One thing I’ve noticed lately when buying a new computer is that they EXPECT you to buy your own keyboard. The one that ships with a new desktop compu
[See the full post at: Finding a good keyboard]
Susan Bradley Patch Lady
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Finding a good keyboard
- This topic has 53 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 2 months ago.
AuthorViewing 40 reply threadsAuthor-
yes indeed a good keyboard is hard to find today. I went shopping for a laptop in Sept 2022 and all the keyboards are awful ( that I tried, costco, best buy…). .the Cheap Dell is awful ( had to buy Win 11 for work- testing software- it works but never goes on line except to see if MS update breaks things)….
I like my Lenovo Thinkpad E530, feel is good and stroke is excellent, Still it is not as good as a old mill (real typewriter ie IBM , old Royal or Underwood)….so I will keep my E530 running using Linux , I do have an E570 for a backup it is ok. IMHO the older laptops had decent keyboards….in todays’ throw away/planned obsolescence society nothing is designed to last or be decent. welcome to terrible temporary stuff as most folks will accept second rate.
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IBM Model M. I have about dozen or so of them from back in mid 90’s when I worked at IBM. When we sent old machines to be scraped or resold we always kept the great keyboards. I got to take a few home over the years…. I just had to ask.
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From the PC purchases that I have either made myself or helped others with in recent years, I’ve noticed that computers billed as business-oriented come with much better keyboards, while computers aimed at the “home” or “gaming” markets are of much lower quality. Especially the “gaming” ones: The PC vendors probably figure that gamers will typically want to select their own specialty keyboards anyway.
The keyboards I’ve seen bundled with business PCs lately tend to be full-sized and sturdier, with the keys offering a satisfying amount of both tactile and audible feedback.
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My daily driver is a desktop and I prefer a touch pad keyboard. I also use a lot of keyboard shortcuts. This keyboard has a touchpad and lots of single keys as handy shortcuts-to-the-keyboard shortcuts. I have two of these.
https://www.adesso.com/product/adesso-tru-form-450-ergonomic-touchpad-keyboard/
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My current keyboards are first a wired Ducky DK2108SZ with solid blue light illuminated keys to match the case illumination. It is the key characters only lighting and not backlit between the keys. IIRC, the WASD keys “might” be mechanical.
The other one on a Linux desktop build is a wired HyperX mechanical gaming board with red lighting of the key characters to match the case lighting. It too is a solid red, no pulses or wave effects that make me literally seasick. Both are traditional keys (NOT lozenge keys) that have a tactile feel and you can rest your fingers on them, although the Ducky is a bit better for that. Both also can have the lighting turned off and you still see the labels on the keys as a light gray. The HyperX also has USB 3.0 ports. I bought the illuminated keys due to eye issues, now resolved.
My backup, that was purchased pre-2011, and frankly just as good, except for no lighting, is an older wired Kensington “Keyboard for Life” that cost about $12-15 back circa 2008. It has the 2 row tall enter key which I like but that feature is rarely seen anymore. It is supposed to be spill proof, but I have not and do not intend to test it. They still sell them for under $20 with the lifetime gurantee. I have not experienced any lag with any of them.
All three of them are full keyboards with a number pad, and have various media keys which I rarely if ever use.
I also have a wired Gigabyte illuminated keyboard that was incompatible with my ASUS motherboard on the Linux PC. I would have returned it but did not want to spend the return postage.
I learned to type on an IBM key typewriter, and when I started work used a IBM Selectric (it had great key feel). The first computers I typed on were a Wang system and we had a standalone Wang mini with a Winchester drive that was so slow you could be typing and the monitor would always be at least 2 sentences behind.
I think the reason I do not really enjoy my laptops are the lozenge keys, although the Lenovo will tolerate resting.
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I have a FUNC keyboard that is no longer available to the best of my knowledge. (It was an early version of a gamer’s keyboard.)
I like a keyboard with keys that have some resistance (a bit of click). Yes, the original IBM PC keyboard was exactly how I wanted a keyboard to respond, having come from many years in a mechanical typewriter environment. The correct descriptive word for the keyboards shipped with new computers is… well, I don’t want to be that impolite!
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I am not a touch typist. I hate black keyboards. Even though my eyesight is excellent since cataract and eyelid surgery, I have always preferred beige or white colored keyboards. Every time a friend I helped was e-cycling an old computer, if the keyboard was light colored, I grabbed it. I’m using a Dell Quiet Key. I have a spare Dell QuietKey, a light colored Gateway, a yellow EZ Eyes keyboard and an IBM keyboard stored.
Even the bluetooth laptop size keyboard I bought for my android devices is white.
Got coffee?
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daskeyboard pro
How noisy is it?
My go-to is still the hardwired Logitech K120: the layout, the tactile feel/feedback, the durability, and the lack of lag (vs. wireless). I even take one on the road during consulting gigs so I can type at maximum speed on my laptop. To ensure that I have have at least two on-hand (for three PCs plus travel), I usually buy one whenever Office Depot or Amazon puts them on sale.
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The Northgate OmniKey. Now THAT was a keyboard! To be frank, I haven’t really been happy with ANY keyboard since some blankety-blank decided to move the CTRL key away from its position to the left of the “A” key, “where God intended it” as Jerry Pournelle used to say.
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That’s my biggest gripe about modern keyboards, is the location of the mostly-useless CapsLock key.
Years ago, I had a Northgate, and I really liked its ability to swap CapsLock and Ctrl. To me, the problem with the older keyboards like the OmniGate and the IBM M is that they don’t support a Windows Logo key, and I’ve become pretty dependent on that. Enough that I passed on an opportunity to pick up an old OmniGate. Plus that the OmniGate still had the old original IBM PC connector that doesn’t fit into my current equipment.
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I still use my old HP wired keyboard and buy new stickum letters as the print deteriorates.
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We have found Nuance’s Dragon Professional v15 to be a good alternative to using a keyboard. I use it to dictate Word documents, fill-in Excel spreadsheets, compose email, search the Web, enter text directly into AskWoody replies, etc.
Dragon Professional is impressive because it learns over time. I have been building my Dragon profile over the last 15 years.
My Dragon profile has captured the nuances of my:
- Computer microphone interface;
- Vocabulary – including technical terms, proper nouns, and jargon; and
- Patterns of speech.
Dragon takes advantage of “Deep Learning” technology to maximize accuracy.
In fact, only yesterday, I copied all of my AskWoody posts from the last year and pasted them into a Word document. Then I had Dragon “learn” from the document.
Think about it. My reply to this topic was completed using Dragon Professional – with no help from a keyboard.
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Unicomp is the company that IBM spun off for their keyboards.
They may not be exact ‘M’ model, but pretty close.
Prices are not too high either.Based in Kentucky, so American assembled, with chips etc. being created overseas like many items these days.
I’m always surprised they are never mentioned in keyboard reviews.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/SFNT
One thing I can’t stand is the chic let keyboards that Apple introduced many years back, these have the old IBM buckle-click feel.
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Need suggestions on reliable connectors that “convert” the round 6(?) pin connectors to usb
There have been (at least) two types of round connectors in the past — the 5-pin DIN plug and the 6-pin PS/2 plug:
(Dime shown for size reference.)
If it’s a 20-yr old Dell, it’s almost certainly a PS/2 plug. For that, I’ve had very good results with this Monoprice PS/2 Keyboard/Mouse to USB Converter Adapter. This is my favorite adapter for using an external PS/2 keyboard with a laptop.
Though I use a wireless mouse, note this adapter has connectors for both a keyboard and a mouse. IMHE, I’ve had less satisfactory results with adapters that are keyboard-only or mouse-only, so I prefer this adapter and just leave the mouse connector empty.
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The connector is PS/2 (6-pin). I will order the connector you suggested as it seems to have many good reviews on Amazon. This keyboard was made in Thailand before everything moved to China so it is probably 20+ years old. I do not think it was ever used.
Thanks so much.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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dg1261,
I ordered the connection that you recommended from Amazon and have been using it since mid-February with no problems at all. Mouse is not connected as I use wireless mouse.
Thanks for your recommendation. A decent keyboard is saved from the trash.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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That Logitech keyboard looks great, but $225 is a lot of money to pay for a keyboard. If you want to go retro, get the original feel (and sound) of the old IBM PC/XT/AT keyboards, and save some cash, go to unicomp.com and look at their keyboards. I read a review of them several years back on one of the big computer magazine websites (PC Mag, I think), and they praised it to the heavens. I took a chance, bought one, and LOVED IT! Bought one immediately! It worked like a charm, built like a tank until something got spilled in it (grandkids…) and messed everything up beyond even MY abilities to fix. I’ll be buying another one shortly (depending on funds, I’m retired on fixed income). They run for just over $100 (the new Model M is the one I’m looking at, price is $104). No backlighting, but I have a desk lamp that takes care of that!
//Steve//
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A spill should be cleanable and repairable. Take it apart and give it a bath
🍻
Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.1 user thanked author for this post.
For twenty-five years and counting I have only used Microsoft Natural Keyboards like the one shown here on my home computers. The F and J keys have tactile bars for touch typing location sensing. Entirely mechanical magnet driven wire-loop sensors for the keys–no electric contact switches what-so-ever. Hands-down the best keyboard I have ever used. Easy to clean and keep clean!
HP Compaq 6000 Pro SFF PC / Windows 10 Pro / 22H2
Intel®Core™2 “Wolfdale” E8400 3.0 GHz / 8.00 GB1 user thanked author for this post.
IBM Model M keyboard is the best ever made. I have 3 I got off eBay. If you want a slightly modernized version, a company called Unicomp makes them new, they bought the tooling from Lexmark who bought it from IBM, and they are a pretty true reproduction of the original.
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In Steve Gibson’s forums, there have been some recent discussions on keyboards, and I find it interesting that there are a few that still prefer function keys on the left side of the keyboard. I had forgotten about those. Gibson also prefers ESC next to the numeric 1 (and above the TAB).
I know that it’s possible to reprogram things to do preferred layouts, but that’s not something I really want to do, because I share my keyboard through a KVM switch, and where I have 2 Windows machines, as well as a Mac and a Linux desktop, and I want the same layout regardless of which computer that I’m using.
From further up in the discussion, I agree that keyboards designed for home use are the worst, as they’re the cheapest you can get. I disagree on gamer keyboards. It’s true that some are junk, but there are some very good gamer keyboards out there, as well.
In the course of this discussion, I have not yet seen mention of Cherry switches. There are a variety out there, to allow for different need and preference. One with the right switches can really make a difference. See https://www.cherrymx.de/en/cherry-mx.html and https://switchandclick.com/cherry-mx-guide/ Another good source of info (and links to specific keyboards) is https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/
Personally, I’m using a Logitech G keyboard with Cherry MX Brown. It’s perhaps not as clicky as I would like, but I’ve found that the depth of travel enough to make it comfortable enough.
Ultimately, if you’re particular about the keyboard that you want, then you probably need to be prepared to pay money for that, and I’m going to suggest that $75 is is a baseline entry price for a new keyboard, and where ones with specialized switches (Cherry or otherwise) that aren’t mass-produced (or available off the shelf consumer electronics stores) may run well above $100, especially depending on layouts.
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I agree…the Cherry brown switches are outstanding. That’s what I ordered for my dasKeyboard keyboard. The feel, throw, and lack of hugely loud clacking fits my needs perfectly with my desktop.
Laptops are another whole world. The current Lenovo Thinkpads have “better” keyboards that feel close to right and work well. My older laptop, a lenovo Yoga that comes with a stylus for the touch screen, also had a horrible cheap keyboard. I’m glad to be out of that one, because my computing world is focused on writing, not all the many other things that are possible.
Anyway, Cherry switches!
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I am still using the keyboard that came with my 10-year old Dell desktop.
For the most part, the shape of the keys and the layout are mostly like the Keychron Q6 you referenced but it has none of the special features that were touted in the ad at the link you gave.
For me, the touch and key-spacing are much to be preferred compared to the “chicklet” keyboard that came with my new (Acer) desktop.
Just saying,
Scott Mills
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This thread totally rings a bell here, since I came to essentialy the same conclusions back in late 2021, when I was looking to replace an aging (anche cheap) membrane keyboard with something better. There is a wide range of mechanical gaming keyboards that are actually perfectly suited for non-gaming activities and the most difficult thing for me was to actually find one without RGB lights (which I don’t like) and looks that be acceptable in an office.
In the end I picked a Logitech G413 in the black variant with red back lighting. Its looks are, shall we say, “mundane” compared to your average gaming keyboard, but that means it will not look odd or out of place in an office environment. Frankly, I would have preferred no back lighting at all, but I have been using this keyboard for more than a year now and admittedly its red backlighting is unobtrusive once you get used to it. Besides, it is possible to reduce or switch off the light entirely and that without installing any additional piece of software (albeit without software the keyboard does not save this setting once the computer is turned off).
Honestly I thought all the talk about mechanical keyboards allowing for faster typing was purely for the sake of advertisement, but I was surprised to realize I’m actually typing faster with this keyboard. It did not occur me immediately, at least not until I was back working from the office a few days every week, where we are issued with regular membrane keyboards. A quick typing test with the office keyboard and the G413 at home showed the mechanical keyboard really allow me to type faster.
As far as my specific Logitech keyboard is concerned (G413), the only – not necessarily minor – drawback is that after around 1 year of use some keycaps are “peeling” and the keycap for the “A” key in particular now looks mostly transparent. Logitech keyboards use their own type of switches (so-called “Romer-G” switches), so finding good replacement keycaps is not the simplest of things: there seems to be few providers of keycaps compatible with the Romer-G switches, as opposed to e.g. the more widely used Cherry switches mounted on mechanical keyboards from many other manufacturers, and those making quality keycaps rather than cheap stuff that will peel off faster than the originals seem to be even fewer.
Still, I don’t think that I will go back to a membrane keyboard if I need to replace my G413. On the other hand, I will likely pay more attention to the material the keycaps are made of for my next keyboard and pick something more durable.
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I’ve just discovered this thread, and surprised no one mentioned Matias. I use a Matias Pro 4, and OK their keyboards are not cheap, but I can see mine lasting 20+ years, no problem.
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Here’s a thread I started on this very topic:
https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/where-to-buy-an-original-ibm-model-m-clicky-keyboard/
I just found out that Clicky Keyboards, the company that refurbs and sells IBM Model M keyboards, has gone way up on the price. Expect to pay almost US$300 for a refurbished IBM Model M keyboard if you buy it from them.
I have two Model M keyboards that I retrieved literally from the trash at a company I used to work at. They were still shrink-wrapped, never used, and they were about to be thrown out. I volunteered to “take them to the trash”.
Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 8.1 running in a VM2 users thanked author for this post.
I don’t know how I missed this thread.
Reading all the enthusiasm for mechanical “clicky” keyboards, I bought a restored Northgate Omnikey a few years ago. If I had not previously committed to something else, I might have made it my standard. As a one-time musician, I found the audible feedback very useful. I was faster and more accurate, for I could hear missed keystrokes and typos. I sold the Omnikey with some regret.
I still use the keyboard I started out with thirty years ago, the Gateway AnyKey, manufactured 1991-1997 by Maxi-Switch in Mexico.
As the photo shows, the AnyKey is a so-called “battlecruiser” keyboard, with two rows of function keys on the left side. Windows 3.1 and a Gateway computer turbocharged my consulting practice starting in early 1993, and when I took a management job in late 1995, I married an AnyKey keyboard to the computer at the office. I knew I was in trouble the first time an employee asked me to use her computer momentarily–I couldn’t get used to the smaller keyboard or the layout.
The AnyKey has certain objective advantages. As the name suggests, it is completely hardware-programmable, including macros. My programming has been limited to killing the Caps Lock key and some other minor changes. The other big factor for me is touch. The AnyKey has better action than the typical mushy rubber-dome keyboard, but not as “clicky” as the IBM Model M, Northgate Omnikey, and other mechanical keyboards.
Thirty-year-old keyboards fail in several ways including capacitors drying out and/or swelling, printed circuits breaking, and the consequences of hard falls and other abuse. The action may go mushy from hard use or exposure to dirt. The EEPROM memory sometimes goes bad. I had one newly-purchased AnyKey that had the best touch of any that I had owned, but which malfunctioned. I saved it by swapping the EEPROM memory board with one from a parts unit.
After that, I decided to keep one AnyKey sub-model, the 211, manufactured during 1991 and 1992, and sell the 212’s in my little collection. I have found the 211’s and 212’s more likely to have crisp action than models manufactured from 1994 onward.
If a nice clean model 211 popped up for sale during the last ten years or so, I bought it. About half of those I purchased proved worth keeping, but in time I ended up with only A+ keyboards. Their number is limited by the need to rotate units to keep the electronics viable.
The AnyKey comes with either an AT or PS/2-style plug. Cheap adapters will connect AT to PS/2. My computers have PS/2 ports, but three computers ago I used the AnyKey with a consumer-grade HP that only had USB. Conversion from PS/2 to USB can be a little tricky. Here again, there are cheap adapters, which may or may not do the job. I found that I needed an “active” adapter. My experience, which matched what I read online, is that it may necessary to try a few adapters to find the one that works. An Adesso active adapter worked for me.
Susan’s point about gamers and good keyboards is well taken. I am not a gamer, but anyone who wants fast, don’t-have-to-think-about-it typing is looking for some of the same things. I have read many posts by gamers who value the programmability and quasi-clicky action of the Gateway AnyKey.
I offer no justification for continued use of the AnyKey keyboard other than the points made above, and sheer familiarity. Photographers like to say that you should come to know the camera so well that it “gets out of the way” of making great photographs. The same is true of the user interfaces for desktop computers.
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I forgot to add that an important consideration for me was the Gateway AnyKey’s oversize reversed-L Enter key. After being spoiled by it, I was totally unable to relate to a one-row height Enter key.
The Northgate Omnikey and Avant Stellar also had the larger Enter key.
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I love mechanical keyboards.
Here’s a few opinions based on my research on the subject and my personal experience. There might be something better out there, but it is a good start for someone who doesn’t want to go to the trouble of researching the subject and wants a great keyboard.
Those with Cherry MX brown keys have a great feel and are good for a mix of gaming and typing while being not too loud. They are a bit like Cherry MX blue but quiet.
I actually love the loud clicky sound of the Cherry MX blue keys, which is best for typing according to many. I would rate those as the most satisfying in terms of feel.
I just bought one keyboard with Cherry MX red keys. Those are linear, not bumpy, faster keys, apparently better for gaming, but more prone to errors while typing. They seem to be the best mix between speed and not accidentally triggering a key during gaming. There are other keys like black or silver, but none seemed to be actually worth it vs red. I wanted to try the red to see the different feel and see if I can actually type faster without making more errors. Some people do. I think I prefer the feel of the brown and blue, though, even if red might be faster for typing if you are good at avoiding errors. Maybe I just need to get used to the feel.
As for other brands of keys than Cherry, I didn’t research them because I did most of my research a while ago and what was good is still good, although there might be some better keys now. Durability is a more important factor for me and I know Cherry MX keys are durable. Some high performance keys might not be as durable.
N-key rollover means how many keys you can press at the same time. I indirectly learned what it was by playing World of Warcraft a long time ago and being unable to play properly because I had too many keys to press at the same time and a lot of keyboards are limited to registering not that many keys pressed at the same time. Full N-key rollover might be a desirable feature for you. Sometimes it might only be available on the PS/2 connector if the keyboard supports both PS/2 and only supports 6 keys on USB. Check carefully.
As for looks, I strongly prefer a very neutral, no frills, professional looking keyboard with no RGB lights and no gaming look. I don’t need programmable keys or media keys and I want 3 lights to know if numlock, caps and scroll are activated, all of this at a reasonable price.
I got a Rosewill RK-9000 v2 in the past the fit that bill. It was a great price for a good quality keyboard with full n-key rollover on PS/2, although the caps are ABS and not PBT. ABS keycaps can become shiny and get erased faster than the double shot PBT keys, which are textured and more durable. My keycaps are shiny in many places, but I still can see all the letters very well. Unfortunately, Rosewill now seem to only make more gamer looks keyboards, although maybe the RGB can be turned off.
My last purchase is the new Filco Majestouch 3 which has PBT keys, full N-key rollover on USB, wired (I didn’t take the bluetooth version). It is an upgrade to the Rosewill at a reasonable price and fits all my criterias above.
Those two keyboards are full-size keyboards. Many people now and ergonomics specialists will say to get a smaller keyboard (tenkeyless) so your mouse is closer to you and it strains your wrist less because it stays straighter to your body. I am of the school of thought that you should avoid using your mouse as much as possible while working (learn those keyboard shortcuts, you will work so much faster) and I use the numpad a lot, so my choices of keyboard are full-size ones. If you game a lot or use your mouse a lot, you might be better served with a tenkeyless keyboard.
While we are on the subject of keyboard, I might add a comment about mouses. I researched mouses after being mad spending money on gaming mouses for first person shooters that stopped working after 6 months because they double-click when you click once. I found out most recommended gaming mouses have “performance” switches that don’t last and start double-clicking even if they brag about a high number of clicks. So I bought inexpensive Steelseries Rival 3 and 5 for gaming that doesn’t have these keys and they still work perfect after more than 2 years.
Last, I only buy wired products. They cost less and they, at least when I researched a while ago, offered better performance for time-sensitive gaming. You might have good reasons to avoid wires so the models I suggested here might not be for you, but I hope it gives you a better idea what to get. The Filco has a bluetooth version.
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One thing I’ve not seen mentioned here is after you have found the perfect keyboard, how do you clean it?
My solution is NOT RECOMMENDED for anyone else to use: I run it through the dishwasher! You might think twice about doing this with your high-end model, but I’ve used it on a wide variety of keyboards, and I don’t mean the crappy ones that used to be sold with a desktop.
What I do (and not what you should do), is remove batteries and anything else removable (e.g. cords), place it on the top rack, keys facing down. I have not resorted to removing the keycaps, but I would consider that if I had much intra-keycap detritus. I load up with dishes and the other usual dishwasher items, and wash away. After the dry cycle, I am looking at a keyboard as clean as when I bought it. It still has water inside, so I stand it on a corner, preferably in a window with sun exposure, back facing the sun with a towel underneath, and wait a few days for it to drain and dry completely. Of course, this means I need to have a spare keyboard to use while I wait.
This method has never failed me, starting with lovely old Model M keyboards.
As I do not recommend any one else clean their keyboard this way, I don’t have to ask you to keep an open mind and be gentle when responding. On the other hand, comments on how crazy I am are most welcome.
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I have been using Das keyboards for several years. I have (2) Das Keyboard 4 Professional keyboards at work with the Cherry MX Blue (“clicky” keys). I recently bought a Das Keyboard 6 Professional that has illuminated keys. These keyboards feel like the old IBM Selectric Typewriters from the seventies.
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If you are really fastidious in your requirements for what constitutes a good keyboard, you will know that they are all pretty much CRAP in recent years, and that there is no adequate substitute for the Real McCoy. Avant Stellar was the (sadly discontinued) successor to the NorthGate OmniKey design, and for certain demanding preferences arguably the best there ever was. That is why a used specimen in very good condition can command $400. or more on eBay. I got super lucky in finding an unopened box of one for sale, from Hawaii of all places. I pray that I never need to attempt to source another one !
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versize reversed-L Enter key
I miss those.
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