• Cloning vs. Backing Up a Computer

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    #2317988

    Recently the 2TB Western Digital Blue 3D NAND solid state C drive on my less than year-old HP ENVY 795 – 0050 workstation running Windows 10 version 2009 experienced a catastrophic failure.

    Fortunately, I had an identical replacement drive in storage and all I thought I needed to do was to replace the non functioning SSD with a new one, use Acronis 2019 to recover the operating system and files from the workstation’s D drive or an external drive, and get back to work.

    Unfortunately, after multiple attempts, I could not recover the system using Acronis Rescue Media stored on a USB flash drive.

    As a last resort, I turned to a HP Recovery Kit stored on a USB drive to format the new SSD and return the workstation to its as delivered condition. It worked. After installation the machine booted and was ready to upgrade to Windows 10 Professional and install a series of Windows updates.

    After completing the Windows update process, I installed Acronis 2019 from a CD and tried to recover my programs, documents, photos, etc. again.  Nope, Acronis failed again.

    The next step in the recovery process was to reinstall the programs I use on a regular basis: Microsoft Office 2019 Professional, WordPerfect Office X9 and associated programs, Adobe Acrobat, Dragon NaturallySpeaking Professional, MathWorks, etc. I also recovered Outlook 2019 and Dragon profiles from files I had exported to backup drives independent of the Acronis backups.

    I then installed the “non functioning” SSD drive in a NexStar CX external hard drive enclosure and plugged the USB cable into the workstation in hopes that I could at least recover my document files. Once again failure. The drive simply was not readable.

    As a last resort, I downloaded and installed Wondershare Data Recovery. After scanning the damaged SSD drive for just over 16 hours Wondershare “recovered” 1,647,965 files. Unfortunately, I was only able to actually recover a couple of Excel spreadsheets and a bunch of graphic images from the Wondershare’s recovered files.

    What I did learn after running Wondershare was that our practice of using PCmover Professional to move applications, files, and settings from old to new computers over the decades resulted in the transfer of a huge amount of detritus from a Windows XP machine to a Windows 7 PC, and ultimately to the current Windows 10 HP workstation. We will think twice before using PC Mover again in an attempt to avoid moving a growing number of garbage files from machine to machine.

    The next step in the recovery process was to copy all of the document files from the old Lenovo Windows 7 workstation that I had retired in January 2020 to an external drive and then transfer them to the new HP PC. It worked. Then came the painful effort to track down copies of spreadsheets, documents, presentations, etc. created during 2020 from a variety of places including, but not limited to, cloud storage and email attachments.

    In all, it probably took three days to recover the system and I will have to continue tracking down or recreating “lost” files over time.

    Out of curiosity I wondered I could reformat the “damage SSD drive”. It worked. I then ran Western Digital’s Data Lifeguard Diagnostics on the old SSD. It passed with flying colors. That done I thought I would simply clone the workstation’s recovered C drive onto the old SSD and put it away for safekeeping. It worked.

    Having gone through the process of recovering a C drive with document files dating back as far as the mid-nineteen eighties I began to wonder if it would be smarter to simply periodically clone a computer’s C drive onto an external drive and then copy the machines document files onto the D drive and/or an external drive on a periodic basis for safe keeping.

    Using the cloning/copying approach, I would not have to go through the uncertainty of using recovery software such as Acronis in the future.

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    • #2317991

      Interesting idea of cloning a C drive and periodically copying vs. backing up with Acronis or Marium.  See the discussion related to updating Acronis at  https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/upgrading-to-acronis-true-image-2021/   for additional insight on the backup recovery issue.

      • #2319898

        Clone, clone and then clone. I keep 3 generation of my several computers.  One of the clones is a pristine copy of the original OS before I start installing programs. I then do a clone just before installing a new (to the computer) program – just in case.  Then I do a final clone after the installation.  Sounds like a lot of wasted hard drives (or solid state drives) but I really hate the idea of reinstallation after a catastrophic failure.  Point: you do not need to have the fastest drive for your clone. The older (make that cheap) HD’s  will do perfectly fine.

        Of note: the latest installation of Acronis 2020 turned out be a serious resource hog.  I uninstalled it and considered the $$ I spend a valuable lesson.  I now either duplicate with a stand alone duplicator or use the free Clonzilla program (info here ).  Works perfectly fine as long as you realize that the drive size is an issue because how the utility works.

        I frequently do a backup of my documents, pictures etc. to a separate drive just in case.  For that exercise I use Total commander ( info here ) because I like the two panel approach that program offers.  There is yet another recovery program called Spinrite but out by Gibson Research that will actually recover lost files due to bad sectors.

        Best of luck and be safe, Al

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2320040

          Cloning is only of value if you have a spare drive of the right size that you don’t need for anything else, or can’t wait to replace a failed drive.
          Image backup allows you to use one disk for all your backup needs and allows quick recovery of a corrupted, but otherwise OK disk.

          cheers, Paul

          2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2319931

        My fave backup was always Symantec Livestate recovery it worked wonders on our email servers and blackberry server as well as many other applications.

        Acronis in my experience has the highest data compression rate but i am using macrium reflect at the mo and it has not let me down!

        Cloning is probably the quickest way to get back up to speed and if you have spare storage i would say its the way to go – with backups you always have the problem of it getting corrupted with a clone all you will lose is out of date data and corruption you can probably recover from in less time!

        I have a secondary hard drive in all my laptops now replacing the cd drive in the bay with a removeable drive tray so cloning every friday runs automagically and allows me if i have a problem to simply change the boot option and boot into the backup without any drive swapping or any other hassle within seconds – try doing that with an image!

    • #2318007

      First off, I would not trust a disk that had failed and was now working. Your data (and time) is worth much more than a replacement disk. Wipe and junk that disk, or give it to someone who wants one to play with.

      The second question is what is your physical setup? Do you have all the machines in one location and networked? Are they home machines? This will have a bearing on what mechanisms you can use.

      cheers, Paul

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2318042

      I rarely depend on a drive image as a “backup”. I use my drive images for a quick restoration of my OS. I prefer my backups to be files that don’t require any special software to recover. I use a combination of Cobian https://www.cobiansoft.com/ and Bvckup 2 https://bvckup2.com/.

      We generally store files on a different drive than the OS but that depends on how the files are used in the user’s environment. Normally keep at least 4 weekly backups with incrementals created at least once daily, backed up to automatically mounted and dismounted drive(s). Every couple years we replace the backup drive with a new one and archive the old drive.

      The other thing I like to do if possible is archive old files that are rarely accessed so we don’t waste time backing them up every week. That isn’t always possible of course.

      One major point to consider is don’t keep all of your backups in the same geographic location. Learned that after a major storm. Luckily we didn’t need it, but our safe deposit box  where we stored backups wasn’t accessible for at least a month. If I had needed them I would have been SOL. I added online backups thereafter, in addition to local and safe deposit box. Currently we use Backblaze while a few of our clients use Carbonite.

      Never Say Never

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2318101

        Thank you for introducing me to Cobian Backup and Bvckup. We will look into them as alternatives to Acronis. Have you ever had to recover the system using Cobian or Bvckup?

        I am afraid that I am a creature of habit and have been running the operating system, programs, and storing files on the same drive.

        Of course in the early days of DOS programs were stored on one 5 1/4 inch floppy in one bay and files on another – no hard drives in my Epson Equity I or Leading Edge Model D. But then again that was back in the mid-nineteen eighties

        Our practice, on the machine that failed, was to have Acronis 2019 back up the C drive every day at 5:30 PM and to an external hard drive on Fridays.

        Like yourself, we do not store the backups that are saved on an external disk at the same location as the workstation being backed up.

        • #2318109

          Have you ever had to recover the system using Cobian or Bvckup?

          They don’t backup the system, they back up chosen directories and files maintaining structure. My system recovery is to restore the drive image which usually includes very little if any data in most cases, then copy files from my backups made with Cobian or Bvckup to their locations overwriting any older files if they exist in the image.  I also incorporate some auto-run backups of certain registry keys that are included in them.

          I’ve done it so many times over the years I don’t even really think about it.

          Never Say Never

        • #2319503

          Acronis 2021’s most recent update has been giving me significant problems. After launching its GUI it takes around 10 total minutes to change the time the program runs. For me, where there’s smoke, there’s fire, and I now find nothing trustworthy about a disaster recovery/backup program which can’t run smoothly.

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      • #2319508

        Thanks for that cyberSAR. To me, what I really want is a system drive backup program/disaster recovery program which runs flawlessly and smoothly. After using several versions of it over the years, Acronis has never proved to be such a program. So now I’m nosing around to replace it.

        I have backups to my backups including Windows File History, cloud storage via Google Drive, and iDrive. I set them up so I don’t have to even think about any of them.

        But I still need a flawless, easy-to-use, non-Windows, local system drive backup program/disaster recovery program which backs up to a local drive. And I don’t want to consider any version of any programs related to Symantec even if they still exist. I think I’ll start over with reviews like PC Magazine’s.

        • #2319769

          Because all Acronis editions have had some sort of problems for me over the several editions I’ve used, and because the 2021 True Image control panel would take 7-10 minutes to load, just now nuked Acronis from the machine. I had negotiated that license to a cost of $35, down from $49. But when backup software fails and the support is slow and inadequate the cost is meaningless.

          While weighing and considering the various recommendations of non-Windows backup software on Ask Woody and other sites I use, I just started a trial of Macrium. Its interface is fairly obtuse for someone who isn’t used to computer geekery. But since I’ve lots of experience running computers and building a small LAN, I managed to sort through some initial settings to see how Macrium behaves on an automated schedule, using whatever file settings it recommends.

          Time will tell.

          • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Mr. Austin.
          • #2319832

            I would set up email reporting of warnings and errors. Always worth knowing about backup issues early.  🙂

            cheers, Paul

    • #2318058

      I have a different backup regimen, and depend on drive imaging, multiple copies of data and cloud storage.

      Hardened Windows.

      Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
      We were all once "Average Users". We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems, we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2318062

      Personally I use a program called “Casper” to clone my C drives on all of my computers. It’s not free but it has been well worth the money for me over the years as a complete replacement for a failed drive. It has saved my bacon on quite a few occasions. There is no rescue disc or anything else, just a duplicate drive.

      Casper clones an identical copy of a point in time so the cloned drive is just a swap out to get back to that point in time. I clone my drives a couple of times a month. Anything that is important between cloning is saved to a USB for replacement to the cloned drive if needed.

      I’m not a salesman, just a user.

      Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
      All W10 Pro at 22H2,(2 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2318273

        Thanks for letting us know about Casper.

        For now we will continue to use the cloning tool in Acronis True Image 2019. Despite my other problems with Acronis, its cloning tool seems to work.

         

      • #2319672

        Casper. I have been using this SW to CLONE my HD and now SSD for years, since the SW was developed.

        I have used others to image and not one would restore the image.

        I use Cobian to backup data files each night, saving 2 full backups.

        I run CASPER  once a week, or more often before a WIN update. I control when that occurs.

        I keep 2 generations on 2 external SSD. I test the cloned SSD after each iteration to insure it will boot

        I NEVER use the ‘cloud’ to store anything important that is not on a local drive.

        Never had a failure in 4 years or longer. And yes I have to ‘restore’ the master drive (C) at times because I tinker -hack -around with W10 internals..and I make mistakes. Easier to swap out SSD then fix my screwup 🙂

        I have wondered why the CASPER SW does not get more use or recommendations. Its a great product..and no ,I also am not paid to recommend it, just another satisfied user.

        RR

        My background, 25 years Data System Application designer and Data Base design along with Data base System Admin- OLD mainframe Sys  (USN Civil Service)

    • #2318278

      IMHO, cloning is not the way to go. I much prefer doing Images with a reliable program like Macrium Reflect (there are others, e.g. Image for Windows by Terabyte). You might want to see this thread for a way to automate your backups with Reflect Free.

      HTH 😎

      May the Forces of good computing be with you!

      RG

      PowerShell & VBA Rule!
      Computer Specs

      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2318334

      I was under the impression that Macrium Reflect was a cloning app. They are telling me that it backs up EVERYTHING on the hard drive (including the OS) to an external HDD, and that I can move the whole shebang in one step. I’ve been trying to figure out the best way to move from a failing SURFACE Pro 4 to a Pro 7. The Pro 7 was delivered with Home (v. 1903) and my Pro 4 has Pro (1909). I’ve been receiving info here on how to move the OS separately from the apps, files, etc. but this would then require another way to move all that other stuff.

       

      D. Eager

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      • #2318878

        D. Macrium Reflect is NOT a cloning program (i.e. bit for bit copy of one drive to another). It is an Imaging (Bit for Bit copy of an entire drive to a compressed file on another drive) and File Backup program.

        Note: the Paid version has the capability to restore the Image to dissimilar hardware.

        HTH

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

        • #2319934

          Au contraire dear chap I have been running it now for a couple of years since my copy of Acronis stopped working on Windows 10 and i can assure you it does offer cloning its just not under the menu options but under the drive partition display!

           

           

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    • #2318354

      For me it comes down to how unique the computer is.  For work, the best way forward would be standardized gold image with possibly some scripting (a la Ansible or Chocolatey) to do configuration that can’t be handled by sysprep, GPO, or other standard tools.  The more data you have on the device, the more of a “pet” it is, and I prefer to work with livestock.  As long as your gold is relatively good you can give a decent experience to most or all of your users.  Data backup then is handled by the server or NAS and should be handled by those normal jobs.

      For unique computers, as long as most of the data is stored off of the unit itself imaging is generally the way to go, especially if configuration doesn’t change often.  If you do a lot of configuration changes on the unit, then regular backups may make more sense.  The one problem with full disk imaging is that it often requires the replacement disk to be larger than the original, in the case of the same-sized disk being used manufacturing differences could leave you where your image won’t transfer as your original disk is too large by a couple sectors.  Ways around this, but I find those solutions to not always be as successful on restore.

      For my personal systems, I copy the files I care about somewhere else for storage.  I have very few things on my computers that I actually care about, most of which are backed up or copied onto home NAS units running RAID 5 or 6.

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      • #2318915

        The one problem with full disk imaging is that it often requires the replacement disk to be larger than the original, in the case of the same-sized disk being used manufacturing differences could leave you where your image won’t transfer as your original disk is too large by a couple sectors.

        Imaging is not cloning, and an image can be restored to whatever size drive that is capable of holding the data, not the data-plus-free-space.  A larger capacity drive than the original is never necessary.

        Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
        We were all once "Average Users". We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems, we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2318765

      The following are the steps I took while trying to recover from a catastrophic failure of my C drive of my workstation.
      1. Started computer and booted from USB stick containing Acronis rescue material,
      a. From the home screen selected the D drive that contained an Acronis backup for recovery,
      b. Selected recover whole discs and partitions as the recovery method,
      c. Selected the disc to recover,
      d. After reading the Summary click on Proceed to start recovery, and
      e. Nothing was recovered.

      Tried procedure 1. several times on both the D and an external backup drives and was unable to recover the computer.

      2. Installed a new 2 tetra bite SSD drive and followed the steps in procedure 1. above without success.

      3. Recovered the PC’s original C drive configuration through the use of HP’s recovery media,
      a. Attempted to recover using steps outlined in 1. above without success.

      4. Installed Acronis 2019 from the original CD,
      a. Identified the D drive to recover from and clicked on recovery, and
      b. Follow the steps on the screen – no luck in recovering files after several attempts,
      c. Followed the steps outlined in 4. A. and b. this time identifying the external drive as the recovery media – still no luck.

      At this point I gave up on using Acronis 2019 to recover the system and tried to use software to recover the lost files on the damaged drive.

      • #2318912

        The following are the steps I took while trying to recover from a catastrophic failure of my C drive of my workstation.

        I beg your pardon if I”m being too direct, and I mean no condescension in any way, but drive failure has always been a matter of when, not if.  I have had my share, believe me.  It is for that reason that my Hardened Windows regimen evolved almost twenty years ago.

        To recover from catastrophic drive failure almost invariably involves replacing the drive with a new one.  That part being completed, for Hardened Windows practitioners, the rest is just restoring images.  Mine are never more than a week old, and my data copies are never more than a day old.

        When it’s all over, the only thing missing is the failed drive.  Nothing else is lost, including the time trying to recover data from the failed drive.

         

        Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
        We were all once "Average Users". We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems, we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2319396

          I try to separate my data from the operating system and the programs also. My practices are more about content than programs – operating system or application programs. Over the years, on my personal machines, I do less custom configuration. And work more often with basics like Windows Explorer or Perl.

          I guess that puts me in the Backing Up, not the the Cloning, camp.

    • #2318928

      FWIW, our experience with Acronis backup software (used over a period of several years, ~2009-15) was less than stellar. I didn’t realize how slow their image creation process was until one time I needed to use an Acronis drive image and the True Image software refused even to recognize the image it had made a few days before. After restoring the system from a Windows system image (our alternative imaging method), we tried Macrium Reflect and I discovered how much faster creating an image could be. And a Macrium image restoration has never failed to work for us.

       

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    • #2318931

      Acronis will mount the backup image files as if they were disks, allowing you to copy data to anywhere you want. This is a common feature amongst backup software.

      Try mounting the image files by double clicking them on a machine that has Acronis installed.

      cheers, Paul

      • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Paul T.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2318932

      Note: the Paid version has the capability to restore the Image to dissimilar hardware

      This is much less on an issue with W10 using UEFI. As long as W10 can see the disk – not using an unusual disk controller – you can boot the new system easily.

      cheers, Paul

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2319378

      I have been using an internal SSD for the System drive [OS and SW only], a second cloned bootable 2.5 inch SSD, and a physically separate internal Data drive. Most of the systems I build and support are desktops with an ICYDOC in the front bay that can mount a 2.5 inch and a 3.5 inch directly to the motherboard SATA ports without any interfering electronics.

      If I  need to restore the internal system SSD, I put the backup SSD into the ICYDOC 2.5 inch slot, boot to it, migrate it back to  the internal SSD, then do updates, install any new SW, settings [most of which I have screenshots of], and try to remember to activate GoodSync since their licensing is tied to the physical drive.  Once the internal is all caught up to date, I migrate it to the backup SSD that I remove to storage.

      In most cases, I backup the data daily to a NAS using GoodSync, and I occasionally clone the System SSD using MiniTool Partition Wizard 11. I am not a fan of incremental backups. A GoodSync data backup looks exactly like the data drive folders and files, and it can do versioning with various settings. It can also be set it and forget it.

      I have only two clients that used Acronis and both have failed to restore a system successfully. After experiencing my routines, one client dropped Acronis, and the other is still enamored with it, but at least his data is also backed up to his NAS with GoodSync.

      When MiniTool came out with version 12 of Partition Wizard, they moved to an expensive subscription model to unlock the System Migration, so it is good to hear about Casper. I will check it out.

      • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by rafisher1. Reason: I added paragraph two
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    • #2319367

      My suggestion to cloning is, don’t. Or at least keep the cloned copy disabled. I cloned for a year or so, keeping the clone live but updated once a month. During one Win10 update windows decided the the clone was the ‘real’ C: drive. Of course you cannot just swap drive letters when one is C:. The clone was nearly a month out of date. Several programs decided I had a new, additional, pc and either did not work or wanted to charge for the extra device. The problems just kept coming!

      • #2319417

        I didn’t realize I needed to sign in, so my reply is awaiting moderation.

        Not aware of how you are doing it, I can only assume you are not doing it right. In my routine when I boot to a different System drive, it becomes C: and the other one has different or no drive letters.

        Migrating to a bootable SSD on a somewhat regular basis has saved my and my client’s proverbial bacon many times.  One of the applications is an audio/video editor who had a system failure while with a client sitting there at rate.  All he had to do was put the Backup SSD into the ICYDOC, boot to it, maybe add some plugins, and get back to work.

        I had another client whose system SSD flat out died.  He booted to the backup, we updated it, he ordered another SSD, and when it came, installed and migrated the backup to the new internal.  It was his business computer and he didn’t miss a beat.

        If you would like some assistance, let me know.

      • #2319618

        I could not get specifics in a short search but IIRC there is a unique identifier that get written to a HDD by windows, cloning can duplicate that # on the clone. This causes problems with windows

        🍻

        Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
      • #2319626

        I cloned for a year or so, keeping the clone live but updated once a month

        I use an adapter to hook up my cloning disc whenever I am ready to clone. Leaving the cloned disc “live” in the computer is defeating the purpose of cloning. If you get hit with ransom ware or in your case an update, your clone is gone with it. The whole point of cloning is to have a point in time to go back to by swapping the disc out.

        Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
        All W10 Pro at 22H2,(2 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

    • #2319389

      I use Acronis to take disk images and copy them to a NAS and an external drive. I’ve twice had to recover the boot system from one of these, each time without a problem.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2319426

      First, Macrium Reflect IS a CLONING program, I use it for just that. Tedious, works well. It is not JUST for imaging.

      I am from the cloning camp. Mostly use free Aomei Backupper, has served me WELL. It is forgiving when cloning from a less than perfect drive. Clone once a month to a second internal drive {desktop computer} as well as a USB drive.

      I find that when a clone fails to complete, running CHKDSK on the source drive can many times help.

      I use Karen’s Replicator {free} to back up my files daily to the second internal drive as well as two USB drives. I find Karen’s Replicator the best folder / file backup there is. Authors are responsive to questions and improvements.

      Acronis True Image no longer gets my money. Way too picky for a PERFECT source drive. Like Norton Security, wants to “own” your drive and hogs plenty of resources. Been using Acronis True image for nearly 20 years and gave up. Disappointing. Except for a one time installation to the C: drive, I only used it by booting to its CD and running it from there. Better results.

      As for Imaging, my personal opinions / feelings here: too much of a hassle: not readily understandable by customers, has to be “mounted” to see any files for recovery and always needing the SAME program available to use the compressed image for any reason. Possibly, needing the same version of the program that created the image rather than a newer version of the program.

      Cloning is “one and done”. Not too much of a hassle to test the clone, depending on the computer. On mine, a Dell desktop, I can switch the boot drive in BIOS to test the clone {it is MBR not UEFI}.

      In both cases, Cloning and Imaging, a second drive is needed. To test an image fully, a third drive is needed.

      Files on a cloned drive are readily available, requiring no special software.

      I keep up-to-date copies of my data and all downloaded files installed and backed up at my office {away from my home}.

      I use web based Gmail for e-mail. Works for me.

      It is not my intention to get into a Clone versus Imaging debate. It is whatever works for you that makes you comfortable. I understand that imaging allows you to image several computers on ONE hard drive and that is convenient. On the backside, if that drives fails so, too, does the images for several computers.

      That issue that bothers me the most is that for 99% of my customers, they NEVER think about backing up or they simply feel the computer is automatically doing it for them! This is a case of being ignorant is truly blind. They fail to understand no device on the planet will last forever, why would they believe that a computer would?

      I have been into personal computers and mainframes since 1987. Worked on a ten member team deploying, setting up and repairing computers in all of the northeast states. It was a great job and learning experience. Made some good friends, especially with those smarter than myself!

       

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    • #2319453

      I am late to this subject and have no clue about backups working or not working because I don’t really use backups as they are described in this thread. Although, I am thinking about that now but in any case, I will continue my processes as I’m about to describe.

      My method works for me. Since I don’t build or even try to repair my computers when they fail, what I do is keep identical copies of all my data files on 5 external drives plus on all 5 of my computers. If I make a change to any data file I immediately copy it to all the devices I just mentioned. I do not back up any program I can reinstall using any method available, unless you consider keeping a copy of that program’s installation a backup. I clean up and compress my Outlook pst files on at least a weekly basis and then copy that pst file to all the previously mentioned devices. That way I never lose much, if anything, from Outlook either.

      Once I have the computer back from the shop with a new drive installed, I go about the process of installing all my programs. It may be time consuming but it also lets me decide on a one to one basis if I need or even want a particular program any more. At most it may take me 12 to 16 hours. But since I’m retired I don’t mind the time it takes. Once all the programs are reinstalled it is just a matter of copying all the data files from either my external drives or any of the network computers back to the correct folders on the repaired computer. That doesn’t really take too long and then I’m back in business.

      I know this method is not for everyone but it serves me well and I don’t have to worry about a system backup working or not working.

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      • #2319460

        WShlewton:

        Your thread is here. If you have abandoned it, please let us know so we don’t spend further time on backup instruction.

        https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/pausing-windows-10-updates/

        On permanent hiatus {with backup and coffee}
        offline▸ Win10Pro 2004.19041.572 x64 i3-3220 RAM8GB HDD Firefox83.0b3 WindowsDefender
        offline▸ Acer TravelMate P215-52 RAM8GB Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1265 x64 i5-10210U SSD Firefox106.0 MicrosoftDefender
        online▸ Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1992 x64 i5-9400 RAM16GB HDD Firefox116.0b3 MicrosoftDefender
    • #2319464

      I know this method is not for everyone but it serves me well and I don’t have to worry about a system backup working or not working.

      Yes that method will work well, but it is time consuming, and you still run the small risk of being unable to locate some installer media, or personal files. Plus the need to have on hand all of the serial numbers required to re-activate the software.

      It would probably take me two weeks to reinstall and re-activate everything. But it only takes about me about 40 mins to restore a system image (or less to swap in a clone) with everything exactly as it was before.

      Windows 10 Pro 22H2

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2319469

      Acronis will mount the backup image files as if they were disks, allowing you to copy data to anywhere you want. This is a common feature amongst backup software. Try mounting the image files by double clicking them on a machine that has Acronis installed.

      Speaking of a common feature, this same method will mount the image as a drive (letter of your choice) using Macrium Reflect.

      Even a native Windows 7 image file can be mounted as a VHD (Virtual Hard Disk) using Windows Disk Management [Action > Attach VHD].

      https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/disk-management/manage-virtual-hard-disks

      You can then read and copy the files and folders anywhere you please. No need to make extra data backups unless you are doing them more frequently, or just wish to store them elsewhere in alternate locations.

      Windows 10 Pro 22H2

      • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by JohnW.
      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2319440

      I have used Acronis without problems on my old Windows 7 PCs. Little bit worried now with the new Windows 10 PC with Acronis 2020 on it. I have not had to recover anything with it so no bad or good experiences to share yet.

      I have used Acronis to single backup the C disk that has only Windows and program files. Thus the backup file is not wery big, only about 45 GB. I have stored the backup files to external drives too so I have several earlier backups to try in case the latest backups turns out to be corrupt.

      All other files I have on other disks of the desktop that I backup regularly. I may be a bit old school, but I use Robocopy of DOS to do the backup to external disk with the help of self made BAT files. Robocopy just copies the changes so it usually is quite fast after the first copy. In order to be sure the files that I am backing up and that I have backed up are OK, I have used Fastsum program to calculate and verify the md5 checksums of the files.

      Just in case somebody is interested in my bat files, here are the listings. You can use for example notepad to edit and save these:

      The backup.bat listing first:

      @echo off

      if not exist D:\My_Files goto :NOTFOUND

      @echo.
      @echo First the backup source and destination will be compared and a raport will
      @echo be shown about what would be the result of the backup. That is,
      @echo which files and folders in the destination will be deleted, replaced etc.
      @echo.
      @echo The result of the backup is that the destination will be exactly like the
      @echo source was when the backup started
      @echo.
      @echo Then it is asked whether the backup operation is OK to be made
      @echo.
      @echo D disk My_Files to G disk – checking
      @echo It will take some time to go through all the files…. please wait…

      robocopy D:\My_Files G:\My_Files /MIR /ZB /R:3 /V /FP /LOG:D:\sync.log /L

      rem start/wait notepad D:\sync.log

      CALL SEARCHCHANGE

      @echo off
      start/wait notepad changes.txt

      @echo.
      @echo **************************
      @echo.
      @echo Do you really want to do the backup now?

      @echo off
      CALL ASK_YESNO
      if errorlevel 1 goto :NOBACKUP

      @echo.
      @echo.
      @echo D disk My_Files to G disk – copying
      @echo.
      @echo It will take some time to go through all the files and back up changes….
      @echo Please wait…

      robocopy D:\My_Files G:\My_Files /MIR /ZB /R:3 /V /FP /LOG:D:\sync.log /NP

      CALL SEARCHCHANGE

      @echo.
      @echo.
      @echo *** D:\My_Files backup to G disk has been completed ***

      @echo off
      start/wait notepad changes.txt

      goto :end

      :NOBACKUP
      @echo.
      @echo.
      @echo Nothing done with D:\My_Files

      goto :end

      :NOTFOUND
      @echo.
      @echo D:\My_Files not found
      :END

      And then the SEARCHCHANGE.BAT that the backup.bat uses:

      @echo off

      rem CD..
      rem CD..

      if exist changes.txt del changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=*extra dir

      @echo **********************************************************************
      @echo Changes are searched from sync.log file
      @echo.
      @echo The changes are collected to file ‘changes.txt’, that will be opened
      @echo by notepad
      @echo.
      @echo **********************************************************************
      @echo.
      @echo Searching and collecting … May take some time…
      @echo.
      @echo.
      rem @echo off
      @break on

      SET SEARCH=Source :
      FOR %%a IN (*.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=Dest :
      FOR %%a IN (*.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=Skipped Mismatch
      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=Dirs :
      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=Files :
      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=Bytes :
      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=*extra dir
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt
      @echo Searching for : %SEARCH% >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt

      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=*extra file

      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt
      @echo Searching for : %SEARCH% >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt

      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH= Older

      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt
      @echo Searching for : %SEARCH% >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt

      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=Newer

      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt
      @echo Searching for : %SEARCH% >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt

      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=New dir

      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt
      @echo Searching for : %SEARCH% >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt

      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      SET SEARCH=New File

      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo. >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt
      @echo Searching for : %SEARCH% >> changes.txt
      @echo ********************************************* >> changes.txt

      FOR %%a IN (D:/sync.log) DO FIND /N /I “%SEARCH%” %%a >> changes.txt

      @echo on

      And finally the ASK_YESNO.BAT

      @echo off

      SET /P ANSWER=Answer Yes or No (Y/N)?
      rem echo You chose: %ANSWER%
      if /i {%ANSWER%}=={y} (goto :yes)
      if /i {%ANSWER%}=={yes} (goto :yes)
      goto :no
      :yes
      rem echo You pressed yes!
      exit /b 0

      :no
      rem echo You pressed no!
      exit /b 1

      You can put these three bat files for example in the folder D:\Backup_BATs. To run these in DOS cmd window it is convenient to have a shortcut to cmd.exe in that folder too. As the place where you want to open your command prompt is on a different folder than the default you need to put an additional command in the Target field in shortcut tab, in this case:

      C:\Windows\System32\cmd.exe /k “D: & cd D:\Backup_BATs\”

      It will change to the drive D: from the current drive, and than open the D:\Backup_BATs folder. The & operator is used to put multiple commands in a single line at the windows command prompt.

      Further, click in the shortcut’s Advanced button menu that this is run as an administrator.

      Naturally my backup method is not the most foolproof one as you have to be extra careful when you edit the bat file for example to change the folder you want to back up. And the limited character set requires extra measures if the BAT targets to a folder having spaces or letters like äö in its name. Thus most convenient is to put all your folders and files you want to backup to a folder that has simple name such as My_Files

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2319487

      WShlewton:

      Your thread is here. If you have abandoned it, please let us know so we don’t spend further time on backup instruction.

      https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/pausing-windows-10-updates/

      I have not abandoned it at all. Since you are familiar with that thread and you should recall, I ordered a new USB external drive to give that imaging backup a try. Why would you even think that? I only tried to say here what I have done for years and how it seems to have served me well. Plus I am thinking the topic of that thread you linked will happen to me again. So, I have not abandoned it.

       

      I’m sorry but I had no idea I had to abandon one thread to post in another. The topics really are not the same at all.

      • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by WShlewton.
    • #2319499

      IMHO, cloning is not the way to go. I much prefer doing Images with a reliable program like Macrium Reflect (there are others, e.g. Image for Windows by Terabyte).

      I’m in full agreement with this statement!

      I will add that Cloning and Imaging are very similar processes.

      But the main differences are:

      • Cloning makes an exact copy of one physical disk onto another physical disk at 1:1 ratio.
      • Imaging makes a copy of the disk (actually by partition, but I typically select all) to a file container (image file) stored on another physical disk. The advantage here is that compression can be used, as well as smart sector copy (all of the sectors in use are copied, but omits the free space, paging and hibernation files). This way more than one image file version can possibly be archived on the same physical backup disk.
      • It is also possible with Macrium (what I use, and probably others) to image a forensic copy without smart sector copy, and get every bit in the image including free space, etc. Optional.
      • Macrium does backups, imaging, and cloning, and those are probably common features to many other backup products as well.

      With images you can also deploy strategies like differential and incremental images. This is useful if you would need to run images more frequently, or were challenged for space on your backup medium.

      • A differential image stores the changes that have been made to the imaged file system since the last full image. Subsequent differentials can be taken, but only one differential and the full are required in order to fully restore the system.
      • The main difference with incremental images is that they only store file system changes since the last image, either full, differential or incremental. The resultant backup set therefore consists of a full image and a number of incremental images which must all be present in order to restore the system correctly.

      Windows 10 Pro 22H2

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2321445

        I agree as well. I have used Macrium Reflect for several years, through multiple version updates. I am in awe of the abilities of many of the commenters here to go to great lengths to protect their data. I am sure their methods are superior to mine.

        However, being extremely lazy (!), I use Macrium’s scheduling capability to “set and forget”. My images go from a 1 terabyte internal drive to an external 4 terabyte USB hard drive. Incremental images run six days a week. At the end of the week, a differential image is made. Once each month, it’s all wrapped up with a full system image. They all run automatically overnight and I never have to touch anything. In addition to these backups, I sync most of my data to the cloud using OneDrive.

        If I want to retrieve files or folders, a couple of clicks will mount an image into its own virtual “drive” which is fully searchable and copyable. I use Total Commander for that. My external drive is large enough that I keep a few months’ full images on it so that if I have recently deleted something that I now want to have, I go to one of these older images to get it.

        Being extremely prone to making mistakes (!!), I have restored an image several times without a problem. Yes, it takes a while to restore but it has saved my bacon over and over. Unless both of my drives die at the same time, I am not concerned about my ability to replace a drive and resume operations. I do understand all the good advice about taking further precautions, including off-site storage, but as I said, I am lazy and willing to take the risks that I run. Works for me.

    • #2319509

      Considering backups, I only use them for software.  My important documents are in the cloud (icloud).  Larger videos that would not overly weep over are on an external ssd.

      Every week I use Carbon Copy Cloner to clone my O.S. because updates can and will kill my system just as I am starting to work (Murphy’s law), I need to get up and running immediately.  In addition, I use Time Machine to back up.  I can restore individual files and/or the whole anchilada, but it takes hours.  I am on an advanced preview, so I learned the hard way: Unfortunately, newer Macs disable USB booting, which I discovered too late. However, restoring from the clone or Time Machine backup worked great, and my paid software was restored.  Then I changed the option to boot to USB in Recovery.  Again, I am just being overly cautious because I am working on a preview O.S.

      For Windows, I use Image for Windows to create image backups on a local server, and it has been reliable over the years.  I restore backups every week, and it can back up drives with bad sectors.  It does not work on Macs.

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2319510

      Using the cloning/copying approach, I would not have to go through the uncertainty of using recovery software such as Acronis in the future.

      True, Kathy. But when I’d tested the Acronis 2020 drive cloning process on my system drive (570 GB data/2TB SSD capacity of the same exact brand and model as yours) the clone can take several hours on a 2018, 8-core (i7) Windows 10 box with 32 GB RAM and an 8 GB video card . So I opted out of that to backup only the system drive’s data with Acronis, and that gets done in 7 to 20 or so minutes to a USB 3, 8 TB Seagate drive (yeah, I already know that Seagate ain’t the young horse it once was).

      • #2319564

        When I clone a drive I place the target media in a NexStar external hard drive enclosure and plug its USB cable into the workstation.

        I do the actual cloning late at night when I am not using the workstation so the time it takes to complete the task is not a critical factor.

        In addition, I clone the C drive of the work station on the last day of the month.

        In the event of a system failure, all I need to do is take the replacement drive out of the external hard drive enclosure and install it in the computer.

        I still back up the system using Acronis 2019 at 5 PM each day and periodically copy all of my documents files to an external drive.

        In the end I have both the Acronis backup and a fail safe cloned drive and ability to recover document from the external drive.

        I am still reviewing alternatives to Acronis.

         

    • #2319502

      Like many of you, I don’t like putting all eggs in one basket.  Having a Synology NAS to store data provides options.  My computers are backed up to the NAS 1 weekly using Synology Active Backup for Business.  They are also backed up weekly to an older, semi-retired NAS 2 using Acronis.  Acronis has always successfully restored drives for me when I called on it.  Sorry that many of you had poor experiences.  The main computer backups to NAS 1 are then backed up weekly to Synology’s cloud using Synology Hyper Backup.  The secondary Acronis computer backups are on NAS 2, just in case.  Data on the main NAS is backed up daily to Synology’s cloud using Hyper Backup.  And then, because I thrive on redundancy, I have tertiary daily backups of real important data to places like Google Drive or OneDrive.  So, if restoration from Active Backup fails, I still have Acronis backups.

      Works for me.  For whatever its worth.

    • #2319630

      From reading some of the comments, it seems there may be a bit of a misunderstanding of terms.  If you clone something, it is an exact copy, but that is not the case with a bootable backup system drive.  I learned this the hard way when MiniTool Partition Wizard support sent me the registry changes to make to the mounting of the system drive until they fixed the issue in their software and released the new version.

      The mounted internal system drive identifier is listed in the registry, and if you clone the drive, the registry on the cloned drive will still have the internal system drive identifier as the system drive. Properly programed migration software like Partition Wizard modifies the registry on the backup drive to use the identifier of the backup drive for the system drive.

      This might explain why PW uses the term migration instead of cloning.

      Clear as mud?

      • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by rafisher1.
    • #2319781

      I found links to explain UniqueID.

      https://superuser.com/questions/1105615/windows-does-not-boot-after-changing-hdds-uniqueid

      and this one with links to s/w to change the UniqueID rather that the diskpart command line method.

      https://www.tenforums.com/backup-restore/134940-cloning-disk-signature-collisions.html

      I am thinking some cloning s/w will have an option to do this as part of the ‘cloning’ process. Maybe hidden is a submenu.

      🍻

      Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
    • #2319772

      Been using Macrium (free edition) for years to create and to restore from images. Never had a problem. My strategy is to keep my C drive as lean as possible. That means keeping graphics, video, and audio files on other internal drives. then………
      > Use Macrium to image the C drive and save the image to an internal drive (D) and to an external HDD that is normally off and not connected. An extra copy of the image is kept on a flash drive. The lean C drive means very fast imaging.
      > Maintain copies of all the graphics, video and audio files etc on a second external drive also not connected when not in use.
      > Frequently backup my browser and email using Hekasoft Backup and Restore (saved to external drive). Tried and true.
      > Lastly, everything is backed up onto an external HDD which resides off site and is updated whenever I feel the need.

      The keys to preventing disaster are:
      > Develop a system that works for you
      > Find reliable software that won’t let you down
      > Don’t get lazy. Backup frequently.

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2319840

      To me, what I really want is a system drive backup program/disaster recovery program which runs flawlessly and smoothly.

      I find Acronis 2019 to run flawlessly and smoothly. I use Acronis for years and never met a problem.
      I won’t upgrade until Acronis remove the new Anti-malware… parts of the program and return the .tib file type (there is a hack for that) replacing .tibx.
      I run full PC image (all partitions all drives) twice a month and daily incremental backup in-between.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2319938

      Had my very first failure with ATI 2015 restoring a drive from image yesterday. Got almost finished and failed. Figured what the heck and tried again without rebooting and it worked fine. Spent a little time playing some more with Macrium and I just despise the interface. Not happy with the interface of the newer ATI’s either. Big issue for me now is the prevalence of NVME drives, so I ordered an old version of ATI (2017) to try out. I have 2 brand new versions of 2021 sitting on my desk and don’t even want to try them. Don’t need all the bloat. Don’t want tibx file extensions, etc, etc.

      Never Say Never

    • #2320094

      With the reduced cost of SSDs I have homed in on 500 GB drives and now have an active SSD and 2 clones for each of my 3 desktops. I used to use Acronis but now generally use Macrium Free.For the Lenovo laptop, where I cannot get to the SSD, I have to make a disc image.

      Cloning is a much easier route.

      Mel

    • #2320114

      I have become a believer in your approach of drive imaging, multiple copies of data, and cloud storage.

      Me too except I don’t use the cloud for anything especially my personal data files.

    • #2320194

      It has been interesting following this thread. The diversity of views and approaches to protecting data in the event of a system failure has been comprehensive.

      The hands down favorite tool for saving data is Macrium Reflect. In fact, about 1/3 of the respondents favored Macrium. The Macrium software comes in a variety of forms including: Free, Home, Workstation, Server, Server Plus, Technicians, and Deployment Kit.  The question comes down to finding the Macrium Reflect package that fits your needs and budget.

      What amazed me is the love-hate relationship with Acronis. 15% of the respondents will not use Acronis while 19% of the respondents are Acronis users.  This is interesting in light of 11% of respondents used Acronis in the past and were unsuccessful in recovering an Acronis backups.

      Cloning/imaging has been an area of extended discussion.  15% of the respondents are comfortable with cloning and/or imaging while 7% think it is not a good approach to preserving data.

      It is also interesting to note the number of other software packages that are available for system backup including: Total Commander, Symantec Livestate, Cobian, Bvckup 2, Casper, GoodSync, MiniTool, Partition Wizard, Aomei Backupper, Karen’s Replicator, Robocopy for DOS, Carbon Copy Cloner, and Synology NAS.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2320192

      Glad to see Cobian mentioned. It’s old, it’s free, it works. All it does is copy files individually or zipped. Restoring is not a feature. The files are where you put them. If you want them just get them.

      I wish the current owner would do an update just so we know someone is there.

    • #2320205

      Just want to validate your common sense instinct is correct.

      Backup tools are such a pain UNLESS:

      you need incremental bakups to protect your work. Incrementally saving new files automatically is a worthy goal, can be done at night withhout your effort.

      But if you are just backing up all your apps and OS every 90 days, I prefer cloning myself

      be well, breathe and honor wabi sabi

    • #2320272

      I failed log on  in my first post on this issue.

      Yes I use FSS CASPER ,  has never failed with a recovery.

      Now, I took to heart the super experts options and comments about the main drive  ‘ID”  in the registry. I admit I failed to  understand that. Stated the CLONED drive would not function in WIN due to the hard link of the master drive ID would not match the ID of the cloned drive.

      Reported Mini Tool Partiton SW had this problem resolved. I have that SW but have not tried to clone.

      I did not contact Casper. I have always been able to swap the cloned drive for the master drive and boot to windows. Today I ran a better test , I booted the clone and ran many programs, all functioned with no issue. I ‘trust’ ‘assume’ CASPER has resolved the alleged issue with this drive ID. I might take the time to ask them

      Can someone point to the data in the registry entry with the boot drive ID or is it in  the MBR? Its not a real problem for me, just interested.

      I clone my master boot drive 2 to 3 times a week, and clone the secondary drive (data)once a week. The price of SSD is makes this low cost and fast. I keep 2 to 3 iterations of the boot drive.

      Day data backup with Cobian are on a USB thumb drive. Functions perfect a nice program.

      Been a nice discussion, good information.

      • #2320629

        This depends on the Windows version and boot arrangement.
        You cannot fix it by editing the registry.

        What version of Windows are you running?

        cheers, Paul

      • #2320659

        I took to heart the super experts options and comments about the main drive ‘ID” in the registry. I admit I failed to understand that. Stated the CLONED drive would not function in WIN due to the hard link of the master drive ID would not match the ID of the cloned drive.

        […]

        Can someone point to the data in the registry entry with the boot drive ID or is it in the MBR? Its not a real problem for me, just interested.

        See [HKLM\SYSTEM\MountedDevices].

        I’ve got an explainer video that discusses these issues at the time segment from 12:45 to 15:25.

        If you want to understand the partition signatures as used on MBR disks, see my webpage from a decade and a half ago. That scheme was used on NT through at least Win 7, and a cursory sampling shows it was still in use on Win 8.1 and even 10 when installed on an MBR disk. I believe GPT disks use the disk GUID in place of the DiskID.

         

    • #2321185

      I personally use Clonezilla, an open source swiss army knife tool for imaging my disks, it is Linux based  I use it to back up both Windows and Linux installations. I run it from a bootable USB stick. I have found it to be super reliable and it has saved my bacon many times. It does have a bit of a learning curve, but once you master it,  you won’t look back. You can work with complete disks or select partitions too. It can also do network backups. On my older systems with conventional drives , it can back up at about 6-7 Gb / minute, newer systems a bit faster. It also compresses the image. Works with PATA, SATA, SSD, and Nvme drives. It is available on the Sourceforge website and is free. Just my two cents! This program plus backing up data files (docs, pix, music, videos) to an external HDD or cloud based storage makes it fairly painless to keep good backups for the day when disaster strikes.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2321261

      I personally use Clonezilla, an open source swiss army knife tool for imaging my disks, it is Linux based I use it to back up both Windows and Linux installations. I run it from a bootable USB stick. I have found it to be super reliable and it has saved my bacon many times. It does have a bit of a learning curve, but once you master it, you won’t look back.

      I have used Clonezilla to image my Linux disks, and it works great.

      I would recommend it if you were comfortable using DOS, and are comfortable working with those types of menus and command lines. And there is some required reading to get it working.

      Since there is no modern GUI to work with, I wouldn’t recommend it to non-techies, such as my sister, or many of my friends.

       

      Windows 10 Pro 22H2

    • #2423410

      Well, it has happened again – a Windows 10 boot failure and the need to reconsider our PC backup policy.

      For a no-good reason we began to have problems with the mouse on one of our Windows 10 workstations. In an attempt to overcome the problem we:

      • Rebooted the system – still had the problem.
      • Tried several backup mice – still had the problem.
      • Ran “Check your operating system” from HP’s Support Assistant – still had the problem.
      • Fiddled around some more with the system’s settings – and Windows refused to reboot.
      • Disconnected and reconnected the workstation’s power and was taken to the HP recovery screen during startup.
        • The HP recovery screen presented several options including “repair Windows” – tried and failed several times.
        • Disconnected and reconnected the power from the workstation and was again presented several recovery options including recover from a restore point.
          • Tried to recover from the oldest available restore point – after 16 hours of dots chasing themselves around a circle we gave up and unplugged the computer.
          • Reconnected to the battery surge protector and powered up and tried to recover from the most recent restore point – success!

      All this to come back to the clone vs. backup discussion.

      Since beginning this thread on December 8, 2020 the world has changed.

      Acronis has imposed an update for current and older versions of Acronis True Image and it is not clear what, if any, impact the update will have on privacy and reliability.

      Western Digital is now offering Acronis True Image, for systems with WD drives, that was released on 9/8/2021 and does not require the forced Acronis update.

      At the same time, Western Digital 4TB Elements USB SSD portable drives are widely available for less than $90.00 US.

      In light of the above, we are now:

      • Using Western Digital Acronis to do daily backups of our C drives to internal D drives,
      • Coping all files saved on C drives to external drives on Fridays (the Documents, Downloads, and Pictures directories as well as exporting Outlook files), and
      •  Cloning C drives to one of two external USB SSD portable drives on alternate Wednesdays,
      • Storage of external drives is in a climate-controlled outbuilding.

      This may be overkill, but system availability is critical to our business activities.

    • #2423453

      This discussion, so far, has been assuming that the OS does not come with a built-in tool to restore a whole HD or SSD, or at least all of one’s data from a recent back up in an external drive, in case of drive failure or a ransomware attack. Also this discussion has been, I believe, only about cases where Windows 10 is the OS. But there is no reason why other OS and their protective measures cannot be mentioned as well, as this topic is of interest to everyone, non-Windows users paying AskWoody subscribers, for example, YT included.

      Besides, much of the following is just common sense and applicable to Windows too.

      So Mac users like me, if they don’t already know it, be informed that:

      (1) Ransomware attacks against Macs do happen.

      (2) That the backup software that comes with macOS is a lifesaver one can use in a dire situation: SSD or HD failure, corruption, or ransomware attack:

      https://macmyths.com/mac-viruses-time-machine/

      A good, real-time anti virus adds a good layer of protection:

      https://www.macworld.com/article/231118/best-antivirus-for-mac.html (I use “Intego”, a real-time AV recommended by Nathan Parker.)

      Finally, one can clone the internal drive using an utility such as Carbon Copy Clone:

      https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/19/carbon-copy-cloner-for-mac-overhauled/

      In  near 30 years of using PCs of my own, I’ve never bothered to clone or make compressed images of my main drive. Because I’m too lazy and, or like to live dangerously? Maybe. I’ve used restore points with Windows and backing up my date to external HDs until moving completely to a Mac in January 2020, since then keeping my files backed up to a dedicated external drive with the Time Machine (TM) utility that comes with macOS.

      Even so, there can be a problem in case of a real Ransomware attack (not a scam one, meant to scare people into paying for a non-existent problem), in particular one that locks one out of the Mac. In that case, if one can, one could try to log into the Mac in Recovery Mode:

      https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201255  (Note: the “firmware password”, mentioned here, is one the user, optionally, may set up, or not.)

      Or else in Safe Mode:

      https://www.macworld.co.uk/how-to/how-use-mac-safe-mode-3623521/

      Then one could choose, among other options, to re-install macOS and then reinstall and run the AV to search and destroy the ransomware installed in the internal drive and then bring back one’s data from their external back-up made with Time Machine. Hoping the last back up was made before the infection, otherwise the ransomware is likely to be also in TM. So scanning the TM drive and taking care of detected infected files with the AV is recommended — or not, deleting the suspect to be infected files from TM instead, based on their post-infection backup date (if one has a good idea of when the infection took place …) — depending on whom you ask. And then one would need to re-install various applications, for that being useful to keep the product keys somewhere outside the computer.

      A last resort would be to remove the compromised internal HDD or SSD and replace it with a new one, install macOS in it, then copy one’s data kept in an external backup disk. Or take the computer to an Apple certified shop to have this done by people who, presumably, know how to do it.

      A real hassle? Definitely. And not for free. But better than paying a ransom to some crooks that will benefit from it and may not even bother to give one the de-encryption key when they cash one’s money …

      For more information:

      https://www.macworld.com/article/231118/best-antivirus-for-mac.html (I use Intego.)

      https://ransomware.org/

      Any informed opinions, including some to the contrary, shall be appreciated. If any given, then thanks for that in advance.

      Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

      MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
      Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
      macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

    • #2423493

      Also this discussion has been, I believe, only about cases where Windows 10 is the OS.

      Well this thread is in the Windows 10 Questions section of Ask Woody, so that would be expected.

      Windows 10 Pro 22H2

      • #2423530

        JohnW: Quite so. And as I pointed out, the title of the thread is very generic, making its topic one of far wider interest:

        Cloning vs. Backing Up a Computer

        It says “a computer”, not “a Windows 10 computer.” And several comments, so far, may apply to, but are not Win 10 specific.

        Rather than starting a thread on this same topic for any OS of interest to anyone here, I think that this is already, by default, whether so intended or not, the thread to comment on any of them. Besides, much of what is to be said about cloning vs. backing up applies across OS: what is good for the gander, is good for the goose. But not everything, so if there is something specific to an OS, that requires a separate note, or notes.

        As certain JohnW has done already in the case of Linux, I believe?

        Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

        MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
        Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
        macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

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