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  • Have you been prevented from installing Win 7 or 8.1 updates on Kaby Lake or Ryzen systems?

    Home Forums AskWoody blog Have you been prevented from installing Win 7 or 8.1 updates on Kaby Lake or Ryzen systems?

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    This topic contains 218 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  DAVe3283 2 years, 7 months ago.

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    • #101730 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      There’s a storm brewing in the Windows blogosphere, with echo chamber wails growing, teeth gnashing over something Microsoft said. What I want to know is if anybody has seen the threatened (promised?) change in action.

      [See the full post at: Have you been prevented from installing Win 7 or 8.1 updates on Kaby Lake or Ryzen systems?]

    • #101737 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      As I posted in the original thread, I’m curious to see whether updates can be installed manually (ideally with a tool like WSUS Offline). I don’t have a Kaby Lake or Ryzen CPU to test this with, but I’m hoping (assuming?) someone does and will, somewhere.

      If all they’re doing is blocking the ability to search for updates with WU, that’s not really doing much other than being an annoyance. I would assume most people building new systems with KL/Ryzen are going to be savvy enough to want to be in charge of their own updating anyway. 🙂

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #101744 Reply

      satrow
      AskWoody MVP

      There might be a temporary method to get a fully updated W7 installed on ‘forbidden’ CPU’s, I’ve asked for volunteers 😉 : http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread//775169-How-to-make-a-Windows-7-SP1-Convenience-Rollup-ISO-with-all-updates-up-to-2016

      There may be more alternative methods, I recall 2x DE sites that developed patches last year that were designed to bypass the W7 WU debacle of the last year or so.

    • #101777 Reply

      anonymous

      I thought it was just a lack of drivers in W7 for these new processors. Chipsets would be a problem from an OEM too, but didn’t Lenovo say they were no longer playing nice with Intel and MS on this. Ryzen stated that they did functional tests with their latest processors using W7 and W8 and they passed, however they also said that they were built to leverage W10.

      Here is a link to discussion, Re: a guy with W7 installed on a Kaby Lake system….
      http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-3301016/skylake-kaby-lake-windows.html

      It was last updated March 7, 2017.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #101799 Reply

      anonymous

      Not quite understanding what’s behind all this… New hardware without drivers yet made, or is it Microsoft (or the hardware manufacturers) dumping Windows 7 and 8.1 support, thus forcing Windows 10 on people and corporations?

       

      Microsoft’s policies are cringing me down to the bone marrow, these are not the most pleasant times to be working on the IT field…

    • #101819 Reply

      Ascaris
      AskWoody_MVP

      There are levels of “not supported.”

      1. “Windows 7 does not support x.”

      This one is not a huge deal.  For example, Windows 7 does not support USB3.  In order to get USB3 functionality, you have to install USB3 drivers on your own, and that any support for issues with those drivers will not be provided by Microsoft… that will be up to the OEM of the motherboard, laptop, or the maker of the USB3 chipset.  It doesn’t even remotely mean that if you have Windows 7, you can forget about using USB3.

      2. “Windows 7 does not support x, and all the manufacturers of x have agreed not to provide the drivers for x on Windows 7.”

      Now there’s a problem.  If MS decides not to support x on Windows 7 (which is in extended support), that’s their prerogative, but it isn’t their prerogative to conspire/collude with hardware manufacturers to not provide drivers for older, more popular operating systems.

      We can reasonably assume this has happened, given the statements by AMD and Intel, since neither of them ordinarily would give two shakes about what OS the person installs.  They’re out to sell CPUs, not promote a given software platform, and it’s obvious that they’d rather reach a bigger market than a smaller one.   AMD and Intel are both cutting off a significant percentage of their customer base by refusing to enable users to install Windows versions that currently make up 72% of the Windows market (netmarketshare.com numbers).  While not all of those 72% are “never 10” people like me, a lot of them are, and ordinarily, there would be no reason for a hardware vendor to leave them out in the cold.

      3. “”Windows 7 does not support x, and all the manufacturers of x have agreed not to provide the drivers for x on Windows 7.  In addition, we will be blocking all Windows 7 updates on systems containing x hardware.”

      This one’s beyond the pale.  It’s no different than the cynical move that some printer manufacturers have made when they included a DRM chip in each of their ink cartridges, without which the printer refuses to work.  It’s not that the cartridge is actually incompatible… it’s that the printer and driver look for that chip, and if it’s not there, they pretend the cartridge is incompatible to force the user into behavior that is better for the printer manufacturer and worse for himself.

      I’d put a printer manufacturer on my lifetime boycott list for doing that (or the equally cynical “brick the printer after a page count threshold has been reached” thing).  It’s unconscionable, wildly anti-consumer behavior.  It’s not a way that a company that respects (or deserves) its customers behaves.

      If only we could boycott MS forever.  It simply is not possible for a great many of us, and it’s really quite sad that it’s gotten to this point.  There’s always been a lot of MS hate, and much of it has been deserved, but I always liked and defended Windows.  I know a lot of my Linux-using compatriots habitually call Windows a terrible OS, but it really isn’t… or at least it wasn’t until quite recently.  It isn’t perfect, but it isn’t the mess that some people make it out to be either.

      In practical terms, this particular issue is of little concern to me personally, as the pace of CPU speed increases has slowed to a crawl.  Older CPUs remain relevant far longer than they ever have, and there are still plenty of older-generation CPUs and board available in the secondary market.  Given how many of these CPUs were manufactured, it’s not likely at all that we’d get to a point where we can’t get a decent older CPU at a good price.

      Whenever I do eventually decide to upgrade my CPU/motherboard once again, I would like to support AMD by going with Ryzen (or whatever it may be called at such a future date), but if they’re going to let MS bully them into not allowing any older versions of Windows (and if no workaround is found), I guess I will be stuck with older Intel platforms.

      This issue, though, does matter to me as a sign of things to come, and the depths to which MS will sink to force people to use their garbage.

      Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.5).

      • #101883 Reply

        lurks about
        AskWoody Lounger

        The biggest headache I see is for chip manufacturers not making W7 compatible drivers. But one item must be remember, other than builders and gamers, most will buy a computer with whatever OS version is installed and not really care what the CPU is (or even know). Builders and gamers will care because they might want to migrate some older software to the new box that only runs on earlier OS versions.

        The real downside for MS is the appearance of finding another sleazy method to harass users into using W10 at all costs. Ther previous antics has created much ill-will with many users that they should be treading very softly.

      • #101888 Reply

        James Bond 007
        AskWoody Lounger

        I saw this article about Microsoft possibly block Windows 7 or 8.1 updates on Kaby Lake or Ryzen system in the future. I was about to respond when I saw your post that said almost everything I wanted to say, in a better way. Thanks Ascaris.

        Like you, I am originally planning to get a Ryzen system later, partly to support AMD and partly to upgrade a Sandy Bridge system. But I want to run Windows 7 and 8.1 on it, and not Windows 10. I am torn upon hearing this. On one hand, I really want to support AMD this time for releasing a good product. On the other hand, I hate Microsoft for doing this, and if AMD collude with (or is coerced into it by) Microsoft to do this, AMD too.

        However, as a Windows 7 Group B user (and willing to go to Group C if the security-only updates cause problems), perhaps the possible lack of updates from Microsoft may be a blessing in disguise as I don’t have to worry about those updates causing problems anymore.

        So I am inclined at this point to go ahead with the Ryzen purchase once a suitable CPU and motherboard is available at my place. I will wait 1-2 months before making a final decision, while at the same time waiting for the motherboard vendors to fix any problems. Meanwhile I have 2 other systems running on the X99 platform so I can use them if I want higher performance.

        If I decide to not get Ryzen, I may use some of that money to get another Intel Broadwell-E CPU to use on spare X99 motherboards I have. In such a case, it is your loss, AMD, which is unfortunate. Blame Microsoft for my decision.

        Well, it seems to me the X99 platform (and possibly Ryzen) will be the last PC platform for me for a long period of time.

        Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

      • #101899 Reply

        anonymous

        AWESOME analysis 🙂

        I remember those old printer days ‘challenges’
        wonderful memories being ripped off 🙂
        scar me for life… HA HA 😀

        guess MS is at that level of devolution now
        when clearly the world is not USSA nor UScentric anymore…
        [Edited by Woody]

        In the east everything can be custome build
        isnt that the way of internet of things? creative life force?
        MOR FRE DOM NOT LES

        Looks like AMD is the future hot stuff

        back to fishing for better dreams

      • #102036 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        In case this is not clear, it’s Option #3. If M$ does not relent, this is going to be make or break for Windows. I vote for break them! I have alternatives (Linux) on Intel hardware (until M$ and Intel ban Linux!).

        -- rc primak

        • #102085 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody_MVP

          I vote for break them!

          While I’m still not enough a fan of Unix derivatives to want to run one of them, I certainly haven’t sent Microsoft any money lately! I’ve been buying their software since they started, sometimes in big chunks, but no more.

          The Windows systems I already have – perpetually licensed, activated, and well-protected from failure – will keep for a while yet. After that I anticipate being able to move up to another several generations of high-end hardware (e.g., up to Xeon v5) without yet being forced off my pre-Win 10 systems of choice. Maybe – just maybe – they’ll turn back toward the straight and narrow and release a Win 10 that’s worth having at some point.

          I’d like to hope that, in the interim, if enough consumers don’t send Microsoft money for things that are truly not better, they’ll get the message.

          However, there’s no question they’ve got the world by the short hairs, and it could be that they can make money for quite a long time on ignorance and inertia (not to mention frivolity – e.g., gamers), leading people around painfully by nose rings and being paid handsomely for it. And changing the culture (*cough* lowering expectations *cough*) in the process. We all secretly hope that won’t be the case, but we can see it already happening…

          The golden age of computing may be coming to a close.

          -Noel

          2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #101822 Reply

      Rock
      AskWoody Lounger

      Things will change once the hardware manufacturers start losing business from people willingly not buying their stuff because of these strong arm tactics.
      “The tighter you grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.”

      – Princes Leia

       

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #101838 Reply

      anonymous

      By the way, the source of the flame war is Reddit.

    • #101867 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      There’s an excellent overview of the situation from Peter Bright at Ars Technica this evening.

      Peter’s of the impression that the restrictions are coming, but aren’t here yet. He (like all of us) isn’t certain what form the restrictions will take.

      Good read.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #101901 Reply

        James Bond 007
        AskWoody Lounger

        There’s an excellent overview of the situation from Peter Bright at Ars Technica this evening.

        Peter’s of the impression that the restrictions are coming, but aren’t here yet. He (like all of us) isn’t certain what form the restrictions will take.

        Good read.

        I tend to agree with Peter Bright this time. I also feel that no matter what form the restriction will take I won’t like it.

        I saw one person who posted a question on that AMD Reddit thread that is relevant to me and maybe others who use virtual machines. I would be interested to know the answer. Here it is :

        If I use VMware Workstation to create a Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 virtual machine on a Kaby Lake or Ryzen system, will Windows Update inside the virtual machine block me from receiving updates now or in the future? As those of you who use VMware knows, the CPU id of the host system is visible to the guest system inside the virtual machine. Therefore, it is possible that Windows Update detects the virtual machine to be a Kaby Lake or Ryzen system (because it sees the CPU as a Kaby Lake or Ryzen) and then you won’t receive updates from Windows Update inside the virtual machine.

        I also wonder whether the current Group B practice of downloading security-only updates from the Update Catalog myself and installing them myself will still work on a Kaby Lake or Ryzen system running Windows 7 or 8.1. Will Microsoft implement such a hardware detection routine in the update file(s) that blocks the updates from installing on Kaby Lake or Ryzen systems in the future? We shall see.

        Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

        • #102037 Reply

          rc primak
          AskWoody_MVP

          Microsoft Updates is perfectly capable of preventing the updating of a VM.

          -- rc primak

          • #103218 Reply

            James Bond 007
            AskWoody Lounger

            Microsoft Updates is perfectly capable of preventing the updating of a VM.

            I suppose it is. But will Microsoft actually prevent Windows 7 / Windows 8.1 virtual machines running under a Kaby Lake / Ryzen system from getting updates from Windows Update in the future? Well, if they do…

            I will need confirmation on this issue before I go ahead with my original plan of building a Ryzen system.

            As Woody said this is speculation at the moment, but with Microsoft releasing that KB4012982 article, I think it is obvious they intend to go ahead unless they meet strong opposition.

            Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

            • #103242 Reply

              James Bond 007
              AskWoody Lounger

              As Woody said this is speculation at the moment, but with Microsoft releasing that KB4012982 article, I think it is obvious they intend to go ahead unless they meet strong opposition.

              It seems that this is no longer speculation. The March preview rollup contains code to implement this blocking, which most likely means that the code will be present starting from the April rollup. Will the security-only updates be still installable on a Kaby Lake / Ryzen system running Windows 7 or Windows 8.1? That is a question I want answered.

              As VMware Workstation displays the CPU id of the host to any virtual machines, it seems to me that this blocking issue will also affect Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 running in virtual machines under VMware Workstation on a Kaby Lake / Ryzen system (even if the host system is Windows 10 or Linux). As a heavy user of VMware Workstation, this is unacceptable to me. So unless there is a workaround (or it is confirmed that this blocking issue won’t affect Windows running in virtual machines), I can’t go with a Ryzen system. So for me stay with X99 it is.

              Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

    • #101878 Reply

      anonymous

      May I ask what the problem is here? Windows 7 support will end in about 3 years. It’s two years into extended support. Do you really expect them to keep supporting a nearly 8 year old operating system from 2009 on new hardware from 2016 and 2017? Also without driver support from either Intel or AMD it makes it even more pointless for Microsoft to support Windows 7 on new CPUs.

      As for Windows 8.1, while it is still under mainstream support its market share is so small it’s not worth the effort on the part of Microsoft and CPU makers to support it. People seem to forget that Windows 7 and 8.1 are getting older. I know there are a lot of Windows 7 fans here but point is it’s a really old operating system. You shouldn’t really expect to get optimal performance from a nearly 8 year old operating system on a new machine from 2016 or 2017.

      I get why people don’t want to use Windows 10. I don’t either. It’s a massive invasion of privacy and there are too many adverts, but to be fair that’s what version of Windows will get supported on anything after Sky Lake.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #101900 Reply

        anonymous

        Yes, I do expect them to support Windows 7 til 2020, because we bought it with that condition. They don’t have to actively support new hardware features (such as intel speed shift) since 2015 or so, but that is fine by me, W7 runs perfectly fine on my i7 7700k and Z270 system (and yes, there are drivers for everything). All I want is to continue getting security updates until 2020, as any other system with any kind of CPU (including Skylake, which is no different than kaby lake). But with this move they artifically distinguish KL and decline security pathces, for no reason. That is the problem.

        Btw, I did windows updates (including this month’s updates) and haven’t seen this error message… yet.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #102048 Reply

          anonymous

          I do agree that it should keep getting updates until 2020. But with the way Microsoft is it doesn’t seem it’ll be that way.

        • #102096 Reply

          b
          AskWoody Plus

          Yes, I do expect them to support Windows 7 til 2020, because we bought it with that condition.

          There was no condition that it would be considered compatible with future hardware.

          Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #102190 Reply

            AlexEiffel
            AskWoody_MVP

            But they never did something like that in the past. People have certain expectations and being able to run on modern hardware was one of them and included in the traditional definition of support. If you bought a retail Windows version, it was very expensive and it came with the privilege to move it to a new machine so if the new machines can’t be supported, it is like not being able to transfer it to a new machine.

            Plus, there is no technical difficulty supporting newer processors. It is just a marketing move to coerce users to 10 and has nothing to do with reasonable decisions from what is now an unreasonable company.

            b, a lot of things you bring to these conversations are good points you being the devil’s advocate for many here, but you don’t need to always take the other side when it clearly doesn’t seem justified.

            Really, I see absolutely no reasonable justification for this move. It is just another breach of trust or obvious disrespect for users since Windows 10 arrived, just like the hypocritical moves to removes some features traditionnally expected in the Pro version and reserve them for Enterprise only.

            3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #101902 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      As for Windows 8.1, while it is still under mainstream support its market share is so small it’s not worth the effort on the part of Microsoft and CPU makers to support it.

      Maybe it should be stated in MS license – we provide 5 years mainstream support IF we decide it’s worth it. If not, then go …. yourself.

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #101903 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Whenever I do eventually decide to upgrade my CPU/motherboard once again, I would like to support AMD by going with Ryzen (or whatever it may be called at such a future date), but if they’re going to let MS bully them into not allowing any older versions of Windows (and if no workaround is found), I guess I will be stuck with older Intel platforms.

      Actually, AMD officially realeased Windows 7 drivers:

      http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/am4-chipset-driver.aspx

      ​​​Supports Windows 10/7 (​64-bit)

       

      What is even more funny, World record in Cinebench benchmark has been achieved using Ryzen and Windows 7:

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #101907 Reply

        anonymous

        No 8.1 drivers?

      • #102038 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        Drivers are not the issue, at least in the PC World and Ars Technica versions of this story. It’s Microsoft Updates itself which will not work in these systems on these chipsets. This is purely enforced at the Microsoft end of things, as I read the story so far.

        -- rc primak

    • #101920 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      No 8.1 drivers?

      Seems so, but I guess they *should* work. Try browsing YouTube maybe…

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #101934 Reply

      Ascaris
      AskWoody_MVP

      May I ask what the problem is here? Windows 7 support will end in about 3 years.

      Anonymous, I take it you didn’t see my post above where I addressed this.

      It’s not just that MS has decided not to support new CPU architectures on Win 7.  As a product in extended support, I would not expect new features like this to be added to it.  If MS had simply stopped there, I’d have no problem with their decision (for 7 only; as far as I am concerned, MS is contractually obliged to support new CPU architectures on 8.1 since it’s in mainstream support).

      Unfortunately, MS didn’t stop there.

      They’ve told us that not only will Microsoft not support new CPU generations on Windows 7, but neither will AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm provide the drivers necessary for any version of Windows other than 10.

      That’s a little odd to hear that coming from Microsoft instead of any of the CPU manufacturers, isn’t it?  Why is MS speaking for AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm?  Why would hardware manufacturers, who have no interest in the success or failure of Windows 10, but who have a big interest in selling as many chips as possible, decide not to support the most popular Windows version in existence?  It’s “only” got three years of life in it, but three years is a long time for computer hardware.  They could score a lot of sales during those three years.  This is probably not an issue for Qualcomm, as AFAIK they only have ARM-based CPU/SoCs, but it is for Intel and especially AMD, which badly needs a success in Ryzen now.

      We know why MS would refuse to support anything new on versions other than 10: they have no concern for CPU sales, but they have a huge interest in the adoption rate of Windows 10.  It’s all upside and no downside for MS to only support new hardware on 10. Why the CPU makers would get on board with such a thing, though, is another question, since for them, cutting off the percentage of the customer base that refuses Windows 10 as potential customers is all downside.

      Remember when news leaked out a few weeks ago about AMD deciding to support Win 7 on Ryzen after all?  It was quickly tamped down by AMD; they reaffirmed their commitment to only supporting 10.  The first thing that I thought of was that someone at MS had a little talk with AMD.  Microsoft runs the WHQL and decides which CAs get to issue certificates for the signed drivers that Win 10 x64 requires (like the ones for AMD GPUs), and I’m thinking that no one really wants to anger them.

      MS has a long history of doing things exactly like making that threat, like when they told PC manufacturers that they’d better not preinstall Netscape on their machines (I believe HP wanted do to s0), or else they might not get any more licenses for preinstalled Windows.  How many PCs do you think they would have sold without Windows installed?

      But MS hasn’t stopped there, apparently.  Now we’ve seen reports that MS may be planning to actively deny Windows updates to Win 7 installations on systems using any of the newest CPUs– in effect, sabotaging installations of Windows that don’t further the MS marketing plan.  We’re talking about installations that are already up and running on these new CPUs; you can’t see the “sorry, no updates for you” message until Windows is installed and ready to update.  Microsoft can’t seriously claim the update blockage is about compatibility when the “incompatible” OS is already running on the “incompatible” platform.  If it truly was incompatible, or partly so (in other words, it would work, but with glitches), that in itself should be a big enough reason to get people who “foolishly” install Windows 7 on a system with the latest-gen CPU to reconsider and go to 10.

      Radosuaf has indicated above that AMD has, in fact, released Win 7 drivers, in defiance of Microsoft’s ban.  Good for you, AMD, but one question: Why not 8.1?  Its life cycle isn’t even half over yet.  Sure, there are not that many using 8.1, but it’s also nearly the same as 10 “under the hood,” so it would take a really minimal amount of work to port whatever drivers they wrote for 10 to 8.1.

      Six years is a long time in the computer world.  Maybe by then Windows 10 will have evolved to something decent… or maybe Linux will have caught up enough for me to dump Windows completely without any discomfort at all.

      Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.5).

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #101946 Reply

        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        @ascaris

        Please understand that many people read and contribute here to find solutions to their real life problems and not to find what is wrong with Microsoft.

        Please stop posting about technologies which you don’t use (Windows 10) and limit your posts to Linux if this is your preference.

        [Edited by Woody]

        • #102092 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody_MVP

          Sorry, but I can’t agree with that, not even a little bit.

          There’s nothing wrong with holding and stating a negative opinion of things one sees as being done wrong. Repeating that opinion benefits those who might not have seen it the prior time it was expressed.

          I believe people should NOT just stop complaining and just accept a “new normal” when things are done wrong and getting worse and nothing seems to be changing. It just makes everything worse for everyone in the long term.

          It may not be wrong for Microsoft to try to push limits for the benefit of their business, but if everyone just stops pushing back in areas where they shouldn’t be going, where does it end? Let us never forget that things are being pushed on us today that only a scant few years ago were considered solidly in the realm of malware. Collusion with other manufacturers starts to smell like the realm of anti-trust laws.

          Some people actually do actually have the knowledge and intelligence to make a reasonable judgment about what’s right and wrong, and their opinions shouldn’t be suppressed.

          -Noel

          6 users thanked author for this post.
      • #101962 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        They’ve told us that not only will Microsoft not support new CPU generations on Windows 7, but neither will AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm provide the drivers necessary for any version of Windows other than 10.

        I’m not aware of Microsoft saying that. Do you have a source?

        As you say, it would be very awkward for Microsoft to make that kind of promise for AMD, Intel and Qualcomm.

        • #102039 Reply

          rc primak
          AskWoody_MVP

          I’ve only read that Microsoft Updates won’t work on these chipsets. Not that M$ has said anything about or to manufacturers about their hardware or drivers.

          Then again, what use is driver support if the OS can’t be updated? And if Office can’t be updated, etc…

          -- rc primak

        • #102097 Reply

          Ascaris
          AskWoody_MVP

          I’ll see if I can find it, Woody.

          Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.5).

          • #102098 Reply

            PKCano
            Da Boss

            @b quotes it somewhere so maybe that’s a clue

            Have you been prevented from installing Win 7 or 8.1 updates on Kaby Lake or Ryzen systems?

            Edit to add link

          • #102108 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody_MVP

            Got a few here.

            From Shad Larsen, director of Windows business planning at MS:

            “Future silicon platforms including Intel’s upcoming 7th Gen Intel Core (Kaby Lake) processor family and AMD’s 7th generation processors (e.g. Bristol Ridge) will only be supported on Windows 10, and all future silicon releases will require the latest release of Windows 10.”

            From Terry Myerson, EVP of Windows and Devices at MS:

            “For example, Windows 10 will be the only supported Windows platform on Intel’s upcoming “Kaby Lake” silicon, Qualcomm’s upcoming “8996” silicon, and AMD’s upcoming “Bristol Ridge” silicon.”

            It’s creepy having MS tell us which vendors will be issuing drivers for which versions of Windows.   MS can certainly choose not to provide chipset drivers for the newest CPUs on 7 or 8, but to tell us that no one else is going to either is… well, as I said, creepy.

            Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.5).

            3 users thanked author for this post.
            • #102138 Reply

              woody
              Da Boss

              Yes, you have a good point, but both of those are very carefully worded.

              “Future silicon platforms including Intel’s upcoming 7th Gen Intel Core (Kaby Lake) processor family and AMD’s 7th generation processors (e.g. Bristol Ridge) will only be supported on Windows 10, and all future silicon releases will require the latest release of Windows 10.”

              and Terry’s quote carefully side-step the question of whether Intel and AMD may, themselves, support Windows 10 – and whether those processors will be blocked pre-emptively by, say, an installer that refuses to work on those processors.

              If there’s a cursory glance at the processor type by the installer, then it should be very easy to bypass using, e.g., WSUS Offline – or simply downloading and installing the MSU file.

              3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #101942 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Remember when news leaked out a few weeks ago about AMD deciding to support Win 7 on Ryzen after all? It was quickly tamped down by AMD; they reaffirmed their commitment to only supporting 10. The first thing that I thought of was that someone at MS had a little talk with AMD. Microsoft runs the WHQL and decides which CAs get to issue certificates for the signed drivers that Win 10 x64 requires (like the ones for AMD GPUs), and I’m thinking that no one really wants to anger them.

      Guess who’s supplying chips for Xbox consoles? 🙂 Probably MS told them it would be “unfortunate” if they had to change the supplier for the next gen…

       

      Radosuaf has indicated above that AMD has, in fact, released Win 7 drivers, in defiance of Microsoft’s ban. Good for you, AMD, but one question: Why not 8.1?

      They have already dropped support for 32-bit 8.1 in their graphic card drivers. Probably the market share is too low for them to be interested. That’s why I would prefer Win 7 users to move to 8.1.

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #101947 Reply

      ch100
      AskWoody_MVP

      That’s why I would prefer Win 7 users to move to 8.1.

      I think you favour a half-way solution. You are not alone if this is a consolation. 🙂
      Windows 10 is nothing else than Windows 8.2 or other iterations of Windows 8.
      It is only a naming convention for the current Windows to be named as Windows 8.x, Windows 9.x or Windows 10.x (1507, 1511, 1607, 1703 and so on). 🙂

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #101950 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      That’s why I would prefer Win 7 users to move to 8.1.

      I think you favour a half-way solution. You are not alone if this is a consolation.  Windows 10 is nothing else than Windows 8.2 or other iterations of Windows 8. It is only a naming convention for the current Windows to be named as Windows 8.x, Windows 9.x or Windows 10.x (1507, 1511, 1607, 1703 and so on).  

      I know that in terms of kernel they’re really similar, but with terrible GUI, all the telemetry being inherent to the system (as opposed to being added to 7/8.1 and basically non-existent if CEIP is off), forced updates, application installs and so on it’s just not for me.

      Maybe moving from 7 to 8.1 was just postponing the inevitable, but I’ll gladly spend some time away from W10, if that is still possible. Luckily I was able to get hold of W8 Pro license (which I updated to W10 Pro and reinstalled clean subsequently) , so even then I will be using CBB and looking from above at “unwashed masses” doing all the testing for MS on Home version :).

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
      • #101953 Reply

        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        Sorry @radosuaf , the word “telemetry” or its slang counterpart “snooping” are overused and largely misunderstood.
        You can obviously stay with 8.1, 7, Vista or even XP but I don’t think this is in your best interest.
        Whatever you choose, any version of Windows, MacOS, Chrome or Linux is your choice.
        And if you want to be taken seriously in any technical discussion, please avoid the “Home Version” paradigm.
        The Home Version users unfortunately don’t have much choice and this is by design. They are by definition followers with little leverage in this debate.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #101963 Reply

          woody
          Da Boss

          The Home Version users unfortunately don’t have much choice and this is by design. They are by definition followers with little leverage in this debate.

          Well, yes, if you’re saying that Microsoft doesn’t listen to Windows Home users, I fear you’re right.

          That’s unfortunate because there are hundreds of millions of Windows Home users out there. Some folks (present company included) have the notion that Microsoft might take them into account. Or perhaps they’re to be treated like cannon fodder, like the unpaid beta testers they are.

          Microsoft needs Windows Home users every bit as much as they need Volume Licensees.

          (We can have a debate about “telemetry” vs “snooping” at another time. There’s much to be said. 🙂 )

          3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #101987 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody_MVP

          Sorry @radosuaf , the word “telemetry” or its slang counterpart “snooping” are overused and largely misunderstood.

          I respectfully disagree with the “overused” part, though I’ll concede that it’s misunderstood. Unfortunately, quite possibly it’s underestimated.

          Microsoft, application makers, and web site designers have been adding “cloud integration” for many years. This means various parts of your system communicate autonomously or quietly with machines elsewhere, and some of it goes way back. There are in fact many, many such communications.

          All serve some purpose, some directly benefiting the user and some seeming to serve only the author’s needs.

          Here’s the kicker: Virtually all such information sent could be abused, especially in combination. We know that there are those who know how to build a profile from such information and that it is considered seriously valuable (look at how much Microsoft paid for LinkedIn, for example, and how many online entities try to track you).

          Depending on your configuration and what you are doing, the following information may be sent to a machine elsewhere:

          • When your computer is on, even if you’re not there.
          • Precisely when you are using your computer.
          • What keystrokes you type into your browser
          • What web sites you visit and what they have shown to you.
          • What web site you were on before visiting a new one.
          • What’s in your clipboard when you visit a web site.
          • What programs you run.
          • Binary data from within programs that fail.
          • How you have chosen to configure your OS.
          • How you use the UI.
          • Your activation is checked (and can be remotely disabled).
          • The things you say and whatever your microphone picks up from the room.
          • Your files may be automatically copied to online servers.

          Some of the above are easily de-configurable, and some the OS will do unless you take exceptional measures.

          There was a time when Microsoft acted in a trustworthy manner, and many people were willing to put up with some data being sent in order to be an effective partner and take part in bigger things.

          Unfortunately, many folks feel Microsoft is no longer acting in ways to justify trust. You, of course, have to make your own judgment.

          And this discussion does not only hinge on Microsoft. Other entities conspire to gather information from you as well. Most web sites – even this one – watch what you do online.

          For someone who wants their computer to communicate with any online entity as little as possible, because they view even the potential for data abuse and privacy invasion as unacceptable, there are things that can be done, and they may be willing to accept a reduction in functionality to reduce “snooping”.

          The extreme would be to just unplug and disconnect from the world entirely, and I imagine a very few actually do that. But there are intermediate measures that CAN be taken to reduce “snooping” without going off grid…

          These are just a few that come to mind:

          • De-configure the various provided options for limiting data collection using UI-provided settings. Of course you have to find them first.
          • De-configure functionality governed by more subtle settings, such as those found in the Group Policy Editor and the Registry. Again, you have to find them. There are some programs (O&O ShutUp10, W10Privacy) that attempt to put all the pertinent settings in a convenient panel; of course now you have to decide whether to trust THEM.
          • Take control of Windows Update so that it only goes online to check for patches when you give it permission to do so.
          • Hide and disallow installation of certain Windows Updates designed to increase your system’s online activity.
          • Uninstall/disable/block the running of features that you don’t want communicating online (e.g., OneDrive, Skype, Cortana, VSHub). You have to make a value judgment whether you’d rather have those features or the additional privacy that comes from not using them.
          • Blacklist servers and domains via firewall and DNS resolution to prevent tracking your activity or transfer of telemetry. The list of these is not small!

          And of course you have to keep up with changes to all of the above techniques as new versions come out, and you have to re-do many of them on installation of each new version.

          -Noel

          6 users thanked author for this post.
        • #101991 Reply

          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody_MVP

          Home version users are not inferior users. Power users who uses Home version should not be treated with condescension and I don’t think they should be treated less seriously. Lots of people didn’t know what they bought when they either took the free upgrade from Home 7 or 8 to 10 or when the replaced their computer for one of the majority that only comes with Home 10.

          Home users often are people who were used to buy a PC with Windows preinstalled and having some control over it, not missing any feature from Pro. The differences between Pro and Home during 8 and before was not necessarily relevant to many and didn’t prevent them from having a certain control over their computer or enjoying the experience of using a computer. If Home was so bad, why would people have continued to buy it that much and not ask the retailers to sell a Pro version? Word would have been out. I don’t remember seeing a popular magazine article about why you really shouldn’t buy a home version in the past. I bet lots of retailers would have been happy to up sell a Pro version of 7 if they thought it was easy. Lots of them sold an initial preparation of your PC to decrapify it from the preinstalled trials, so they could have added a Pro license as well if it was so great for home users.

          Some users bought 10 with the same expectations as before and they discovered the rules had changed once they tried to delay updating. They are now forced to be beta testers on CB, no access to CBB unless relying on tricks that might not work later, which is a big change from the time you could just easily delay updates, to name only one.

          I bought my parents a Home version of 7 because I could tweak it enough for them and they didn’t need to spend the not insignificant money for the ability to join a domain or use gpedit. I expected them to be happy with it and not change for the duration of the hardware. All of the people who did that with me didn’t suffer from it. Now Microsoft has changed the game with Windows 10 and home users have clearly much less control, as Pro users clearly have less control than Enterprise, too. Now I am unhappy to be on Pro and I can’t even realistically think normal single station power users folks have a choice to buy the version they want to have the control they want at a reasonable price, which is realistically Enterprise because a non-existent real LTS general purpose version they wish for doesn’t exist. Plus now, they all have to endure ads in addition to pay for the license on a new computer.

          So, I don’t think it is unreasonable for all those people who bought a Home version new computer on 10 that comes here after realizing how bad it is to expect people will do everything they can to help them manage around the new way of doing things as much as they can. Yes, it is now the way it is done, but you can’t deny that people might have had reasonable expectations things were going to be as they always have been before if they don’t follow tech closely, differences between Pro and Home having been largely irrelevant to many in the past and not having any real impact in the way they used their computer.

          I upgraded some Home 7 to 10 and now I am interested in Home version because I have to manage these friends stations the best I can even if it has become difficult while before it wasn’t because the needs of those users were simple and easily met with a cleaned once during initial install PC.

          4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #102022 Reply

          anonymous

          Good grief. This exaggerated feeling of being superior to others is nauseating. Home users deserve to be taken seriously and should never be treated with disdain. W7/8 Home licenses were never free, so these users are customers with standing. They are not lab rats or steerage.

          5 users thanked author for this post.
        • #102114 Reply

          Ascaris
          AskWoody_MVP

          CH100, the problem with this is that we, the users, don’t really need to “understand” telemetry (and, by implication, to accept it).  Microsoft needs to understand us, the users, when we say we don’t care what their excuses are about why it’s harmless and why we should not be concerned about it.  Many of us have given due consideration to Microsoft’s explanation, and we’ve rejected it.

          I don’t care if they’re only getting anonymized usage statistics and crash data… I still want an OFF button, like the one MS has given to enterprise customers.  All of the same “reasons” that telemetry should stay on still exist for enterprise, and if anything, they’re even more prescient, since enterprise customers have different usage patterns that may well reveal a different set of bugs, and are clearly the preferred Windows users.

          As long as there’s no OFF button for all of the telemetry, this will continue to be an albatross on Microsoft’s neck.  It’s a symbol for Microsoft’s insistence upon a regime that upends the idea that Microsoft serves its customers, and replaces it with one whereincustomers serve Microsoft.

          Microsoft won’t fix Windows 10 if we all just suck if up and get on board and accept servitude to MS as the new normal.  Thus, I don’t think it serves anyone’s needs except Microsoft’s to have people upgrade to 10.  If we don’t put them on a time-out, they will never learn better behavior.

           

          Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.5).

          3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #103546 Reply

          anonymous

          You are saying that Microsoft is a company that no longer supports Home Users?. Their new business model is Enterprise only? That does explain some things. Wonder how that will go for them…

    • #101961 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      You can obviously stay with 8.1, 7, Vista or even XP but I don’t think this is in your best interest.

      Not going into rant here, but how would you describe my “best interest”? I’d say that would be using a system that suits my needs best. As a MS systems user since MS-DOS 3.30 I can quite easily verify what is best for me, even if I’m not too technical about it. It’s like choosing your car – you don’t have to be an engineer or race driver to choose, which is the best for you.

      With W10, all the annoyances far outweigh any benefits for me.

      You have to agree there was no special push for Win 7 adoption and that was the biggest MS success. Yes, it was because Vista was widely perceived as “failure”, but so was/is Windows 8. After free offer, GWX and now refraining to support new hardware W10 is still far below MS expectations. If it does not proof the low quality of the product itself, how would you call it?

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #101989 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        With W10, all the annoyances far outweigh any benefits for me.

        So far that’s been my judgment too.

        I FULLY evaluate every new version that’s released (thank goodness for virtual machines) in the hopes that Microsoft will finally have implemented some substantial improvements to the OS. So far, for my needs, they simply haven’t done so. And worse, their policies are moving away from my ideals (a new version release of an operating system every 8 months and user testing of the system instead of professional SVT are frankly, ridiculous).

        I do understand ch100’s point – he’s implying something we all know: Keeping up with the current OS does have intangible advantages. What he has to realize, though, is that those of us who HAVE run every version – or nearly every version – of Windows released in the past aren’t suddenly “stick-in-the-muds”.

        The new software actually has to be better than the old software!

        If not, continuing to run the old software is not unacceptable or evil, or even worthy of criticism.

        -Noel

        7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #102144 Reply

        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        It’s like choosing your car – you don’t have to be an engineer or race driver to choose, which is the best for you.

        You would figure out soon that with an older car, the maintenance costs and time wasted may not be worth the trouble, even if throwing away the car is wasteful. At least in those places where labour costs are high and services expensive.
        It is the same thing with many products and even more so with software.

    • #101965 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Worth a watch:

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #102020 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        Interesting: “Compared to Windows 8.1, [Windows 10] is massively faster on modern hardware.”

        Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

        • #102023 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody_MVP

          Interesting: “Compared to Windows 8.1, [Windows 10] is massively faster on modern hardware.”

          Sure would love to see the evidence. For my tests, in which I concentrated on the basics such as file I/O and UI responsiveness, so far Windows 10 is measurably slower at most things – assuming a circa 2015 Haswell system is considered modern hardware.

          It’s possible certain kinds of video gaming might be faster on the new system, I don’t know.

          -Noel

          • #102041 Reply

            rc primak
            AskWoody_MVP

            I did not vote up the above reply. This is not the first time this has happened when I looked at a Reply which contained a blockquote from a previous post which I may have upvoted.  (Not that I don’t like this Reply, but I never did hit the upvote button there. )

            (Minutes later) — Now the upvote is no longer my icon, but the correct icon of another forum user. Weird!!

            And, nevermind about this Reply.

            Further observation — every time I upvote any post, all upvote icons on the page turn into my icon, until I refresh the page in my browser (Chrome Beta on Ubuntu Linux 16.04 LTS). Very weird!

            -- rc primak

            • #102053 Reply

              Noel Carboni
              AskWoody_MVP

              Yeah, from what I can see the implementation of this site is still imperfect in a few ways.

              But the fact that we are all here pretty effectively communicating says it’s not bad!

              -Noel

              3 users thanked author for this post.
            • #102054 Reply

              PKCano
              Da Boss

              That happened to me once too. It was there and then it was gone.
              Up/down voting and karma work in strange ways!

              4 users thanked author for this post.
            • #102100 Reply

              HiFlyer
              AskWoody Plus

              That happened to me once too. It was there and then it was gone.
              Up/down voting and karma work in strange ways!

              Gremlins at Work?
              I clicked thanks a couple of times and both mine and Elly’s were inserted.
              Same thing with up votes…which I did not make.

          • #102117 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody_MVP

            I found no difference in frame rates (average, peak, or minimum) or frame times between Windows 7 and 10 on my PC when I tested it in my DX11 game.

            Other than measuring frame rate, it’s really hard to evaluate whether a version of Windows is faster on a given PC quantitatively.  I’m not aware of any benchmark that performs this kind of test; there used to be some in the Win 95 days, but today, it all seems to be about gaming (which makes sense, given that pretty much any PC made in the last 8 years is fast enough for word processing or the like).

            Since I’ve begun my experimentation with Windows 8.1, I can say it certainly seems faster on my Core 2 Duo laptop than 7.  It boots in about half the time (from end of POST to the password prompt), and general things, like drawing dialogs on-screen, loading directories to be able to sort them in folders with huge numbers of files, etc., just feel faster on 8.1, but I can’t rule out the idea that it’s just the placebo effect.

            On my desktop PC, I don’t notice any speed difference in any way.  It actually seems a little slower booting from my SSD, and the other stuff seems exactly the same.

            Windows 10, on the other hand, felt slower on my laptop than 8.1 the last time I used it.  This doesn’t mean anything, of course; without hard numbers, perception is ephemeral and unreliable.  As an example, a faster browser can render a page quicker than a slower one, but the slower one will still feel faster if it begins to display the page sooner.

            Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.5).

            • #102124 Reply

              Noel Carboni
              AskWoody_MVP

              Passmark PerformanceTest has some pretty good benchmarks that assess computing, the UI, and disk access. And there are some especially good Advanced tests.

              For example, so far the faster OS I’ve seen do the Passmark Advanced Disk “Workstation” test was Win 7. That test works up a healthy mix of read and write operations from multiple threads. And that ranking held true with both cached and uncached configurations. Arguably the cached setting is the more likely to indicate real world performance.

              Another thing I did at one point is to play the same ultra HD videos on both Win 7 and 10 booted up and running on the same hardware, and watch hardware temperatures. Surprisingly, temperatures were a good bit higher when the video was played on Win 10.

              When the “Creator” version is out I’ll do more head to head testing and publish the results here on AskWoody. I’m certainly willing to give Microsoft every chance to optimize their latest system, and I’ll be the first to yell it out if my objective testing reveals Windows 10 has overtaken its predecessors.

              In my case the systems tested will be well-tweaked for max performance, not just out-of-box setups.

              -Noel

          • #102133 Reply

            ch100
            AskWoody_MVP

            It has been measured by those who set the benchmark in the VDI world that Windows 10 is about 20% slower than Windows 7 on virtual platform. While the reasons were not clear at the time of those measurements, it was suggested that Windows 10 runs many background system processes which have a major impact.
            If this is the case on virtual platforms, I don’t see why the results would not be similar on any supported hardware, modern or not.
            https://www.loginvsi.com/blog/491-webinar-the-ultimate-windows-10-performance-tuning-for-vdi

            Other resources:
            https://www.loginvsi.com/blog/493-tune-windows-10-in-every-vdi-environment-with-vmware-os-optimization-tool
            https://www.loginvsi.com/blog/520-the-ultimate-windows-10-tuning-template-for-any-vdi-environment
            Windows 10 Optimization – Part 1 – Apps

            Who says Windows 10 is not adopted on a large scale in Enterprise environments?

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #102155 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Plus

              I can’t find anything at any of those links which compares Windows 7 with Windows 10 performance.

              (If it’s in the hour-long video, I can’t hear it even on full volumes.)

              Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

            • #102168 Reply

              ch100
              AskWoody_MVP

              It is in the video.
              Try this alternative URL

            • #102172 Reply

              ch100
              AskWoody_MVP

              This white paper is what you need
              https://www.projectvrc.com/white-papers/18-windows-10-in-vdi-first-analysis/file

              ProjectVRC is the same company under the old name.

            • #102229 Reply

              radosuaf
              AskWoody Lounger

              I can’t find anything at any of those links which compares Windows 7 with Windows 10 performance.

              I’ve already posted this, but have a look here:

              http://pclab.pl/art63999.html

               

              It’s in Polish, but charts are quite international ;).

              MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
        • #102135 Reply

          ch100
          AskWoody_MVP

          @b

          Interesting: “Compared to Windows 8.1, [Windows 10] is massively faster on modern hardware.”

          See my post about the performance benchmarks from LoginVSI which suggest quite the contrary.

    • #101977 Reply

      anonymous

      My Kaby Lake Dell runs Ubuntu 16.04.  No worries. 🙂

       

      • #102047 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        Well, at least for now. But LTS users of Ubuntu do have to upgrade every few years. And other interim releases have very short support horizons. Updates for out of date Ubuntu versions may or may not be available. This applies to all chipsets.

        -- rc primak

        • #102157 Reply

          anonymous

          But LTS users of Ubuntu do have to upgrade every few years.
           

          Yes, but not like Windows 10, where it is every few months.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #102227 Reply

        anonymous

        Care to share some of your actual user experience?
        Is it worth the money?
        Any problems that need to be smooth out prior operation (ie driver issue)?
        Which Ubuntu 16.04 are you on? ubuntu itself or some other flavors?
        Did you clean install Ubuntu 16.04 from pre-loaded MS or it come with Ubuntu 16.04?

        TIA

        back to fishing for better dreams

    • #102018 Reply

      PhotM
      AskWoody Plus

      Here is an addition article on this subject by Ed Bott:

      Microsoft begins blocking updates for older Windows versions on newer hardware
      http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-begins-blocking-updates-for-older-windows-versions-on-newer-hardware/

      Windows 7 is supported until 2020, and Windows 8.1 will get updates until 2023, right? Not if you’re trying to run those older Windows versions on new hardware, as some frustrated customers discovered this week.

      By Ed Bott for The Ed Bott Report | March 17, 2017 — 13:01 GMT (06:01 PDT) | Topic: Enterprise Software

      Anyone running an older version of Windows on new hardware received a rude shock this week when the latest Patch Tuesday updates rolled around.

      Instead of receiving the latest security updates for Windows 7 and Windows 8.1, those customers saw an error message instead.

      Unsupported Hardware

      Your PC uses a processor that isn’t supported on this version of Windows and you won’t receive updates.
      This issue occurs with newer hardware equipped with 7th-generation Intel processors (“Kaby Lake”) and AMD Ryzen (“Bristol Ridge”) chips. Systems with the Intel CPUs installed went on sale in late 2016. Devices built using AMD’s new chips are just beginning to reach the market.

      ……..

      --------------------------------------

      1. Tower Totals: 2xSSD ~512GB, 2xHHD 20 TB, Memory 32GB

      SSDs: 6xOS Partitions, 2xW8.1 Main & Test, 2x10.0 Test, Pro, x64

      CPU i7 2600 K, SandyBridge/CougarPoint, 4 cores, 8 Threads, 3.4 GHz
      Graphics Radeon RX 580, RX 580 ONLY Over Clocked
      More perishable

      2xMonitors Asus DVI, Sony 55" UHD TV HDMI

      1. NUC 5i7 2cores, 4 Thread, Memory 8GB, 3.1 GHz, M2SSD 140GB
      1xOS W8.1 Pro, NAS Dependent, Same Sony above.

      -----------------

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #102030 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Home version users are not inferior users.

      They are, according to MS. I’ve used XP Home, 7 Home Premium and when I was looking for 8, I was looking for Core version. I’ve even asked on this forum if it’s possible to downgrade Pro to Core, as it was almost impossible to find Core version.

      I want the system to be as lean as possible – so if I don’t need some features, I don’t want to install them.

      Luckily, I could get only 8 Pro. 10 is the first version when “Pro” really matters.

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #102031 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Interesting: “Compared to Windows 8.1, [Windows 10] is massively faster on modern hardware.”

      “massively” is an overstatement. But, as I’ve mentioned a few times here Win10 is a tad faster than both 7 and 8.1 in games. If I were using my PC as a game console for gaming only (boot, click on the desktop shortcut, start playing), W10 would be my choice for an OS. Since I do a bit more, that’s not an option.

      As you can read below, Noel tested other aspects and that does not look so good.

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #102040 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      According to PC World, it’s Microsoft. http://www.pcworld.com/article/3181814/windows/microsoft-says-its-blocking-windows-7-8-patches-on-latest-amd-intel-chips.html Welcome to the Brave New World of WaaSS (Windows as a Subscription Service)! 

      It’s just quoting of the article everybody knows already :). They even write:

      Microsoft representatives did not respond by press time when asked for comment.

       

      My guess is they are just probing general audience – if the response will be strong, they’ll say something like “it was just testing”. If the response won’t be strong enough, they’ll carry on.

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      • #102050 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        Here’s hoping you are correct. But this is still ominous, considering all the other things Microsoft has been saying about WaaS (Windows as a Service).

        -- rc primak

      • #102128 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        It’s just quoting of the article everybody knows already :). They even write: Microsoft representatives did not respond by press time when asked for comment. My guess is they are just probing general audience – if the response will be strong, they’ll say something like “it was just testing”. If the response won’t be strong enough, they’ll carry on.

        I think that’s likely. I’ve been in touch with the authors of several articles in the same vein, and I haven’t found anybody who’s actually seen the described block in the real world. I think MS is tossing up a trial balloon. Not sure why it erupted on Reddit, but it did, and a large percentage of all the Windows bloggers on earth repeated the accusation.

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    • #102080 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      What Subscription? “Couldn’t Microsoft strive for some middle ground, such as a disclaimer that there might be some incompatibility?” And then be obligated to support any issues caused by incompatibility for six years?

      They are BOUND to do it for the next year.

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    • #102084 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      I don’t understand why this is suddenly newsworthy (again) now. What part of Microsoft’s statement more than a year ago did people not understand?:

      “For example, Windows 10 will be the only supported Windows platform on Intel’s upcoming “Kaby Lake” silicon, Qualcomm’s upcoming “8996” silicon, and AMD’s upcoming “Bristol Ridge” silicon.”
      January 15, 2016

      Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #102093 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        Maybe they understand it but still just don’t think it’s right.

        -Noel

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #102103 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody_MVP

        I’ve already described the difference in detail in two posts above.

        “Not supported” means just that: they will not offer you support for doing whatever it is you’re talking about.  USB 3.0 is “not supported” on Windows 7.  If you want to use it anyway, you will have to locate and download a driver for your USB 3.0 chipset on your own, and you will have to get support (if you need it) from someone other than Microsoft.  That’s “not supported.”

        That’s not the extent of it, though.  MS has also told us that not only will MS not support this, but neither will AMD, Intel, or Qualcomm, which is in contrast to the interests of any of those chipmakers.  One would have to wonder why they would agree to this.  AMD, for one, looks like it has not, as Radosuaf has pointed out.

        The new news here is MS taking the extraordinary step of sabotaging running installations of Windows 7 on “unsupported” CPUs to further their agenda.  This is well beyond “not supported.”   Way, way beyond it.

        Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.5).

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #102115 Reply

          b
          AskWoody Plus

          It’s hardly sabotage when there was plenty of advance warning before the scenario was even possible.

          Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

          • #102134 Reply

            woody
            Da Boss

            I think @ascaris has nailed it. Much depends on what kind of support Microsoft is granting or withholding, and how.

            We still haven’t seen anything in action. At this point it’s all speculation.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #102137 Reply

              radosuaf
              AskWoody Lounger

              I think @ascaris has nailed it. Much depends on what kind of support Microsoft is granting or withholding, and how. We still haven’t seen anything in action. At this point it’s all speculation.

              Honestly, I don’t care too much about MS support – as long as device drivers are released (that would be graphics card mainly that need to be updated quite frequently, the rest I have drivers for and new ones are not necessary) and software supports 8.1, MS do not need to do me any service.

              I am just afraid this will be a back door for manufacturers or software developers to drop support for 7/8.1.

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      • #102113 Reply

        radosuaf
        AskWoody Lounger

        That is not really sticking to the agreement I made with Microsoft when I purchased my Windows 8.1 copy back in 2013, is it?

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        • #102119 Reply

          b
          AskWoody Plus

          Could you explain which part of your agreement has been violated? Was there a guarantee that it would be compatible with any yet-to-be-invented technology?

          Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

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          • #102204 Reply

            anonymous

            Maybe it was the part about updates. Every version of Windows has supplied updates untill the last day of EOL. As some have said, users will buy a computer expecting it to work. Are they really saying that unless you use Windows 10 we won’t update your computer? OEMs need to sell computers – it might just be that they will somehow get out of the stranglehold MS has on them. Windows 8.1 is supported until 2023.

            • #102649 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Plus

              The only warranty for updates in the licensing agreement is for one year from purchase date. If users buy a computer expecting it to work with an old OS and it doesn’t then they haven’t done sufficient research before purchasing.

              Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

            • #103005 Reply

              anonymous

              If that is so, their PR is rather confusing…experience suggests that they have always supplied updates until EOL. This was a kindness from what you are saying. Windows 8.1 is not an old os and will be (unless their PR changes again) supported until 2023. Or should users stick with old hardware in 2017,18,19,20,21,22 and 23…

      • #102132 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        Yes, but if you recall, the original statement from Microsoft banned Skylake processors as well. In March, MS softened its stance on Skylake.

        I think MS is testing the water, to see how many hackles they raise. The universe of Kaby Lake Win7 installations is not large. I bet they’re trying to gauge how much of a negative reaction kicks up.

        It bears repeating: I’ve tried and tried, and can’t find one single soul who’s had trouble applying any of the recent Win7 updates to a Kaby Lake or Ryzen processor.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #102107 Reply

      NetDef
      AskWoody_MVP

      I guess this is a reply in the negative:  we have several Kaby Lake workstations on Win 7 Pro and all of them took the patches released this week (March 2017) just fine.

      But . . .  they are all behind a WSUS server too. I do not know at this time if that makes any difference at all.

      On the off chance it might:  I would be looking hard at some of the recent optional patches to see if any of them might trigger this block.  We generally don’t sync those on our WSUS management servers.

      ~ Group "Weekend" ~

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      • #119479 Reply

        DAVe3283
        AskWoody Plus

        Bringing an older topic back, but I can confirm this. I just built a new Ryzen 7 system, installed Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit, joined it to my domain, and updated it through WSUS. No errors about the CPU, no problems installing updates. Everything runs great!

        So maybe not an option for most users, but you can run Windows 7 on Ryzen if you use WSUS to manage your updates. This makes a lot of sense, IMO, because Microsoft doesn’t want to make its enterprise customers mad.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #102110 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      I guess this is a reply in the negative: we have several Kaby Lake workstations on Win 7 Pro and all of them took the patches released this week (March 2017) just fine. But . . . they are all behind a WSUS server too. I do not know at this time if that makes any difference at all. On the off chance it might: I would be looking hard at some of the recent optional patches to see if any of them might trigger this block. We generally don’t sync those on our WSUS management servers.

      I’d be very glad if you kept us updated!

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    • #102120 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Other than measuring frame rate, it’s really hard to evaluate whether a version of Windows is faster on a given PC quantitatively. I’m not aware of any benchmark that performs this kind of test;

      You may try Cinebench R15 – it measures pure CPU performance.

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    • #102121 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Then again, what use is driver support if the OS can’t be updated? And if Office can’t be updated, etc…

      Look at the bright side, no worries on Patch Tuesdays as Woody will be writing “DEFCON-2, does not apply to KL or Ryzen” – that’s much better than fighting with Windows Update :D.

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    • #102126 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Does mainstream support mean “will be made to work with anything new which may come along”?

      More or less. If you bought a GeForce 1080 Ti graphic card for USD 699 and MS would block the updates on your Win10 because mainstream support does not mean “will be made to work with anything new which may come along” then I suppose you’d be OK with it?

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      • #102136 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        You both have a valid point. At what point do our reasonable expectations of usability become unreasonable? I’m not sure I can answer that.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #102142 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        I wouldn’t have bought it if I’d been warned a year ago that it wouldn’t be considered compatible with my OS of choice. But Windows 10 is the last Windows, so I should be OK.

        Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

        • #102220 Reply

          rc primak
          AskWoody_MVP

          This is similar to folks who buy a tablet or a phone, and it turns out the next OS version upgrade is not compatible with the hardware, beyond needing to update drivers. This has happened to iPhone and Android phone and tablet users for years. M$ is just playing catch-up if you accept this perspective.

          -- rc primak

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          b
        • #102221 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          I wouldn’t have bought it if I’d been warned a year ago that it wouldn’t be considered compatible with my OS of choice. But Windows 10 is the last Windows, so I should be OK.

          That’s what I did – I bought Skylake last week to be future-proof (oh irony, you buy older hardware to be future-proof – but looking at the “progress” Intel is making with their CPUs lately, it doesn’t really matter). If MS won’t change their minds AGAIN, I will be provided with support until 2023. But this is so against Bill Gates’ vision. Don’t know how old are you but I still remember Windows 95 lanuch I attended over 20 years ago. It was so exciting to see that “Plug and Play” concept in real life. As long as the manufacturer provides the driver, you just plug it in and it works. After years of being forced to use options provided by poor developers having to deal with endless sets of configurations (like you could have a great SVGA card capable of 1024×768 resolution, but the highest option in game was VGA – 320×200, 256 colours, you cold have any soundcard, provided it was Sound Blaster compatible – if no, no sound in games) we were given FREEDOM – we could use any “Windows compatible” hardware and don’t worry, softwre developers didn’t have to implement various hardware support, the could just focus on developing their software.

          For those office oriented, I remember how people were excited about WYSIWYG in Quattro Pro spreadsheet – and you got all this out-of-the box in Windows. For all applications. Amazing.

          Windows gave us freedom – now it forces updates, installs 3rd party bloatware, spies on us, shows ads here and there, blocks hardware support etc.

          Now it turns out that you can have a hardware producer (AMD) that officially releases W7 drivers on their website, but MS refuses to support it.

          I used to have lots against Windows (in the 98/XP days), I used to think Bill Gates is responsible for all the evil in the World. But is seems he indeed was a visionary the company really lacks at the moment. Without him basically everything there is just getting worse.

          Windows 10 is the last Windows? Probably, people will switch somewhere else. In EU where I live, Linux starts to be visible in the public sector. It just needs a little more push. IE6 was the only browser to have, right? Where is IE11/Edge now? 🙂

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          • #103222 Reply

            James Bond 007
            AskWoody Lounger

            That’s what I did – I bought Skylake last week to be future-proof (oh irony, you buy older hardware to be future-proof – but looking at the “progress” Intel is making with their CPUs lately, it doesn’t really matter).

            I build my X99 systems just to be “future-proof”, like you did with your Skylake purchase.

            The components were bought starting in January 2016, when Microsoft first announced that they would only support selected Skylake systems until July 2017 (they had since eaten their own words and promised support for Skylake systems until January 2020, as we all know). I was planning on building a Skylake system at that time but upon hearing this I immediately canceled the purchase plan. Subsequently I decided on X99 and i7 5820K/6800K since it is still fully supported on Windows 7 and Windows 8.1, and felt really like an upgrade comparing to my i7 2600K.

            If Microsoft decides to go ahead with this, then it is quite possible I will cancel my original plan of building a new AMD Ryzen system, and just stick with X99.

            Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

        • #102230 Reply

          satrow
          AskWoody MVP

          Were you warned a year ago?

          If so, how, ‘phone, snail mail, email, TV advert, … ?

    • #102129 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Could you explain which part of your agreement has been violated? Was there a guarantee that it would be compatible with any yet-to-be-invented technology?

      We obviously have a different understanding of “mainstream support”. But your understanding also means that whatever is released tomorrow, Windows 10 may not support it. If so, then I’ll go Linux, seriously.

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      • #102131 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        By the way, radosuaf, try hitting REPLY first, then QUOTE. That puts your responses in line with the posts you’re responding to.

        -Noel

        5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #102170 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        If you can buy a version of Linux which guarantees support for any and all new hardware for the next 10 years, then I think you should buy it. Any idea which one that would be?

        Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #102194 Reply

          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody_MVP

          b,

          We are not talking about some obscure pro sound card here, but a processor that could be sold to millions, something that people generally expected support for in the past versions of Windows.

          Ascaris made a very strong point by doing the distinction between just letting other companies provide drivers without providing support and actively breaking the OS for those who uses these processors even if drivers were provided. The fact that it is contrary to the interest of those companies to not provide drivers for 7 when it is still so much used is at least a bit uncomfortable and can make us question the hidden motives as it makes no sense. Yes, 7 is out in less than three years, but Intel gets out new processor every year and I doubt they would say let’s skip selling processors for two years and a few months because it is not that long. Let’s complain about the decline of the PC instead.

          I said it before and I think I will be proven right, I updated my 8 stations to 10 as I am sure Microsoft will not honor their implicit agreement with their users considering the small market of 8 and the huge incentive for them to have nobody not on 10, especially once 7 is out of support. You might try to say how fair it is, but I doubt you will be very convincing to a lot of people. If you tell me you find it fair because there was a free offer to get on 10, then I will respond that MS should then at least offer that again to all 8 customers when 7 is out. Not costly and more friendly. But they didn’t with Vista when support from Adobe stopped even before XP. Was it that hard to reward your early adopters of the beta version of 7 by offering them a free upgrade once the market shrunked so bad because, for the same reason as 8, MS made an OS that was intensely disliked?

          You can love Windows 10, you can think there is no problem with it, but that doesn’t mean it should be aggressively pushed like that.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #102203 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Plus

            b,

            We are not talking about some obscure pro sound card here, but a processor that could be sold to millions, something that people generally expected support for in the past versions of Windows.

            But will it be sold to millions who want to run Windows 7 on it?

            I said it before and I think I will be proven right, I updated my 8 stations to 10 as I am sure Microsoft will not honor their implicit agreement with their users considering the small market of 8 and the huge incentive for them to have nobody not on 10, especially once 7 is out of support. You might try to say how fair it is, but I doubt you will be very convincing to a lot of people.

            I don’t think most people care about this issue at all, because they get the latest version of Windows when they buy a new machine.

            You can love Windows 10, you can think there is no problem with it, but that doesn’t mean it should be aggressively pushed like that.

            I just think Windows 10 is better than any previous version in many ways (and I’ve used and supported Windows 7 and Windows 8/8.1 a great deal). But there are a few aspects of it where I could be extremely critical of Microsoft; e.g. documentation, help files/sites and error messages etc.

            Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #102205 Reply

              AlexEiffel
              AskWoody_MVP

              Ok i haven’t been clear about the 8 issue. It is different. I mesnt thst the way I think they actively try to move people away from 7 with the processors situation does not look good for people who will still be using 8.1 in 2020, not the ones who buy new computers.

              Maybe you are right not that many people will buy new hardware to run 7, especially for gaming.

              I appreciate your last paragraph and I can understand that someone who doesn’t care about some of the annoyances perceived by others finds Windows 10 great because it is in many ways.

        • #102222 Reply

          rc primak
          AskWoody_MVP

          If you can buy a version of Linux which guarantees support for any and all new hardware for the next 10 years, then I think you should buy it. Any idea which one that would be?

          First, you don’t buy most Linux distros. They are free and open source (FOSS).

          To the point, Ubuntu on my old laptop kept supporting the Intel-NVidia hybrid graphics hardware from at least 2010 until about 2021, if I would have stayed with Ubuntu 16.04 LTS (supported for five years) and never upgraded the Linux kernel beyond version 4.8 (version 4.4 is standard issue for Ubuntu 16.04 LTS). So most Linux distros do support even aging hardware for about ten years, all told. Some developers and third parties can extend support even longer, but this gets pretty dodgy after only five years or so.

          Except for Miracast and a few very recent graphics cards, Ubuntu 16.04 and 16.10 have kept up with new hardware for as it has come out. Which is remarkable, considering the lack of cooperation from many vendors. Ubuntu 14.04 and even 12.04 are still in use by some folks, and have proven adaptable to most newer hardware as it has come out.

          So Linux does meet your expectations, if properly cared for, and with a good selection of distro, not just the “flavor of the month”.  And it does so for free.

          -- rc primak

          3 users thanked author for this post.
          • #102242 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Plus

            No guarantee then, if it’s free? Especially for new graphics cards?

            Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

            • #102457 Reply

              rc primak
              AskWoody_MVP

              Better than the reports about Kaby Lake and Windows 7 or 8, is all I was saying.

              No heterogeneous hardware ecosystem (as opposed to the homogeneous ecosystems of MacOS and iOS for Apple) can insure that all future hardware will be supportable on the current OS.

              But at least Linux so far has not refused to install and run on otherwise compatible hardware, just because the Linux version is older than the latest current versions.

              Which is what the discussion in this thread is really about.

              Linux drivers have continued to be updated for newer chipsets even for older OS versions on these newer chipsets. In fact, kernel 4.9 (with Kaby Lake Intel microcode patches) runs on Ubuntu 14.04, as far as I know. With any available OS updates (and there are some even for Ubuntu 14.04 from time to time). I just would not stick with a Ubuntu version which is out of mainstream support.

              -- rc primak

    • #102147 Reply

      Bill C.
      AskWoody Plus

      Things will change once the hardware manufacturers start losing business from people willingly not buying their stuff because of these strong arm tactics. “The tighter you grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.” – Princes Leia

      I would love to think this is true, but the average user who uses a PC like an appliance is not going to willingly decide to not buy given hardware, since it is the OS that is the interface with the hardware. The alternatives are Windows, Apple with MacOS – a reliable operating system on average hardware but way more expensive, Chromebooks with ChromeOS (limited for many), and the varieties of Linux (perceieved by many to the domain of geeks and hackers. 

      These users (except for maybe gamers and hobbyists) just want a PC to work when it is turned on and gives them the software they need, or it is easily available for their needs, supports their devices and peripherals, AND is compatible with the software that ships with their devices and peripherals They want software that downloads, installs and runs immediately. Many devices are supported under Linux, but you will not find a CD of Linux drivers in the box.  Instead you need to hunt it out on the manufacturers website of search repositories and forums.  I view that as common and popular as new car buyers asking the dealer if the oil filter is user accessible for doing your own oil changes.

      Many do not care about snooping and are more than willing to adapt and invite “strangers into our house” a/k/a spies like Siri, Alexa, and Cortanas and then for convenience allow them to listen and send their conversations to the mothership in the void.for analysis or recognition

      Keep in mind it was only a year or so ago that the tech sites were filled with news that Intel was going to abandon the DIY market and discontinue enthusiast CPUs for home and boutique builders. It will only be when governments and major corporations with 10s of thousands of PCs decide to abandon MS and/or WinTel that they maight change However, I suspect it will still be the same, the Enterprise will get some tools and the masses will remain the “tools” or beta testers

      Sorry for the negative outlook, but I see no real backlash in the consumer marketplace.  To be meaningful, it will have to be the enterprise who resists.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #103869 Reply

        anonymous

        “These users (except for maybe gamers and hobbyists) just want a PC to work when it is turned on and gives them the software they need, or it is easily available for their needs, supports their devices and peripherals, AND is compatible with the software that ships with their devices and peripherals They want software that downloads, installs and runs immediately. Many devices are supported under Linux, but you will not find a CD of Linux drivers in the box.  Instead you need to hunt it out on the manufacturers website of search repositories and forums.”

        This actually isn’t accurate.  Many modern linux distros include a software manager that pulls all of the drivers for your specific system from linux respositories, in addition to providing an extremely lengthy and myriad selection of system compatible desirable software packages.  In fact, this model is better than windows, since you don’t even need to know, for example, if your system is 64bit or 32bit.  The software manager knows.  And it only pulls in the appropriate drivers and software for your system.  And, yes, it “downloads, installs and runs immediately.”

        One less excuse for not switching to linux batted away….

        🙂

         

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #103880 Reply

          Bill C.
          AskWoody Plus

          You misunderstood my comment. It was NOT an excuse not to use Linux as I have done this and am using Linux and set up others. It was a caution for average Windows users to do homework and test. Most of the non-techie types I know are unfamiliar with even creating the live media for an install.

          However, if a person who is not a techie tried an install Linux, (which as you say is easy) it is not until after the boot where you might find the feature/peripheral/applet did not work. That is when the “fun” begins. I have known users of Linux that did not find out the sound was not working, until they tried to ply music weeks later.

          If your peripheral is not supported in a given distro, and I know many scanners in AIO printers are problematic, even though the fax and printer work, you need to hunt and tweak or use another printer driver that may work.

          The software managers have come a long way, but there still are some gaps and the odd items that is not supported. Most folks are not even comfortable or familiar with live media testing to assist them in picking a distro.

          The issue is not the lack of capability in the Linux distros, it is the lack of capability in the end users who do not WANT to be a techie. They just want something to work. Personally I believe if they sat down at a Linux machine they would be converted. However, I do not think they would want to go out and do a PC build or become a command line wizard. Telling your average ‘appliance PC’ user to go into the command prompt in Windows almost causes brain lock.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #103908 Reply

            lizzytish
            AskWoody Lounger

            Good descriptions @ BillC & @ Anon about Linux distros and informative!

            Telling your average ‘appliance PC’ user to go into the command prompt in Windows almost causes brain lock.

            The above quote was a remark that I really could relate to. You know really we’ve been ‘potty’ trained and brought up by MS over these years gone by…… with all the ‘easy’ way of doing things with a pretty GUI to help us along and do things in ‘plain-speak’ and it certainly didn’t help us and teach us to dig deep and use the Command interface with Windows. If the opposite had happened, most of us would probably have found the transition to something like Linux a lot easier. Also a lot of us (and I’m referring to us all non-techy types) don’t particularly want to get too deep into all this…….. we want simplicity and ease so that we can go about what we originally bought our computers for. Besides the browsing and email part of it……… there are other areas that some of us are involved in and do well………… and that is what we want to spend our time doing. However, that said……. we are all in this boat together because we are like minded in our perception of what we feel is suitable, and fair, and honest, and acceptable, and just, to us, the END USER… and unfortunately not only is Windows 10 a bad proposition, but Microsoft is too. And sadly it doesn’t look as though they are going to change anytime soon.

            Regarding MS’ big push for Win10. I was browsing on a newspaper site yesterday where I had disabled one of the adblockers I have (a few days or a week before all this)…….. and found a popup window in front of me asking me to take a survey about Windows 10……. 4 questions……. when would I be upgrading to Win 10 and giving me 4 choices……… like this year, next year, etc. I then saw an ad on the right side about windows 10. I have never seen that on a respectable newspaper website before…. ever! I simple enabled my adblocker……… and refreshed the page and it was gone! Let me also say that it has only been recently that I’ve used adblockers so I’m aware of most of the ads that appear on these sort of sites. So to me this advertising MS has adopted is a new concept to try and entice/tempt users to change.
            Just my 2 bits! LT

            I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. I can’t put it down

            3 users thanked author for this post.
          • #103927 Reply

            anonymous

            I was not suggesting that this was your specific “excuse.”  But it is one of the common misunderstandings regarding the current state of linux distros that *is* frequently cited by people as a reason not to try linux.  And while, yes, there are periodic gaps in driver access from the software manager.  In my experience those gaps are very infrequent.  And it’s worth noting that those same gaps exist in windows and always have.  I bought a new laser printer about 9 months ago and I had to do a little hunting online to find the right printer driver for my windows 7 desktop.  And I needed to know basic system info regarding my windows system to ascertain which was the right driver.  Ironically, my linux mint software manager yielded both the correct proprietary driver and the generic linux version.  No command line interaction was required at all.

            I’m not suggesting that there is no learning curve with linux and that making that transition from windows is all rainbows and unicorns.  But it also isn’t the bleak, barren command line wasteland that many folks have been led to believe.  Don’t kid yourself.  For the majority of run-of-the-mill PC users, windows itself is incredibly complicated.  It is why these types of sites and blogs have proliferated for decades, because the average user doesn’t know how her/his system works and they possessed neither the knowledge nor the inclination to learn how to muck about with registry settings or the dos/command line interface.  So they would come to these sites and happily follow line-by-line directions for tweaking various settings to make their PC experience safer and/or more satisfying to use.

            And in the past 18 months or so, even larger numbers of people have come to these sites in response to the GWX and telemetry nonsense.  And those same people have delved into altering their windows operating systems at a level of detail they’d never dreamed of doing previously.  And my point is that this level of involvement is just as, and potentially more, detailed and complicated as what is required to setup and operate a current linux distribution.  And reinforcing the incorrect notion that linux is substantially more complicated and onerous than what they’ve had to learn and do with their windows systems does those people a great disservice.

            3 users thanked author for this post.
            • #103935 Reply

              lizzytish
              AskWoody Lounger

              From my point of view…….. I wasn’t comparing the complexities of the two OS’…….. rather that in moving/using Linux it would be a big change as most of us have become so accustomed to Windows…..and especially the command line in Linux, where far more is done than in Windows generally it appears. I’ve got Linux Mint/Cinnamon/Sarah on Virtual Box on an external and have been playing with it. I originally gave myself 4 years to become acquainted with it…… being the time when support for Win7 will end. But with the way things seem to be heading it may be sooner than later!
              To tell the truth I have never, ever had to deal with or replace drivers. I have a very healthy respect for things under the hood. I don’t touch usually….. and then with great caution!
              So my admiration and amazement in how all you tech guys and gals work things out…. is right up there!!!! And it’s v. comforting to hear all of you speak with your differing views and judgements. Don’t get me wrong……. over the years my knowledge/learning of things both with the web and computers has grown by leaps and bounds as possibly most of us. We’ve grasped the essentials and adjusted things for ourselves both in the privacy and security areas without too much trouble. The fact that those that are here and not IT professionals shows that their degree of expertise is up there…….. say 50 to 70%….

              But I guess it’s horses for courses…… we are all good at something…… and it’s nice to be in an environment with so many different modalities where we can all learn from each other! After all that was the intended vision for THE BIG WWW. LT

              2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #103882 Reply

          Microfix
          Da Boss

          And some distros will allow you to install on one machine and then swap out the installed distro HDD/SSD into a completely different hardware/motherboard machine and all will work as intended, without any internet access or updating. 🙂

          Win7 Pro x64 | Win8.1 Pro x64 | Linux Hybrids x64 | W10 x86 1909
          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #102165 Reply

      MW
      AskWoody Plus

      It is my understanding that Microsoft sells operating systems. Companies like Intel, Realtek, Atheros, Nividia, ect.., supply drivers for the components they sell to the motherboard manufacturers, or the components they sell to consumers.

      I have never gotten a driver from Microsoft. I either get them from the Mobo manufacturer or the component supplier directly.

      It seems it is up to the aforementioned companies, not Microsoft, whether an OS is “supported” for a given CPU.

      The issues seams to be whether or not Microsoft will supply the updates for W8.1 and W7 to users who wish to install their OS on a Kaby Lake system.

      I have 4 different chip series in mine and my families computers. Sandy Bridge, Haswell, Skylake and an old laptop with the GL40 mobile chipset. They all use the same security updates.

      There might be a few variations, I really don’t know. I am not inclined to compare all 100+ security updates across all the machines to find out.

      Microsoft’s update catalogue never asked me what CPU the update is for. Only if it was a 32 or 64 bit system. This leads me to believe that the updates are CPU agnostic. Correct me if I’m wrong. If so, what makes Kaby Lake different?

      Some have already stated they have W7 on a Kaby Lake system, with updates. So it appears this “support” issue is something else.

      Microsoft supports its OS, not hardware.

      To me, Microsoft saying they won’t “support” a certain CPU is code speak for we will deprive you of updates for your OS because you won’t switch to W10.

      It seams Microsoft will begin to start going out of their way to deliberately prevent updates from being available to an OS-CPU combo they don’t like. They will spend money and resources to sabotage W7 and 8.1 users instead of using the effort to stop issuing updates that break things.

      W7 & W8.1 - Group W (since April 2017)
      Mac Sierra & Mojave - Group A
      Mint Cinnamon - Group A

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #102167 Reply

      MW
      AskWoody Plus

      It is my understanding that Microsoft sells operating systems. Companies like Intel, Realtek, Atheros, Nividia, ect.., supply drivers for the components they sell to the motherboard manufacturers, or the components they sell to consumers.

      I have never gotten a driver from Microsoft. I either get them from the Mobo manufacturer or the component supplier directly.

      It seems it is up to the aforementioned companies, not Microsoft, whether an OS is “supported” for a given CPU.

      The issues seams to be whether or not Microsoft will supply the updates for W8.1 and W7 to users who wish to install their OS on a Kaby Lake system.

      I have 4 different chip series in mine and my families computers. Sandy Bridge, Haswell, Skylake and an old laptop with the GL40 mobile chipset. They all use the same security updates.

      There might be a few variations, I really don’t know. I am not inclined to compare all 100+ security updates across all the machines to find out.

      Microsoft’s update catalogue never asked me what CPU the update is for. Only if it was a 32 or 64 bit system. This leads me to believe that the updates are CPU agnostic. Correct me if I’m wrong. If so, what makes Kaby Lake different?

      Some have already stated they have W7 on a Kaby Lake system, with updates. So it appears this “support” issue is something else.

      Microsoft supports its OS, not hardware.

      To me, Microsoft saying they won’t “support” a certain CPU is code speak for we will deprive you of updates for your OS because you won’t switch to W10.

      It seams Microsoft will begin to start going out of their way to deliberately prevent updates from being available to an OS-CPU combo they don’t like. They will spend money and resources to sabotage W7 and 8.1 users instead of using the effort to stop issuing updates that break things.

      W7 & W8.1 - Group W (since April 2017)
      Mac Sierra & Mojave - Group A
      Mint Cinnamon - Group A

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #102231 Reply

      tbsky
      AskWoody Lounger

      As for Windows 8.1, while it is still under mainstream support its market share is so small it’s not worth the effort on the part of Microsoft and CPU makers to support it.

      Maybe it should be stated in MS license – we provide 5 years mainstream support IF we decide it’s worth it. If not, then go …. yourself.

      maybe they already said that in the license book. I need to check it again since the book is re-written often.

    • #102234 Reply

      tbsky
      AskWoody Lounger

      If you can buy a version of Linux which guarantees support for any and all new hardware for the next 10 years, then I think you should buy it. Any idea which one that would be?

      that would be RHEL, which has 10 years support and can be extended to more years. it won’t support all new hardware, but I think it will not drop cpu which can be supported.

      by the way, I still often use MS-DOS. sometime new motherboard can not pxe boot to MS-DOS. when  I ask vendor (gigabyte) to fix it, their response are always positive and will fix it soon.

    • #102254 Reply

      BrianL
      AskWoody Lounger

      What is the percentage of home computer users compared to mass business users? What I am asking is the number of home units to the number of business units? Then you have each home has at least two units. Business’ might have one per employee and maybe not but the not does that have at least one at home.

    • #102253 Reply

      anonymous

      Considering that the W10 Cabal is doubling down on W10 only for Kaby Lake and Ryzen, how will this policy be applied to W10 going forward? The 2015-2025 life cycle for W10 will be end of life in 2025. The 2025-2035 W10 life cycle will then follow.

      If I buy a new Windows laptop in 2020 to replace my W7 laptop, it will come with W10, but even though it will be the latest W10 silicon, support will be tied to the 2015-2025 W10 life cycle. In 2020 it will start under extended support with no mainstream support at all. Even worse, if it was W8, it would only get 2 years of extended support.

      I’d have to buy new silicon in 2025 if the W10 Cabal sticks with the current support policy.

      W10 may be forever, but as far as life cycle support goes, it is still the old 10 year life cycle strategy. The license entitlement is tied to the originating hardware on which the OS was installed.

      Do I have this wrong?

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #102463 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        Windows support and device support are two different things.

        http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-commits-to-10-year-support-lifecycle-for-windows-10/

         

        A note to that policy qualifies the support commitment to devices where the OEM continues to support Windows 10 on that device.

        So you see, Windows 10 support is dependent not just on Microsoft’s ten-year commitment to OS and updates support, but also on the device manufacturer’s willingness to continue to support that device for Windows 10. Device life cycles range from two years for phones and tablets to over five years for high-end laptops and desktops.

        -- rc primak

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #102263 Reply

      BrianL
      AskWoody Lounger

      To anonymous: Does not Micresoft have the right to extend any thing that they want to just by keystroke? i don’t have Kaby Lake or Ryzen but I have had use of Intell and AMD. I have noticed in reading different forums that the top CPU makers and their subsidiaries have joined in an agreement to NOT allow any windows 7, 8.1 to operate on any CPU’s after February 2017. The list of agreement takers just gets bigger. Just little bits at a time, picking away at our operating systems until we will have no choice but to go strictly with Windows 10. When that time comes, MS can pull out all stops and control us!!!

    • #102266 Reply

      BrianL
      AskWoody Lounger

      @ anonymous , MS can extend the life and support of anything they wish to. Nothing is TIED down to the now existing agreements with us as users.

      • #102304 Reply

        anonymous

        to all – just a suggestion

        to reply to specific anonymous
        you can click on REPLY and mention the comment no. right after
        ie. this one is #102266
        and assuming BrainL was replying to anon #102253

        have a good wkend ahead

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #102316 Reply

      walker
      AskWoody Lounger

      Here is a link I posted, however it was to a “reply”, so I’m posting it again, in the event that it may not have been seen by everyone:

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/ianmorris/2017/03/17/microsoft-admits-forcing-more-users-onto-windows-10/#1b85e95f780f

      Quite a lot of information on this.

       

       

       

    • #102317 Reply

      anonymous

      If I had W7 today, I would not purchase a Windows laptop in 2020 unless it was under $400. I’d stay with a brand name, like HP, Acer, ASUS or Dell. Five years of extended support will keep the little critter operational and relatively safe. Also I’d not buy a new W10 laptop in 2023 to replace a W8 system. It would be better to run W8 on the old technology as Group C well into 2025.

      I think the ‘W10 Cabal’ may come up with a new support policy for W10 in 2025. I’ll hazard it a guess and go with 5 years mainstream support for Home and Pro only, with no more extended support.

      MS has always recommended that Enterprises adopt the 10 year horizon with hardware/OS acquisitions, so I can not see that changing unless WaaS and the cloud offers up something a lot more credible than is currently proposed.

      By 2035 none of this may have any relevance at all.

      • #102392 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        If I had W7 today, I would not purchase a Windows laptop in 2020 unless it was under $400.

        I have a sneaky suspicion that by 2020 to 2022, at the latest, Windows as we know it will be irrelevant.

        • #102416 Reply

          b
          AskWoody Plus

          I’ll make a date on my calendar to quote you on that in 2023!

          (Will THAT be year of the Linux desktop, just 25 years late?)

          Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

          • #102426 Reply

            woody
            Da Boss

            HA!

            I don’t think it’ll be Linux. I think most all of us will migrate to something else by then. Not sure what, though.

            • #102458 Reply

              ch100
              AskWoody_MVP

              I don’t think it’ll be Linux. I think most all of us will migrate to something else by then. Not sure what, though.

              It has a current name and is called Windows 10 Cloud 🙂

            • #102490 Reply

              woody
              Da Boss

              That’s entirely possible.

              I see Windows turning into a “thin client” operating system. Windows Cloud is likely the direction MS wants to take with all of us. Of course, the devil’s in the details.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #102512 Reply

              anonymous

              Not for consumers. Your head is in the Enterprise Cloud.

              Google is the only vendor offering consumers a cloud presence, i.e. Chromebooks.

              Microsoft threw out the W10 Cloud bone which has not been followed up. Why? They do not know their customers, they do not want to know their customers, They do not have customers, they want drones.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #102468 Reply

              Ascaris
              AskWoody_MVP

              I have a sneaky suspicion that by 2020 to 2022, at the latest, Windows as we know it will be irrelevant.

              Does that sound as bleak to you as it does to me?

               

              Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.5).

            • #102519 Reply

              Noel Carboni
              AskWoody_MVP

              Does that sound as bleak to you as it does to me?

              Having had something newer and actually better coming out continuously for my entire 40 year high tech career so far, I’d say so, yes.

              Now it looks like the only thing left might be Unix and its derivatives, which I have always had a hard time thinking are better.

              Will a company step in and make something newer and actually better to fill the vacuum left by Windows? Or will the world just use Unix/Linux to develop things from now on?

              -Noel

      • #102465 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        By 2035, I may be nearing the end of my life cycle! 🙂

        -- rc primak

        • #102491 Reply

          woody
          Da Boss

          Gack! Me, too….

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #103224 Reply

          James Bond 007
          AskWoody Lounger

          By 2035, I may be nearing the end of my life cycle!

          Ditto. I have no idea if I will live that long…

          Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

        • #103339 Reply

          lizzytish
          AskWoody Lounger

          I read something that I saved from an article I was reading earlier somewhere else……… which
          fits in perfectly with what you just said………..

          “Anyone can get a life.

          Anyone can lose it

          But who will dare to inhabit the thing

          And USE it ?…..

          ..Worn in , bashed in, cried in,

          And the great thing –

          A lived in life

          Can be happily died in…”

          2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #102401 Reply

      MW
      AskWoody Plus

      Asus, Asrock, Gigabyte and MSI are all providing W7 & W8.1 drivers for their Mobo’s, for both Kaby Lake and Ryzen.

      I think this is turning out to be a lot of grief over nothing.  It seems the market forces have already spoken, and with everybody but Microsoft is supporting W7 & W8.1 on these new systems, it will be interesting to see how Microsoft responds.

      Will they really be that petty and vindictive…

      W7 & W8.1 - Group W (since April 2017)
      Mac Sierra & Mojave - Group A
      Mint Cinnamon - Group A

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #103227 Reply

        James Bond 007
        AskWoody Lounger

        Asus, Asrock, Gigabyte and MSI are all providing W7 and W8.1 drivers for their Mobo’s, for both Kaby Lake and Ryzen.

        I think this is turning out to be a lot of grief over nothing. It seems the market forces have already spoken, and with everybody but Microsoft is supporting W7 and W8.1 on these new systems, it will be interesting to see how Microsoft responds.

        Will they really be that petty and vindictive…

        I just checked 2 X370 motherboards (Ryzen), one Gigabyte (GA-X370-Gaming 5) and one Asus (Prime X370-Pro) on their websites :

        http://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-AX370-Gaming-5-rev-10#support-dl
        https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/PRIME-X370-PRO/HelpDesk_Download/

        The Gigabyte motherboard has full drivers support for Windows 7, but only audio drivers for Windows 8.1 (no chipset, no LAN).

        The Asus motherboard has drivers support for Windows 7 64 bit (strangely, no LAN), and no drivers support for Windows 8.1.

        For the Kaby Lake side, I also checked 2 Z270 motherboards, one Gigabyte (GA-Z70X-Gaming 7), one Asus (ROG Strix Z270E Gaming), and it seems to me that both motherboards have full drivers support for Windows 7 and Windows 8.1.

        Have not checked ASRock and MSI at this moment.

        One thing to note, you can use a Kaby Lake motherboard (say a Z270) with a Skylake CPU (say i7 6700K) and you can have full updates support under Windows 7 and Windows 8.1.

        So it seems to me that for Ryzen, you should be able to use Windows 7 with full drivers support, but Windows 8.1, well, not so much.

        Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

      • #103232 Reply

        James Bond 007
        AskWoody Lounger

        Asus, Asrock, Gigabyte and MSI are all providing W7 & W8.1 drivers for their Mobo’s, for both Kaby Lake and Ryzen.

        I think this is turning out to be a lot of grief over nothing. It seems the market forces have already spoken, and with everybody but Microsoft is supporting W7 & W8.1 on these new systems, it will be interesting to see how Microsoft responds.

        Will they really be that petty and vindictive…

        Just checked 2 X370 motherboards, one Gigabyte (GA-AX370-Gaming 5) and one Asus (Prime X370-Pro) on their websites:

        http://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-AX370-Gaming-5-rev-10#support-dl
        https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/PRIME-X370-PRO/HelpDesk_Download/

        The Gigabyte motherboard has full drivers support for Windows 7, but only audio drivers for 8.1 (no chipset, no LAN). The Asus motherboard has drivers support for Windows 7 64 bit (but strangely no LAN), and no drivers for Windows 8.1.

        For the Kaby Lake side, I also checked 2 motherboards, Gigabyte GA-Z70X-Gaming 7, and Asus Strix Z270E Gaming, and both have full drivers support for Windows 7 and Windows 8.1.

        One thing to note : You can use a Kaby Lake motherboard (say a Z270) with a Skylake CPU (say i7 6700K) and there should be full updates support for Windows 7 and 8.1.

        So it seems to me that for Ryzen, you should be able to use Windows 7 (in some cases 64 bit only) with drivers support, but not so much with Windows 8.1 as drivers may not be provided.

        Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

    • #102433 Reply

      satrow
      AskWoody MVP

      Up to date – or keeps changing? So you missed those emails?

      • #102434 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        Both?

        That’s silly; who could have received “those” emails? All prospective customers?

        Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

        • #102436 Reply

          satrow
          AskWoody MVP

          Sillier than you implying that you having received an email last year should mean that everyone else would also be aware of those changes?

          • #102439 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Plus

            Much sillier.

            Microsoft posted an announcement on their Windows blog which was covered by thousands of sites (and newsletters) around the globe:

            https://www.bing.com/search?q=https%3a%2f%2fblogs.windows.com%2fwindowsexperience%2f2016%2f01%2f15%2fwindows-10-embracing-silicon-innovation

            Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

            • #102440 Reply

              satrow
              AskWoody MVP

              And how many Windows users do you personally know that read the article? Was it a common topic wherever you socialise, did it reach newspaper headline status, billboards, free to air TV?

              Yet MS already have functional methods to pass on these useful snippets via pathways built in to their software.

            • #102450 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Plus

              How many Windows 7/8 users do you know personally who really care about this issue in practice? (There hardly seem to be any even at overclockers.com.)

              What percentage of Windows 7/8 users do you estimate would ever be affected by this policy restriction? My guess is less than 1%.

              I’m sure the other 99% would just love extra popup notifications in Windows about obscure technobabble.

              Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

            • #102467 Reply

              satrow
              AskWoody MVP

              Less than 1% or not, do you think it’s right that MS should block updates for current licensed Windows versions because it’s running on recent x86/64 CPUs?

              A deviation away from previous practices and original transferable licensing terms isn’t what I’d call technobabble when it’s likely to impact user choice for no valid technical reason. Had MS extended the free upgrade to those buyers/potential buyers of the more recent hardware releases, there’d be less of an issue around it for those who want, or can afford, to move to W10.

            • #102654 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Plus

              It’s not contrary to any licensing terms.

              The free upgrade is still available, as pointed out by articles linked above.

              Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

            • #103288 Reply

              anonymous

              Reply #102439 Am I thinking right or not, but I seem to remember a scene in the “Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy” movie where Earth was tagged for destruction and the plans were “available” for all those who were interested in objecting, only they were buried down in some dungeon or hole. There appears to be some synergy with what @b is saying that Microsoft did and what I remember of the (may I say great) movie. Sadly I do not think this scenario (W10) will have a similar happy ending. Just a thought.

            • #102469 Reply

              radosuaf
              AskWoody Lounger

              Much sillier. Microsoft posted an announcement on their Windows blog which was covered by thousands of sites (and newsletters) around the globe.

              If this technique is so successful, then why MS didn’t implement this to upgrade people to Windows 10, but used GWX instead? 🙂

              MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
            • #102641 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Plus

              Because “free upgrade” is easier to explain than “you won’t be able to do X if you do Y or Z”, and also more acceptable and interesting to most people.

              Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

            • #102647 Reply

              radosuaf
              AskWoody Lounger

              Because “free upgrade” is easier to explain than “you won’t be able to do X if you do Y or Z”, and also more acceptable and interesting to most people.

              Yeah, we both know how enthusiastic people were about GWX :).

              MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
            • #102651 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Plus

              You don’t think a lot of people opted for the free upgrade out of choice? I’ve known many who did.

              Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

    • #102470 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      HA! I don’t think it’ll be Linux. I think most all of us will migrate to something else by then. Not sure what, though.

      After having tried Ubuntu 16.04 yesterday – I can say Linux is still not even close to Windows.

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
      • #102473 Reply

        Microfix
        Da Boss

        Tried W10 over a longer period than a day and concluded it’s corporate malware, not even close to linux.

        Win7 Pro x64 | Win8.1 Pro x64 | Linux Hybrids x64 | W10 x86 1909
        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #102477 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          Tried W10 over a longer period than a day and concluded it’s corporate malware, not even close to linux.

          OK, when I say Windows by no means I am saying “Windows 10”. Windows for me is 7/8.1 currently :).

          Maybe I’ll give Mint Cinnamon a shot. Ubuntu is just far behind in terms of user-friendliness compared to 7/8.1.

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #102471 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      What percentage of Windows 7/8 users do you estimate would ever be affected by this policy restriction? My guess is less than 1%.

      You assume 99% of current 8.1 users (if they stayed on 8.1 until now, they want to stay on 8.1) won’t be upgrading their hardware within next 6 years?! You’re not being serious, are you?

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
      • #102530 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        Most will get Windows 10 with a new computer and use it. You assume that everyone still on Windows 7/8 wants to stay there for some reason, which ignores most enterprise users.

        Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

        • #102544 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          enterprise

          Guess what – I got my Lenovo T460s with W10 out-of-the-box. I was downgraded to 8.1 within a week because (luckily) it turned out it’s not compatible with some of our company software. So yes, enterprises, and probably mostly enterprises, will be interested in being able to run 7 or 8.1 on new hardware.

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
          • #102656 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Plus

            I’m intrigued by what software would be compatible with Windows 8.1 but not Windows 10. I don’t believe many enterprises will want to run 7 or 8.1 on new hardware. Have you seen how many jobs in most areas of the world now require Windows 10 experience?

            Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

            • #102664 Reply

              radosuaf
              AskWoody Lounger

              I’m intrigued by what software would be compatible with Windows 8.1 but not Windows 10. I don’t believe many enterprises will want to run 7 or 8.1 on new hardware. Have you seen how many jobs in most areas of the world now require Windows 10 experience?

              Tagetik. It’s more about Office 2013/2016 but luckily system images at my company arfe W10 + Office 2016 and W8.1 + Office 2013.

              Enterprises don’t really care if hardware is new or old – they care abou software compatibility – and you’d rather see companies sticking to 7 on new hardware if it works than migrating old computers to 10 to have “the newest and the latest”.

              What is “Windows 10 experience”? From an end user perspective it’s still Windows – no matter if it’s XP, Vista, 7, 8.1 or 10. You gain “experience” to do basic stuff within 10 minutes.

              MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
            • #102672 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Plus

              Tagetik. It’s more about Office 2013/2016 but luckily system images at my company arfe W10 + Office 2016 and W8.1 + Office 2013.

              Bummer. You lose out twice. 😉

              Enterprises don’t really care if hardware is new or old – they care abou software compatibility – and you’d rather see companies sticking to 7 on new hardware if it works than migrating old computers to 10 to have “the newest and the latest”.

              Strange alternatives. Common choice would be 10 when new.

              What is “Windows 10 experience”? From an end user perspective it’s still Windows – no matter if it’s XP, Vista, 7, 8.1 or 10. You gain “experience” to do basic stuff within 10 minutes.

              I was mainly talking about technical support jobs, but I have seen Windows 10 experience for others too:

              https://www.monster.com/jobs/search/?q=__22Windows-10__22

              Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

    • #102994 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      What an interesting find today:

      NVIDIA is not supporting their latest graphic cards (Pascal) on Windows 10 1507 (you need to have at least 1511), so if you use first LTSB for some reason and want to use new graphic card (I know, quite unlikely), you have to upgrade :).

      https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/982630/windows-10-ltsb-2015-vs-windows-10-ltsb-2016/

      Of course, I don’t have to mention that 2009 Windows 7 is supported. So much for last Windows ever :).

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #103087 Reply

      anonymous

      From https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/patch-tuesday-just-hit/#post-103082:

      ‘An interesting item in the rollup previews for Win 7 and 8.1 released today:

      “Enabled detection of processor generation and hardware support when PC tries to scan or download updates through Windows Update.”’

    • #103142 Reply

      dave1977nj
      AskWoody Lounger

      March, 2017 Preview of Monthly Quality Rollup for Windows 7 for x64-based Systems (KB4012218)

      This update killed my updates for Windows 7. I have a Kaby Lake Processor and now I can not get anymore windows updates. Please see my screenshots attached.

      Is there any work around for this?

      Thank you

      Attachments:
      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #103147 Reply

        radosuaf
        AskWoody Lounger

        Is there any work around for this? Thank you

        Uninstall the preview rollup. You will have to install security only updates manually from now on, I guess.

        MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
        • #103152 Reply

          woody
          Da Boss

          I’d be very interested in hearing if that fixes the problem.

          Yikes!

      • #103172 Reply

        NetDef
        AskWoody_MVP

        March, 2017 Preview of Monthly Quality Rollup for Windows 7 for x64-based Systems (KB4012218) This update killed my updates for Windows 7. I have a Kaby Lake Processor and now I can not get anymore windows updates. Please see my screenshots attached. Is there any work around for this? Thank you

        Would you be willing to post a screen of your recent updates list?  I need at least this most recent batch that your system installed, and the last month or two also if possible.

        ~ Group "Weekend" ~

      • #103174 Reply

        PhotM
        AskWoody Plus

        March, 2017 Preview of Monthly Quality Rollup for Windows 7 for x64-based Systems (KB4012218)

        This update killed my updates for Windows 7. I have a Kaby Lake Processor and now I can not get anymore windows updates. Please see my screenshots attached.

        Is there any work around for this?

        Thank you

        I have play with this a bit but have not really used it or depended on it:

        WSUS Offline Update – Update Microsoft Windows and Office without an Internet connection
        http://www.wsusoffline.net/

        --------------------------------------

        1. Tower Totals: 2xSSD ~512GB, 2xHHD 20 TB, Memory 32GB

        SSDs: 6xOS Partitions, 2xW8.1 Main & Test, 2x10.0 Test, Pro, x64

        CPU i7 2600 K, SandyBridge/CougarPoint, 4 cores, 8 Threads, 3.4 GHz
        Graphics Radeon RX 580, RX 580 ONLY Over Clocked
        More perishable

        2xMonitors Asus DVI, Sony 55" UHD TV HDMI

        1. NUC 5i7 2cores, 4 Thread, Memory 8GB, 3.1 GHz, M2SSD 140GB
        1xOS W8.1 Pro, NAS Dependent, Same Sony above.

        -----------------

      • #103181 Reply

        anonymous
    • #103175 Reply

      dave1977nj
      AskWoody Lounger

      Is there any work around for this? Thank you

      Uninstall the preview rollup. You will have to install security only updates manually from now on, I guess.

      I uninstalled KB4012218.

      Where can I manually get the security only updates?

    • #103183 Reply

      anonymous

      “March, 2017 Preview of Monthly Quality Rollup for Windows 7 for x64-based Systems (KB4012218) No More Windows 7 Updates!” – http://www.nsaneforums.com/topic/289451-march-2017-preview-of-monthly-quality-rollup-for-windows-7-for-x64-based-systems-kb4012218-no-more-windows-7-updates/

      “Unsupported hardware” screenshot is included in the above link.

    • #103191 Reply

      anonymous

      Unless Microsoft changes its decision, it appears that those using the affected processors will need to avoid the monthly rollups from April 2017 and later, and also the monthly preview rollups from March 2017 and later.

      • #103194 Reply

        anonymous

        Addendum: Unless you’re willing to avoid the use of Windows Update to find updates.

        • #103214 Reply

          PhotM
          AskWoody Plus

          Does that really change anything? Some say it is the Windows Installer Agent that blocks one, can you confirm or dispute by on hardware trial(bare metal)?

          --------------------------------------

          1. Tower Totals: 2xSSD ~512GB, 2xHHD 20 TB, Memory 32GB

          SSDs: 6xOS Partitions, 2xW8.1 Main & Test, 2x10.0 Test, Pro, x64

          CPU i7 2600 K, SandyBridge/CougarPoint, 4 cores, 8 Threads, 3.4 GHz
          Graphics Radeon RX 580, RX 580 ONLY Over Clocked
          More perishable

          2xMonitors Asus DVI, Sony 55" UHD TV HDMI

          1. NUC 5i7 2cores, 4 Thread, Memory 8GB, 3.1 GHz, M2SSD 140GB
          1xOS W8.1 Pro, NAS Dependent, Same Sony above.

          -----------------

          • #103240 Reply

            abbodi86
            AskWoody_MVP

            Installing KB4012218 or any future rollup means no working Windows Update for these systems

            5 users thanked author for this post.
            • #103281 Reply

              woody
              Da Boss

              Does WUMT still work?

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #103282 Reply

              ch100
              AskWoody_MVP

              This is an excellent question and the implications are very subtle.
              WUMT uses the Windows Update agent already installed, but can use any agent, without forcing an upgrade, as WU would do for example with 7.6.7600.256 being upgraded to 7.6.7600.320.
              I do not endorse this approach of not allowing the normal WU mechanism to complete, but it is a very interesting path to investigate. 🙂

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #103371 Reply

              abbodi86
              AskWoody_MVP

              I doubt WUMT would work, it’s the same WUA engine

              unless the block is done to Windows Update UX only

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #103396 Reply

              ch100
              AskWoody_MVP

              I doubt WUMT would work, it’s the same WUA engine

              @abbodi86
              It is the same engine, but if you do not install the new engine, you can still use any older engine with WUMT without being forced to update.
              I did a full test patching of Windows 7 with WUMT using only 7.6.7600.256, while when normal WU interface is used, 7.6.7600.320 is flagged mandatory and forced applied first thing.
              It is true that all patches following the new agent which blocks installation on certain machines may be contained in all successive updates.
              Security only updates are not visible with WUMT, they are available only in the Catalog.
              But WUMT may be useful for browsing to see what else is available or for Office patches.
              This is based on the condition that the new agent is not installed on the machine and the last one installed is that one included in KB3172605 or earlier.

    • #103292 Reply

      anonymous

      Win 8.1 installed 2 weeks ago, i7 7700k kaby lake. Widows Update stopped working yesterday. “Incompatible equipment”

      • #103308 Reply

        radosuaf
        AskWoody Lounger

        Win 8.1 installed 2 weeks ago, i7 7700k kaby lake. Widows Update stopped working yesterday. “Incompatible equipment”

        Did you install the preview rollup?

        MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #107857 Reply

      anonymous

      Today after the last patch KB4015549 Windows 7 block all Updates and sende the error code: 80240037.

    • #102422 Reply

      satrow
      AskWoody MVP

      Don’t assume that all MS Windows purchasers/users get their news the same way that you do, an open license to change the rules as and when they see fit has been granted to MS by themselves, this doesn’t mean that all Windows users get the latest patch notes on a change made by MS to their licensing conditions immediately, or at all.

      What was once definitive might now be on Revision 12, with all previous versions expunged from the ‘net, with no direct messages to all users via any of the avenues open to MS.

    • #102424 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      You asked how I had received warning.

      What avenues are open to Microsoft for direct messages to all users?

      There was no change to any licensing conditions. Windows has a limited warranty of one year.

      Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

    • #102429 Reply

      satrow
      AskWoody MVP

      Avenues? – the same one that plants watermarks on the Desktop of those suspected of running pirated versions, WU messages perhaps?

      W7, for instance, has MS minimum hardware requirements of something like a 1Ghz CPU of x86 or x64 architecture. Skylake and later and Ryzen are still x86 and x64, yet they’re not supported now, did the architecture suddenly change?

      The MS hardware requirements page certainly did, 12 times that they acknowledge.

      Did you get those emails, too?

    • #102472 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      What avenues are open to Microsoft for direct messages to all users?

      Looking at the GWX scandal, that would more or less 90% of each 7/8.1 user’s desktop space.

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #102430 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      I didn’t need them as I haven’t had to buy a new version of Windows for more than seven years. But if I had, I would certainly appreciate that Microsoft keeps that online documentation up to date.

      Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

    • #102524 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      I’m not really sure what that means (missing verb?), but do you think GWX should have been used to tell users what they would not be able to do in the future as well as what they could?

      Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

    • #102545 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m not really sure what that means (missing verb?), but do you think GWX should have been used to tell users what they would not be able to do in the future as well as what they could?

      Yep, there’s ‘be’ missing. It’s quite understandable without it anyway. No, I think GWX should never ever be used again, but if something was in MS’s interest, they didn’t hesitate to use most disgusting techniques to force update. I would say that adding a short info (like the one used now in W10 to promote Creators Update) in the WU window wouldn’t be a problem to MS and to end users as well.

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1909 64-bit
    • #102657 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      The info about these issues couldn’t be short, and most people would have just clicked to get it off their screen (like we all do with licensing agreements).

      Microsoft Edge, Win 10 Pro 1909: Group ASAP (pioneer)

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

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