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  • How popular is Windows 10? A very small and informal survey.

    Posted on OscarCP Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    Home Forums Outside the box Rumors and what-ifs How popular is Windows 10? A very small and informal survey.

    This topic contains 45 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  anonymous 3 days, 16 hours ago.

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    • #1939251 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Plus

      Today I went to a nearby mall for groceries at the Giant’s, pizza-by-the-slice at the 40-year old pizza shop there, and to see if there was a new issue of Scientific American at the local books and magazines’ shop. While looking in the section for “Science” magazines, I looked also in the “Technology” one next to it and was able to make the following observation:

      There were six magazines there, that I imagine are published regularly, one dedicated to Macs, one to iPads, two to iPhones, one to Android, and one dedicated to Linux. There was also, sitting among those, one small book (not a magazine) with a title informing its potential buyers that it was a comprehensive guide to using Windows 10. But no actual Windows 10 mags…

      Now, I thought, this is curious, and I wondered:

      Could it be that the coming of Windows 7 EOL has people snapping actual Windows 10 mags hot off the printing press?

      Could it be that most people are quite happy using tablets and smartphones and care little for PCs and their software? Unless they are PCs running Linux or Macs running… macOS?

      Now, I admit this is one data point of very circumstance evidence, so I derive no hard and fast conclusions from it, but merely offer those few alternative explanations. Perhaps others reading this might be moved to conduct their own informal mag-shop reviews of how Windows 10 is doing versus the Rest of the World, and then contribute here their penny’s worth of insight on this vexing issue.

       

      Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

    • #1939347 Reply

      anonymous

      Windows 10 is so bad I swapped to Linux. That’s my answer…

      • #1939499 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody_MVP

        Same here.  There are a number of us here who have, but it’s hard to draw any broader conclusions about how the general public thinks based on what people on a tech-oriented site like this report… and even here, those who have not abandoned Windows for Linux, MacOS, etc., outnumber those who have.

        I’ve always been a computer enthusiast rather than just one who uses them to accomplish tasks.  It’s enthusiasts who would buy and read computer magazines like the ones Oscar mentioned.  When I was younger, in my teenage years, I would sit down in front of the Commodore 64 and try to think of things to do with it.  What I did with it wasn’t important; as long as I was using my computer, I was as happy as I could be.  And yes, I had subscriptions to computer magazines like Compute’s Gazette and RUN.

        Later on, that enthusiasm was transferred to what we now call the PC world, even though they’re all PCs in the original sense of the word.  PC in this sense refers to the IBM PC, the one that started it all, even though IBM itself has not been in the market for many years.  Back then, in 1990, DOS was used for the real work (and gaming) in the PC world. Windows 3.0 was a new exciting thing for the computer magazines to write articles about and extol its many new features, but it would be a few more years before people began to think of Windows as a platform rather than as an application for the DOS platform.

        At that time, I don’t remember any stigma attached to Microsoft.  MS-DOS, while crude and lacking in hardware abstraction, multiuser support, security, memory management, and multitasking capability, was capable of what people used PCs for at the time, and it seems like people didn’t really think much about Microsoft.  It was IBM that loomed over the whole community… all of our machines were either IBM or were copies of them.  Microsoft was kind of a non-entity in people’s minds… it was Lotus that ruled spreadsheets and Wordperfect that ruled word processing, not Excel or Word.  OS/2 looked like it was set to continue that, until Microsoft challenged their former partner with Windows.

        While Microsoft already owned the PC OS market with DOS, I think it was Windows that actually put their name into people’s heads.  It would not be until the beginning of the browser wars (with Windows 98, the first version of Windows to have IE integrated, which was a symbol for the browser wars that were already in progress) that broad contempt for Microsoft appeared to became commonplace, though it was far from universal.

        Windows 95 was seen as a real revolution back in its day.  It was exciting and cool… something you’d want to have and talk about.  It’s hard to imagine today, but there was a rockstar appeal to it that had never existed for Microsoft before.  The internet had gone mainstream, and suddenly everyone needed a way to use it… and that way was Windows 95, largely.

        That was a long time ago.  Neither Microsoft nor Windows has been cool in a long time, and that’s okay, really… a computer is a tool to do work, not to show how cool you are by owning a cool machine.  Apple has managed to keep their status symbol appeal for a long time, but Microsoft’s cool was never the “part of an elite club” kind of cool.  Microsoft’s cool was bound to be self-defeating… something that made computing mainstream and commonplace can’t keep its edge forever.  Mainstream, common stuff is not cool, but it is useful.

        For the mainstream computer user, Windows was the OS that everyone used, and that was that.  It’s still that way, though MS seems bound and determined to test that to the greatest extent possible.  To me, Windows was scruffy, imperfect, annoying at times, but it was my scruffy, imperfect, annoying at times OS.  I’d complain to other Windows users about its failings, but I would have defended it against attacks by Mac users.  Windows was not cool anymore, but it was still the everyman’s OS, and there’s value in that.  Apple never went for that market, or at least not in so many words.

        I can’t say how other computer enthusiasts saw Windows, but that was my take on it for the XP and Windows 7 eras.  Windows 8 was more like the Windows release between XP and 7, which of course was Vista.  A lot of people, including me at the time, avoided 8 and 8.1, but I never perceived that this was anything other than another unsuccessful version of Windows in the making, inevitably to be followed by a better one.

        And then Windows 10 arrived.  In the early days of its planning, what came to be called Windows 10  was being billed as the OS that Microsoft had to get right after the disaster of 8.  MS promised that they were going to take care to listen to customers and find out what they really wanted, kind of like how they had done so much user experience research in the years leading up to Windows 95, and it was going to be another blockbuster, paradigm-shifting Windows like 95 was too.

        And then we got… this.  If Windows 8 was the Windows that said, “We don’t have any idea what our users want in an OS,” Windows 10 was the Windows that said, “We don’t have any concern over what our users want in an OS.”  The lesson of Windows Vista and Windows 8.x had been that if you (meaning MS) fail to provide an OS that your users want, they won’t choose to use it, and MS took it to heart.  Unfortunately, the part they chose to change wasn’t the bit about providing an OS the users want, but in the bit about letting them choose whether or not to use it.

        Any enthusiasm that the enthusiasts like me (meaning the ones who think as I do, which is not all of them!) used to have for our scruffy Windows platform seems to be long gone. Computers were always more than mere tools to us enthusiasts… they were our hobby and our passion too, and Windows 10 has never been compatible with that.  It’s hard to be enthusiastic about a product designed to usurp control from its rightful owners and to deliver that control to Microsoft, particularly among the more tech-savvy people that make up the enthusiast community, who typically have much more defined ideas, and firmer boundaries, about what they will permit in the software that defines the “personality” of their PCs.  Satya Nadella said that he wanted people to use Windows because they love Windows, not because they have to use Windows, but never has it been more true that people use Windows because they have no other choice.

        That’s why Windows 10 became a non-contender in the contest for the future OS of my PCs.  It was ruled out so completely that to me it doesn’t truly exist as a serious option.  As an enthusiast, I’d go to any length to make my PCs continue to work without Windows 10, and Linux has been a welcoming and effective refuge.  If I am to keep using my existing hardware with a supported OS, there quite literally is no other choice but Linux and other open-source Unix-like OSes.  Windows 7 and 8.1 have numbered days, MacOS is not licensed to run on non-Apple hardware… so what is there other than Linux or BSD?

        Non-enthusiasts may see it differently.  Some enthusiasts will too, no doubt, including those whose enthusiasm is more about gaming than the platform itself.  I am a bit of a gamer, but most of the time spent on PCs is by far not game-related.  To me, the challenge of getting games to run well on Linux is at least as fun as the games themselves, making running them under Linux a far more entertaining and rewarding experience than running them on Windows would have been.  And if the games do not work adequately on Linux, that’s fine… there are plenty that will, by far more than enough to fill up whatever free time I may have.

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        • #1939789 Reply

          mn–
          AskWoody Lounger

          Windows 95 was seen as a real revolution back in its day.  It was exciting and cool… something you’d want to have and talk about.  It’s hard to imagine today, but there was a rockstar appeal to it that had never existed for Microsoft before.

          … with consumers, maybe. On the professional side, not much. Sure the user interface was nice but the internals were a mess…

          Anyone wanting reliability on Windows went with NT after 3.x, and it’s become quite clear that network-active operating systems really did need the security and permissions framework that MSDOS and W9x never had.

          Some switched to Linux already by this point, and at the time non-free UNIX (Solaris, etc) desktops were still viable for business use.

          so what is there other than Linux or BSD?

          Illumos?

          Really there’s any number of more specialized operating systems that could be built on, some of which used to have desktop versions too but were dropped due to lack of market share, and projects that only lack critical mass.

        • #1939878 Reply

          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Ascaris:

          To me, the real big thing, as far as Windows goes, was Windows NT. It had all the advances  made in previous versions, among them long file names, much larger addressable memory, etc.  But now, on top of all that, also a much greater stability: instead of twice a day, it only crashed twice a month! This, put together with the, by then, much faster CPUs meant that, finally! here was something one could use to do the sort of serious number crunching on a PC that, until then, had been possible only using an expensive UNIX workstation! And even to do things and test ideas on one’s own desktop that before could only be done or tested using mainframes! Of course, the job runs still took considerable time, but not so long anymore as to be impractical to make them, thanks to those new PCs with their fast buses and CPUs.

          But, back to my mini survey: it felt strange, after years of seeing several Windows publications on display, mostly about the latest Windows version, whenever I walked into a large books and magazines shop, finding now only that one small book on how to use it among all the mags on anything else but Windows, or maybe on “and-by-the-way” Windows-related topics. I don’t know if that meant something more profound than “people do not read much about operating systems or PCs anymore, so we don’t stock many of their trade magazines and you just came in a day the few Win 10 ones we still carry were all sold out”. Or maybe I was seeing a symptom of something larger, deeper? Any thoughts?

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

    • #1939632 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      But no actual Windows 10 mags…

      Any Catalina, Oreo/Pie or Ubuntu mags?

      Knuckle dragger Cannon fodder Chump Daft glutton Idiot Crazy/Ignorant Toxic drinker Blockhead Unwashed mass Seeker/Sucker "Ancient/Obsolete" (Group ASAP) Win10 v.1903

    • #1940020 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Plus

      Windows 7 Still Used in Almost 50% of Surveyed Businesses
      https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/windows-7-still-used-in-almost-50-percent-of-surveyed-businesses/

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    • #1940021 Reply

      doriel
      AskWoody Lounger

      Thank you for your honest insight. I can give you mine.
      I understand, that Windows is best choice for most people, because they have no other option, because they dont KNOW about other options. I installed several computers for older people (like 50+), they had no experience with computers and I installed Fedora on it. That people learned to use interntet browser (Firefox) and computer is working still until today, users are satisfied and their OS is still the same. No updates, no data loss, no problems. Clear opposite of W10 today.

      As you stated, Microsoft is going its own way, no matter what users want.

      This transformation into “Windows as a service” is catastrophic, clearly just to earn more money.

      Other thing I dont like about Windows is its vauge servicing messages. You wait like 20 minutes to finish upgrade, with this message on your screen “Do not turn computer off, … ” and spinning circle.

      Then error occurs and all you have is message 0x1c00008ab (for example) IRQ_UNREPAIRABLE_ERROR
      You do not see what is happening, all running under “nice-looking” screen.

      On the other hand, Linux gives you exact information, what is going on every moment and you can actually troubleshhot issues. In terminal, you see what is happening during installation. This is why I prefer Linux. Also, open-source community is creating some value, not just trying to earn more money, it is created by enthusiasts. Then MS is abusing Linux and creates Azure completely on Linux, not fair by my opinion, they are just using others work to profit from it.

      I vote for Linux in your survey 🙂

      Also iOS is good, but they are sort of separated from the rest, whis is fine, I dont mind that they are going its own way, they have lot of fans and everything seem to work just right.

      I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
      --- Thomas A. Edison

      • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  doriel. Reason: oh grammar
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    • #1940591 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      I’ve dual booted for a couple of decades.  I joined Windows Insiders to get Windows 8 Pro, and installed it on one side of my dual-boot over Windows 7 Ultimate.  Didn’t like the Startscreen with all the tiles, but quickly discovered StartIsBack, and that made the desktop look like Windows 7.  I didn’t use the apps, so that didn’t matter.  Didn’t like Home Group networking, so I disabled it in Windows Services and just used Windows networking.

      I upgraded Windows 8 Pro to 8.1 Pro when it came out.  It was better, more stable.  Disabled Home Group again, and kept working with 8.1.  StartIsBack upgraded to StartIsBack+, so it was still looking like Windows 7.  All my programs were working fine (an upgrade over an upgrade of Windows 7 Ultimate).  But I still had a couple of reservations, and did all my serious work on the Windows 7 Ultimate side of my dual-boot.

      A caveat here: I’ve always kept every version of Windows up to date, never put off any updates.  I’ve also always kept up-to-date drive images because I do a lot of piddlin’ around in Windows innards, and cause the vast majority of my Windows problems myself.  So I’ve never hesitated to install an update; I’ve got an easy way out of any troubles; just restore the latest drive image.  I haven’t had to, but I could.

      When Windows 10 Insiders edition was released, I upgrade my 8.1 Pro to 10 Pro.  Everything still worked, I disabled Home Group again, and kept cruisin’.  The updates don’t bother me in the least.  When a new version of 10 Pro was released, I used the MCT to do an in-place upgrade, have had no problems whatsoever.  All my programs with the exception of two continued to work.  MagicDisc (virtual CD) doesn’t work, but MagicISO still does.  And each upgrade would kick StartIsBack out, but I could reinstall it and it continues to work great.  It’s now on StartIsBack++ v2.8.8 and Windows 10 Pro 1903 still looks just like Windows 7.

      After 1709 was released, I dropped out of Windows Insiders, and started following along with the 6 month upgrade schedule and the Windows Updates.  I discovered that I was spending much more time on the Windows 10 side of my dual-boot, so I used the MCT to upgrade the Windows 7 Ultimate on the other side of my dual-boot to Windows 10 Pro.

      With Windows 10 Pro, I’ve never had a BSOD, a black screen, or any other problems caused by upgrades/updates.  Everything just works.  I’m still using StartIsBack++.  Windows 10 Pro still looks and feels like Windows 7, only snappier and more stable.  Networking is rock solid.  I have an HP Officejet Pro 8600 network printer on Ethernet.  Occasionally “Scan to computer” gets wiped (print has always continued to work), but all I have to do is go into the printer UI and re=enable Scan to computer; not a big deal or inconvenience.

      I have used Linux on a number of occasions, done some programming on Linux, but it has never been my cup of tea.  When I built my NAS, instead of using Free NAS, I’m running Windows 10 Pro on it, as well.

      To recap, I’ve always kept Windows up-to-date, the “having control over updates” has never been an issue or a concern.  I’m a Seeker, checking for updates nearly every day.  I have never, not once, had an update pooch any of my systems (I’ve got 5 installations), even though I’m always ready with a current drive image in case one did.  I have never had a spontaneous reboot occur while I was working on something.  Reboots always occur “after hours”, or when I initiate it.

      Windows 10 Pro is faster, more stable, more reliable, with better networking than any version of Windows before it.  All but one of my programs and utilities that worked on Windows 7 Ultimate continue to work exactly the same on Windows 10 Pro.  I made the transition to Windows 10 Pro based on direct comparison with Windows 7 Ultimate on the same hardware over a long period of time.

      Let it be known that I don’t run a “standard” installation anywhere but my NAS.  I dual boot, I have Windows’ major folders on separate drives/partitions/logical drives (using Microsoft supported methods).  My daily-driver mini-tower has 3 SSD’s, 2 SSHD’s and 1 HDD.  Across these are spread 21 partitions/logical drives.

      I have completely removed, via registry edits, all Special Folders, Libraries and Quick Access.  I have absolutely no use for any of them.  My partitions/logical drives are my special folders and libraries, and I find them much better and easier to use than Microsoft’s efforts.

      To sum up, for me Linux is a waste of my time, Windows 10 Pro is bigger-better-faster-more compared to Windows 7 Pro/Ultimate.  I have a method (not Microsoft supported) that will stop upgrades cold, but I also have no desire to use it, because I’m more than satisfied with Windows 10 Pro as it is.

      One more thing.  The A side of my dual-boot is Windows 10 Pro upgraded over 8.1 Pro upgraded over 8 Pro upgraded over 7 Ultimate.  (I don’t do clean installs, except for my NAS, which was a new build)  The B side of my dual-boot is Windows 10 Pro upgraded directly over Windows 7 Ultimate.  There are subtle differences.

      On the A side I can right-click on the computer icon on the desktop, select Manage, click on Disk Management, get a UAC pop-up, put in the Admin PIN, and be on my way.  On the B side, I get a pop-up saying I don’t have privileges, and must sign in as Administrator.  The differences are so minor I haven’t bothered to suss them out.

      I could go right back to Windows 7 Ultimate with a couple of drive image restorations, but I won’t, because I like Windows 10 much better.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!
      "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      • #1941005 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        What’s the point of dual-booting Windows 10 Pro and Windows 10 Pro? (Just curious.)

        Knuckle dragger Cannon fodder Chump Daft glutton Idiot Crazy/Ignorant Toxic drinker Blockhead Unwashed mass Seeker/Sucker "Ancient/Obsolete" (Group ASAP) Win10 v.1903

    • #1940757 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Plus

      There’s certainly no shortage of Windows 10 books. Typing Windows 10 into the book category search yielded 7000 results.
      https://www.amazon.com/s?k=windows+10&i=stripbooks&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

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      • #1941064 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        geekdom: “There’s certainly no shortage of Windows 10 books.

        Quite true, but I started this thread intending to discuss Windows 10 popularity from the, admittedly unsophisticated, point of view of its dedicated magazines’ situation at places that sell them. In hopes that others might remember my original entry enough to have a look around their own favorite magazine shops and then, perhaps, report back here what is that they are seeing in them.

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

        • #1941108 Reply

          geekdom
          AskWoody Plus

          Same search in Amazon using Window 10 magazine yields 157 results:
          https://www.amazon.com/s?k=windows+10+magazine&i=stripbooks&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

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          • #1941112 Reply

            OscarCP
            AskWoody Plus

            Thanks, geekdom. That looks like another avenue of exploration for an unscientific and really very limited appraisal of Windows 10 popularity.

            I must say, though, that Amazon and also those business that sell through it carry all sorts of odds and ends that no regular business does, including some no longer available, such as publications out of print, sold as being in “fair”, “good as new”, etc, condition. I must confess to not remembering ever seeing “Windows … for Senior Citizens” in a magazine’s section. Its publication sounds like a worthy endeavor (if a bit patronizing, also sagte Senior Citizen OscarCP).

            Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

    • #1940817 Reply

      jabeattyauditor
      AskWoody Lounger

      I didn’t realize they still *printed* any computer-related periodicals worth reading…

      • #1941078 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        The people that own magazine shops seem to think that, regardless of whether they are “worth reading” or not, there are enough people who want to buy them (and, presumably, also to read them), to make it financially worthwhile to carry them in the shelves of their shops. And they might just know that for a fact. Popularity is under discussion, not quality.

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

    • #1941049 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      I love Win10, have since 1703 and all subsequent releases. It has been rock solid reliable for me on handfuls of machines. Using anything prior feels slow and archaic at this point in time.

      If *nix had better game support for my Steam library, I’d consider switching to Ubuntu – but it doesn’t, even with all the advances they’ve made over the last few years. (And they have.) Windows is still the main game in town if you are a gamer.

      • #1941071 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        zero2dash: “If *nix had better game support for my Steam library, I’d consider switching to Ubuntu – but it doesn’t”

        Good point. I wonder if that has something to do with legal wranglings or something else that is also quite unrelated to actual technical difficulties. It’s hard to understand, otherwise. The capability to support computer games is a very important part of the popularity of an OS, and at Canonical they must be well aware of this. They certainly have had enough time to do more about it. (I do not play computer games myself, but am not completely ignorant of their importance.)

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

        • #1941073 Reply

          Ascaris
          AskWoody_MVP

          What would you expect Canonical to do about it?  They can’t force game makers to write for Linux, and it is a bit much to ask if you mean to suggest that Canonical should just make WINE work for everything.

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          • #1941088 Reply

            OscarCP
            AskWoody Plus

            Ascaris: “What would you expect Canonical to do about it?

            Team up with those developers, if those developers saw it in their own interest to have their games getting as many users as possible? (As far as I know, the GPL allows for software to be sold — and for its creators to make money in this way — even if it includes GLP components, as long as these are recognized in the copyright statement.) Developing their own games and encouraging others to do the same? Or is all that out of the question?

            Not criticizing, just curious.

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            • #1941170 Reply

              Ascaris
              AskWoody_MVP

              There are a lot of bits of Linux that Canonical (or Red Hat/IBM, etc.) would like to see improved.  That was the goal of their now-abandoned Mir project, which was supposed to be a replacement for X (as is Wayland), not to mention the Unity project.

              Ubuntu and its derivatives are popular among home users, but the money is made at the enterprise level.  Market share doesn’t translate to money when the product is free and there are no monetization efforts (and the last time Canonical tried one with Amazon, they were taken to the woodshed by users).

              That enterprise connection doesn’t mean that supporting WINE would be out of the question, as WINE would be a tremendous boon to businesses that wish to run things like MS Office or Photoshop on Linux, and that is supposed to be the main focus of Codeweavers, the long-time main contributors to WINE.  Now Steam has joined them, and if any one entity is responsible for making Linux gaming something other than a punch line, it’s Steam.  Linux gaming is improving more rapidly now than at any time in the past I can think of… all of the games I’ve heard about and thought that I really want to play that (as opposed to perusing the games that are available in Linux and picking one) have worked very well on Linux under WINE.

              Canonical isn’t the open-source version of Microsoft that is so big that it can just make things happen because they decided to.  A modern Linux distro like Ubuntu has hundreds or thousands of components that were written by someone other than Canonical, and that does not answer to Canonical.  There is no Linux equivalent of Microsoft, though if anyone comes the closest, I would think it would be Red Hat.

              Canonical’s focus is not on Linux gaming or on running Windows productivity applications, but on developing the distro that so many of us use, even if our versions (Mint, Neon, etc.) don’t have Ubuntu in the title.  It would be nice if other game companies besides Valve would recognize that it’s in their financial interest to not let Microsoft turn the entire Windows software market into an iOS-like walled garden, or even a semi-walled garden like Android (you can sideload apps, but most people never will).  Microsoft can’t wield its monopoly power with the same effect if there is a viable alternative out there, and as far as gaming, Apple has not shown much interest in being the new gaming platform.  Making Linux a viable gaming platform protects the ability for game publishers to write whatever Windows games they want (rather than having to bend to someone else’s rules, as iOS devs do) and to sell them on their own terms.  So far, none but Valve have figured this out.

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    • #1941095 Reply

      Susan Bradley
      AskWoody MVP

      Windows has never been “sexy” enough for the magazine aisle.

      Susan Bradley Patch Lady

      • #1941109 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        I am not sure of what “sexy” means here, but if that means that they have never had a prolonged big presence in the magazine shelves, then I must beg to differ, in the light of my own experience over the (many) years.

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

      • #1941127 Reply

        anonymous

        PC Magazine and several others once had plenty of DOS and Windows related stuff years ago on the cover, it was sometimes an underlying thing, or a companion to technical article, or directly a subject of a technology article.

        • #1941168 Reply

          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Anonymous: Quite right. I should have mentioned not seeing, this time at least, Windows 10 being mentioned in the covers of technology magazines, as well as not seeing any Win 10-dedicated mags.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

          • #1941177 Reply

            anonymous

            Perhaps someone could check a public library for a suitable publication, it could or does not exist.

    • #1941098 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      What’s the point of dual-booting Windows 10 Pro and Windows 10 Pro? (Just curious.)

      I plunder within the innards of Windows quite a lot, and quite often break it.  The plundering is for purpose, so I don’t just restore a drive image, I keep digging and try to get it straightened out.

      I have found no greater tool for working on a pooched installation of Windows than a clean, fully-updated working installation of Windows that has direct access to the pooched version.  It’s all about finding solutions, as well as ways of making Windows more efficient and reliable.

      When I was running XP, I figured out how to completely separate the main system folders; Windows, Program Files, Users and the Page file onto different partitions/logical drives, and two separate HDD’s.  With the OS and Users on two separate HDD’s, XP loaded noticeably faster.  At that time I had the Users and Programs Files partitions on one HDD, and Windows on a different HDD.  The Page file was on a dedicated partition, formatted in FAT32, at the beginning of a HDD separate from Windows.  That was an additional speed boost.

      When I went to Windows 7, I had to modify the techniques considerably, but finally got Windows 7 working my way as well, without breaking Windows Update.  Even SP1 installed without a hiccup.  I did the same with Windows 8, and Windows 8.1.

      Windows 10 has proven to be a different animal.  I had to put my divided Windows back into a single partition before Windows 10 would upgrade over it.  I’ve been able to cut Windows 10 into pieces, but it breaks Windows Update.  That one is still a work in progress.

      My web site has more details.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!
      "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1941149 Reply

      dg1261
      AskWoody_MVP

      What’s the point of dual-booting Windows 10 Pro and Windows 10 Pro?

      I’ve setup the computers for my wife and adult children to dual-boot two partitions of the same OS. (The kids are all grown and out of the house now, but I still provide their tech support.)

      In our case, they’re two installs of Win7 Pro. I don’t like Win10 for the same reasons Ascaris has articulated so well.

      As for the benefit of two installs of the same OS, my imaging strategy is somewhat different than most and is based on my “rolling clean install” technique. My strategy is to let my wife/kids use one partition for daily use, then eventually (after, say, 9-12 months) I’ll “rolling clean install” to the other partition and they’ll switch to using that one for daily use. After another 9-12 months I’ll “rolling clean install” back on the first partition and they’ll switch back to using that one.

      This strategy allows me to, without a lot of effort, keep their computers running in top form, but without losing what they had most recently been using, just in case. Since they no longer live here, I’m not familiar with everything they’re doing, and they may forget to tell me about something that they had wanted preserved with the clean install. In that event, the dual-boot allows them to boot back into the older partition in the interim until I can get around to addressing the oversight.

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      b
    • #1941217 Reply

      Charlie
      AskWoody Plus

      I for one have not seen any computer magazines at all whether it be Windows, Mac, Linux, whatever in any places that sell magazines like drug stores, and supermarkets.  I have seen some computer oriented magazines in Barnes and Noble, mainly on Linux and Mac, but not Windows.

      I think they still do some computer magazines through on line places like Zinio.

      Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Groups B & L

      • #1941220 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        I usually buy some books and magazines at the local “Books-A-Million” in a shopping mall near my place. It is a chain, same as Barnes and Noble:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books-A-Million.

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

    • #1941221 Reply

      DriftyDonN
      AskWoody Plus

      M$ft and win10 have taken the joy out of computing. I too am more of an enthusiast(back to comm 64 and Tandy 100 ) I need to point out that you mention m4ft taking from “rightful owners”….we have NEVER been OWNERS- license holders ONLY. That little bit of info in the legalese burned me for the last 30 odd yrs. Pirating software looked oh so inviting….

      Now m$ft is making it impossible. Linux here we come!!! or (shudder) Apple

      D

      [Moderator edit to remove extremely long quote]

      • #1941230 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody_MVP

        Please edit down the quotation to just the most pertinent bits before posting.

        I need to point out that you mention m4ft taking from “rightful owners”….we have NEVER been OWNERS- license holders ONLY.

        We’re owners of the hardware, though, and that is the part MS seems to forget.  Nothing MS puts in the EULA changes that they do not own the hardware upon which Windows runs.  An OS that sometimes serves the hardware owner and sometimes flatly refuses to do what the hardware owner wants so it can instead serve Microsoft’s interests isn’t what I would call fit for purpose.

         

        Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.5).

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1941308 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      We’re owners of the hardware, though, and that is the part MS seems to forget. Nothing MS puts in the EULA changes that they do not own the hardware upon which Windows runs. An OS that sometimes serves the hardware owner and sometimes flatly refuses to do what the hardware owner wants so it can instead serve Microsoft’s interests isn’t what I would call fit for purpose.

      Group “L” (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.5).

      Microsoft is well aware that they are not the owners of hardware in the private sector.  They spell it out distinctly in the EULA early on.

      “By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.”

      That is to say, it’s your hardware, Microsoft’s software.  Use Microsoft’s software under their terms on your hardware or don’t use it at all.  Microsoft retains full ownership; always have, and apparently, always will.  Whether or not to enter into their license agreement is entirely up to you.  The terms of the agreement are entirely up to Microsoft.

      You chose to run Linux, instead.  Wise choice for you.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!
      "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      • #1942141 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody_MVP

        Actions speak louder than words.  If they truly understood what ownership means, they would not act as they do.  You keep going to the EULA, but I’m not concerned with what they can get away with legally (and even that’s far from being written in stone).  I’m talking about basic ethics as I see them, and Microsoft fails miserably there.

        Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.5).

    • #1941599 Reply

      wavy
      AskWoody Plus

      it seems like people didn’t really think much about Microsoft. It was IBM that loomed over the whole community… all of our machines were either IBM or were copies of them. Microsoft was kind of a non-entity in people’s minds… it was Lotus that ruled spreadsheets and Wordperfect that ruled word processing, not Excel or Word. OS/2 looked like it was set to continue that, until Microsoft challenged their former partner with Windows.

      Remember the saying “Windows isn’t done until Lotus won’t run”?

      And where would we be today if O/S2 Warp had not been ditched?

      well spilt milk and all that …

      🍻

      Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
      • #1948506 Reply

        Charlie
        AskWoody Plus

        I still have and use Lotus SmartSuite ’97 that runs perfectly well on my old IBM T40 Laptop with Win XP.  IBM was nice enough to include Smartsuite ’97 in with Windows 95B in the Aptiva computer I bought in 1997.  They even included a CD with the SmartSuite program on it that I still have.  I learned Lotus 123 well before MS practically forced everyone into learning their Excel in Office.  I still prefer Lotus 123 over Excel for my own use.

        Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Groups B & L

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #1949168 Reply

          mn–
          AskWoody Lounger

          … that’s the one that by default autoreveals hidden content in .doc files, right? Including deleted paragraphs if you only did a “quick save” in MS Word?

          There was a hassle about those with some careless people back in the late 90s I think…

          • #1951330 Reply

            Charlie
            AskWoody Plus

            Lotus 123, a spreadsheet program, autoreveals hidden content in .doc files, which are MS Word, a word processor program?  I never heard of that nor did I ever have any problems with it.

            Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Groups B & L

            • #1951366 Reply

              anonymous

              SmartSuite, as the name suggests, is/was a suite of productivity software. I looked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Lotus_SmartSuite to remind me that the word processor section was called Ami Pro, then later Word Pro; and saved files in the .lwp format.

              I am failing to remember the name of the older word processor I used to use on old monospaced CRT displays. But I always appreciated the ability to view the hidden command characters for my lineprinter.

            • #1952193 Reply

              Charlie
              AskWoody Plus

              Yes indeed, you’re right.  Word Perfect may be the word processor you’re thinking of.

              Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Groups B & L

            • #1957921 Reply

              Microfix
              Da Boss

              I’d really like to see IBM re-introduce the Lotus smart suite in a modern form. With the aquisition of red hat, both together (Big Blue Hat) might produce something along those lines. I’d certainly be interested and would probably give MS office a run for their extortionate money.

              ********** Win7 x64/x86 | Win8.1 x64 | Linux Hybrids x64 **********

            • #1958084 Reply

              anonymous

              Your wish list looks like mine. Microsoft needs more direct* competition. I would rather see that happen on store shelves and in boardrooms than at a federal judge’s bench. The idea that it could be IBM to return the favor after lo these many decades is just a thin layer of sweet irony icing on top.

              * I consider Apple to be a huge success, but not really in direct competition. The respective communities are fairly stable.

      • #1949240 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        As I remember it, Office was the “killer app” that impelled DOS and, with it, MS and Bill Gates over the top and into the big time. The demise of Lotus 123 was collateral damage for being in Bill’s (and history’s) way.

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

        • #1952215 Reply

          wavy
          AskWoody Plus

          Dos ain’t dun til Lotus won’t run as I seem to be fond of saying 😁

          🍻

          Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
          • #1957877 Reply

            Charlie
            AskWoody Plus

            The keystrokes  / F R F3  brought up all the DOS 123 files.  I learned Lotus 123 on DOS.

            Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Groups B & L

    • #1948488 Reply

      mn–
      AskWoody Lounger

      Ubuntu and its derivatives are popular among home users, but the money is made at the enterprise level.  Market share doesn’t translate to money when the product is free and there are no monetization efforts

      I don’t know, the livepatch thing is something that I’d have actually spent money on at a previous job, but it wasn’t available yet…

      Microsoft is well aware that they are not the owners of hardware in the private sector.  They spell it out distinctly in the EULA early on.

      And I’d really like to see at least one European consumer-protection court case on that one, but not very likely.

      Now m$ft is making it impossible. Linux here we come!!! or (shudder) Apple

      Pity that the alternate commercial desktop vendors are just about all gone now. Used to be able to find Sun, HP, Apollo, SGI, DEC and a bunch of others… I think IBM (AIX) was actually the last to go of the traditional “workstation” offerings. (Really preferred HP-UX over AIX on the desktop though.)

      Heh, Apollo… been a while… Oh well. Also should’ve saved one Symbolics keyboard to mount on a wall.

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

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