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  • Edge isn’t dead, it’s just morphing

    Home Forums AskWoody blog Edge isn’t dead, it’s just morphing

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    This topic contains 27 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  Lori 3 days, 10 hours ago.

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    • #238783 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      The sky isn’t falling. Although I wish it would. Joe Belfiore just posted on the future of Edge: Over the next year or so, we’ll be making a technolog
      [See the full post at: Edge isn’t dead, it’s just morphing]

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #238796 Reply

      PKCano
      AskWoody MVP

      I hope it’s an add-on for the older versions of Windows. I hate to see them contaminate Win7/8.1 with it.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #238799 Reply

      Rawr
      AskWoody Lounger

      Basically copying other browsers that made the move as well such as Firefox albeit late. What’s so special about Chromium anyway? Is it just the standardization or ease of use or both? Now most noticeable browsers have no uniqueness engine wise.

      • #238859 Reply

        lurks about
        AskWoody Lounger

        Chromium is one of the most HTML5 compliant browser available. So any browser that is based on Chromium is automatically gains this compliance.

      • #238883 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        Basically copying other browsers that made the move as well such as Firefox albeit late. What’s so special about Chromium anyway? Is it just the standardization or ease of use or both?

        In terms of the engine, it’s free and it uses the more permissive open-source licenses (BSD for the Google bits), so that it can be incorporated in commercial closed-source products without the “attaches itself like a cancer” (paraphrasing Steve Ballmer) GPL license used by Firefox.  The GPL was written by Richard Stallman, who believes that closed source software is unethical, and the GPL reflects that, though probably not to the degree that the closed source people think.

        If Firefox had been licensed under BSD instead of GPL, would MS have used that instead, thus throwing a lifeline to the floundering project (while also injecting MS distrust)?  No way to tell.

        Now most noticeable browsers have no uniqueness engine wise.

        I am not sure what qualifies as a noticeable browser, but Firefox uses a completely different engine than Chromium.  It’s not supposed to look any different when rendering pages compared to any other standards-compliant browser, so the uniqueness of the engine is something you should ideally never notice unless you were looking at the source code.

        The UI is a completely different thing, though.  Mozilla’s obsession with copying Chrome extends far beyond the engine.  That’s got nothing to do with the qualities of the Chromium engine or of the Chrome browser, but with Mozilla’s lack of vision.

        When Mozilla was doing battle with the corporate giant in the IE6 days, they sought to distinguish themselves by making a better browser, innovating and improving where possible.  They introduced tabs (invented by Opera, I think), and the powerful XUL addon framework was already there from the Mozilla browser that was the predecessor of Firefox.  It was the only browser I know of to provide the drag and drop ability to customize the UI, and it was more standards compliant than IE6 by a big mRGIN.

        Now, Firefox “battles” the corporate giant by trying to eliminate any features it has that Chrome doesn’t, exactly opposite of the IE days.  The philosophy now seems to be that since Chrome dominates the market, it must mean that what people want is exactly what Chrome offers, so that must be the “correct” way for a browser to be.  Never mind that there already exists a product that is the Chromiest possible, no matter what Mozilla does.  Going after the people who are already the happiest with Chrome in a full frontal assault on the Google behemoth, forsaking users who specifically wanted the things Firefox had that Chrome did not, is incredibly foolish, IMO, but that’s been their only strategy for years.  Not surprisingly, their market share has been in freefall the whole time.

        Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.4 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

        5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #238804 Reply

      MikeFromMarkham
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m personally not a fan or user of Edge, but there’s some interesting stuff going on here.

      According to Mehedi Hassan at Thurrott.com, this will enable the company to release Edge for Windows 7, 8.1 and MacOS as well:

      https://www.thurrott.com/google/194556/microsoft-confirms-it-will-adopt-chromium-for-microsoft-edge

      Brad Sams says the same thing at Thurrott sister-site petri.com:

      https://www.petri.com/browser-reboot-microsofts-building-a-new-edge-for-windows-7810-and-macos

      Might there be a Linux version somewhere in Edge’s future too? After all, several Chromium-based browsers already work on Linux and Windows.

      • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  MikeFromMarkham. Reason: Fixed typos
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #238809 Reply

      abbodi86
      AskWoody MVP

      “Who uses Edge anyway?”

      didn’t know that this line hurts enough for Microsoft to make this drastic switch 😀

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #238825 Reply

      Mr. Natural
      AskWoody Lounger

      “Microsoft Edge will now be delivered and updated for all supported versions of Windows and on a more frequent cadence.”

      Just as we were beginning to think Microsoft would back off on their “update cadence”. Rejoice Windows 7 and 8 users! It sure sounds like Edge will be pushed to your computers sometime in the future.

      Remember long ago when Microsoft claimed that IE was an integral part of the OS itself and could not be removed? I’m curious how they are going to spin that now.

      6 users thanked author for this post.
      • #238849 Reply

        warrenrumak
        AskWoody Lounger

        Remember long ago when Microsoft claimed that IE was an integral part of the OS itself and could not be removed? I’m curious how they are going to spin that now.

        Well, there’s “Internet Explorer” (the GUI) and there’s MSHTML (the Engine).  You can remove IE nowadays, but MSHTML still is an integral part of the operating system and can’t be removed.  Less so now than it used to be in the Windows 7 days, but a whole bunch of things will break if you were to rip it all out — including a ton of third-party applications that use bits and pieces of the rendering engine.

        None of that has anything to do with Edge.

        When Microsoft forked the IE/MSHTML codebase back in 2014 to create Edge, they ripped out all the stuff that bound it to the core operating system, such as ActiveX, the “trust zones” stuff, and the dozens of fiddly settings that allowed web pages to hook into core OS services.

         

        3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #238940 Reply

        anonymous

        Even if it might sound so, it’s not going to happen due to API dependencies only available in Windows 10. Go figure yourself.

    • #238835 Reply

      jescott418
      AskWoody Lounger

      Will moving to chromium engine change anything for Microsoft in browser market share? You have plenty of chromium based browsers out there already. Mozilla completely reworked its engine and browser Firefox to no avail in market share improvement. Opera changed to chromium engine, with no help improving market share. I think people use Chrome specifically for Google integration on their devices and even if Microsoft offers something similar. Who’s going to bother when Chrome if familiar and just works for those users. I just do not see this helping Microsoft other then Edge is not great technically and Microsoft needs to do something to improve that.

      • #238836 Reply

        Mr. Natural
        AskWoody Lounger

        This gives Microsoft an opportunity to screw up other operating systems instead of just Windows now. I’m sure all Linux users out there can’t wait to install Edge on their systems. 🙂

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #238861 Reply

          lurks about
          AskWoody Lounger

          Actually it means one less browser to test as a developer and worry about. As far as Linux users downloading Edge, many will not as it will probably have proprietary bits like Chrome does. Many will avoid non-FOSS applications if there is very good FOSS one available; Chromium instead of Chrome. But given the number of browsers available on Linux (I have 11 installed for testing, etc. on my main box) I doubt many would install it anyway.

        • #238961 Reply

          johnf
          AskWoody Lounger

          Actually, a lot of Linux users would install the new “Edge” if it’s offered. It’s a PIA to have to play with User Agent all the time when you want your browser to work on certain websites that have historically not been Linux friendly (not that it’s automatic, but at least it’s another thing to try).

      • #238845 Reply

        Microfix
        AskWoody MVP

        I bet macOS users are delighted at the prospect of having Edge also <snark>..hang on, if they have W10 on a VM they already have it anyway 😉

        | W8.1 Pro x64 | Linux x64 Hybrids | W7 Pro x64 O/L | XP Pro O/L
        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #238842 Reply

      BobT
      AskWoody Lounger

      Just as we were beginning to think Microsoft would back off on their “update cadence”. Rejoice Windows 7 and 8 users! It sure sounds like Edge will be pushed to your computers sometime in the future.

      lol it b***** well won’t be. Unlike W10 users, I actually have control over my machine.

      EDITED: Please respect the Lounge Rules [no swearing]

      • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  BobT.
      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #238848 Reply

      SteveTree
      AskWoody Lounger

      “Who uses Edge anyway?”  

      Probably a majority of Windows 10 users.

      Based on experience supporting a lot of users, many users are incapable of changing things that are woven into Windows (e.g. Edge can pop open when you search until you take steps to cripple it).  Other simply don’t care.  “Privacy? I’m boring, they’ll get nothing out of me”.

      Group A (but Telemetry disabled Tasks and Registry)
      Win 7 64 Pro desktop
      Win 10 32 Home portable

      • #238884 Reply

        MikeFromMarkham
        AskWoody Lounger

        Actually, most Windows 10 users are not using Edge at all, and that’s the primary reason why it’s been such a competitive failure.

        In fact, Ed Bott (Mr. MicroShill himself) posted this straight-forward look at Edge’s failure earlier today:

        https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-edge-what-went-wrong-whats-next

        4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #238891 Reply

          Ascaris
          AskWoody MVP

          Thanks for that link.  Interesting comment from Mr. Bott:

          The biggest selling point of the new browser for Microsoft will be privacy. In theory, they can build a browser that is 100 percent compatible with Chrome, without the need to sign in to Google services. In a world where both Facebook and Google are coming under increasing fire for their data-collection practices, that’s potentially a winning argument.

          How would that be different from Opera/Vivaldi/SlimJet/Chromium?/Brave/Comodo Dragon/Iridium, and lots more?

          A lot of people suspect that anything based on Chrome is going to have spying in it, especially Chromium itself, but open source means that anyone would be able to look in and see the code for that, and no one, to my knowledge, has ever found anything like that.  Chromium will check to see if the addons are up to date, and that will at least let Google know your IP address, which it would then be able to correlate with anything you do on a Google server for that session, so there’s that.  What good would that do if cookies will be cleared and the IP address will change in time, as it does with dynamic IP ISPs?  It would still present short strings of data that soon go dark as the IP address changes.

          I wonder if any of the Chromium spinoffs have a control for addon update tracking.

          Other than generally legit things like that, I haven’t seen any evidence that Chromium spies on anyone, just suspicion.

          Edit: Well, there’s this.  Interesting that it’s just the Debian version, though, or whether that bit of code is still in there.

          It’s not like Edge with Chromium would be the first Chromium browser without spying… and with it being the “new” Microsoft, I would not bet on it being “without spying.”  At best, I’d say it was “without Google spying.”

          Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.4 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

          • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  Ascaris.
          2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #238864 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Lounger

      It would be interesting to see the breakdown of browser usage across all Microsoft operating systems. The field strikes me as plenty crowded and competition fierce. What browser has market share?

      Group G{ot backup} Win7 · x64 · SP1 · i3-3220 · TestBeta
      • #239028 Reply

        anonymous

        Interface and rendering engine (and variants) market share belong to Google. WebP a new animation format intended to replace Graphic Interchange Format also Google. Microsoft is backing the the current monopoly. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #238888 Reply

      SteveTree
      AskWoody Lounger

      Actually, most Windows 10 users are not using Edge at all

      Thanks.  Either my users have been below par or I am incorrectly judging the  level of apathy.

      It will be interesting to see the result of Microsoft introducing Chromium with the OS. People dumping MS-Chrome for Google-Chrome may just be the wake-up call Microsoft needs.

      Group A (but Telemetry disabled Tasks and Registry)
      Win 7 64 Pro desktop
      Win 10 32 Home portable

    • #238890 Reply

      BobbyB
      AskWoody Lounger

      I am one of the miniscule minority of Edge users who gave M$’s beleaguered browser a chance over the years and welcome a change, sure its fast but its lacking many features that IE11 and Fire Fox has. At the same time another Chrome based Browser fills me with expectation and trepidation. Hopefully it’ll arrive with more features whilst retaining the speed of Edge, but the eternal Windoze sceptic in me is not holding my breath. Edge was a long time getting to where it is now 3 1/2 years and its just about competent. Anything new from M$ is nearly always fraught with teething troubles especially more so just lately. Are the Browser wars really that important? anecdotal evidence points to the fact that Advertising uptake by users of any given Browser is minimal and indeed Ads and Marketing opportunities are generally reviled by most users. So conversely a business case is negated by a Browser not having adequate Ad and Pop up Blocking right from the get go and ergo not what folks want.
      If M$ really want to make Money well why not save on the R&D and rip the bundled browser out of there and leave the user to select the Browser of choice and work hand in hand with say Chrome, Fire Fox, Opera etc to integrate features “seamlessly” with the underlying OS. Ever since the Netscape affair M$ seems want to be the Top Dog in the battle of the Browsers, so maybe time to relinquish the crown and get to work on the underlying stability issues of Win10, after all they should have a few free members of staff around after ditching Edge, rather than flogging a dead Horse trying to be king of the Hill with internet Browsing.

      • #238903 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Lounger

        I am one of the miniscule minority of Edge users who gave M$’s beleaguered browser a chance over the years and welcome a change, sure its fast but its lacking many features that IE11 and Fire Fox has.

        What features does Edge lack that IE11/Firefox have? I can’t think of any, let alone many.

        Cannon fodder Chump Daft glutton Idiot Sucker More intrepid Crazy/ignorant "Toxic drinker"

        • #239032 Reply

          ch100
          AskWoody MVP

          The fact that it is a UWP app makes it detested by those who are interested in the desktop functionality of Windows 10.
          If it becomes a proper Win32 application which seems to be the case if it is to work on Windows 7, then it may count.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #238894 Reply

      WildBill
      AskWoody Lounger

      What interests & puzzles me… is will Edge Actually be ported to Windows 7 & 8.1? Unless EOL for Win7 is going to be extended (currently more than 13 months left), I don’t see the reason to port Edge. Win8.1 has more than 4 years left, so porting Edge to it makes more sense. The main advantage of Edge is it has the Reading List feature that replaced the Reading List UWP app. I had the app & used it until Microsoft said it was no longer supported & recommended Edge’s feature… in Windows 10, of course. I uninstalled Reading List, but this subject made me curious. The Windows Microsoft Store app shows I own it, so I installed it & it works. Still has the message that it’s no longer supported. Any article in the MSN News, MSN Money & MSN Sports apps can be linked to the Reading List app. Bring up the Charms bar (surprise!), click on the Share charm, then click Reading List. The bad news & another reason I uninstalled Reading List is that once an article is removed (deleted?) from News, Money, or Sports by Microsoft (Bing?), it’s inaccessible by Reading List. Might leave the app installed for a while.

      Windows 8.1, 64-bit, now in Group B!
      Wild Bill Rides Again...

      • #239703 Reply

        Lori
        AskWoody Lounger

        Maybe Edge will become available to Windows 7 and 8.1. But, not till the final IE users have gone to Google or Firefox. Multiple sites, including Yahoo email (yes, I still use Yahoo!), are informing me that I have to move to Google Chrome or Firefox if I still want to use them. After January 31, 2019, Yahoo email says I can no longer access it using IE 11. (Yes, I still use IE 11.) Yahoo didn’t notify me know directly. Just an occasional, small pop-up in my email.

        I contacted Yahoo; and went back and forth with them, as they said I wasn’t using the latest IE on my Windows 8.1 laptop. Yahoo said MS was no longer supporting IE 11. I replied with links to MS showing it was still supported; and that Edge wasn’t available in Windows 8.1. Pinterest is pushing me to “upgrade” my browser. Awaiting answer from them if I can still use IE 11. Can’t stream shows from NBC or AMC with IE 11 over last several months. Feeling like I’m the last to know that IE 11 must be sun-setting early. I know, everyone here said, a long time ago, to ditch IE. My bad.

    • #238949 Reply

      anonymous

      If MS actually gets around to porting chromium based Edge to W7/8.1, I suppose it will be offered through windows update the same way Skype and Silverlight is offered – as an optional unchecked program. I can not see it coming down as a W7 feature buried in the monthly rollups. Surely they will not try to integrate it into W7 like IE is today (or even W8.1 for that matter).

      If the new Edge comes down through windows update as optional and checked – that will be a 9.5 on the tech Richter scale. Catastrophic damage all round.

      For those who stay on W7 right up to the eol deadline, it appears that MS is hoping to use 2019 to get users to try out the new and improved browser before they go to W10. Assimilation.

      IE updates are already a separate update package in the catalog which Group B are advised to apply. What happens with Edge for W7/8.1 on this front will come down to whether or not the program is standalone or integrated into the OS. I hope MS will not put IE and Edge updates in the same package if Edge becomes integrated into the OS.

      It seems to me that MS has gone full-on pretzel with this announcement.
      Edge is a dusky demon dry as a withered sedge.

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

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