Electric vehicles – Pros and Cons

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I’ve been seeing more of them and reading about them.  Even I have to admit that electric cars and trucks are getting better and may be the answer for some people.  Most of the success of EV’s will come from how good the batteries are and the range and safety they provide.

I was thinking about the usual things like how heating and air conditioning would affect the range of an EV’s batteries in cold and hot weather conditions.  Then I started thinking about battery construction itself.  How would a person like me who has always kept his cars for a relatively long time fare?  I’ve been told that as batteries get old, the individual cells can be replaced which won’t be such a financial drain and this sounds good.

Then I got to wondering how long the battery cells will continue to be produced for vehicles that are 15, 20, or more years old?  This may not even occur to the average person but it would matter a lot to me.  Unless batteries became standardized, the life of your high priced EV would be limited to whether you could find the proper batteries for it.  It’s just a thought.

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Of more immediate questions, perhaps one should ask, “Where are the charging stations?”

The Internet tells me there are about 15 in the city where I live. Two belong to the Entergy (electric power provider) and have limited hours of operation. The others mostly follow along the Interstate. And about half of them are Tesla only.

I think I’ll wait a while.

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Charging stations in a mostly rural area, smaller town are sparse. However, gas stations dot the landscape and line the highway.

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[Charlie]

Charging stations are a definite consideration if EV’s are going to become more popular and commonplace.  The demand for charging stations will depend on how many cars are sold and need them.  It the old chicken or the egg coming first question.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Charlie.

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Can the electric grid support all the people charging their vehicles? Doesn’t seem so from what I’ve read.

Also saw some reports that a Ford P/U couldn’t do 200 miles round-trip on a single charge. Well back in my younger days we’d do those trips quite often going to job sites and back.

Have you seen replacement costs of the batteries after a few years of use? Also hearing they need special wreckers to tow the vehicles!

I’m not sold!

Never Say Never

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Myst, Charlie

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The grid could definitely not support it if all the vehicles in use were electric. California made a law that by a certain date, all vehicles sold would have to be electric… just before asking people to stop charging them because they didn’t have enough power to go around.

Switzerland is also mulling a series of temporary restrictions that would be imposed in moments of marginal power availability, and one of those is to ban using EVs. We would need way more power generation and transport than we now have, and the same people who want us to move to EVs don’t want to build any new nuclear, natural gas, or coal power plants. The kind of power needed for EVs isn’t going to come from solar or wind power, as Switzerland is demonstrating. As Substack blogger Eugyppius wrote, you can have EVs or renewable power, but not both.

Think of how many gas stations there are out there. Then consider they support a fleet of vehicles that take about five minutes to fuel up. An electric vehicle takes much longer than this… if it takes 45 minutes, that would imply that in order to service an all-electric fleet, each charging station would need to be nine times the size of the corresponding gas station if people were to get all of their power from these stations. Many will have the ability to charge their EVs at home, but not all of them, and not on longer trips.

\I’ve been watching the videos from these truck-oriented channels that detail the electric truck experience, and if I had to actually haul something, an EV would not be my choice. If you take an electric pickup and use it to tow a trailer, the range drops precipitously, and seems to be much lower than the truck’s onboard range calculations (even when programmed with the specifics of the trailer in question) would indicate. It is also difficult to charge an EV with an attached trailer, as the total vehicle length is longer than the parking space where the charging takes place.

If you live in a place that has actual winters, that is also a concern, as cold batteries are quite inefficient, and even without the electric heat, the range will be something like half of what it would be if it were warmer.

The cost of the battery packs is a concern too. I read about one couple that bought a used Chevy EV for their daughter to drive, but then they got the quote on the battery replacement… which would be more than the value of the car. I keep my cars for a long time… I’ve had my current daily driver 22 years. I would not want to have to spend more than the car is worth for a new battery pack!

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California made a law that by a certain date, all vehicles sold would have to be electric…

That date is the year 2035 as of now. For proof, just Google the search term “mandatory ev use in California”, and you’ll be shown a pile of results, with the first result showing that as of 2035 all new light duty passenger vehicles sold in the state muse be either zero emissions vehicles or plug in electric hybrid vehicles.

I’m not too sure that 13 years is long enough for the utility system upgrades that @Ascacis mentions above to be completed to support all the additional charging stations that will be required.

AND there’s the other matter Ascaris mentioned of how are those cars going to get properly charged if there’s a shortage of electricity to charge them with, as Switzerland is now grappling with.

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Myst

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My wife and I have long been early adopters in this arena. My wife even transitioned to her dream job in the rooftop solar industry when her SAP-focused, Fortune 500 IT job soured on her in the 2000 and 2009 recessions. (That solar company went bankrupt when the previous US administration pulled the rug out from under the industry, so she’s now permanently retired from the working world.)

We have a 2011 Nissan Leaf. In 2011 it’s range topped out at about 85 miles (versus 200+ for many current EVs). 11 years later, we’re lucky to get 25 miles on a full charge. That’s okay for running around-town errands, but not much else.

We had no qualms buying it on the prospect that replacement battery packs would eventually become affordable by the time we would need to exercise that option. However, just last month we were quoted a price of over $7500 (parts plus labor) to change out the 11-yr old battery pack. That’s more than most 11-yr old cars are even worth, EV or gas.

It seems the major stumbling block keeping prices from falling is the lack of standardized form factors and the proprietary nature of each different EV.

So my advice is don’t believe the prognostications. Nothing’s going to get better until the industry actually reforms and settles on some standards. But I see no progress on that front. So I recommend only buying an EV if you can justify its price within its original battery lifetime.

And that’s before even talking about the problem with the lack of charging stations, most of which cater to proprietary plug designs. (We can’t use Tesla stations, for example.) And even if you find the right stations, it’s just not practical to have to wait 30-90 minutes (minimum) for a recharge when you can be in and out in 10 minutes with a pit stop for a gasoline car.

 

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I personally have not been in favor of the government pushing electric vehicles.  EV’s may be okay for local trips around one’s town where one charge would last two weeks or more.  Having a garage where a charging station could be installed would be a plus in a situation like that.  Having that charging station powered by solar on the roof would be even better.

The cost and availability of the replacement batteries or cells is the big factor that needs to be addressed.  I don’t think we are near were we need to be to be pushing EV’s on us right now.  The total overall costs of owning an EV should be made known to the general public.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Myst

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We used to have a few electric golf carts when I was in the SO and EMS for working festivals and events years back. They were great as far as no fumes, quiet and getting in and out the crowds but the maintenance was a nightmare! Constantly changing batteries, cleaning connections, etc, etc. Switched over to gasoline carts and while they weren’t great, they served our needs much better. One bad cell in a battery can take the whole bank of them out.

Never Say Never

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Myst

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Golf carts run on lead-acid batteries which do require a lot of recharging and maintenance.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Microfix

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ah yes, hydrometer at the ready together with ocassional low amperage full charging..pah! ‘Dead/acid’ batteries are what we used to call them for obvious reasons.

Keep IT Lean, Clean and Mean!

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I’m not totally against EVs, but I’ll be the last adopter.  Everyone else can suffer the growing pains in my place!

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Charlie

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I like it on the ‘healing edge’ not the ‘bleeding’ edge as well.

mmm wonder how they got the phrase ‘bleeding edge’???

🍻

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one word: Batteries!
Yes they may be a clean source and reduce emissions but beware, once expired, these batteries will be at ransomware costs to replace and your vehicle can’t do ANYTHING without them (cold weather affects battery lifetime too)
I much prefer the Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) or hybrid solutions over milk floats on steroids.

Keep IT Lean, Clean and Mean!

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Alex5723, Charlie

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The problem with hybrid or Plug-in Hybrid is that many don’t charge them when batteries are flat and continue using only petrol.

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Petrol FTW! 🙂
Using high octane 97RON petrol burns off cleaner, the problem lays in supermarket 95RON ‘cheap’ petrol that does not burn as clean, then there’s DIEsel..no thanks!

Keep IT Lean, Clean and Mean!

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@Alex5723 –

The problem with hybrid or Plug-in Hybrid is that many don’t charge them when batteries are flat and continue using only petrol.

The problem you cite is probably prevalent to only the plug in hybrid vehicles.

A great many non-plug-in hybrids use technology that recharges the batteries from the energy created using the car’s brakes! Most models/variants of the Toyota Prius have operated this way for nearly two decades. I believe one of the names for this system is mentioned by Microfix in the post you replied to: “Kinetic Energy Recovery System”.

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Microfix wrote:

Yes they may be a clean source and reduce emissions

…but they are manufactured using electricity made from coal / fuel harming the environment.

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A long time ago my father brought an electric motor home from his job. He said they were going to throw it out but he knew how to put new brushes in it.  Before fixing it he started it up while I was there and I smelled this weird smell. When I asked him what that smell was he said it was Ozone caused by the sparking brushes.

I can only hope the motors they use in cars don’t have brushes that wear out and have to be replaced. More than likely they will only replace the whole motor.  Another possible big maintenance expense.  Just one more thought.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Alex5723 wrote:

The problem with hybrid or Plug-in Hybrid is that many don’t charge them when batteries are flat and continue using only petrol.

Alex does bring up a potential problem.

Plug in hybrids rely on the owner/operator plugging them in to recharge the batteries that power the electric motor(s) used to operate the vehicle at the lowest speeds starting from a dead stop.

What if the owner/operator doesn’t plug the vehicle in (or for any one of a myriad of reasons can’t plug the vehicle in) and the batteries do go flat? Will the vehicle be able to be moved by starting and exclusively using the gasoline engine, or does the gasoline engine only kick in after the vehicle is above a certain speed threshold?

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Alex5723 wrote:

…but they are manufactured using electricity made from coal / fuel harming the environment.

An electric produces a 3rd of the CO2 of a petrol car, including manufacturing = less harm to the environment.

cheers, Paul

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Paul T wrote:

less harm to the environment.

..But killing children mining for cobalt.

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EV’s use lithium for lithium ion batteries.  I haven’t heard anything about cobalt being used.

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Although in 2018 most cobalt in batteries was used in a mobile device, a more recent application for cobalt is rechargeable batteries for electric cars. This industry has increased five-fold in its demand for cobalt, which makes it urgent to find new raw materials in more stable areas of the world. Demand is expected to continue or increase as the prevalence of electric vehicles increases. Exploration in 2016–2017 included the area around Cobalt, Ontario, an area where many silver mines ceased operation decades ago. Cobalt for electric vehicles increased 81% from the first half of 2018 to 7,200 tonnes in the first half of 2019, for a battery capacity of 46.3 GWh. The future of electric cars may depend on deep-sea mining, since cobalt is abundant in rocks on the seabed.

Since child and slave labor have been repeatedly reported in cobalt mining, primarily in the artisanal mines of DR Congo, technology companies seeking an ethical supply chain have faced shortages of this raw material …

Research is being conducted by the European Union on the possibility to eliminate cobalt requirements in lithium-ion battery production.

Cobalt — Batteries

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Charlie

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I was not aware of this!  This sets my opinion of EV’s even lower.

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Yet you are happy to have a mobile phone?

cheers, Paul

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wavy

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I only have a small flip type cell phone that I only use for convenience or emergency.  I use it very little so it stays turned off most of the time.  No, I wouldn’t exactly say I’m “happy” to own one.  Also, I doubt that my little flip phone uses cobalt, but I’ll check it out.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Well I have to admit, I learned something today.  They have been using cobalt in “Lithium Ion” batteries for cell phones, laptops, etc. for quite a while.  They have only more recently been using cobalt in EV’s.  Thank you Paul T for calling that to my attention.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Paul T

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Alex5723 wrote:

..But killing children mining for cobalt

Or killing even more through global warming…

cheers, Paul

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zat_so, wavy

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for a very low carbon footprint vehicle,
there’s always this that produces good environmental footprints..

Keep IT Lean, Clean and Mean!

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Very good.  It wouldn’t surprise me if this is what cars look like in California 20 or so years from now!

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Yabba Dabba Doo!

Never Say Never

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Microfix

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dg1261 wrote:

We had no qualms buying it on the prospect that replacement battery packs would eventually become affordable by the time we would need to exercise that option. However, just last month we were quoted a price of over $7500 (parts plus labor) to change out the 11-yr old battery pack. That’s more than most 11-yr old cars are even worth, EV or gas.

Until battery get to a point that they will last 50 years with 90% charge capacity. EV are going to be useless in my opinion. All batteries currently lose charge capacity very quickly. After 1 year, it is only 95%, After 2 years, it is 93%, after 3 years it is 86% , etc

After 10 years, it is down to 75% or less and ready for replacement.

 

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Charlie

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50 years is quite a lot, 20 years would be better, and your chances of finding the proper replacement battery for your car would be much better too.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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lost wrote:

After 10 years, it is down to 75% or less and ready for replacement.

I don’t see that as an issue. Having to replace the battery pack isn’t unreasonable. Having it cost more than the car’s value is.

lost wrote:

Until battery get to a point that they will last 50 years with 90% charge capacity. EV are going to be useless in my opinion.

That seems like an extraordinarily unreasonable position to me. How many 1972 cars are even still on the road today? And of those that are, how many have never had an engine rebuild?

We don’t expect our gasoline vehicles to last that long without major repairs, so why should we demand that of EVs?

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Just thought I’d bring this to your attention:

Damaged EV battery?  Your auto insurer may have to junk the whole car.

LONDON/DETROIT, March 20 (Reuters) – For many electric vehicles, there is no way to repair or assess even slightly damaged battery packs after accidents, forcing insurance companies to write off cars with few miles – leading to higher premiums and undercutting gains from going electric.

And now those battery packs are piling up in scrapyards in some countries, a previously unreported and expensive gap in what was supposed to be a “circular economy.”

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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