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  • Five days after declaring Win10 1703 ready for business, MS releases a big bunch of bug fixes — KB 4032188 takes us to build 15063.502

    Home Forums AskWoody blog Five days after declaring Win10 1703 ready for business, MS releases a big bunch of bug fixes — KB 4032188 takes us to build 15063.502

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      • #127676 Reply
        woody
        Da Boss

        There are dozens of bashed bugs in the re-released version of KB 4032188. Can we rely on Microsoft’s declaration that a specific version of Win10 is f
        [See the full post at: Five days after declaring Win10 1703 ready for business, MS releases a big bunch of bug fixes — KB 4032188 takes us to build 15063.502]

      • #127681 Reply
        John
        AskWoody Lounger

        Update ready to install on one of my PC’s. Got it overnight I guess, because yesterday it found nothing but a Defender update for definitions.

      • #127682 Reply
        PKCano
        Da Boss

        I got KB4032188 this morning (8/2) through Windows Update. I was sitting on Build 15063.483 – strangely, when WU searched it had KB4025342 as pending, but it downloaded KB4032188.
        The install time was exceptionally short for Win10 with no problems.

      • #127683 Reply
        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        It must be because the engineers at Microsoft are mandated by their management to keep to a frantic pace in all parts of development. I’d guess the workers are simply not being given the time to get all the details right and nobody’s checking their work before Ms. Sarkar presses the big red release button.

        We always had a saying for that: “Too much rush, too little speed”.

        Miscues and pulled-back patches have no doubt always been happening at some level; engineers are only human, and they’re dealing with insanely complex things. We’re just no longer insulated from that by testing and checking. As a result, it’s not surprising that Microsoft seems less professional – they are! People should expect products to be done and right before they get them, no matter how much Microsoft wants to change the culture to be otherwise. Lo and behold there are consequences of changing a process so that software comes from engineers’ desks to users’ systems in a heartbeat.

        -Noel

        10 users thanked author for this post.
        • #127686 Reply
          MrBrian
          AskWoody_MVP

          I wish more people – especially in management – would think the way you and I do.

          6 users thanked author for this post.
        • #127736 Reply
          AlexN
          AskWoody Lounger

          One of the gold standards of computer programming is testing.  You test it, and then you test it another way, and you repeat this process until every potential bork is eliminated.  When you have a fool-proof code, then you release your code into the wild.  The testing phase is, probably, more extensive and more complicated than the programming phase.

          Of course, this is too sophisticated for the folks in Redmond.

          Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
          A weatherman that can code

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #127742 Reply
            MrBrian
            AskWoody_MVP
            • #127766 Reply
              anonymous
              Guest

              Oh my, I was wondering how we’d get our halos… ’cause I’m dying with laughter. Satya will buying his halo.

            • #127794 Reply
              anonymous
              Guest

              “Agile software development”  lol

              That phrase just tells everybody the marketing boys are in charge of the hen house/asylum when one also looks at the end result of the calamity of Win10.

              Users will not stomach the endless stuff ups as well as being considered collateral damage by M$ to get the “improvements” down the shute at the cost of a stable O/s.

              Nostradamus predicts that one day M$ will wake up and look around and wonder just where all their past passionate rusted on users went.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #127805 Reply
              Noel Carboni
              AskWoody_MVP

              I believe in the development cycle and parallel development, testing, and roll-out. Trouble is, the cycle just needs to be a few years long, not 6 months!

              Hey, the US IRS doesn’t make people do taxes twice a year.

              I imagine that the high ups wanting to speed the Agile development process up to such a ridiculous pace think that it will make the Windows environment run more like an internal combustion engine rather than a cannon.

              They would be well to remember that the internal combustion engine still has discrete cycles for intake, compression, power stroke, and exhaust, and every one of them has a practical rev limit.

              There is no requirement by the Agile model to exclude in-house testing from their development cycle. It would just mean that end users would see the software a bit later. Now that we’ve already been through the shortening of that step to nothing, does anyone honestly think we’ve seen better software sooner?

              Microsoft just wants the world of non-business users to be its unpaid testing organization.

              It boils down to fitness for purpose, and I’m sorry but I think a home user’s data and computing environment should be every bit as safe and sound as a business user’s data.

              -Noel

              7 users thanked author for this post.
              • #127931 Reply
                ch100
                AskWoody_MVP

                Hey, the US IRS doesn’t make people do taxes twice a year.

                Don’t say it again.
                It may become the new “agile” tax return concept soon. 🙂

                1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #127860 Reply
              anonymous
              Guest

              “Agile software development” is Microspeak.

              Fragile software development is reality.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #127846 Reply
              anonymous
              Guest

              @MrBrian,

              Thanks for the link.

              Agile software development?

              M$ should just cut the bull-xxxx and admit that they want to force the corporate users to upgrade Win 10 Ent and buy/lease new Volume Licenses every 3 years, instead of every 10 years/EOL,
              and force consumers to upgrade Win 10 Home/Pro and buy new licensed computers every 4 years, instead of every 10 years/EOL = more profit$ for M$.

              And if they don’t like this, they can or may be able to choose to subscribe to Win 10.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #127834 Reply
            lurks about
            AskWoody Lounger

            Given the complexity of any sizable bit of code independent testing is mandatory if you want good code. A good group of testers will make good programmers look better and keep you out of a lot of trouble.

            2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #127854 Reply
          John
          AskWoody Lounger

          This is where I think companies make deadlines that are unrealistic and don’t change if things get bogged down. Its seems you end up starting out at a good pace early on, but then rush to tidy up the loose ends close to deadline. I sort of think Microsoft works this way now, with cleanup after a release a given and unfortunately the end user suffers through this every six months now. Whereas before with softpack releases you had much more time between major upgrades. Win 10 is a fix as you go model, and in my opinion doesn’t work with the vast amount of systems out there.

      • #127693 Reply
        johnf
        AskWoody Lounger

        I’m not sure why Microsoft hasn’t adopted the way Linux deals with releases.

        What MS is doing is the equivalent of Linux “rolling releases”. That’s all and good for those who want to live on the bleeding edge (the latest releases), but not so good for those users who need stable systems. For example, I wouldn’t want to use Fedora for a business, since they are bleeding edge, I’d rather use Debian or Ubuntu LTS  software, which I know is frozen at a certain release (with updates backported after they are tested).

        Ubuntu will stop supporting LTS versions after a certain period, but it’s usually several years, and the new LTS releases normally go through rigorous bug testing. There’s really no excuse for Microsoft not to properly test out these six month updates, if the user does not have the option of not accepting them.

        5 users thanked author for this post.
        • #127856 Reply
          John
          AskWoody Lounger

          Windows 10 has a long term support branch, but it’s not offered to most users. Yes, I agree that it would be nice as with some Linux releases to have a long term support release for those of us who prefer stability over a few new features every six months. Its unfortunate that to be able to really defer these major releases you need to be running Pro or enterprise to have the luxury of staying on a release. At least until the bugs are worked out.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #127874 Reply
          anonymous
          Guest

          @ johnf

          Also, you can stay on the bleeding edge of hardware technology when using Ubuntu LTS.

          Eg Ubuntu 16.04 LTS came with Linux kernel 4.4 when released in April 2016 with EOL in 2021. The Linux kernel has many device drivers included. The Intel Kabylake processor was released in Oct 2016 and requires kernel 4.10 or above. Users buying new Kabylake computers can install kernel 4.10 on Ubuntu 16.04 LTS, eg …
          https://askubuntu.com/questions/896497/how-can-i-upgrade-kernel-to-version-4-10-on-ubuntu-16-04

          Of course, the other more messy option is to stay on the Ubuntu Rolling Releases(released every 6 months) until Ubuntu 18.04 LTS in April 2018, eg Ubuntu 17.04 was released in April 2017, comes with kernel 4.10 and is only supported for 9 months – next up will be Ubuntu 17.10 which is due in Oct 2017. …
          https://itsfoss.com/ubuntu-17-04-release-features/

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #127904 Reply
            johnf
            AskWoody Lounger

            You do have that option with Ubuntu LTS, but I’m pretty sure you have to actively change settings (either add a repository, manually add kernels or experiment with ppa’s) to get to bleeding edge. Out of the iso LTS’s are usually very stable.

            Again, I’m just confused. I don’t know why Microsoft is ticking people (and OEM’s) off with new versions of Windows (I really think Windows 1607 and Windows 1703 should be renamed Windows 11 and Windows 12, since so much of the code was re-written.)

            IMO,  most people would be happy with the option of getting a  stable 1607 version that would be good for 4 years, with security updates, or “upgrading” (if they choose) to new versions of Windows every six months that would be compatible with the newest peripherals or games…even if they know that option two wasn’t always stable.

             

             

            2 users thanked author for this post.
            • #127928 Reply
              anonymous
              Guest

              @ johnf,

              Yes, agree. The great thing about Ubuntu is that ALL their users can stay on the very-stable and well-tested LTS edition for 5 years until EOL or opt for the concurrent not-very-stable Rolling Releases every 6 months in order to stay on the bleeding edge of technology.
              … Wish Win 10 was like that. Also, the option for full user control over updates and Telemetry & Data collection like pre-Win 10, ie Win XP/Vista/7/8.1.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #127721 Reply
        AlexEiffel
        AskWoody_MVP

        I think the explanation is simple. Microsoft’s management have a plan. They decided they will issue releases 2 times a year at a specific date, then they will issue the SAC seal of approval at another set date. Then, they think everybody will just follow: programmers, companies that will deploy it, etc. They think companies will beta test with some users on the SAC target version because they will want to make sure no big issue happens when SAC is released a few weeks after, all big bugs will be sent to third-party developers and corrected in time before SAC release…

        The only problem is the real world doesn’t conform to Microsoft’s view. This will not happen the way they see it. Not all companies will devote resources to test those SAC targeted builds, not all third-party software will adjust their thing to the latest version fast enough. Hey, those same software companies had beta for months in the previous Microsoft era and lots of them ended up with software not working with the out of the box release version when there was one every 3 years.

        So, already, MS probably decided 1703 was going to be SAC right now, ready or not, because this is the plan and if it is planned, it will be done, right? Software engineers rushed it, lots of things needed more polish, too bad, it is SAC and you will simply issue a big patch, nobody will notice and the plan will continue, unless it doesn’t work at all, right?

        And when things don’t work, what do you do? You just accelerate the plan. When it didn’t work to release as fast as they did early on, what did they do? Committed to more releases, faster… wow!

         

        7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #127758 Reply
        anonymous
        Guest

        Hi,

        I’ve got the setting “Select when feature updates are received” set at 90 days.

        I assume this will keep me on version 1607 for another 3 months now that 1703 is considered business ready?

        • #127782 Reply
          abbodi86
          AskWoody_MVP

          No, version 1703 is pushed for all, specially the deferred systems

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #127828 Reply
            anonymous
            Guest

            So then, what good does that “select when feature updates are received” setting do???
            [not the same anonymous who posed the previous question]

            • #127859 Reply
              MrBrian
              AskWoody_MVP

              The deferral period is from the time that 1703 was released months ago.

            • #128023 Reply
              teuhasn
              AskWoody Lounger

              What good it does is what it already did for you–block Win 10 Update from offering it to you–until now. At this point it will be offered to you the next time you check for updates. If you run wushowhide first, you can Hide 1703 and therefore block it for the time being. Eventually that won’t work either, when 1607 is no longer supported.

      • #127791 Reply
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        Everyone might want to have a good look at this post and the effect of some of the more “dubious” solutions proposed by various posters.
        https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2017/01/09/why-wsus-and-sccm-managed-clients-are-reaching-out-to-microsoft-online/

        Please have a look at the end:

        Ensure that the registry HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate doesn’t reflect any of these values.

        DeferFeatureUpdate
        DeferFeatureUpdatePeriodInDays
        DeferQualityUpdate
        DeferQualityUpdatePeriodInDays
        PauseFeatureUpdate
        PauseQualityUpdate
        DeferUpgrade
        ExcludeWUDriversInQualityUpdate

        Those who understand Windows as a system have already known this information based on gut feeling, but those who still believe that they can control Windows with a single “magic” setting, patch and whatever would gain most by reading and understanding what is posted here.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #127801 Reply
          wdburt1
          AskWoody Plus

          Unintelligible to the regular user, which I suppose is an admission of ignorance in your world, but in actuality is a failure to communicate.  Unless of course this is a forum only for those who are full time participants in the industry.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #127804 Reply
            ch100
            AskWoody_MVP

            In plain words, the message is for whatever product is in use, follow the manufacturer’s instructions… unless you know better. There are few of those though, but they exist. I can name only one member of this forum in that category. Few others understand well the manufacturer’s documentation and intentions, but don’t know better and I believe to be in this category.
            The alternative is to use a different product.
            Anything else is unproductive waste of time.

            • #127877 Reply
              AlexEiffel
              AskWoody_MVP

              I agree with you in theory. The problem is manufacturer’s instructions, in the form of group policies description, is incomplete or sometimes not even synchronized with the changes made by Microsoft. Thus, it is hard to understand what a specific setting do or how it can interact in an unexpected way with a specific configuration or context, even if you are are acting in good faith and are trying to respect what the manufacturer would recommend. And when a button says start the car or tune for the radio, you shouldn’t need a manual to know what it does if it is self-explanatory.

              The article you linked is for managed environments. A lot of people here are just trying to use some settings to defer updates some more, they are not affected by that issue. The fact the person says a lot of people are calling me regarding this says something about the deficiency in communicating clearly how the system works. Clearly might mean greying out some options and having a popup explanation when hovering the mouse on the option to explain why it can’t be used no more because you are in a managed environment. There are many ways to communicate clear instructions.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
              • #127933 Reply
                ch100
                AskWoody_MVP

                I think the post at the URL is a fantastic reference clarifying why conflicting Group Policies set in 2 different places do not work as intended.
                I was looking for this URL when I replied to you in a different thread to look for the description of the policies and why deferral may not work as expected.
                We might have liked to have a kind of safety switch builtin not allowing to do faulty configuration rather than obscure blog posts hard to find instead.
                Don’t people look for cheap or even free more than quality? How else can be explained the success of Microsoft vs Apple? Everything has a price to be paid, even the so called “free” and in this case it is in spending the time which otherwise would be delegated to others for a price or paying for consultants which are far more expensive than a product which “just works”. Good products are doing better in the market than very good products and here was the genius of Bill Gates who was at the right time in the right place in creating/rebranding MS-DOS and doing the same with Windows later. Does anyone remember the VMS Operating System?

                1 user thanked author for this post.
              • #128017 Reply
                AlexEiffel
                AskWoody_MVP

                Ok, I took the time to read the URL. I find the comments especially entertaining. It is hard to follow manufacturer’s instructions, when they don’t seem to even know them themselves! Some excerpts:

                “The WaaS website directly contradicts this, so can you give more information on how CBB machines should be tagged for SCCM?”

                “When you use Configuration Manager to manage Windows 10 servicing, you must first set the Select when Feature Updates are received policy on the clients that should be on the CBB servicing branch so that you can use CBB servicing plans from Configuration Manager. You can do this either manually or through Group Policy.”

                “you recommend not to use the defer updates policies when managing clients with WSUS/SCCM. But when checking the documentation “Manage Windows 10 updates using System Center Configuration Manager” under https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/waas-manage-updates-configuration-manager I get a step by step guide where the defer updates policies are enabled in order to use the SCCM servicing node together with current branch for business. (…) This also does not make sense as the installation sources for the update are downloaded to SCCM. But as soon as the client has one of the defer updates policy enabled to bring it to CBB, it does not use the already downloaded content. This is really confusing. And for now, I really have to say, that this is not usable in the real world.”

                “Great article, but I feel lost when you say “We also recommend that you do not use these new settings with WSUS/SCCM.” although it said here “https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sccm/osd/deploy-use/manage-windows-as-a-service” that one a the prerequisites to manage WaaS is “Specify the group policy setting, Defer Upgrades and Updates, to determine whether a computer is CB or CBB.”

                 

                And this one:

                “Setting “Defer feature updates” needs to be enabled to be able to set the client PC on Current Branch for Business. This means if we do enable this then the client PC will look for updates from Microsoft online in addition to SCCM/SUP (which we don’t want it to do). If we don’t enable it then a) all clients end up on Current Branch b) Windows 10 Servicing node in SCCM becomes useless as it will only show Current Branch computers and not a single Current Branch for Business c) Device collections which use a query to look up Current Branch for Business computers won’t work any more

                How can this be “by design”? Am I missing a beat here?”

                 

                2 users thanked author for this post.
              • #128039 Reply
                ch100
                AskWoody_MVP

                The wording is confusing and most people do not understand and are not supposed to understand unless they put the effort to do so.
                It is all working correctly if configured correctly as @MrBrian said in another post.
                The Feature Deferral options are not even worth discussing and those who do are wasting their time and it looks like they enjoy it.
                The updates should be controlled by the WU Group Policies and installation performed by either the official management tools (WSUS/SCCM) or by individual users using their chosen tool. The best home user tool is WUMT but there are few others.
                The other option is to use the built-in automatic updates and live with it like many tens of millions of people or choose a different product. It is as simple and I am convinced that there are many more readers here who never post and come for finding information, but are put off by those few regular posters who post too much non-sense and are serial complainers without contributing and would be banned from posting on many other forums.

              • #127934 Reply
                ch100
                AskWoody_MVP

                The article you linked is for managed environments. A lot of people here are just trying to use some settings to defer updates some more, they are not affected by that issue.

                The settings presented are relevant for a large number of people as when WU is configured in the policies by let’s say “Autodownload and notify for install” or any other configuration, then all the other policies have an unexpected effect. Even using wushowhide may interfere with the Group Policies meant to be used standalone, as so called WUfB. And even settings in the GUI may have the effect of policies, but this is something that needs a lot of testing. Sometimes it is useful to master the art of reading between the lines to get out of trouble.

                1 user thanked author for this post.
              • #127946 Reply
                anonymous
                Guest

                Yes!!!

                It was from Digital Computers (DEC). I was a user of the system and the O/s was stable and functional. Ran on the VAX 11/780 and 11/750 and others in the 80’s. DCL was a command language ahead of its time and was I suspect, lost by multiple Corporate takeover.

                Wombat.

          • #127812 Reply
            anonymous
            Guest

            For us Group A  non-tech users there’s plenty of info on this site we can use.  You just have to scroll past the stuff you don’t understand. In most case we are not into building or admin stuff so your probably not getting those updates or patches to begin with.

      • #127853 Reply
        John
        AskWoody Lounger

        Windows 10 will always be half baked because Microsoft changes the recipe every six months or so. Heck, do we even know what hardware will be supported six months from now??

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #127880 Reply
          anonymous
          Guest

          I asked that same question to my IT team last the week. The short answer, no. I think  it will be OK in the short term, but Microsoft’s philosophical shift has left the major hardware manufacturers gasping for the moment. There is a great deal of anger building at Microsoft and its CEO and board over this… The plan Microsoft had, was a path to the future. It was a difficult one, but doable. Not anymore. At every level this is a first class failure. For Microsoft, this has left their future in serious doubt. There are whispers  the CEO had no backup plan if this failed. The time frame to fix this is extremely short, the board would have to  put the CEO and replacement team in place and ready to go within three months.(giving software cycles, team turnover and replacement) That would be one tight window, but it can be done. Any later than that and your ‘window’ to adjust vanishes. What a mess.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #127881 Reply
            flackcatcher
            AskWoody Lounger

            Sorry, this last comment is mine. #127880

          • #127888 Reply
            Cybertooth
            AskWoody Plus

            It seems to me that part of the problem is that, with respect to Windows updates, Microsoft did both of two things when they should have done one OR the other, but not both: at the same time that they eliminated (or sharply downsized) the patch testing team, they took away customers’ freedom to decline/ignore patches. The result is that users are forced to accept low-quality updates.

            EITHER you dismantle the testing team but let users decide whether to install new updates; OR if you force users to take what you send them, then you keep the professional testers to make sure that what you’re putting out is of the highest quality possible. But the way they did it IMO doesn’t show a great deal of concern or interest in customers’ preferences.

             

            2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #127897 Reply
            anonymous
            Guest

            @ flakcatcher,

            But there are IT Admins who like to toe the M$ line, eg …

            In plain words, the message is for whatever product is in use, follow the manufacturer’s instructions… unless you know better.
            There are few of those though, but they exist. I can name only one member of this forum in that category. Few others understand well the manufacturer’s documentation and intentions, but don’t know better and I believe to be in this category.
            The alternative is to use a different product.
            Anything else is unproductive waste of time.

            • #127957 Reply
              flackcatcher
              AskWoody Lounger

              Do not lay this on ch100 or any system administrator.  The choice of any OS is based  on flexibility, scale, and above all cost.  These systems are expected to last at least a decade(with upgrades of course) and be the back bone of corporate communications. Say what you will about Microsoft, but they provided robust support for their customer no matter their size for years. Microsoft earned their respect and loyalty the hard way. Which makes Microsoft’s current decisions and practices so dismaying and shocking. If you ask me why, I can not explain it at all.

              2 users thanked author for this post.
              • #127960 Reply
                ch100
                AskWoody_MVP

                Change of business environment would explain it. The previous model is simply not cost effective for Microsoft any longer.

              • #127972 Reply
                anonymous
                Guest

                Then that leaves the “implementation” strategy of the new policy to be the cause of all the current backlash from users. Still lands at the top level of M$ executives feet.

                M$ cannot deny the immense reaction of cries of grief, from users who have been subjected to M$ Win10 O/s as it currently stands.

                Personally Win10 Home is an unmitigated disaster and they need to turn the ship around before it is too late, if that has not already been reached thru the loss of trust/expectations in M$.

              • #127973 Reply
                anonymous
                Guest

                Then that leaves the “implementation” strategy of the new policy to be the cause of all the current backlash from users. Still lands at the top level of M$ executives feet.

                M$ cannot deny the immense reaction of cries of grief, from users who have been subjected to M$ Win10 O/s as it currently stands.

              • #127985 Reply
                anonymous
                Guest

                The previous model is simply not cost effective for Microsoft any longer.

                Well, these pre-Win 10 news reports say otherwise, …
                https://www.theverge.com/2014/7/22/5925947/microsoft-q4-2014-financial-earnings

                http://www.anandtech.com/show/9187/microsoft-releases-fy-2015-q3-financial-results

                The likely thing that was simply not cost effective for M$ any longer was Lumia smartphones and Windows Phone 8, ie the acquisition of Nokia.

                1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #127940 Reply
          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody_MVP

          The way I see it, Microsoft created themselves a big potential problem with hardware support.

          Previoulsy, they would issue a Windows version, then just patch it for a long time. This would cover a good amount of hardware.

          However, few old machines would run the latest version of Windows because it would be too demanding in terms of hardware or too different or not worth an upgrade. So, Microsoft in effect had a much less big job of supporting many different hardware config. When people tried to use inadequate computer on the latest OS (the Vista fiasco), they had to abandon and wait to get a newer machine.

          Now with Win 10, in theory you need to support the machines longer if the user has to upgrade. I’m not buying the bs about the SUPPORTED life of the device. This will make some people way too mad and certainly not buy a new Windows computer if their computer stops being upgraded after 2 years or so. So, Microsoft will have a much larger diverse set of hardware to support on the last Windows ever. Good luck!

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #127945 Reply
            ch100
            AskWoody_MVP

            What is the issue?
            Software runs on the hardware on which it was sold forever.
            Anything else is a bonus and in some people’s imagination it is an obligation of the operating system vendor, you know, just because it was like this before and everything lasts forever of course.

            • #127954 Reply
              AlexEiffel
              AskWoody_MVP

              My post wasn’t very clear. I just meant that to not loose market, they might support a changing OS on a more diverse set of hardware, so it might be harder and more costly than the previous model of just parching what already worked on a certain hardware, because in practice, they can’t really tell users to throw away their computers after three years because the backlash will be too important.

              The way I see things, the only obligation would be for me the equivalent of a recall on a car, which is security patching or bugs squashing. I would be perfectly fine with an OS that offers no update but only the minimal maintenance so it is considered safe online. Let the apps handle the rest.

              2 users thanked author for this post.
            • #127977 Reply
              anonymous
              Guest

              Software runs on the hardware on which it was sold forever.

              This is no longer true with new OEM Win 10 computers that are being sold.

              Let’s say, a consumer bought a new OEM Win 10 RTM/Version 1507 computer in Aug 2015. Could the computer run on Win 10 RTM/Version 1507 forever or until EOL in 2025? The answer is no. To stay supported, the consumer has to upgrade, upgrade and upgrade, ie to Version 1511, Version 1607, Version 1703, the coming Version 1709 and so on. Each new Win 10 Version is supported for only 18 months.

              If the OEM stops supporting his/her 2015 computer in 2019 by purposely or planningly not providing device drivers for the new 2019-released Version of Win 10 (eg Version 1909), his/her computer will no longer be able to be upgraded to this new Version 1909 of Win 10 or any other newer Version = EOL in about 12 months’ time, ie in 2020, instead of 2025 or the usual previous 10 years of support or 10-year EOL.

              Anyone who agrees with the above M$-Win 10 new business tactics is anti-Consumer and anti-environment.

              2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #127981 Reply
            anonymous
            Guest

            @AlexEiffel,

            Yes, agree.

            In past practice, most Win XP-era(2001) computers could no longer run or be upgraded to the 2012-released Win 8 because of major advances in hardware technology = incompatible hardware. So in terms of Windows OS upgrades, it was about 10 years of device-life for computer hardware = could do 2 or 3 Windows Version upgrades, excluding the Service Packs.
            … But many of the Win XP-era computers could run Win XP for more than 10 years, eg today, about 6% of Windows computers are still running Win XP = millions.

            So, previously, 2 or 3 Windows Version upgrades was equivalent to about 10 years of device-life for computer hardware. Today, with Win 10, 2 or 3 Windows Version upgrades is equivalent to about 2 years of device-life and if the Win 10 computer could no longer be upgraded to the next Version, it will be EOL-ed in about another 12 months’ time. There are Win 10 RTM/Version 1507, Version 1511, Version 1607, Version 1703 and the coming Version 1709 and so on.
            … Previously, consumers running old Windows Version, eg Win XP and Win 7, could opt not to upgrade to newer Versions (upgrade = pay M$ for new Windows licenses) and still be supported by M$ for about 10 years until EOL. Today, with Win 10, consumers no longer have this option.

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            • #128011 Reply
              AlexEiffel
              AskWoody_MVP

              It is the Apple way of doing planned obsolescence and it is bad for the environment. It encourages a throw away culture and waht some might qualify as unhealthy consumerism.

              When the smartphones were new and improving so much, one could make the argument that people wanted the newest capabilities and it might be true to some extent.

              But with maturity slowly reaching the phone and being well entrenched on the desktop, one could find it odious that after 3-4 years, a perfectly usable computer is rendered useless in practice because security issues aren’t addressed no more. I have no problem with Apple not pushing IOS 11 on Iphone 5. But I have a problem if they don’t issue security patches no more to IOS 10 on this still not so old phone. If Windows becomes that way, I think it is not good for the world. I have no problem with staying on the same version with security updates and there is no reason to not fix what should not have been there in the first place. Imagine Toyota not fixing a break issue because the car is too old we won’t make a recall. I see security issues as a similar thing and that should encourage manufacturer’s to be more careful about them instead of being lazy and rely on obsolescence to make the problems disappear.

              2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #127959 Reply
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        I think your post was clear enough. ?
        It is only me disagreeing with some of the mainstream points of view here.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
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