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  • If you think you are having a bad day

    Home Forums AskWoody blog If you think you are having a bad day

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      • #2353103
        Susan Bradley
        Manager

        Off topic wonder for a Friday https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1375218436494647296 You could be a Captain for a ship. I think they are going to have
        [See the full post at: If you think you are having a bad day]

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

      • #2353109
        Cee Arr
        AskWoody Plus

        I think that ship is the “MS MarchUpdate”.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2353118
        APBiddle
        AskWoody Plus

        I enjoy political and military-political thrillers.  One plot staple is to block the Suez Canal, usually with an explosive laden ship, to prevent the movement of military vessels, though also sometimes for economic reasons.  It probably IS nothing, but can’t help thinking about that, and why it is taking so long to clear.  Lloyds is quoting the cost at something like $400M/hour, though the exact meaning of that is somewhat ambiguous.

        I haven’t heard anything about blocked technology shipments, though that is a given, but there is one report that it could cause another toilet paper shortage.

        • #2353313
          Paul T
          AskWoody MVP

          another toilet paper shortage

          There was never a shortage, just people buying large quantities that they didn’t need.

          cheers, Paul

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          mpw
      • #2353117
        anonymous
        Guest

        Plan is to pump out the sand beneath

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2353655
          rc primak
          AskWoody_MVP

          US Navy has also said we are ready to help if we can. A few containers and some ballast would need to be removed, but the real problem is that the ship is wedged at an angle, and that has to be straightened out. Powerful tugs are needed for that job. good luck to everyone involved!

          -- rc primak

      • #2353126
        krism
        AskWoody Plus

        I think they have a worst case scenario. If it had been low tide when it rammed the shore, it would be easy – just wait for high tide and push it out. So assume high tide: yeah, lighten the load by a lot and pump out lots of sand. Bad situation. Just a situation urging us to look out for bottlenecks wherever and however they might manifest themselves, be it computers, networks, or canals – all the same. check things out occasionally! 🙂 Always eyeball your setup for worst-case scenario – fire? flood? Be prepared! It’s relatively easy.

        TP shortage? – use a bidet.

        - ThinkPad T530-2394-3J8, i5-3380M 2.9GHz, UEFI/GPT: (Win10 20H2 Pro x64), 8GB(15GB/s), Sammy 500GB SSD. -

        • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by krism.
        • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by krism. Reason: further comment on prepared
        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2353146
        The Surfing Pensioner
        AskWoody Plus

        What was a cargo ship that size doing in the Suez canal anyway? I should have expected some restriction on the passage of oversized vessels, just as motorway authorities limit the weight/size of vehicles on bridges. Surely a lesson to be learned for the future?

        5 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2353151
          Seff
          AskWoody Plus

          My understanding is that this size of ship has only recently been permitted in the Suez Canal, a decision that I imagine will soon be reversed.

          When a ship this size can be blown off course by a 30mph gust of wind then it suggests that we’re making them too big!

          As for its rescue, I suppose a combination of lightening the load, removing a lot of sand and then pulling with tugs will be the only way – and that seemingly could take weeks to complete.

          3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2353168
        Charlie
        AskWoody Plus

        Expect oil prices to go up as tankers can’t get through and have backed up, making the canal even more of a mess.

        • #2353179
          Alex5723
          AskWoody Plus

          Prices of oil are going up 4% today.
          Every day $9B worth merchandize is passing through the canal.
          There is now a long line of 150 ships waiting to pass.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2353658
          rc primak
          AskWoody_MVP

          The big oil tankers can’t make the passage as it stands. They go around Africa.

          -- rc primak

      • #2353181
        Chris B
        AskWoody Plus

        At least they are setting up a diversion 🙂

        Chris
        Win 10 Pro x64 Group A

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      • #2353214
        AmbularD
        AskWoody Plus

        I suppose if they can’t dislodge it any other way, they could unload and dismantle the thing.  Can you imagine having to explain that to the insurance adjuster?  I don’t think ‘Got immovably lodged across a critical trade route and we had to take it apart’ is covered by most policies.

        Better yet, picture having to explain to the unemployment office or at a job interview that you left your last job because you got your boat stuck in the Suez Canal and disrupted billions of dollars in international trade for days (weeks?  Months…?)

        i7-4790k - Z97X-Gaming 3 - DDR3 2133 x 32GB - GTX 1070 FTW - Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 ESU

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2353227
          The Surfing Pensioner
          AskWoody Plus

          Help, yes, the insurance claim! If they can’t find anyone to accuse of negligence, will they say the gust of wind responsible was an ‘Act of God’?

      • #2353215
        anonymous
        Guest

        Removing the containers is a massive and tricky job especially as the location appears to be in  the middle of nowhere – not in a port.

        To raise the boat remove the fuel;  just leave enough to keep systems running. Refuel when the end of Suez canal is reached.

        Whatever action is taken – beware of “breaking the boat’s back” – could be messy!

         

         

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2353241
        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        Actually I am having a fine day. Just wondering what might become more expensive, besides oil and the refined products, such as gasoline, obtained from it, now that many things coming, for example from China, have to do it, for the time being, following the ancient and much more expensive and slow sea-routes to Europe and thence to the Americas, from the Cape of Good Hope all along the West coast of Africa and from the Gulf or the Red Sea all around Africa.

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

      • #2353242
        Susan Bradley
        Manager

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

        5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2353304
        Kathy Stevens
        AskWoody Lounger

        The Suez Canal ‘traffic jam’ is good news for America’s west coast ports and railways.

        With more than 230 ships already waiting to enter the Suez Canal, shippers and ocean carriers are facing difficult choices.  Wait in line and incur the cost of the idle ships and loss of productivity/revenue or, for traffic heading to North America’s east coast, diverting the vessels to America’s west coast ports where containers and autos can be trans-loaded onto rail cars for the movement east.

        Of course, if the canal remains blocked for an extended period, we can expect vessel delays/congestion berthing at North American Pacific basin ports, constraints on truck capacity to move containers away from the piers to rail-heads, and a paucity rail cars and locomotives to move the traffic east.

        And if the blockage remains in place for an extended period it is possible that traffic originating in the Pacific basin may move across North America for reloading in ports like New York and Baltimore for delivery to Europe.

        And of course, an extended canal blockage may lead to a shortage of ocean containers due to extended cycle times.

        Interesting times for global logistic managers.

        • #2353324
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Kathy Stevens: Good point. Looking at the map, it is a shorter distance across the Pacific to North America from East Asian countries and Australasia.

          But for that very reason (and to be a devil’s advocate), those countries’ cargoes probably already go mostly East across the Pacific to North America, a shorter way than going West through the Suez Canal and further West from there, and therefore use normally the ports on the Western seaboard of the USA, Mexico and Canada. So that may stay more or less the same as before, while countries in West Asia, India, Vietnam, Thailand, for example and also the Gulf States, with the Suez Canal shut off for any significant period of time, either having to go West around Africa or East, across much of the Indian and the Pacific Oceans might not be a great choice either way, or bring much extra business, or congestion, to California, etc. on the Western Seaboard

          In other words: it probably is too soon to tell what it may be the economic fallout of this snag, except that probably prices will go up; the real questions then being: the prices of what, by how much, and where.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

        • #2353350
          wavy
          AskWoody Plus

          Interesting times for global logistic managers.

          Is that a hint of arbitrage in the air ?

          🍻

          Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2353660
          rc primak
          AskWoody_MVP

          The Port of Los Angeles is already backed up. Many ships are at anchor waiting to get in.

          -- rc primak

        • #2353684
          Kathy Stevens
          AskWoody Lounger

          Well, it looks like container ships scheduled to sail from Asia to the US East and Gulf coasts are deserting south around the horn of Africa.

          Conversely, liquefied natural gas and petroleum tankers sailing  from the US gulf and east coasts are diverting south around Africa on their way to Asia.

      • #2353291
        anonymous
        Guest

        It is most likely that a pair of Egyptian canal pilots, who actually had steering command when the collision occurred transiting the Suez Canal, are the ones having the really bad day — instead of the ship’s captain.  But the analogy of putting MS in temporary full control of the system once a month for the CU is a compelling one — MS didn’t gain much glory in March.

      • #2353306
        anonymous
        Guest

        Call me paranoid but I believe this was no mistake.

        Did you look at the position the ship got stuck and its weight?

        If you ask me, it was either Jupiter’s great red spot winds or a spot-on manuver.

         

         

      • #2353329
        Tom
        AskWoody Plus

        If cheap tat from China can’t get to Europe or the UK perhaps they’ll realise that they don’t really need it.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2354222
          anonymous
          Guest

          Bravo! “Cheap tat from China”…I love it; are you British?

      • #2353370
        mpw
        AskWoody Plus

        I found this on the internet.

        OK. Hear me out.

        suez-meme

        HP Pavilion Desktop TP01-0050 – 64 bit
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      • #2353376
        mpw
        AskWoody Plus

        suez-2

        HP Pavilion Desktop TP01-0050 – 64 bit
        Windows 10 Home Version 20H2
        OS build 19042.867
        Windows Defender and Windows Firewall
        Microsoft Office Home and Business 2019
        -Version 2102 (Build 13801.20360 C2R)

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      • #2353380
        Geo
        AskWoody Plus
        • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Geo.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2353353
        anonymous
        Guest

        COULD NEVER HAPPEN IN THE PANAMA CANAL ? COULD IT !

        • #2353493
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Yes, Anonymous, it can happen too in the Panama Canal. If it happened there and in Suez at the same time, then we’ll might survive OK on rice and potatoes for a while, if having already enough rice and potatoes at home before all that. Unless we are prepared to buy gift-wrapped lettuce heads from California, and other extravagantly expensive veggies, nuts and fruit, not to mention something exotic, like meat or dairy products, all sent by some very expensive means of transportation (given the extraordinarily high cost of gasoline and diesel fuel). Then we could seat convivially around the family table and told each other “enjoy!”, or “bon appétit” before tucking into the contents of our delicious bowls of white rice.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2353662
            rc primak
            AskWoody_MVP

            What we in the US have plenty of is wheat and corn. And soybeans.

            Cross country trucking is actually a bargain compared with our domestic rail freight rates.

            -- rc primak

            • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by rc primak.
            • #2353683
              OscarCP
              AskWoody Plus

              rc primak: “Cross country trucking is actually a bargain” you think is an appropriate answer to my comment? Well, yes, when oil is cheap, not when gasoline, diesel fuel and other oil derivatives become hyper-expensive and hard to get, as in the case of a prolonged blockade by errant ships of both the Suez and the Panama canals. And that goes for cars, trucks, trains and aeroplanes. Or were, you perhaps, born after the two oil crises of the 70’s and never heard of them? The hypothetical situation I was referring to could be worse than those two historical ones. The USA was itself an oil producer as big then as it is today, but the oil companies quickly raised the price of oil and its derivatives to “international prices” as quick as quick can be, after the prices of oil were raised artificially by OPEC in response to the support of this and other countries for Israel in the Israeli-Arab conflicts of that time.

              Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

              • #2355590
                rc primak
                AskWoody_MVP

                I appreciate your point of view. But it remains an economic reality that long distance trucking has supplanted most rail and river transport within the Continental United States. That has happened for a reason — trucking is usually for most things cheaper and faster.

                We no longer make a lot of the steel we use in the US. That was one driver behind the economies of rail freight. That and autos. Both now travel more by road than by rail now. There has to be an economic reason for this, and there is such a reason.

                For oil and natural gas, it became cheaper to build pipelines than to use either rails or trucks.

                For North America, domestic production becomes realistic when International Cartels raise the price of oil too high. The Saudis and the Venezuelans know this. And the price never goes high enough to make rails competitive with trucking. So far at least. (Maybe this paragraph is too political for the Lounge.)

                Which brings us back to the Suez Canal. There are reasons it’s actually cheaper to send supertankers around Africa than to widen the Suez Canal to accommodate them.  Same with the Panama Canal. And for transport of oil and natural gas from the Mideast to Europe, pipelines would be cheaper, if they could be guaranteed against acts of war or terror. For North and South America, of course pipelines are out of the question.

                For most normal freight, the Suez and Panama Canals offer real economic advantages. And hence they become chokepoints if anything like the present issue happens to them.

                My main point is, there are built-in checks and balances against a crisis of the sort we have been told was about to happen with oil prices for decades now, ever really happening.  It turns out, so far the supplies of oil in North America haven’t been as limited as was assumed in the 1970’s.

                And there are workarounds if major chokepoints become closed for extended periods. Yes, prices will go higher (though this has not happened for oil and gas, adjusted for inflation). But markets do have ways to stabilize themselves when faced with supply chain disruptions. (Cue the comments about the coronavirus.) This is an ongoing part of how free markets work.

                Is that a more reasonable answer?

                Of course, all of this has no meaning if it’s MY shipment which is stuck on one of those cargo ships which can’t get through the Suez Canal for awhile. That’s the risk of doing business in a global trade community.

                -- rc primak

                • This reply was modified 6 days, 13 hours ago by rc primak.
                • This reply was modified 6 days, 13 hours ago by rc primak.
      • #2353411
        hbushell
        AskWoody Lounger

        I think it’s about time this guy does us a favor. He’s destroyed Tokyo so many times he owes us a big one.

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        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2353527
        PaulK
        AskWoody Lounger

        The YouTube BlancoLirio Channel is a highly respected source of accurate aviation incident information. Juan Browne, the man behind the (control wheel), is a First Officer on Boeing 777s for one of the mainline US airlines.

        Here, he posts about this water-borne topic.

        As you read the posts on his channel be sure also to read the accompanying Comments. There always is intelligent additional information from experts in the various matters discussed.

        Edited to add: But, there also are comments by trollers and unintelligentsia. Ignore them.

        • #2353542
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Interesting video, PaulK. The name of the ship is “EVER GIVEN”, but in the video it is shown, to illustrate the discussion, in pictures where it carries the name “EVERGREEN”, which is peculiar.

          More importantly, the commentary about possible causes mentions the weather conditions: strong winds pushing on the enormous side of the boat across its intended course, possibly beyond the crew’s ability to steer it properly, combined with very bad visibility, because the wind was part of a sandstorm. This brings in my own mind the question of what are the protocols in place in the Suez Canal defining under which conditions a huge ship like this may be allowed to enter and transit through it. One possible factor, mentioned in the video, is that as a consequence of the Covid-19 pandemic crews work uninterruptedly for unusually long stretches of time at sea without proper breaks on land. So that looks like a lack of proper maritime regulations to prevent overworked crews to operate such huge ships. Which brigs up the question: how good are the captain and the rest of the crew? And the closely related one: under which country’s flag does the ship sail?

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2353550
            OscarCP
            AskWoody Plus

            Of the questions I posed at the end of my previous comment, the one about which flag the ship sails under, although perhaps not very obviously so can, nevertheless, be quite relevant to this discussion, because the country that flag belongs to is responsible for monitoring and enforcing acceptable standards of maintenance, crew training and degree of expertise, working conditions, etc. Shipping companies, in order to save money, tend to register their ships in countries where it is not only less expensive to register them, but also where the authorities in charge are less strict in the application of those standards, something that can also be expensive for the shipping companies if it is always done by the book, as explained in this article:

            https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28558480

            This is a really old problem.

            Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

            1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2353565
            Paul T
            AskWoody MVP

            Ever Given is the ship name, it’s on the bow.
            Evergreen is the company that owns it.

            cheers, Paul

            1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2353687
          PaulK
          AskWoody Lounger

          For the BIG BIG global picture, see here. Zoomable, sensitive.

      • #2353568
        Fred
        AskWoody Plus

        DuchBuildPyramid

        ~ ~ ~
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        • #2353581
          Microfix
          AskWoody MVP

          That ‘Sphinx’ of geographical incorrectness as the
          suez canal runs from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean.

          W10, the itch you simply cannot scratch!
          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2353692
            OscarCP
            AskWoody Plus

            Microfix: Geographical incorrectness seems to be the order of the day, or week, I think, starting with that of letting a huge ship under clearly very adverse weather conditions enter, most likely unsafely in this case, the geographically incorrect location for this ship to be, at the Red Sea entrance to the Suez Canal, in the first place.

            As to that pile of containers, I do not think that is really another Sphinx, but the fourth pyramid of Giza.

            Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

      • #2353584
        Chris Greaves
        AskWoody Plus

        Around about the 4m30s mark you calculate the sail area. Why not continue and consider that

        (1) On a 400m ship, wind gusts can apply locally. Not like a sailing ship with one huge sail mid-ships.

        (2) Suppose that the gust began acting on the bow of The Sail before it began acting on the stern, or before it began acting on the entire length.

        (3) Then recognize that the energy in a moving fluid (in this case the wind) is proportional to the CUBE of the velocity, and that while the winds might be 40 knots, a gust could be 80 knots. From your aviation background you must know this.

        (4) Twice the velocity gives eight times the energy, focused on (say) the bow, and there she goes!

        Cheers

        Chris

        Unless you're in a hurry, just wait.

        • #2353587
          Paul T
          AskWoody MVP

          Or someone was asleep at the wheel!

          cheers, Paul

          2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2353695
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Chris Greaves: Actually speed cubed is wind power (or that of moving fluids in general: water, etc.)

          That is to say the amount of power delivered per second, measured, for example, in Jules per second, also known as Watts.

          But OK, I get your point. And it is a good one.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

        • #2353860
          doriel
          AskWoody Lounger

          Chris Greaves wrote:

          (4) Twice the velocity gives eight times the energy, focused on (say) the bow, and there she goes!

          I thought the kinetic energy euqation goes

          E(k) = (m*v^2):2

          (mass * squared velocity) / 2

          So is it squared or cubed?

          Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 1809 Enterprise

          HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

          • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by doriel.
          • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by doriel. Reason: text formatting
      • #2353610
        wavy
        AskWoody Plus

        I was wondering if the anchor mechanism could be used to unstuck the ship in the Suez. Somebody else was too.

        Somebody-else-

        I think the ship might not be strong enough to do this, stress on part of the structure that were not designed for it.

        🍻

        Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
        Attachments:
        • #2353696
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          I wish people made up their minds: Is it “EVER GIVEN”, or is it “EVERGREEN”?

          More about this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ever_Given

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

          • #2353702
            anonymous
            Guest

            Ever Given is the name of the ship.

            Evergreen is the name of the company that operates the ship

            • #2353736
              OscarCP
              AskWoody Plus

              Absolutely. Only that the pictures show EVERGREEN written along the whole side of the ship, in huge letters. Usually, I believe, it is the name of the ship that is written in large letters on its side, to be most visible and so reveal without any ambiguity which particular ship this is. The shipping line, that usually owns several ships, in smaller letters, if at all.

              Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

              • #2353740
                cyberSAR
                AskWoody Plus

                Check out the name on the stern and bow. That’s where it counts in my experience.

              • #2353785
                anonymous
                Guest

                For the fifty years that I have been dealing with Evergreen they have always had there name in large letters on the side of their vessels and containers.

                1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2353628
        ve2mrx
        AskWoody Plus

        That appears to be an unmitigated single-point of failure! Ignored because it didn’t fail for so long that is was assumed “safe”…

        What single-point of failure are hidden in *YOUR* systems? Something to check out next week!

        Martin

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2353698
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          ve2mrx: “That appears to be an unmitigated single-point of failure! Ignored because it didn’t fail for so long that is was assumed “safe”…

          Most likely there were more than one. I commented on this here #2353542 and in the comment that immediately follows it.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2353680
        anonymous
        Guest

        US Navy offered assistance this morning or yesterday.  Lots of imagery there.

        So weird, a gust of wind supposedly caused this most excellent park job.  First time ever.  Hmmm…

        I guess they’re going to start unloading the ship but have to find floating cranes since there are none in Egypt.

        They should get one of those giant Hoover Crafts and blow it back on course.  Maybe ten.

        Gather up everyone with authority to do something, throw away their phones and the ship will be unstuck in 24 hours.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2353714
        Chris Greaves
        AskWoody Plus

        Chris Greaves: Actually speed cubed is wind power (or that of moving fluids in general: water, etc.)

        That is to say the amount of power delivered per second, measured, for example, in Jules per second, also known as Watts.

        But OK, I get your point. And it is a good one.

        Well, I think “Power” is “Energy per unit time”, so Energy and Power are both proportional to the cube of the velocity. Same deal, no?

        Cheers

        Chris

        Unless you're in a hurry, just wait.

        • #2353731
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Well, I think “Power” is “Energy per unit time”, so Energy and Power are both proportional to the cube of the velocity. Same deal, no?

          Well, Chris Greaves: If we are going to be really technically precise here (and why not?), what matters is the force of the wind, proportional to the square, in this case of wind speed. Because it would be the force exerted by the wind when it blows mostly at one end or the other of the ship, therefore away from the center of mass (c.o.m), that would generate the torque (meaning this force times a lever arm length equal to the distance of the force (*) to the ship’s center of mass) that might turn the ship around from its proper orientation right ahead, if this torque is larger than that exerted by the lateral thrusters at either end of the ship. Assuming that the ship was being maneuvered properly, using the rudder and those thrusters as needed.

          Energy, power and force are not the same, but in this case, for the same wind speed, and over 1 second in the case of power, their quantities are either equal, or else proportional to each other.

          (*) Actually an area integral over all the points where the wind blows on the ship’s surfaces exposed to it, and therefore at various speeds and distances from the c.o.m.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

      • #2353790
        Kathy Stevens
        AskWoody Lounger

        An outstanding article on how, “The recent blockage of traffic through the Suez Canal illustrates just how diverse the causes of oil flow disruption can be” may be found by following the link   https://www.iea.org/commentaries/suez-canal-closure-highlights-asia-s-growing-dependence-on-eastward-oil-flows?utm_campaign=IEA%20newsletters&utm_source=SendGrid&utm_medium=Email

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2353808
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          A good article quoted by Kathy Stevens: among other things it explains that there is at present a glut of oil because of the pandemic-related substantial decrease in the normal economic activity that usually requires a larger amount of such things as oil-derived light fuels, petrochemicals and plastics. It is a relief to know that, I must say, because if the situation were the same as during the OPEC oil embargoes of the 70’s, even with greener economies now in much of North America and Europe, a repeat of those “out of gas” days would still be, possibly not as bad it was as then, but all the same, pretty bad today.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

      • #2353794

        OK, some may think this a bit extreme, but with all the howling about how many billions of dollars this is costing _each day_;

        1. What is the cumulative figure when you add in the cost of the tanker?
        2. Can the whole thing be solved by evacuating the ship, the area for several miles around, and
        3. Sending in a Seal team, putting in some shaped charges, doing a controlled, inward-directed demolition, and dragging the pieces away afterwards
        4. Letting Lloyd’s or whoever insured the ship and it’s contents pay out to all affected.

        It should take (or have taken, by now) three or four days, if done properly. (The demolition and clearance, not the insurance payout. THAT would take forever.)

        Of course, on the other hand,

        1. Is there anything irreplaceable aboard?
        2. Since it has “show-us-the-money-and-get-out-of-here” Panamanian registry, it may not be insured at all.  (Same with Liberia-they don’t give a Tinker’s **** about how safe or seaworthy the ship is-they’d register a raft for $50,000, probably a lot less.)
        3. The insurance payout…you think it’s a mess NOW….

        Sorry, but watching this ****show of seamanly ineptitude and blundering for days now, it was just a thought. Unraveling the Gordian knot, and all that.

        Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit ESU, Dell Latitude E6330, Intel CORE i5 "Ivy Bridge", 12GB RAM, Group "0Patch", Multiple Air-Gapped backup drives in different locations. Linux Mint Greenhorn
        --
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        -Robert Heinlein

        • #2353800
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Not only the corresponding authorities, in flag-of-convenience countries that register mostly foreign ships, may be less than diligent in insurance-related matters, but they may not be really stellar at monitoring proper regular maintenance and, if required or asked to, providing competent crew members.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

      • #2353813
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus
      • #2353853
        doriel
        AskWoody Lounger

        Allow me a little joke to lighten the situation. We all make mistakes sometimes.

        Door blocker from IKEA. 2 EUR approx.

        suez

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      • #2353926
        Kathy Stevens
        AskWoody Lounger

        FREE AT LAST.

        FREE AT LAST.

        THE EVERGREEN’S EVER GIVEN IS FREE AT LAST.

      • #2353971
        Chris Greaves
        AskWoody Plus

        Unless you're in a hurry, just wait.

      • #2353973
        Chris Greaves
        AskWoody Plus

        Chris Greaves wrote:

        (4) Twice the velocity gives eight times the energy, focused on (say) the bow, and there she goes!

        I thought the kinetic energy euqation goes

        E(k) = (m*v^2):2

        (mass * squared velocity) / 2

        So is it squared or cubed?

        • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by doriel.
        • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by doriel. Reason: text formatting

        As I was taught, oh so long ago …

        For a particle (a motor car, a rain drop, a molecule of oxygen, a club, etc.) The Kinetic Energy of a particle is indeed 1/2 emm vee squared.

        Then, I was told, think of a river of water flowing at 12 knots instead of its usual 4 knots.

        Each particle has increased energy given as the square of the velocity.

        So twelve knots is three times four knots, and three-squared is nine times the energy for each particle/molecule of water.

        So far so good.

        But then (drum roll) at twelve knots there are three times as many particles per unit time hitting the pickup truck. Sideways. So factor in another three times and you have the velocity (of a fluid) cubed.

        That is why so many parents-and-kids get swept off the ford when the creek is running high, (partly) why police use water-cannon to knock down crowds, why wind speeds of 40 knots (right now in Bonavista) are eight times worse than winds at 20 knots, etc etc.

        I could be wrong, though.

        Cheers

        Chris

        Unless you're in a hurry, just wait.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2353984
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Chris Graves: It is the relative velocity (between object and fluid) that is squared. If both are moving together, for example, the relative velocity is zero, so is its square, its cube and, as a result of this, the power, force. torque, etc. are also zero. The object, ship in this case, if allowed to, just goes with the flow like a cork floating along a stream.

          This also applies if the fluid is extremely rarefied, as in the case of the air at the great heights where artificial satellites orbit the Earth. But because they move at several thousands of m/s, their great velocity relative to the air makes up for the low density of the latter to the point that the force so exerted, air drag, is a main factor in determining the orbits the satellites follow and their stability. Something that has given me one of my many excuses for earning my daily crust while doing things I really like to do and will do for free, if necessary — just don’t tell anybody I told you so.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2354061
            Chris Greaves
            AskWoody Plus

            “It is the relative velocity (between object and fluid) that is squared.”
            Hi Oscar, in my jab at sail-area I was discussing the implied (although stated everywhere else on the web) cross-winds. The winds were said to be from the west, the ship traveling North along the canal, so the wind is moving at 90 degrees (roughly) to the ship.
            Besides that, the speed of any wind worth the name relative to a canal-bound super-freighter will be relatively fast. (I suspect the freighter was at about 10 kts and the wind anything from a steady 40kts (dust storm) gusting to 80 kts, so even a tail-wind would be 30kts to 70kts in terms of relative speed.
            When pickup trucks ford a stream, the velocities are always roughly at right-angles, are they not?

            “This also applies if the fluid is extremely rarefied, …”

            Right. But our super-freighter is NOT in orbit, it is IN the Suez Canal (or was last time I checked). Under our conditions one object can be considered solid (the huge sail of containers), and so we need consider only the sea-level (trust me on this one) wind, whose energy we discuss. You know what it feels like to hold your palm outside the window of a car traveling at 40-80 mph, I am sure. Most young boys have pretended that the hand is a wing and have experimented feeling the lift as their wrist rotates the palm.
            Cheers
            Chris

            Unless you're in a hurry, just wait.

            • #2354066
              doriel
              AskWoody Lounger

              The area, that wind is pushing on, is giant – on the superfreighter. Thus pushing the ship sideways. I have experinces only with small yachts, but its not easy to be aware of all factors. We talk about giant masses here and it takes some time to “manouver”. Ships like this must “hit the breaks” few kilometers before it reaches its destination. The momentum of the ship and water are enormous.

              I agree, that on thrice the speed, the number of particles hitting the ship should be multipled three times. So it looks like the velocity is cubed, but in fact, only the multiplying factir is cubed, not the velocity itself. But definately with twice speed, the energy is 8 times greater, etc..

              cube

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              • #2354209
                OscarCP
                AskWoody Plus

                Actually there is some confusion in this discussion, that now I realize  have omitted to clarify: It is not power or kinetic energy that is the important thing here, but the exchange of momentum between the fluid, air in this case) and the object (here, the ship.)

                By the principle of conservation of momentum due to internal interactions in a system (the air and the ship, in this case) the sum of the change in momentum of both parts is zero. Going from there, one finally arrives to the correct formula, where the velocity is squared, not cubed.

                For a more complete and also a clear explanation of this see this article:

                https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/momntm.html

                Note that the density is a constant of the fluid regardless of whether it is moving or in repose relative to, in this case, the ship.

                Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group W (ex B) & macOS Mojave + Linux (Mint)

                1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2353993
        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

         

        The ship is now free and motoring towards a stop at the lake in the canal where it can be inspected and, depending on its condition, allowed to continue to its final destination in Europe, or, after some emergency repairs, be sent to someplace where it can be fully repaired.

        But this is not the end of all troubles, as the great backlog of delayed cargo, the multi-thousands of millions of dollars, or euros (your pick) already lost, the insurance claims and all the other costs, some the consequence of those named ones, will continue for quite some time and result in further consequences to be felt to some extent by a significant number of people that has had nothing whatever to do with this mess, further down the line. Not a major world-spanning catastrophe, but not something one would want to happen again, either.

        Many questions remain unanswered and they are being investigated, but one that I think is pretty basic is this: why was such a huge ship allowed to enter the canal at a time of extremely adverse weather conditions, clearly unsafe for navigation there, with high winds that were driving a sandstorm? Why wasn’t the ship ordered by the Canal Authority to wait until the sandstorm was past?

        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56567985

        Someone asked here, and I answered, what if the Suez Canal and the Panama Canal were both blocked at the same time? In the very strange world we are reminded by this incident of the “Ever Given” that we are living in now, such an unpleasant double “treat” is not impossible, or even that unlikely. Imagine a case where one of the two Canals is blocked and all ships, including several of these supper extra immensely huge ones are diverted to the other Canal, and one of these gets then stuck in there. Or that happens, so all ships from East of Suez and bound for the Atlantic, a well as those bound for the Indian or Pacific Oceans, now all go East, and then one or two or three of the biggest ones get stuck in the Strait of Malacca (*), the third possible maritime choking point. You ever heard of the Great Depression? Well, by comparison, those could have been the really good times.

        (*) From Wikipedia:

        “Malaccamax
        As the name suggests, Malaccamax ships are the largest ships that can pass through the Strait off Malacca which is 25 m (82 ft) deep. As per the current permissible limits, a Malaccamax vessel can have a maximum length of 400 m (1,312ft), beam of 59 m (193.5 ft), and draught of 14.5 m (47.5 ft).”

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      • #2354001
        Fred
        AskWoody Plus

        heard of the Great Depression? Well, by comparison, those could have been the really good times.

        Perhaps man is at his very limits of being able to destroy his own habitat in the most efficient way??
        In the mean time it’s a fascinating and unreal-like view to see these ships in the port of Rotterdam, in the “Europoort 2, outer harbor south docks”

        ~ ~ ~
        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2354047
        hbushell
        AskWoody Lounger

        I don’t think it’s too late to thank the real heroes of this story..fbc10e8ab512dddbd6e20fc021b7b34ab7aae95ff5a5c7c54dac1a5569d1c39c

        Attachments:
      • #2354055
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        I don’t think it’s too late to thank the real heroes of this story.

        The real hero of the story is the Moon bringing a Tide.

        • #2354075
          doriel
          AskWoody Lounger

          I thinks its Rotterdam, where are periodically cleaning the seabed (sea bottom) in the port. It is being messed by dirt, meaning its not that deep as is should be. There are floating “vacuum cleanres” designed to suck the dirt and sand. Its called dredging, I dont wanna post youtube link and bring trackers here.
          Some port were designed decades ago and today ships are greater than thought before.

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      • #2354076
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        Now come the time for claims for damages for $B against Evergreen of the Japanese ship owner shoei kisen kaisha

      • #2354078
        Fred
        AskWoody Plus

        I thinks its Rotterdam, where are periodically cleaning the seabed (sea bottom) in the port. It is being messed by dirt, meaning its not that deep as is should be. There are floating “vacuum cleanres” designed to suck the dirt and sand. Its called dredging, I dont wanna post youtube link and bring trackers here.
        Some port were designed decades ago and today ships are greater than thought before.

        [@]Doriel Thank you, finally.  “dredging” in english is “baggeren” in dutch, quite a special expertise

        ~ ~ ~
        • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by Fred.
        • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by Fred.
        • #2354194
          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          According to “Business Insider” “The Ever Given was freed Monday after spending approximately six days stuck in the Suez Canal. The Suez Canal Authority last week employed the Dutch dredging and heavy lift company to assist. A dredger known as a Mashhour and more than a dozen tugboats helped free the ship.

          Adding to Dorie’s comment on the “true heroes” of yesterday’s release and on the dredging by a Dutch company, as dredging was a critical part of the solution of the super huge enormous ship stuck for several days in the Suez Canal: That it was a Dutch company doing the dredging should be no surprise, as the Dutch are the world champions of dredging and also of building the most advanced and possibly the most extensive system of sea flood barriers there is. The country not being call “The Netherlands”, i.e. “Low Lands”, for nothing:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_control_in_the_Netherlands

          Particularly remarkable are what is known as “The Delta Works, enclosing a large area where three major rivers have their deltas and empty into the sea:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oosterscheldekering

          The Delta Works (Dutch: Deltawerken) is a series of construction projects in the southwest of the Netherlands to protect a large area of land around the Rhine-Meuse-Scheldt delta from the sea.
          Works have been declared one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World by the American Society of Civil Engineers.

          And this supercomputer-controlled one prevents flooding in and around one of the main port cities of Europe, Rotterdam:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeslantkering

          This “Financial Times” article is titled: “Can the Dutch Save the World?”

          https://www.ft.com/content/44c2d2ee-422c-11ea-bdb5-169ba7be433d

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          • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by OscarCP.
      • #2354081
        Fred
        AskWoody Plus

        Now come the time for claims for damages for $B against Evergreen of the Japanese ship owner shoei kisen kaisha

        Insurances : UK P&I Club to consider ‘all valid claims’ against “Ever Given” owner,
        https://www.insuranceinsider.com/article/28bz65ox7r1zeeukokoao/uk-p-i-club-to-consider-all-valid-claims-against-ever-given-owner

        ~ ~ ~
        • #2354148
          Alex5723
          AskWoody Plus

          I read somewhere the the insurance was at $200M way far from the real damage.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2354268
            Paul T
            AskWoody MVP

            Where? You know we don’t take your word for it.  🙂

            cheers, Paul

            • #2354285
              Fred
              AskWoody Plus

              Did you work for the P&I Ships Insurance companies?
              The delayed damages can be far beyond that, only (as usual) most of it cannot be claimed.

              ~ ~ ~
      • #2354628
        Kathy Stevens
        AskWoody Lounger

        Excellent article in the Wall Street Journal about California container ports being hit by growing delays at  https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-imports-are-stuck-on-ships-floating-just-off-los-angeles-11617183002    .

        The article provides insight into how container traffic moves within the US.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2354639
          wavy
          AskWoody Plus

          I am wondering what determines where in the queue a ship is. Is it a pay per place ? I suspect this as ‘some’ ships are said to have been waiting.

          🍻

          Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
          • #2354668
            Kathy Stevens
            AskWoody Lounger

            There are three major port complexes on the US west coast:

            • the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach
            • Seattle-Tacoma, and
            • Oakland

            The ports handle a variety of vessel types including:

            • Container Ships,
            • Tankers,
            • Bulk Cargo vessels,
            • General Cargo ships,
            • Vehicle/RoRo carriers,
            • Refrigerated Cargo vessels, and
            • Passenger Vessels.

            Each vessel type requires specialized equipment to load and discharge their cargo and thus container ships are normally not accommodated at a bulk terminal, etc.

            The Port of Los Angles alone has seven privately operated container terminals (docks) (WBCT Yang Ming, WBCT China Shipping, TRAPAC, YUSEN, Everport, Fenix Marine, and APMT).

            In some cases, a container terminal is operated by a shipping line such as Everport that primarily handles Evergreen vessels while others are open to a variety of carriers.

            The sequence of vessel birthing at an individual terminal is determined by the terminal operator and the vessel owners and is driven be operating efficiency/costs.

            And birthing sequencing decisions can be complicated. For container vessels considerations include but are not limited to:

            • Are the gantries large enough to discharge/load the containers?
            • Is there sufficient trucks/rail capacity available to remove the containers from the terminal?
            • Will the return cargo be available after the inbound containers are offloaded?
            • The cost of having a mega vessel stand idle at anchorage while a less expensive vessel occupies the dock.
            1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2354645
        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        The story and consequences of the blocking of the Suez Canal by a gigantic ship is now being told in greater detail, its consequences, both current and yet to come, more informedly discussed, but a mystery as to exactly what was going on aboard the “Ever Given” continues, waiting to be resolved and then to be made public, as it should be, to learn all the lessons that need to be learned an to make the politicians running governments move to take the necessary measures too ensure that this is not likely to happen again. The links to three articles, with excerpts of some paragraphs I believe to be among those of greater general interest, follow:

        https://www.businessinsider.com/how-ever-given-ship-freed-suez-canal-2021-3

        Toilet paper, coffee, and furniture are among the industries most affected by the Ever Given. IKEA, an international furniture company, said it had more than 100 containers on board the Ever Given and expected supply chain delays from the crisis.

        https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/opinion/ever-given-ship-suez-canal.html

        Back on the serious side: The Ever Given has shined a spotlight on many issues of global sea shipping, which still accounts for 70 percent of international trade. Container ships have been steadily growing in recent years, so that those of the size of Ever Given can’t fit into the Panama Canal and can only barely squeeze through the Straits of Malacca. Yet bigger and bigger ships will soon be afloat, all sailing under the curious international mishmash of the way oceangoing shipping operates — the Ever Given is owned by a Japanese company, operated by a Taiwan company, registered in Panama and managed by a Germany company. The Taiwanese company, Evergreen Marine, has 11 ships the size of Ever Given, all their names beginning with “Ever G.” ”

        Some of us here might be able to read this article in today’s “Washington Post”, a remarkably well-written, step by step story of the event, the drama that ended in its release, and an analysis of current and future consequences, told from the Egyptians’ side and of those of other nationalities involved in the efforts to free the gigantic ship from its trap in the sandy bank of the Canal where it had encrusted itself under what, to me at least, looked like seriously hazardous weather conditions.

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/suez-canal-ever-given-ship/2021/03/31/8849b85c-9154-11eb-aadc-af78701a30ca_story.html

        At 7:08 a.m., with the sun an hour above the desert horizon, the Ever Given moved into one of the canal’s one-lane arteries and approached a bend to the right. Satellite data shows the ship started to weave from bank to bank at more than 15 miles an hour, much faster than the canal’s speed limit of less than 10 mph.

        What was happening on the Ever Given’s bridge, where the captain and two certified Suez Canal pilots were on duty, remains a mystery. But some maritime and canal officials have noted that a wind of up to 35 mph was blowing from the south, pressing against the wall of containers.

        “For more than half an hour, the ship veered from side to side, according to the satellite tracking, narrowly missing the banks until its stern seemed to brush the left-hand shore. The bow instantly sheered sharply to the right, and 400 million pounds of ship plowed into the sandy eastern bank of the canal at 13 mph.”

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      • #2354701
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        Now come the time for claims for damages for $B against Evergreen of the Japanese ship owner shoei kisen kaisha

        ..Egypt will likely seek $1 billion in compensation for physical and financial damages resulting from the grounding of the massive cargo ship Ever Given. ..

      • #2355127
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        Uri Geller claims ship in Suez Canal was moved by mind power

        (Posted before April 1 🙂

        ..The illusionist has been instructing his followers to focus on moving the Ever Given at the same time everyday – at 11:11.
        In numerology, the time 11:11 is believed to hold spiritual significance. Many will make a wish or hold a prayer at that minute, as it is seen as an auspicious moment.
        The showman claims that the world’s collective mind power – not the 14 tug boats attempting to dislodge the ship – already moved it “a bit.”..

        • #2355134
          The Surfing Pensioner
          AskWoody Plus

          Any chance that Uri and his followers would be prepared to focus the world’s collective mind power on the functionality of MS’ future patches?

          • #2355141
            Alex5723
            AskWoody Plus

            I don’t know if he has the time as he is now engaged in ‘fixing’ the Royal family.

            Uri Geller vows to fix ‘broken’ Royal Family with the power of his mind
            EXCLUSIVE: Mind-bending Uri is ‘disappointed with rift’ in Royals but thinks a ‘wave of positive thoughts’ can help them heal – but he needs your help to do it

      • #2355182
        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        Years ago, the followers around the world of an Indian swami that was their Grand Meditator and at his prompting, concentrated their individual cosmic energies through meditation into a single giant pulse of tremendous supernatural intensity, in order to end the perpetual wars happening here and there all the time since forever and to fix their devastating consequences. Now, see what that has taken us? Isn’t that something?

        What I don’t see, but dearly hope is going on now, out of the sight of prying eyes, are the necessary accords among the main seagoing powers to update the Law of the Sea so as to stop the convenient way for the shipping companies and traders using them, but potentially very inconvenient for everybody else, of using ever larger mega ships that can cause catastrophic collapses of the whole world trade by blocking simultaneously just three strategic choke points: at the Suez and Panama Canals and the Malacca strait. You don’t think this is likely? Come take a nice drive along the Washington DC Beltway at either rush hour,  early in the morning, or late in the afternoon, and you may understand these things differently right afterwards.

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