity USB sticks might not boot. I have successfully made 8GB and 16GB USB sticks bootable.

            2 users thanked author for this post.
            • #1966547 Reply

              JoeP
              AskWoody Plus

              It looks like you can use another computer and Dell’s utility to create a bootable USB drive in order to install Windows to your new hard drive. See:

              https://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/04/drivers/osiso/recoverytool/w764

              You will need a USB stick with at least 8GB capacity. Note that not all USB sticks can be made bootable, even though any USB stick is supposed to be bootable. Also note that really large capacity USB sticks might not boot. I have successfully made 8GB and 16GB USB sticks bootable.

              I made a bootable USB stick yesterday so I can probably redo that one to use for the reinstall

    • #1966395 Reply

      Microfix
      Da Boss

      Try changing the Sata cable (new/working one) from MB connecting to HDD.
      then re-run the drive diagnostic utility
      Should that fail also..
      Try changing the sata port (with the new sata cable) on the MB connecting to the HDD.
      then re-run the drive diagnostic utility
      It may not be the drive..

      ********** Win7 x64/x86 | Win8.1 x64 | Linux Hybrids x64 **********

      • #1966415 Reply

        JoeP
        AskWoody Plus

        Try changing the Sata cable (new/working one) from MB connecting to HDD.
        then re-run the drive diagnostic utility
        Should that fail also..
        Try changing the sata port (with the new sata cable) on the MB connecting to the HDD.
        then re-run the drive diagnostic utility
        It may not be the drive..

        I can swap that with the other good one and see if everything boots up.

        Thanks for the idea

    • #1966494 Reply

      anonymous

      If changing the HDD you should consider going SSD. Will breathe new life into your machine. You can find 500GB drives for $40-$50

    • #1966507 Reply

      Paul T
      AskWoody MVP

      See this thread for details of migrating to a new disk.

      Replace old HHD with SSD Dell XPS 8930 Basic

      BTW, I’d put an SSD in for a much better computing experience.
      This post details SSD set up in W7.
      https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/ssd-life-new-question/#post-1532492

      cheers, Paul

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1966546 Reply

        JoeP
        AskWoody Plus

        See this thread for details of migrating to a new disk.

        Replace old HHD with SSD Dell XPS 8930 Basic

        BTW, I’d put an SSD in for a much better computing experience.
        This post details SSD set up in W7.
        https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/ssd-life-new-question/#post-1532492

        cheers, Paul

        So if I go with an SSD drive, are they all the same or do I need one specific to my machine in terms of the fittment?

        • #1967042 Reply

          Paul T
          AskWoody MVP

          So if I go with an SSD drive, are they all the same or do I need one specific to my machine in terms of the fittment?

          SSDs have the same mounts and connectors as HDDs. I’ve upgraded my machines – laptop and desktop – using Samsung EVO disks without issue.

          cheers, Paul

          2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #1967058 Reply

          Alex5723
          AskWoody Plus

          So if I go with an SSD drive, are they all the same or do I need one specific to my machine in terms of the fittment?

          There are different SSD devices :
          2.5″ 7mm SATA III SSDs to replace HDDs. There are M.2 NVMe PCIe (look like memory sticks) which are much faster then regular SSDs (6x+ faster). There are NAND SATA M.2 SSDs….
          Adding a MVMe SSD lets you keep your current HDD for data… Your PC need a slot for the NVMe SSD.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #1967081 Reply

            mn–
            AskWoody Lounger

            Actually there are even more different kinds, but the others are less common in regular PCs.

            Some models (particularly high-end laptops of a certain age, but others too) have mSATA slots, which can be hard to tell apart from M.2 – and indeed may be “dual-personality” parts on either side (slots that can accept either mSATA or M.2, devices that can go in either mSATA or M.2 slot). May have to check the connector key notches…

            If a desktop PC has a free PCIe slot, you can use that – direct PCIe SSDs may be expensive but M.2 adapters usually aren’t. Specifics vary, smallest adapter (if size is a priority) I remember offhand might be https://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=814&area=en … then there are even adapters that can connect multiple M.2 SSDs to a single PCIe slot.

    • #1967120 Reply

      anonymous

      I don’t know how old the Optiplex is but my 2011 Dell Inspiron and Win7 would not recognise the SSD until I had switched to AHCI in the BIOS.

      Be careful!

       

      • #1967303 Reply

        Paul T
        AskWoody MVP

        How did you fix the boot issue after changing to AHCI or did it not complain?

        cheers, Paul

        • #1976981 Reply

          anonymous

          Paul,

          I am sorry but I cannot remember exactly what I did to solve the problem.

          However, I remember that I could not clone the HDD to the new SSD because of the AHCI problem.  The error message just said “non-system disk” or something similar.

          I then tried to build a new installation from the Windows 7 Home installation disk – but that could not see the SSD because it lacked the AHCI drivers, IIRC. No error message – it just could not see the SSD.

          A friend suggested downloading the iso (overnight from digitalriver, IIRC) and, I think, that worked. Presumably, by then, the iso contained the AHCI drivers (5 years ago?).

          I recall that it was very frustrating trying to work out what was wrong.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1976274 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      As an update to this problem, I wasted a bunch of time trying to find a caddy that would hold the SSD drive I bought. There are none available. Either too small or just not won’t fit. I threw in the towel and bought the same HDD that is in the computer that went bad. These machines are pretty close to their life limits anyway so this will buy me some time before we upgrade them.

      I used the free version of Macrium to try and back up the drive. I wanted to try it first before buying and got some error messages. Here is a link to a Word doc that I uploaded to OneDrive that shows a screenshot of the errors.

      https://prestonco-my.sharepoint.com/:f:/g/personal/joe_preston-company_com/EraU9oOVO0JGljcp9xc0ei0BXdubTDUG4fxOWs6Fo4VhFw?e=fJ6XvA

      I then tried TeraByte backup software and it seemed to work, but it had some issues as well, just not as many.

      My question is, can I still use the TeraByte backup to restore it even though it had some issues. Will I create additional problems on the new drive when I try to restore it? The drive is supposed to arrive today.

       

      • #1976340 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Plus

        Hi Joe,

        Did TeraByte fully complete the backup by ignoring any bad sectors it encountered?

        In Macrium, you an configure Other Tasks >> Edit Defaults >> Advanced >> Advanced Backup Options and check the box for “Ignore bad sectors when creating images.” Doing so will allow Macrium to back up everything it can from your drive C: on the failing hard drive, while ignoring any I/O errors when Macrium tries to back up from bad sectors.

        I note that Macrium was able to back up your drive’s Dell and Recovery partitions. This means that you could restore these two partitions to the new hard drive and then perform Dell’s recovery procedures to create a new drive C: with the factory image of Windows and Dell’s utilities. This would be a “last resort” option since you then would have to get Windows fully updated, reinstall all needed software, and then copy all of your data from the failing drive to the new drive.

        Since you are still waiting for the new hard drive which is arriving today, you could configure Macrium to ignore bad sectors and then run the full backup again. Before starting the backup, make sure that you have enough free space on the drive which you are backing up to. You might have to delete Macrium’s partial yet failed backup in order to have enough free space.

        Let’s see what happens when you restore your backup to the new hard drive. I think that Windows will boot and that it will be stable. SFC /scannow either will report no errors or should be able to fix any errors it finds. If any installed programs are corrupt, you can simply reinstall them.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1976504 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      I did delete the prior backup from Macrium. I can probably run it again. I have a 2TB WD Passport drive so I have plenty of room.

      I ll run it again and see how it comes out. Here’s the link to the report.

      It did not complete the backup

       

      https://prestonco-my.sharepoint.com/:w:/g/personal/joe_preston-company_com/EZ-VgTEpxz9LhZM1GsuwY-IBbgFVmhtN5n3cJ16gXS4NlQ?e=iJLND3

      • #1976676 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Plus

        Can you copy and paste the text in Macrium’s log and post it here?

    • #1976902 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      This is the VSS log. I will be away until next week and will follow up then

      Thanks for all your help on this

       

      (Gathering writer metadata…)
      (Waiting for the asynchronous operation to finish…)
      Initialize writer metadata …
      – Get exclude files
      – Enumerate components
      – Get file list descriptors
      – Get database descriptors
      – Get log descriptors
      – Get exclude files
      – Enumerate components
      – Get file list descriptors
      – Get database descriptors
      – Get log descriptors
      – Get exclude files
      – Enumerate components
      – Get file list descriptors
      – Get database descriptors
      – Get log descriptors
      – Get exclude files
      – Enumerate components
      – Get exclude files
      – Enumerate components
      – Get exclude files
      – Enumerate components
      – Get file list descriptors
      – Get database descriptors
      – Get log descriptors
      – Get exclude files
      – Enumerate components
      – Get file list descriptors
      – Get database descriptors
      – Get log descriptors
      – Get exclude files
      – Enumerate components
      – Get exclude files
      – Enumerate components
      – Get file list descriptors
      – Get database descriptors
      – Get log descriptors
      Discover directly excluded components …
      – Excluding writer ” since it has no selected components for restore.
      – Excluding writer ” since it has no selected components for restore.
      – Excluding writer ‘MSSearch Service Writer’ since it has no selected components for restore.
      – Excluding writer ‘BITS Writer’ since it has no selected components for restore.
      – Excluding writer ‘Shadow Copy Optimization Writer’ since it has no selected components for restore.
      Discover components that reside outside the shadow set …
      – Component ‘\TasksStore’ from writer ‘Task Scheduler Writer’ is excluded from backup (it requires C:\ in the shadow set)
      – Component ‘\WriterMetadataStore’ from writer ‘VSS Metadata Store Writer’ is excluded from backup (it requires C:\ in the shadow set)
      – Component ‘\PerformanceCounters’ from writer ‘Performance Counters Writer’ is excluded from backup (it requires C:\ in the shadow set)
      – Component ‘\WMI’ from writer ‘WMI Writer’ is excluded from backup (it requires C:\ in the shadow set)
      – Component ‘\COM+ REGDB’ from writer ‘COM+ REGDB Writer’ is excluded from backup (it requires C:\ in the shadow set)
      – Component ‘\Registry’ from writer ‘Registry Writer’ is excluded from backup (it requires C:\ in the shadow set)
      Discover all excluded components …
      Discover excluded writers …
      – The writer ‘Task Scheduler Writer’ is now entirely excluded from the backup:
      (it does not contain any components that can be potentially included in the backup)
      – The writer ‘VSS Metadata Store Writer’ is now entirely excluded from the backup:
      (it does not contain any components that can be potentially included in the backup)
      – The writer ‘Performance Counters Writer’ is now entirely excluded from the backup:
      (it does not contain any components that can be potentially included in the backup)
      – The writer ‘WMI Writer’ is now entirely excluded from the backup:
      (it does not contain any components that can be potentially included in the backup)
      – The writer ‘COM+ REGDB Writer’ is now entirely excluded from the backup:
      (it does not contain any components that can be potentially included in the backup)
      – The writer ‘Registry Writer’ is now entirely excluded from the backup:
      (it does not contain any components that can be potentially included in the backup)
      Discover explicitly included components …
      Verifying explicitly specified writers/components …
      Select explicitly included components …
      Creating shadow set {ac448b20-91a0-4044-bbf1-b8c75d68f2ef} …
      – Adding volume \\?\Volume{50c2e6c9-e0ba-11e9-a173-806e6f6e6963}\ [E:\] to the shadow set…
      – Adding volume \\?\Volume{50c2e6ca-e0ba-11e9-a173-806e6f6e6963}\ [F:\] to the shadow set…
      Preparing for backup …
      (Waiting for the asynchronous operation to finish…)
      (Waiting for the asynchronous operation to finish…)
      Creating the shadow (DoSnapshotSet) …
      (Waiting for the asynchronous operation to finish…)
      (Waiting for the asynchronous operation to finish…)
      Shadow copy set successfully created.
      Saving the backup components document …

      List of created shadow copies:

      Querying all shadow copies with the SnapshotSetID {ac448b20-91a0-4044-bbf1-b8c75d68f2ef} …

      * SNAPSHOT ID = {06e390d3-6b8e-439f-8a22-987d5f6778f0} …
      – Shadow copy Set: {ac448b20-91a0-4044-bbf1-b8c75d68f2ef}
      – Original count of shadow copies = 2
      – Original Volume name: \\?\Volume{50c2e6c9-e0ba-11e9-a173-806e6f6e6963}\ [E:\]
      – Creation Time: 10/7/2019 12:59:15
      – Shadow copy device name: \\?\GLOBALROOT\Device\HarddiskVolumeShadowCopy14
      – Originating machine: HomeOffice-PC
      – Service machine: HomeOffice-PC
      – Not Exposed
      – Provider id: {b5946137-7b9f-4925-af80-51abd60b20d5}
      – Attributes: Auto_Release Differential

      * SNAPSHOT ID = {7917971d-922f-486b-8d0b-dc95e900123e} …
      – Shadow copy Set: {ac448b20-91a0-4044-bbf1-b8c75d68f2ef}
      – Original count of shadow copies = 2
      – Original Volume name: \\?\Volume{50c2e6ca-e0ba-11e9-a173-806e6f6e6963}\ [F:\]
      – Creation Time: 10/7/2019 12:59:15
      – Shadow copy device name: \\?\GLOBALROOT\Device\HarddiskVolumeShadowCopy15
      – Originating machine: HomeOffice-PC
      – Service machine: HomeOffice-PC
      – Not Exposed
      – Provider id: {b5946137-7b9f-4925-af80-51abd60b20d5}
      – Attributes: Auto_Release Differential

    • #1977566 Reply

      Paul T
      AskWoody MVP

      The error message “Backup aborted, cannot read from disk” implies a disk or controller problem.
      The log shows normal operation of the snapshot mechanism but no mention of the backup itself.

      I’d work on the basis that your disk is flakey and should not be used.

      1. Create a Macrium/TB boot USB. Test it.
      2. Connect your new disk on the same cables as the flakey disk.
      3. Connect the flakey disk to a new cable.
      4. Boot from your USB and clone the old disk to the new disk.
      5. Remove the old disk and boot from the new disk.

      Let us know how it goes.

      cheers, Paul

      p.s. to mount an SSD in the old HDD slot, just use 2 screws on one side only – allow the other side to float. There is no mechanical part and it’s really light so it doesn’t have to be rock solid.

    • #1981002 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      It looks like I was successful in replacing the old HDD with a new one and got everything up and running again. I used TeraByte backup and it was able to create an image so that I could reinstall everything. Surprisingly Macrium was unable to work as well and would not finish the image backup. I plan on buying a copy of TeraByte for my set of 4 computers.

      Thanks everyone for all of your help. I never would have been able to accomplish this without it. I learned a lot in the process and now feel much more comfortable in taking this kind of failure head on.

      As I mentioned before, I will be replacing them at some point with Win 10 Pro. At that point, I will be able to transfer everything from the old to the new using the same process.

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1981096 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Plus

        That is splendid news! We all learned a lot from what you went through.

        Macrium, when configured to ignore bad sectors, should have been able to complete its backup. I have been thinking about that. The drive may have been incorrectly reporting its free space. If that is the case, then I think that Macrium should have caught and worked around this issue.

        I am still puzzled about the bad hard drive’s SMART report not showing any issues. I googled “enable SMART in BIOS” and then I read this page:

        https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/should-i-enable-s-m-a-r-t-in-bios-pros-cons.673110/

        It appears that if SMART is disabled in BIOS, then the SMART diagnostics within the hard drives attached to the computer will not log any errors.

        JoeP, could you look for the SMART setting in your BIOS and tell us whether it is enabled or disabled?

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1981213 Reply

        anonymous

        Hello JoeP, I am very happy you and others found the issue. Satrow, mentioned Hard Drive and many people had good ideas.

        I thought it was software since it ran OK on safe mode. While you were testing the drive I did ask in post #1965059 if you ran CHKDSK in its entirety, meaning the full drive scan that includes the free sectors. No guarantees but this could had seen a bad sector in an unused section of the drive, that occasionally would get used, and cause an error. We had a PC that gave BSODs as windows was installed. Afterwards it ran “fine”. A few weeks later I ran CHKDSK and had it check the free space too. At the end of the drive, the last 100 sectors from the very end, was one bad sector. THAT was what was happening weeks earlier during the install. The sector was marked bad by CHKDSK and we used the PC for years afterwards.

        I had a friend that recently had his backup software warn him that his drive was going bad. He immediately went to the place he bought his computer and got a new drive. so it is strange that some backup programs will see a fault but windows itself says nothing.

        I also notice people suggesting getting an SSD. This is fine, but in some cases it is just best to use the same drive as a replacement and have a quick swap. If you went years before failing, stick with the same and it all fits properly.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1981248 Reply

      JoeP
      AskWoody Plus

      I checked the SMART option in the bios. It was not checked (disabled) which sounds like why Macrium had an issue. I checked the box and will do the same with all the others as well. As these machines age, it would be a good idea to log any potential issues. They are on all the time so I am anticipating more issues, but hopefully not.

       

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