• ESU announcement coming?

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    #2608623

    @Will I think I won the bet.

    Now the question is… how much will this cost?

    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/faq/windows
    What options do I have for continuing to use versions of Windows 10 that reach End of Support on October 14, 2025?

    You may continue to use Windows 10 after support ends; however, it will no longer receive quality updates, new or updated features, security updates, or technical support. We recommend that customers upgrade or transition to a new Windows 11 PC for the best, most secure computing experience.

    If you are an individual consumer or an organization who elects to continue using Windows 10 after support ends on October 14, 2025, you will have the option of enrolling your PC in the paid Extended Security Updates (ESU) program. The ESU program enables PCs to continue to receive Critical and Important security updates (as defined by the Microsoft Security Response Center) through an annual subscription service after support ends. More details including pricing will be provided at a later date.

    The ESU program provides individual consumers and organizations of all sizes with the option to extend the use of Windows 10 PCs past the end of support date in a more secure manner.

    Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

    • This topic was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Susan Bradley.
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    • #2608628

      Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

    • #2608633

      So the question is, do we really need to enroll  in the Extended Security Updates (ESU) program if we keep Windows 10 after it reach its end of support on October 14, 2025?

      Or can we rely on third party security software such as Bitdefender Internet Security, G Data Internet Security, ESET Internet Security, AVG Internet Security, etc.

      • #2608636

        Security isn’t one thing, but layers. Especially in a business setting, you probably won’t be able to pass a regulatory mandate to have a patched system without the ESU.

        Mind you these regulatory mandates impact small businesses as much as big ones.

         

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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    • #2608648

      @Will I think I won the bet.

      Not so fast. The Plan for Windows 10 EOS link to Microsoft you provided only says “… Microsoft will offer Extended Security Updates.” And, of course, the title of the page mentions Microsoft’s “Plan.”

      You know, like the “plan” that no new features would be added to Windows 10.

      I’m very disappointed in you, Susan. This was a flagrant attempt to collect on a wager when the results of the race are completely unknown. I remain convinced that I’ll be sipping a Susan-provided latte in November 2025.

    • #2608651

      Or can we rely on third party security software such as Bitdefender Internet Security, G Data Internet Security, ESET Internet Security, AVG Internet Security, etc.

      I think you will be able to rely on 0Patch Pro.

      The software you detailed doesn’t patch Windows OS.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2608652

      Due to the sensitive nature of our business, it looks as if we will be transitioning to Windows 11 prior to end of Windows 10 support on October 14, 2025.

      We try to avoid software subscription services, such as Microsoft’s paid Extended Security Updates (ESU) program.  It is simply to time consuming to keep up with the paperwork.

      We will make the transition to Windows 11 during the second and third quarters of 2025.

      The transition will require the acceleration of the replacement cycle for some of our older computers that currently do not support Windows 11 and simply upgrading others to Windows 11.

      In anticipation of high demand for laptops and work stations near the end of Windows 10’s life we will start looking for good deals on hardware during 2024 and place the new units into service during the second and third quarters of 2025.

      The transition will not be easy for us.  As part of the transition we will have to make sure that all of our software is Windows 11 compatible.

      Is there any chance that Microsoft will reconfigure Windows 11 to make it compatible with more Windows 10 computers that are not “ready” for Windows 11 now?

      • #2608654

        I did Windows 7 ESU and the heavy lifting was done by the folks at Harbor computers, not me.  Ted is the one that had to jump through the hoops.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

      • #2608655

        “Is there any chance that Microsoft will reconfigure Windows 11 to make it compatible with more Windows 10 computers that are not “ready” for Windows 11 now?”

        Absolutely none.  The 11 hardware mandates are needed for securely connecting to cloud offerings.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

        • #2609727

          Absolutely none. The 11 hardware mandates are needed for securely connecting to cloud offerings.

          I would bet a lot of consumers would be willing to accept a version of Windows 11 that lacks the ability to use any Microsoft cloud services in exchange for being able to run it on older hardware.

          The mandate for 8th gen or newer on the Intel side isn’t needed for any security-related feature. Everything from Skylake (Intel 6th gen) through the first iteration of the 10th gen is all based on the same microarchitecture, with the same complement of security features. This “must be gen 8 plus” cutoff appears to be completely arbitrary on the Intel side.

          The requirement for Secure Boot should not be much of a problem for most people, as every PC shipped with Windows 8.0 (now 11 years old) on should have this.

          The requirement for DX 12 graphics capability isn’t needed for any kind of security, but it also should not be a problem for any newer (post Haswell, not sure about Haswell itself) Intel iGPU or any reasonably modern discrete GPU.

          That leaves the TPM. It can have some security benefit and some convenience benefit, certainly, though this can also be a way to tie a given computer in to having a Microsoft account (as attestation without a known-uncompromised third party is difficult), which a lot of people specifically do not want.

          I have my doubts, though, that this is Microsoft’s only interest in the TPM.

          If you look at the Wikipedia article on “Trusted computing,” (with all caveats about Wikipedia understood and agreed to, but it’s a pretty decent description in this case), you can see that one of the biggest things mentioned is DRM. “Trusted computing” sounds like a neat thing, but it doesn’t mean that you, as the end-user and owner of the hardware, can trust it to behave as you wish. It means that Microsoft and other software publishers can trust your computer to behave as they wish, whether or not you want it to.

          Some of Microsoft’s wishes for other people’s hardware can be in making sure that the boot process is not compromised, for example, which is a laudable goal, but the potential uses of a TPM don’t end there. If MS and its partners want to really get going with the brave new world of “everything is a subscription,” having a TPM on every machine ensures that any new software product that comes along can assume it is there, allowing them to push the envelope beyond what would be possible if only some of the machines had TPMs.

          I think that is the bit that motivates the TPM requirement more than anything else.

          A more customer-friendly way of doing things would be to mandate a TPM on all new PCs sold with Windows 11, the way the large majority of people obtain a new Windows version, while allowing existing PCs to be upgraded to Windows 11 without one. If MS is concerned about e-waste, this would be a great way to demonstrate it.

          Individuals or organizations that specifically want the TPM functionality would be (as they have been for the past decade or so) able to make use of it by procuring PCs that have that feature, while those who have older hardware whose lack of TPM has not been a problem would be able to continue on for a few more years. And in a few years, most of the older, pre-TPM PCs will have been replaced, and MS will have its wish.

          Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon
          XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, KDE Neon
          Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, KDE Neon (and Win 11)

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          • #2609795

            TPM has been around for 14 years, but we’re still waiting for DRM?

            • #2610034

              Until now, the presence of a TPM on any given PC could not be counted on, so the DRM that requires it wouldn’t be feasible. Now every PC running Windows 11 will have one (aside from those that use the hack, if MS doesn’t block it).

              Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon
              XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, KDE Neon
              Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, KDE Neon (and Win 11)

      • #2608818

        Just took a look at some of the computers that are in line to be replaced due their inability to support Windows 11.

        They include:

        • A Lenovo ThinkStation E20 (4222-67U), Intel Core i3 540(3.06GHz), 4GB DDR3, 500GB NVIDIA Quadro FX580 (512MB), Windows 7 Professional 64-bit, purchased for $1,029.99 in November 2010;
        • Another Lenovo ThinkStation E20, Windows 7 Professional 64-bit, purchased in June 2012;
        • A Lenovo ThinkPad Edge (0578-A99) Laptop Computer With 14″ LED-Backlit Screen & Intel Core™ i5-480M Processor with Turbo Boost Technology purchased during February 2011; and
        • A couple of HP Probook laptops.

        They have served us well and are due for retirement.

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    • #2608653

      Due to the sensitive nature of our business, it looks as if we will be transitioning to Windows 11 prior to end of Windows 10 support on October 14, 2025.

      The ESU is mainly intended for users, enterprises with non-compatible Windows 11 PC (about 50% of Windows 10 PCs) and can’t/are relucted to buy new PCs.

      2 years after the launch of Windows 11 it has only ~26% Windows OS share.

      Windows 11 share is too small (less than 1%) to appear in OS market share .
      https://www.statista.com/statistics/268237/global-market-share-held-by-operating-systems-since-2009/

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    • #2608657

      Is there any chance that Microsoft will reconfigure Windows 11 to make it compatible with more Windows 10 computers that are not “ready” for Windows 11 now?

      With the caveat that this is my opinion, I say no. Microsoft is behind Apple when it comes to having a security enclave, which Microsoft cannot ignore. It’s the security aspect that convinces me.

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    • #2608659

      Is there any chance that Microsoft will reconfigure Windows 11 to make it compatible with more Windows 10 computers that are not “ready” for Windows 11 now?

      None. Not only that but Windows 12 will raise the bar and will require AI compatible PCs.

      https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/windows-12-will-be-launched-with-a-raft-of-ai-pcs-in-june-2024-according-to-taiwans-commercial-times

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    • #2608661

      With the Windows 11 mandate, I guess it is time to start recycling the Windows 7 computers that we have in storage in the back room.

      Goodbye old friends

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2608663

      I see this as a cynical cash grab, the forced update of old machines.  Microsoft makes a lot of money from licensing Windows on new machines.  I would rather switch to Linux than throw out a perfectly working computer.  I’m going to wait until 2025 and see if the esu is free or easy to get and if it’s a problem I will switch to Linux.  This might be the push people need to branch out desktops away from windows.  Most school kids are using chrome os anyway.  Another huge revenue stream for them are the android patents microsoft owns (they get a cut from every phone sold android and apple).  Microsoft are the worst of the tech monopolies either them or amazon.

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    • #2608672

      … the forced update of old machines.

      But as you point out, you have alternatives. Not only Linux, but Apple. And let me point out that Apple is worse than Microsoft with respect to upgrades. I’d still have my old Intel-based Mac Mini if Apple had not, in relatively short order, stopped providing Safari updates and then stopped providing macOS updates for that model.

      … see if the esu is free

      No chance of that. Of course, my bet is that it won’t exist at all.

    • #2608883

      They have served us well and are due for retirement.

      At least 10 years in service for all? That’s quite a service life. Was that with or without hardware upgrades?

      • #2608886

        The Lenovo ThinkStation E20s have had second (D) drives added when they were new and the laptops are running as delivered.

        However, we do take care of our systems. Dust removed twice a year and hardware diagnostic software run quarterly.  All systems are maintained in controlled clean environments – 70 degrees F plus/minus 5 degrees and 50% plus/minus 5% humidity.

        All workstations stand behind CyberPower UPS systems.

        All systems are backed every evening to the D drive and on Fridays to external drives.  Backup are done using Acronis (D & external drives) and File Explorer (to external drive).

        We buy quality equipment – all new computers are delivered with at least a three year manufacture warranty.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2611299

          One more thing.

          None of our computers are in direct contact with the floor.

          All under desk computers rest on 11 x 18 inch wheeled platforms.

          The platforms keep the computers 3 inches above the floor and help reduce exposure to dust as well as making it easier to pull the workstations out from under desks when they need to be worked on.

    • #2608891

      However, we do take care of our systems.

      If you were my client, I’d have all my other clients come over to see my role model.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2609014

        There is one other desktop in our operating inventory a SONY VGC-RB30 Desktop. It is configured to connect and control one of our (radio) communications receivers.  The VGC-RB30 serves two functions:

        • Radio frequency tuning and
        • Signal decription.

        SONY VGC-RB30 Desktop, Intel Pentium 4 Processor 530J, 512MB PC-3200 400MHz DDR, 200GB2 7200rpm Serial ATA Hard Drive, Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack 2, Purchased during November 2010

        The computer was delivered with the following software:

        • VAIO Zone with WinDVD,
        • Click to DVD – DVD Creation,
        • PictureGear Studio – Digital Photo,
        • DVgate Plus – Digital Video,
        • SonicStage 2.1 – Digital Music,
        • VAIO Media – Network File Sharing,
        • Corel WordPerfect – WordPerfect and Quattro Pro,
        • Intrit Quicken 2005 New User Edition,
        • Sonic RecordNow! 7- CD/DVD Data Writing,
        • InterVideo WinDVD,
        • Online Center – America Online 90 Day Trial – New Users Only,
        • Anti-Virus & Recovery Software – Norton Internet Security 90 Day Subscription – Norton AntiVirus, Norton Personal Firewall, Norton – Privacy Contol, Norton AntiSpam, and Norton Parental Control, and
        • VAIO Recovery Wizard;
    • #2608909

      I was reading through the comments on articles about this on ars technica and the verge and the people in there said they had devices bought two or three years ago that weren’t eligible for windows 11.  One person said a fairly new Microsoft Surface wasn’t eligible.  It seems like they are going to drive consumers to Linux and Apple to a lesser extent and I agree Apple has the same problem.  The whole idea of subscription based OS should be cause to revolt.

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    • #2608914

      … devices bought two or three years ago that weren’t eligible for windows 11

      If you’re up for talking to Bing Chat, ask this:

      “What is the average life span for a Windows PC?”

      We reported the June 24, 2021 announcement of Windows a few days later. Windows 10 EOL is October 14, 2025. That’s a span of just under four years, four months. Compare that to the answer Bing provides about PC life and you can conclude that a huge majority of Windows 10 PCs will have been replaced by that time.

      In short, those three-year-old PCs will be reaching EOL about the same time as Windows 10.

      I know dealing with the Win11 hardware requirement is hard for some. And we’re having fun poking about Win11 so we can complain. But we’re still on the same Windows schedule that has been around for some time:

      • Windows 7 – 2009
      • Windows 10 – 2015 (I think it’s safe to ignore Win8, don’t you?)
      • Windows 11 – 2021

      Yes, we do have that hardware bump in the road. But I still consider myself much better off with Windows 10 and 11 than I was with macOS for my mac Mini, which was pretty much a brick after four years.

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      • #2608954

        And what is the average life span for a consumer purchased PC?  My gut feeling is that most consumers don’t spend thousands on a system to discard it after several years.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2609017

        I just quit using my 2012 MacMini (Intel Ivy Bridge i7, 16GB RAM, 512GB HDD running 2 Parallels VMs) in the last 6 months. Admittedly, it was slower than my 202 M1 Mac Mini. But I was keeping the Win8.1 & Win10 VMs and apps up to date, even after the MacOS stopped getting updates. And it was still usable.

      • #2609023

        Then there is the issue of legacy software.

        We have a significant investment in older software that is not supported by operating systems other than Windows.

        I addition, we also have a significant investment in programing and databases developed to support our quantitative analysis that is also dependent on Windows software.

        Thus, moving away from the Windows operating system is not an option.

        We made it through Y2K so I guess we can make the transition to Windows 11.

        • #2609399

          We made it through Y2K so I guess we can make the transition to Windows 11.

          even though it will have to be a slow/gradual (not sudden or immediate) transition, Kathy

    • #2608962

      Nothing there indicates increaed minimum requirements next year.

      Just like nothing indicated there will be a Windows 12 in 6 months.

      https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-plans-big-2024-windows-release-with-heavy-on-ai-and-groundbreaking-features/

      ..Windows 11 will most likely receive one more “moment” update in the first half of 2024 before Microsoft releases “Hudson Valley” somewhere in September or October. “Hudson Valley” will be based on the Germanium platform, and the first computers powered by it and ARM processors should hit store shelves in June 2024. Germanium will bring multiple improvements and platform enhancements that will benefit computers with ARM processors, such as the recently announced Qualcomm Snapdragon G Elite…

    • #2608987

      My gut feeling is that most consumers don’t spend thousands on a system to discard it after several years.

      I’d agree with that except that I don’t think most consumers are spending thousands on their PCs. My recent laptop purchase was a $450 refurb, although relatively new. For casual use, it would meet most consumers’ needs. And it happens to be powerful enough for me to use it for professional purposes.

      • #2609024

        See my Topic – Refurbished Computer – Never Again

        https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/refurbished-computer-never-again/

        We purchased two Joy Systems refurbished computers from BestBuy this spring:

        • A HP – ProBook 14″ Refurbished Laptop – Intel Core i5 – 8GB Memory – 480GB Solid State Drive – Black (Model:640 G2-31282 SKU:6297031) and
        • A HP – ProBook 14″ Refurbished Laptop – Intel Core i5 – 8GB Memory – 256GB Solid State Drive – Black (Model:640 G2-31211, SKU:6297006).

        Both laptops were defective and had to be returned to and replaced by Joy Systems. They were replaced with HP EliteBooks.

        Based upon the time/value of our:

        • Time spent setting up and working under the hoods of the two ProBooks,
        • Time delivering and receiving packages from FedEx, and
        • Our time spent setting up two replacement EliteBooks.

        We would have been better of purchasing two new $400 laptops from HP.

    • #2609018

      And it was still usable.

      Mine was probably still usable, too, and I considered putting a Linux build on it. But my main reason for having it in the first place was to test websites using Safari. When that no longer became possible, the machine became less useful to me. At about the same time, Web browsers became much more observant of W3C specs, so I was able to do all testing using a variety of browsers on my PC.

    • #2609655

      I was wondering why few latest SSU-19041.xxx updates include ExtendedSecurityUpdatesAI.dll (although it seems too early)

      since they are already obligated to support Windows 10 LTSC 2021 until 2032 (which share the same updates with 22H2), so why not offer those same updates as paid 😛

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2611329

      Windows 10 – 2015 (I think it’s safe to ignore Win8, don’t you?)

      Maybe Win8, but not Win81. I decommissioned it when it reached EOL, but once Win10 hits a wall, I might roll back to it. The functions I need don’t require a network connection.

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