• Do we really want (or need) Windows 12?

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    #2465579

    PATCH WATCH By Susan Bradley The famous old idiom “moving the deckchairs around on the Titanic” is sometimes applied to technology. Even though the sa
    [See the full post at: Do we really want (or need) Windows 12?]

    Susan Bradley Patch Lady

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    • #2465586

      No thanks,
      it will be nice not to be a guinea pig all the time;
      if only for the so-called updates and upgrades

      * Is this a fact: "foreignpolicy.com/2022/04/25/the-real-threat-to-social-media-is-europe", Really? * get out of the poisonous Metaverse *
    • #2465588

      My self-build desktop from 2011 has never faltered, running Win 10 Pro now, I have no intention of tormenting it with Win 11. My 2020 self-build, running Win 10 Pro, is likewise running smoothly, I don’t need Win 11. I’ve recently purchased an SSD to run virtual machines, I’ll look at Linux and maybe get off this enforced Microsoft rollercoaster.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2465614

      If there were a valid reason for upgrading to Windows 12, I would consider the change.

      Carpe Diem {with backup and coffee}
      offline▸ Win10Pro 2004.19041.572 x64 i3-3220 RAM8GB HDD Firefox83.0b3 WindowsDefender WuMgr
      offline▸ Acer AspireOne Atom N270 RAM2GB HDD GuineaPig
      online▸ Win11Pro 21H2.22000.856 x64 i5-9400 RAM16GB HDD Firefox104.0b8 MicrosoftDefender WuMgr
    • #2465644

      At this point they’re still trying to fix 11, so why not introduce a new version and try to get everyone to jump? It’s happened before (XP after ME, 7 after Vista, 8.1 after 8), no reason they wouldn’t try again.

      I’m still happy with 10. It largely stays out of the way and lets me do my work without bugging me too much. Start menu is ok, taskbar works, apps work. Telemetry could be better but it is what it is. I have no desire to run 11 in its current state; I hate the Start menu and the changes to both the taskbar and the right click menu. All of the above needs to be fixed before I consider installing. I would imagine 12 will have none of those issues.

      Good version, bad version, good version all over again. Typical MS.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2465672

      I don’t use Windows (any version) the way Microsoft wants us to use Windows. I have my own concepts of how to improve efficiency and performance that I’ve been working on for more than two decades. I started using multiple partitions for file types/functions long before Microsoft came up with “Special Folders” and “Quick Access”. Those were a nuisance, so I got rid of them through the registry.

      With Windows 8, I got rid of the folders, trashed the UI and installed StartIsBack.  On every upgrade since, the first thing I do is run my reg files to rip out those aggravating folders, then re-install the latest version of StartIsBack.

      I started running Windows 11 as soon as it was RTM. I ripped out the folders and installed StartAllBack (the StartIsBack upgrade for Windows 11). It quickly became my go to OS, and I recently decided that since I don’t use the Windows 10 side of my dual boot daily driver, and I had in the meantime upgraded my hardware, I upgraded that side to Windows 11, ripped out the folders, and installed StartAllBack.

      I have no issues with Windows 11, I don’t pause any updates except for drivers, which I have barred using Group Policy. I keep reading the complaints about the Windows 11 UI, but that’s a 5 bucks fix (on a free OS) that takes care of the UI, Menu, Taskbar, the right-click context menu and File Explorer all in one lick. Will I install the next upgrade? Sure. In my experience, Windows 11 (after getting rid of the UI) is a minor upgrade for Windows 10.

      Other than Windows 8 (which didn’t seem to do much of anything under the hood except for screw up the boot menu, which I also got rid of), each new version of Windows brings some incremental improvements in performance and efficiency.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
      We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do. We don't all have to do the same things.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2465692

      Windows is a mature product. With any mature product, once it reaches its full market penetration, its owner must do something to further juice or even just sustain its market penetration. Hence, at minimum a packaging refresh (“New! Improved!” or other window dressing). Or a minimal tech refresh.

      Sometimes a rewrite from scratch is warranted over maintenance of something that, with age, has become littered with patches and hacks, e.g., Print Spooler.

      As long as MS fixes important stuff and doesn’t screw up the UI too badly, I’ll take a forced upgrade.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2465808

        Too many line of business applications depend on that backwards compatibility.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

    • #2465700

      Sometimes a rewrite from scratch is warranted over maintenance of something that, with age, has become littered with patches and hacks, e.g., Print Spooler.

      Microsoft is unable to rewrite Windows OS as it (and Enterprise) still relies on NT Kernel and the current programmers have no clue about most of Windows code, hacks, patches..put over the years (main reason why every single patch Tuesday breaks something).

      Microsoft can’t do Apple which switched 3 times CPUs (PowerPC > Intel > Apple Silicon ) and rewrote MacOS.

      • #2465711

        Microsoft is unable to rewrite Windows OS as it (and Enterprise) still relies on NT Kernel and the current programmers have no clue about most of Windows code, hacks, patches..put over the years (main reason why every single patch Tuesday breaks something).

        The source code is available to Microsoft’s programming engineers.  Windows versions are deployed on hundreds of millions of machines running all manner of hardware/software combinations and permutations.  It is impossible to test or even simulate the variations within the Windows user base and write patches to cover all possible contingencies, but really easy to complain about it.

        Microsoft can’t do Apple which switched 3 times CPUs (PowerPC > Intel > Apple Silicon ) and rewrote MacOS.

        Apple is monolithic, with a plethora of devotees.  Apple OS is run on Apple hardware.  The combinations are limited both in number and in scope.  Not a real comparison in any meaningful sense.

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do. We don't all have to do the same things.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2465712

          Yup, apple caters ony for apple specific hardware whereas microsoft caters for a huge array of devices and CNC machinery. Source code is also available to large enterprises/ govt etc..that use microsoft OS software.

    • #2465710

      There will be plenty of fora, IT tech websites and tinkerers hoping for Windows 12 although wants and needs are two separate issues, distinguishing between the two is another issue by the beholder. Not for me, I simply don’t need it!
      However should there be a Windows 13, the superstitious will be avoiding that like a plague of bit rot.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2465785

      On the comparison of Windows with other operating systems, a better one than Windows with Apple’s macOS could be one between Windows with Linux, that usually also runs on someone else’s hardware and even on the same PC models as Windows.

      There are also versions of Linux that run on computers with CPUs other than those of Intel.

      Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

      MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
      Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
      macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

      • #2465816

        Had Digital and their Alpha-processors disappeared? Strangled in history?

        * Is this a fact: "foreignpolicy.com/2022/04/25/the-real-threat-to-social-media-is-europe", Really? * get out of the poisonous Metaverse *
    • #2465818

      Source code is also available to large enterprises/ govt etc..

      Source code is available with lacking/no documentation and no one understand what, why..it does.

      • #2465822

        Alex: “Source code is available with lacking/no documentation and no one understand what, why..it does.

        This “by the way” opinion in answer to Microfix’s #2465712 deserves some commentary, even if it’s not spot on whether there is a need for Windows 12 or otherwise:

        Alex’s comment might apply to MS software source code available at certain institutions, but as a general opinion is one whose validity depends on the where, who, what and what for. Where I have worked and still do, for example, there are two generations of people in various positions that have, among other things, designed, developed, documented and helped maintain the core software and ancillary ones used for most of the important work done there. The code is documented in two ways: with manuals not always as up to date as one would like them to be, but also with ubiquitous brief comments and blocks of comments in the source code, the latter particularly at the beginning, explaining the purpose, inputs, outputs, structure, modules used, etc. and also the former, with explanations such as “the segment of code that follows does this” — that sort of thing. And new members learn to use the programs from older ones. This is not just at this NASA lab, but in labs and university institutes dedicated to long-term research projects. And beyond the software developed in-house there is also available on line source code of programs and subroutines developed at other institutions and similarly documented that are useful enough to incorporate in the labs core and ancillary software. So there is collaborative development and there is also teaching of how to use the code given mainly by way of example. This way certainly is not perfect,  but it works.

        Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

        MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
        Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
        macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

      • #2465867

        Source code is available with lacking/no documentation and no one understand what, why..it does.

        Have you ever written code for Microsoft, @Alex5723?  Have you ever written code, @Alex5723?

        Every piece of code I’ve ever written has had copious amounts of documentation/comments within the source code itself.  That’s standard practice, pretty much.

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do. We don't all have to do the same things.

      • #2465869

        While I have not looked at it personally, I know people that have. There are comments and documentation. There is also 30 years of legacy products that Microsoft has to interact with.

        On the one hand we complain that Microsoft should pull a page out of Apple and throw out all of the legacy code.

        On the other hand we are still running Windows media Center. Windows Essential servers/Small Business Server code and various other platforms and want them to still be supported and still work.

        We really can’t have both at the same time.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

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        • #2466255

          Susan Bradley wrote: “On the one hand we complain that Microsoft should pull a page out of Apple and throw out all of the legacy code.

          In my own experience as a Mac and Apple products user, with the only exception of iTunes, I still have available from Apple and am still using the updated versions of applications, both from Apple and third parties, that I installed as far back as five years and six versions of macOS, ago, including in this count the latest one: “Monterey.”

          What has happened in a few cases I know about, is that some older applications that have been removed still had in them things, including software borrowed from somewhere else (for example, subroutines or libraries) that have made them become susceptible to malware that has either evolved, or appeared since they were first written and that the developers (if they are still around) have done nothing about. There also issues I believe, with applications bought from the Apple Store, but I do use few of those, so I am really in no position to comment about that.

          But, speaking for myself, I have not heard of, or seen any massive removals or inactivations of older applications.

          Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

          MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
          Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
          macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

      • #2465885

        How well program source code is documented can vary greatly within and between commercial organizations. It can even vary between one source file to another within the same subsystem, depending upon the author. Writing source code documentation often gets a low business priority, given the crush to add new features and fix bugs. Occasionally you have to run the source code through a debugger to understand what the code is doing before trying a modification. Some developers go through the motions of doing source file documentation headers with their name there but minimal descriptions. Definitely irritating when they have long since left the company.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2465926

      Have you ever written code for Microsoft, @Alex5723?  Have you ever written code, @Alex5723?

      Yes, starting in 1968 on IBM 1401. Developed hundreds of programs in machine code, assembly languages and other languages, developed online (Internet) real-time banking system…

    • #2465982

      No (to the original question). Good god, let me get through Win 11 first.

    • #2466126

      While I have not looked at it personally, I know people that have. There are comments and documentation. There is also 30 years of legacy products that Microsoft has to interact with.

      On the one hand we complain that Microsoft should pull a page out of Apple and throw out all of the legacy code.

      On the other hand we are still running Windows media Center. Windows Essential servers/Small Business Server code and various other platforms and want them to still be supported and still work.

      We really can’t have both at the same time.

      If Microsoft released a version of Windows with no backwards compatibility, I wouldn’t use it. It would be Windows RT all over again. Why use Windows and put up with all of its flaws if you don’t have the backing of a massive software library?

    • #2466188

      Why use Windows and put up with all of its flaws if you don’t have the backing of a massive software library?

      Apple did this 3 times and no software has been lost in the transition (Apple uses Rosetta emulator to run previous CPUs software).

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2466454

        The current macOS at a minimum can not run:

         

        Classic Mac Motorola code

        Classic Mac PowerPC code

        Mac OS X PowerPC 32/64 code

        Mac OS X Intel 32-bit code

         

        macOS Intel 64-bit code is looking very nervous.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2466474

          TotUE: Those examples are not of massive amounts, but of just some Mac software, with as much as three-decades old ones included, in which time a lot has changed in what kinds of things could be done with computers, regardless of manufacturer, and on how. For example Windows 3 becoming capable to address more than 640 KB of RAM, and also on the changes on how communications technology works, particularly in all that has to do with the Internet. There was a reason for many of us moving from Windows 98 to XP and then to 7 (as in my own case), etc. In which process some applications that run on the older operating systems were left by the wayside, such as, to a very large extent, DOS and the software that depended on it, and rightly so.

          Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

          MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
          Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
          macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2466574

      Rumors are not rumors. Dark web has a working beta release of Windows 12 now. Someone at MS has leak it month ago. I am surprise that you did not know about it.

       

      No, I do not want it. I look at it and it is TERRIBLE. Bring back Windows Xp. This was the last great OS MS made. Now all is trash made by lazy developers.

      • #2466594

        Windows 12 is a label given on social media to some possible changes in release strategies.  I think you need to get out of the dark web and into reality.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

    • #2466829

      I didn’t think we needed Windows 11 because a refresh of Windows 10 could have been done. But marketing wise people lose interest when they cannot see some tangible improvement and marketing a new version or name sells. Have you not been persuaded by new and improved, or re-formulated? Or re-designed.  Apple makes huge profits convincing you that iPhone 13 is leaps and bounds better than 12.  Is it really? Well Windows 11 isn’t better than Windows 10 in many ways and yet it’s got a higher number so it must be better, right?

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