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  • Is Microsoft forcing Win7 customers to upgrade to Win10?

    Home Forums AskWoody blog Is Microsoft forcing Win7 customers to upgrade to Win10?

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      • #42146
        woody
        Manager

        Timely question from KC: Have you heard of Microsoft forcing Windows 7 users to upgrade to Windows 10?  It seems to have happened on my home computer
        [See the full post at: Is Microsoft forcing Win7 customers to upgrade to Win10?]

      • #42147
        Anonymous
        Guest

        I suppose MS will keep trying new tactics to get users to start the W10 upgrade, however the acceptance of the EULA seems to be treated by MS as just a perfunctory “click” to get you to start the upgrade. One would think there would be an opportunity for the user to actually peruse/read the EULA before acceptance. Legally, how binding is a EULA, the acceptance of which was secured without the counterparty given the opportunity to read the agreement?

      • #42148
        Noel Carboni
        Guest

        Such moves smack of deperation, and the desperation must have a root cause…

        Software engineers – at least the engineers I know and have known – are not normally that devious.

        Is it possible that Microsoft management has told employees they’ll all be laid off if they don’t find SOME way to reach management’s “1 billion devices” goal?

        In any case, Woody, your comments are SPOT ON about this being WAY beneath the company we’ve learned to trust to be a Good Partner over the last 40 years. It is not just wrong, it’s VERY wrong.

        -Noel

      • #42149
        anonymous
        Guest

        Yes, Microsoft IS forcing Win7 customers to upgrade to Win10, and it really annoys me. Tonight, my wife’s laptop (without any permission from her) was automatically installed with Windows 10 while she was cooking dinner. I specifically set up her laptop long ago NOT TO INSTALL recommended updates — and to give me the opportunity to decide when/what to download and install.

        This is really unbelievable. Windows/Microsoft is acting like a full-fledged virus, forcing people to upgrade without prior notice or any opt-out buttons. If someone set up a class-action law suit to SUE Microsoft, I would sign it immediately. I am still fuming.

        Microsoft’s official announcements over the past year are also “pure lies.” They blame the users for inadvertently clicking the wrong buttons or not understanding the options for turning off the update. WHAT NONSENSE. This is a draconian move by Microsoft. I am fuming……..please tell me how I can join a community effort to stop Microsoft from such blantant invasion of my privacy…….sooo soooo mad.

      • #42150
        daniel
        Guest

        I’m on mobile data only so upgrading and rolling back would have to be factored in.
        I think I might phone them and see if I can get my future upgrade rights in the form of a voucher number.

      • #42151
        Greycoat
        Guest

        I have noticed that when it comes to upgrading third-party Windows applications in Windows 7 that sometimes you lose features with upgrade as a software vendor attempts to entice you to buy the paid application that has the feature over the free application that once did. I would not be surprised that over time we start to lose features in Window 7 & 8.1 as Microsoft tries to “subtly” move us to upgrade to Windows 10 even though we paid for these features at time of purchase with promise that OS would be on extended support until 2020 for Windows 7 and later for 8.1. Sad but true we are at Microsoft’s whim & mercy…until we get the “courage” to transition to something else. I’ll probably stay with Windows 7 until 2020 but after that I’m going to something else like Linux Mint or Manjaro. Microsoft as a service is going in a direction I don’t care to go or will go.

      • #42152
        Tim
        Guest

        My PC is upgrading to Windows 10 as I am writing this. I have consistently received the popup asking if I wanted to upgrade and always just closed the window. I got the popup this morning again and closed it as always. About a half hour ago I came down to the room my PC is in and on my monitor it is showing ‘Upgrading Windows’. I never gave the OK to install this upgrade. Talk about over stepping your bounds Microsoft!

      • #42153
        woody
        Manager

        Yep, that’s what’s happening with the new notification – if you “X” out of it, you’re giving Microsoft permission to install Windows 10.

        That’s one of the lowest blows Microsoft’s ever delivered.

        Anyway, when you get the EULA, just click “Decline” and the update will roll back. If you do get upgraded, you can roll back within 30 days.

      • #42154
        woody
        Manager

        I wish I knew of a good way to get back. Unfortunately, it looks like Microsoft has every legal right to pull these shady moves.

        ‘Course I ain’t a lawyer.

      • #42155
        woody
        Manager

        I may be wrong, but I think the EULA is now a click to FINISH the upgrade. That is, I think the upgrade is put together and ready to install on a reboot – and only clicking Deny on the EULA will get your system back.

      • #42156
        louis
        Guest

        @Woody,

        Now that we’ve become aware of this X problem, maybe it’s time for you to do another Josh Mayfield post for those who are currently unaware of what may happen and how they can actually protect themselves.

      • #42157
        samak
        Guest

        KC/Mark/Tim,
        (i) Did you install any May updates?
        (ii) Are you using GWX Control Panel?

      • #42158
        woody
        Manager

        I think you’re right.

        I’d sure like to get a screenshot of the EULA that’s currently being used….

      • #42159
        Marc
        Guest

        People should not be surprised that MS does what it does, for it now officially does not care for private customers anymore like it once did, in the 90s when climaxing its dominace with Win95. But in recent years, MS has more and more pulled out of producing for private consumer market, their attempts to grab a hold in the smartphone market crumbled, their strategy with the Surface tablets has collapsed, and in the first market they have almost completed their pull-out, with the latter market being not updated with new hardware anymore, it seems to be set for getting abandoned sooner than later, too. Windows as a coin-generator has lost meaning due to Google and Apple with their OS hacking away at it, also MS Office sees strong and free competition via LibreOffice and Apache Office. MS more and more exclusively focusses on the server market and business sector, maybe cloud services. Private customers only disturb the routine here.

        You guys feel ignored by MS for one simple reason. You are indeed being ignored for real, that simple. They do not care for you as customers anymore. In principle, you are just a surviving artifact of an older time long since gone, and nowadays you are a nuisance. They probably would prefer you would not exist – and your Win7 installations would seize to exist as well so that they can stop investing into their efforts of trying to transform them into W10.

        Your hopes for MS turnign better again, are illusory. Your good will and patience is in vain. Wake up to the truth.

      • #42160
        lizzytish
        AskWoody Lounger

        Just wanted to mention that I’ve got 3 optional updates that have been added since the May patch last week. And all are not Italic. One in particular concerns me and that is KB3123862 which I understand is a GWX one. Also my understanding is when they are presented as “not italic” it could mean they are about to become Important, or the “not italic” means MS considers them Recommended. Either way its a dodgy issue to me and something if left there waiting could v. well change and bring on that dreaded upgrade. I don’t want to be subject that…. I would rather just wait until I update to a new laptop whenever if that ever happens. So I’m relying on Josh’s app……. and the info I receive from this blog…. I have no desire to upgrade and then roll back…….. what for ? I don’t want Win10 on this laptop ever!
        Think MS forgets that people have a life outside computers………. and for me I have far more pressing things than just waffling between OS’s.
        Just my 2 bits again! LT

      • #42161
        Karen
        Guest

        I assume and PLEASE tell me I am right that this will not happen if we have the GWX control panel installed and run on our computers!

      • #42162
        Bill
        Guest

        So far my Win 7 is free of Win 10 crap by using Gwx control panel, trawling the web for info everytime there’s MS updates, having check but let me choose highlighted and not downloading most of their update crapware. MS is now my sworn enemy and if they do impose Win 10 on me i will never purchase anything MS is associated with and i will badmouth them at every available opportunity.

      • #42163
        oxbridgelee
        AskWoody Lounger

        The more I’ve thought about this recently, the more it makes sense.

        Just before free 10 disappears, add up the numbers, put it next to a timescale for 1 billion users and subsequently change the goalposts for everyone who hasn’t taken up the offer. Doubtless planned months ago as one of several possible scenarios.

        There’s already confusion about tactics with the current update system and ‘roll ups’ is an ingenious way to go on the part of M$. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but there’s a long road ahead yet before the end of 7. Of course, it makes things easier for those wanting a fresh install of 7 and at the same time does little for those that are already up to date. M$ just being helpful, of course.

        But down the line, when the only updates available for 7 are ‘roll ups’, monthly cumulative ‘roll ups’ even, like 10? What then, my friends?

      • #42164
        woody
        Manager

        Based on everything I’ve seen, Microsoft is honoring the registry settings it set – the ones that GWX Control Panel maintains.

      • #42165
        wdburt1
        Guest

        I am not a lawyer, either, but I have managed litigation in business and think you are unduly pessimistic about the prospects for a successful lawsuit. Trickery and deception are not legal, and flimflam tactics with the EULA undercut that as a Microsoft defense, which is weak to begin with. Proving commercial fraud appears to be the easy part.

        The harder part, as you pointed out recently, is standing to sue. The plaintiffs must have standing, i.e., the ability to prove that they have been deprived of something “material” that was rightfully theirs, which they paid for. Proving that Microsoft is cheating them out of their quiet possession of their Windows 7 (or 8 or 8.1) licenses is, again, not so difficult. The hard part is proving that the loss is “material,” i.e., significant enough to merit the intervention of a court.

        I can think of two solutions. One is a class action suit in behalf of at least several thousand individual users. The other is for one or more business users with hundreds of Win7 computers to file suit.

        Somewhere between “individuals” and “business” are the thousands of consultants and IT managers who seem to be well represented here.

        I suspect that the real problem with materiality is not that it cannot be shown, but that there isn’t enough money in it to attract a big law firm to file a class action suit. We’ll never know so long as users remain confused and disorganized.

      • #42166
        DougCuk
        AskWoody Plus

        You have 30 days to downgraded back to Win7 after a Win10 upgrade
        Just Google “downgrade windows 10” for instructions

        Most applications survive OK – but some security software may need reinstalling.
        You should then run either “GRC Never10” or “GWX Control Panel” to disable the Win10 upgrade option.

        The downgrade back to Win7 works except for one thing – the Task Scheduler gets trashed.
        Apparently the revert from Win10 back to Win7 is known to cause this problem
        https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windowsserver/en-US/80e4f83d-1529-4405-b8e3-d1d636f8b71c

        However there is a fantastic utility that scans and repairs the Win7 Task Scheduler Library
        https://repairtasks.codeplex.com/
        Works a treat and saves hours of complex repairs.

      • #42167
        b
        Guest

        “One would think there would be an opportunity for the user to actually peruse/read the EULA before acceptance.”

        There is.

      • #42168
        b
        Guest

        Has the EULA changed?

        You don’t have a test box you could upgrade?

      • #42169
        Alan C. Lawhon
        Guest

        Greycoat:

        I’m not waiting around … I’m already talking to a couple of Linux experts and starting the process of getting “educated” on Linux. I suppose Microsoft factored in that they might lose some small “fraction” of disgruntled Windows users (forever) to Linux. I hope it’s more like a flood as I want third party app developers to start making their products run in native Linux.

        I’ll be going through some “growing pains” as I get use to Linux, but, (strictly from a performance perspective), aren’t Linux distros so much better than Windows? (I should have made the switch long ago …)

      • #42170
        Graham
        Guest

        Two years ago people, myself included, were given a rude shock when we realised support for Win XP had stopped. The OS we had grown to love, and thought we would have forever, was made unsafe overnight.

        But we still had Windows 7, which would be supported until 2020, and people did warm to it. Now that support is in doubt and we are faced with the possibility that from now on, we will not have control over what updates we can or cannot install, or what Microsoft may be doing to our installation behind our backs.

        The new version of Windows is something it seems the majority of people, myself included, do not want.

        Microsoft has lost the trust of many long-term users, and Windows is obviously no longer an OS people feel comfortable with.

        When support for XP stopped, I installed Linux in dual-boot mode, denying XP access to the Internet. That meant I could keep using my Windows software safely, and do my online work with Linux. I did the same with Windows 7 on my laptop.

        While I know people will roll their eyes at the mention of Linux, ask yourself one question. What Windows programs do you use that absolutely must have Internet access?

        Of the ones that do, which ones are you absolutely certain Linux does not have an equivalent for? Personally, I have narrowed it down to none! Your situation may be different, and you very well may have programs that are Windows only, and need Internet access to work.

        Technology is an ever-evolving beast. Smartphones and tablets now do a lot of what we used to do on PC’s and laptops. The programs we need the power of a computer for, are growing fewer and fewer. Programs that require “Windows Only” Internet access are rare.

        Windows is not the necessity it used to be. The heydays of Microsoft are coming to an end, if not already over. Weigh up the stress of fighting Windows 10 against, the now short, learning curve of Linux. By all means keep Windows 7 (or 8) installed, but only use it offline. Let Linux handle your online tasks.

        Once you have experienced the freedom of choosing which OS to boot into, you will wonder why you left it so long. If you want advice on which Linux version to use, I will give you mine and the reasons why.

        Woody is doing an excellent job of guiding us through the Windows 10 mire, but it is only delaying the inevitable. It is time to disconnect Windows from the Web.

      • #42171
        Noel Carboni
        Guest

        >”impose Win 10 on me”

        Good choice of words.

        How far we’ve come in such a short time…

        A scant 7 years ago we lined up to buy the new version of Windows, at hundreds of dollars a pop, in order to get the latest and greatest new technology.

        Now, we have to fight to avoid having that taken away.

        Be honest: Have you EVER had the terms “latest and greatest” occur in the same thought train as Windows 10?

        Lord knows I’ve tried.

        Windows 10 just doesn’t improve on *anything* over its predecessors.

        The change at Microsoft has been nothing less than profound.

        -Noel

      • #42172
        NotReallyBob(fromanothercomputer)
        Guest

        I’ve seen it (over a month ago). Windows 8.1, updates on automatic, computer unattended, no consent to upgrade. Decline EULA and it reverted back. 8.1 was mostly intact afterwards (not 100%, had some oddities). If it had been my PC I would have done a clean re-install afterwards.

      • #42173
        NotReallyBob(fromanothercomputer)
        Guest

        A little late if you are seeing the welcome to windows 10, sign on the line because privacy is not permitted beyond this point.

      • #42174
        Steve
        Guest

        Then all our eggs are in the GWX Control Panel/Spybot Anti-Beacon basket.

      • #42175
        Render
        Guest

        All this nonsense that we’ve been subjected to has finally forced me to look at Linux. I’m just hoping I don’t lose too much in the transition, I’m not sure if I have any programs that won’t run on Linux.

        An early glance suggests there is a way to “test” linux without installing the entire package. Now I just have to see if my old rig has enough strenth to run the test.

        Meanwhile, I’m stuck babysitting every dang update on windows equipment until who knows when. Thankfully we have a DEFCON system to help with that endeavor.

      • #42176
        Charlie
        AskWoody Plus

        My brother used to work for Microsoft, and for a long time I couldn’t say anything against them. Well, now my brother is using Linux!

      • #42177
        samak
        Guest

        Woody,
        Since MS seems to be getting worse, I just wondered what you thought of the idea of changing WU settings to “Never check for updates” and then just changing them back once a month when you actually want to do some updates. Any drawbacks?
        Thanks.

      • #42178
        Randall
        Guest

        That’s horrible news. Had never heard before that an X click could initiate an action except to close the window. I though that was a system level behavior enforced by Windows.

        Or did MS just change the rules for themselves?

      • #42179
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        LT, you are doing well with Josh’s app. I think those that had the forced upgrades pushed against their intention had no protection against upgrading being implemented on their computers (which even knowing about this protection as being required, is a bit high-tech for a lot of end-users) and at the same time upgraded blindly, without reading the “fine print”, or at least this site and other similar sites which raise the alert. In such a situation, Microsoft considers that those users have already delegated the full responsibility of keeping the system up to date to Microsoft and would not oppose the current push for an upgrade for which they are not charged. And I am convinced that a vast majority, maybe 90% of end-users are more than happy to take the offer to upgrade for free. However, what most of them find after the upgrade is that it is not all milk and honey and Microsoft in fact offered the free upgrade to have those users acting like their beta testers for the final stages of Windows 10 which is not yet tuned completely.
        I think that if you really want to have a life outside this update/upgrade cycle and use your computer for better things, the best that you can do is to change your Windows Update settings to Never check for updates and come back here now and then and check for any new developments in this area. You should be safe then. And certainly you should check around July 29 and immediately after. There will be interesting times around that date.
        I think this is the best advice now for almost everyone concerned and not interested in the technical details and even if Woody did not advice in this direction, I have a feeling that he is about half-way to do just this soon.

      • #42180
        anonymous
        Guest
      • #42181
        louis
        Guest

        Just as an aside…Apple released a 9.whatever update last week…and it’s bricking iPad Pros.

        These companies, across the board, need to hire experienced coders and pay them, not hire the 20 somethings to save money that have no idea how users actually use these machines .

      • #42182
        schnarph
        Guest

        Having no other option than satellite internet which is both slow, expensive, and metered, updates for any software must be scrutinized.

        I never install optional updates and hid KB3035583 after one of three computers here running Windows 7 displayed the GWX thingy (after a prompt rollback all was well again). I try to use WSUS offline once a month but it doesn’t catch everything, but it does save on bandwidth usage. With limited bandwidth, any benefits to Win10 over Win7 have not caught my attention, yet. I’m not afraid of Win10, but will most likely not need or want these computers come 2020, so there’s no rush to upgrade the OS.

        I still haven’t use the GWX control panel yet GWX has not popped up again. All 3 Win7 computers are up to date (sans optional updates), what am I missing here?

      • #42183
        Manny
        Guest

        Microsoft’s extreme efforts to get everyone on Windows 10 are not only annoying but also bizarre, especially because they’re offering Windows 10 for free. Windows 10 is basically a surveillance system, so I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Microsoft is getting a kickback from the government for every computer that they upgrade to Windows 10.

        I think that computer users have a basic right to privacy, and that it’s still possible to regularly surf the internet while maintaining a reasonable level of privacy. I use Pale Moon as my browser, which is basically a better version of Firefox. I use Adblock along with the “easy privacy” list. I don’t use Facebook and I never use any products from Google.

        I think that the extra “conveniences” that Windows 10 provides are far outweighed by the huge privacy invasion. I don’t need Microsoft to remind me of an upcoming dentist appointment. Heck, I can write that down on a piece of paper and leave it on the kitchen table.

        Woody, I’ve never commented here before but I just wanted to say thanks, your website is a critical information source. I bought your books on Windows Vista and Windows 7, they were great. But man, after my Windows 7 computer breaks down, I’m making the move over to Linux, and after that I don’t want to ever have anything to do with any Microsoft product ever again.

      • #42184
        woody
        Manager

        I hear ya. (Although there ain’t a chance in chicken-fried hell that the gov’t is paying MS for Win10 upgrades.)

      • #42185
        woody
        Manager

        You’re doing fine.

      • #42186
        woody
        Manager

        Ouch. Good luck and keep me posted…

      • #42187
        woody
        Manager

        They changed the rules, all by themselves. The only thing that remains is GWX Control Panel and the settings it uses.

      • #42188
        woody
        Manager

        The difference between “Never check” and “Notify but don’t download” is getting thinner and thinner. The important thing is that you manually look around once a month to see how things are going. You DO need to install security patches, sooner or later.

      • #42189
        woody
        Manager

        On my test boxes it hasn’t changed. But I’m instigating the install manually. I’ve also never seen, with my own eyes, the dialog that will install Win10 if you “X” out of it.

        I’m building a new from-scratch machine (again), testing the SP2 rollup, in the hope that it’ll trigger that GWX dialog and, if I leave it alone, it’ll upgrade itself to Win10. That’s the EULA I want to see, after a machine upgrades itself under the new rules.

      • #42190
        woody
        Manager

        Undoubtedly true. I just don’t know what, exactly, the EULA says.

      • #42191
        woody
        Manager

        This article is three months old. It covers the basics, but not the Task Scheduler problem (which apparently is ubiquitous):

        http://www.infoworld.com/article/3033806/microsoft-windows/how-to-roll-back-your-windows-10-upgrade.html

      • #42192
        woody
        Manager

        Interesting.

        Businesses won’t file suit – they aren’t being forced to Win10. Microsoft’s been very careful about that.

        But consumers… that’s a different story entirely…

      • #42193
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        Woody, only installing “SP2” will not get you to Windows 10 even if you stay on Auto Update. KB3035583 is unticked for me in WU after installing SP2 and everything else including Recommended but not the Optional updates.
        KB3035583 is the only update which matters, so you will need to install it manually if it stays unticked after SP2.

      • #42194
        b
        Guest

        “The new version of Windows is something it seems the majority of people, myself included, do not want.”

        I think you’re wrong. Why do you assume yourself to be in the majority?

      • #42195
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        Not maybe, Cloud and Hyper-V virtualisation are the current Microsoft focus. The other existing products do not require much innovation in the core functionality, but they get major upgrades in relation to the Cloud implementation.
        Windows 7 is the past for Microsoft and soon they will leave it alone. KB3125574 signals the end of supporting Windows 7.

      • #42196
        b
        Guest

        “Be honest: Have you EVER had the terms “latest and greatest” occur in the same thought train as Windows 10?”

        Yes, frequently.

        “Windows 10 just doesn’t improve on *anything* over its predecessors.

        Windows 10 has many significant improvements. Even Woody has written about them. Others have been even more enthusiastic:

        What Windows 7 holdouts will miss: 11 improvements in Windows 10
        http://www.pcworld.com/article/2954552/windows/what-windows-7-holdouts-will-miss-11-improvements-in-windows-10.html

        12 great Windows 10 features for power users
        http://www.infoworld.com/article/3053653/microsoft-windows/12-great-windows-10-features-for-power-users.html

        Who are you trying to kid?

      • #42197
        John in Mtl
        Guest

        I’m pretty sure it is posted independantly on one of MS’s websites – somewhere – and you can read / print it out without even going through an install.

        Way back at the beginning of the july 2015 roll-out, some sites (I forget which) did pick apart the EULA and posted fragments of it; those specific fragments pertaining to data collection and privacy are the very things that started the whole controversy surrounding windows 10 as “spyware” and “Redmond owns all your data now”.

      • #42198
        b
        Guest

        “I haven’t seen a screenshot of the new EULA, but I suspect it’s sneaky – it asks you to accept the EULA for Win10, without explicitly saying that you’re giving permission to upgrade to Win10.”

        Is it common practice to accept an EULA for software that you DON’T want?

      • #42199
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        As long as you won’t install KB3035583 you will be fine.

      • #42200
        woody
        Manager

        Not common practice, BUT… In the past, Microsoft has shown a EULA that isn’t at all clear. One could easily click Accept on the EULA and not realize that they’re giving permission to install Win10.

        https://www.dropbox.com/s/ydm5yn26cn13gm3/win10eula.jpg?dl=0

        I won’t be satisfied until I see, exactly, what EULA these people are seeing.

      • #42201
        woody
        Manager

        Wellllllllll… OK, then, why are half of the Windows users out there still using Win7? Even after being poked and prodded, at great expense to Microsoft’s credibility?

        Win10 is at 15% usage, give or take a poll or two. That’ll increase, for sure, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that people prefer it.

        *I* prefer Windows 10, but I’m in the minority. I’m willing to accept the increased snooping, the advertising, and the forced updates. Many, reasonably, are not.

      • #42202
        woody
        Manager

        That’s what I’m trying to re-re-verify, on a different clean install. And it may only last until MS re-issues 3035583 again.

      • #42203
        Greycoat
        Guest

        Dear Alan,

        My main computer (only computer but for a non-upgradable Android cheap tablet) operates Windows 7 Professional. About 2 1/2 years ago I decided to check into Linux. Being a Windows user all my life, but for a brief moment with the purchase of an Apple IIc computer back in the mid-eighties, I had no clue what Linux was, what a distro was, or even how to obtain the Linux software for use. So I “googled” it and finally got my first copy of Ubuntu to try (before Unity desktop) on a DVD-ROM mailed to me by Ubuntu. Since then I’ve tinkered with just about every distro I could try many of which were listed on DistroWatch. At one point I had around 70 different distros running first in VMPlayer then I gravitated over to Virtualbox and ran the various distros as a guest. Being “Obsessive-Compulsive” trying to just keep currently updated 70 plus distros was a full-time job! However, I did learn a lot about the various distros. Some of my favorites now are Debian Cinnamon, Xubuntu, Linux Mint Cinnamon, Linux Mint Xfce, Korora (Fedora based), Manjaro Cinnamon and Manjaro Xfce both of which are Arch-based. For a person just getting into Linux, I would suggest Debian & Ubuntu based distros particularly Linux Mint whatever the desktop. In my heart of hearts I still like Windows 7 & Aero best, but I’ve also fallen for some these Linux distros too. I used to be a gamer, but getting older and not the gamer I used to be. Getting off point, I have Windows XP games, which I paid good money for, that will no longer play in Windows 7. Yet I also had Steam games that I got in 2005, while still on XP, that still play perfectly on Steam in Windows 7. If I were to buy another Windows game it would not be outside of Steam for Steam supports your “old” games where a changing Windows does not on many occasions. I also note Steam has also moved to Linux which I am glad and my eventual transition to Linux from Windows 7 Professional, will be easier to do. I would try first Linux in a Virtualbox. Using Linux in Virtualbox is a great way to sandbox the browser from your main host Windows OS. Google Chrome, Firefox, and other browsers also work extremely well in Linux. If one just wants to browse the Internet, now play some games in Steam, and use a desktop suite like LibreOffice (which is just fine for most people), then there is no reason to now be a slave to any OS. Linux has improved a whole lost since even when I started looking into it 2 1/2 years ago and as Linux is getting better, for me at least, Windows, particularly as a service, is getting worse for me. I have both a legitimate licensed Windows 10 and Windows 10 Technical Preview licensed guests in Virtuabox. There is no “joy” in using either and when I do start one or the other up, it is just to see the latest Windows. When browsing, I don’t run to Windows 10 but to Korora, Mint, Manjaro, or Xubuntu first.

        Alan, you probably are already aware of this site, but anyone who is not, they should check out distrowatch.com. It’s a way to get introduced to Linux. That’s how I got started and if, or when, Windows 10 or Windows As A Service, goes off the cliff, I won’t have to go with it or be a slave to some future subscription or what THEY decide is best for me. I have choice and I like that.

      • #42204
        Graham
        Guest

        I should have advised people to click on the hyperlink next to my name if they have questions or wish to know more, especially about Linux.

        The comment I made was merely my opinion and a suggested solution, and I certainly don’t want Woody’s blog to become the place to argue for or against anything I said. He has enough to do already.

        I am more than happy to have any debates on my own blog. Please don’t start them here.

      • #42205
        Graham
        Guest

        Render, my comment (#14) was aimed directly at people in your situation. You can install Linux and keep Windows too. You then have the choice of booting into Windows or Linux.

        While my blog is about installing Linux instead of Windows, people usually take the safe option and keep Windows.

        That way you do not lose any of your Windows programs, you just don’t allow it to connect to the Internet, solving the update issue.

        There are many versions of Linux, depending on how powerful your machine is. Lightweight versions will actually run faster than your current Windows installation.

        Yes, you can run Linux from a bootable DVD or USB stick, without installing it. Please click on my name to visit my blog on Linux. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

      • #42206
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        In fact as we know from the past, any update can be ticked or unticked, depending on Microsoft’s back-end configuration. So a setting which is unticked by default right now may not last.

      • #42207
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        b, I think for a lot of people here, not upgrading is more a matter of principle in relation to Microsoft’s push for forced upgrading. It has less to do with how better or worse Windows 10 is.
        I think Windows 10 is marginally better than Windows 7 and that it is only the next service pack for Windows 8.1 and I adopted it, but I am more or less in agreement with what Noel says. I experiment with Windows 10 for professional reasons and to get a competitive advantage when time will come and there will be demand for Windows 10 to be implemented in enterprise. There are practical advantages for not living in the past, beyond what is right or wrong.

      • #42208
        NotReallyBob(fromanothercomputer)
        Guest

        Just read some of the windows 10 EULA. (pre-login, you can’t browse the internet) Most of the privacy policy content was a link to microsoft’s website. You can’t read that until after you accept.

        Sign the contract so you can read all of it…

      • #42209
        NotReallyBob(fromanothercomputer)
        Guest

        Remember, if you aren’t running the enterprise edition you count as a home user. (non-enterprise domain users count as home users now too)

      • #42210
        NotReallyBob(fromanothercomputer)
        Guest

        I must have missed the list or the list is a video or not concise.

        Windows 8.1 vs 7 I do note some under-the-hood fixes despite the interface. 8.1 vs 10 I note a few more very minor upgrades.

        Windows 8.x is “The start menu is all different, we’re telling you that you like it”
        aka the start menu is messed up and some control panels are missing (saved wifi list for one). Also tracking.

        Windows 10 is “We brought the start menu back isn’t that great? Were are telling you even harder you like it”
        aka we brought the tile screen to the desktop in place of the old start menu as an excuse to say that it is back. Also LOTS of tracking, built in deeper. “Also try the new unfinished browser, you can’t block our ads with it!”

        We need Windows 7.5 with all the (under the hood) tech advances of windows 8.x/10. User interface almost exactly like 7. The tile screen can be “tablet mode”, buried somewhere that you can toggle to it. No tracking, no tile mode control panels that control things that aren’t tiles. Also IE 12 with search separate from the address bar.

      • #42211
        NotReallyBob(fromanothercomputer)
        Guest

        I’ve seen that from an upgrade from vista to 7.

      • #42212
        NotReallyBob(fromanothercomputer)
        Guest

        Count me as not willing to accept.

      • #42213
        NotReallyBob(fromanothercomputer)
        Guest

        Doesn’t cache the list of detected updates. If you spend 2 hours wasting CPU time to check for updates, then don’t install them, they’re all gone and you have to repeat.

      • #42214
        lizzytish
        AskWoody Lounger

        Thank you for your advice/help, ch100… it is much appreciated…. the one thing that bothers me about never checking for updates and perhaps looking/checking manually is the problem that many are having with the lengthy delays that seem to occur when updating that way. Is that what you were thinking about….. when saying never check for updates…….. Or was it just NOT checking period?
        And certainly yes……. it’s going to be interesting to say the least when 29th July comes by and goes!
        As long as I don’t get snagged into the upgrade I will be happy to be that proverbial fly on the wall……. watching! You know the other thing that crossed my mind is………. even if you upgrade and roll back you still become a number in that 3000,000. users that MS are wanting so badly!
        And that is something I would not be happy with if
        I contributed to that! Many thanks again. LT

      • #42215
        lizzytish
        AskWoody Lounger

        PS……. On reflection think the number MS are working on for their target is 3 billion! not million as I said above!!! LT

      • #42216
        woody
        Manager

        One billion.

      • #42217
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        Even SP1 installation on top of Windows 7 RTM or Windows 2008 R2 RTM messes up the Task Scheduler in certain conditions.

      • #42218
        ch100
        AskWoody_MVP

        Is that what you were thinking about….. when saying never check for updates…….. Or was it just NOT checking period?

        Yes, checking for updates once a month before the next round is released and at the same time checking Woody’s comments and MS-DEFCON. It was not meant to mean NEVER, just never automatically.
        I can guarantee to you that if you have ALL the updates installed except for KB3035583 and you computer in good state, there is no slow update. You would get a certain amount of telemetry though. If on the other hand there is additional software which interferes with the Windows Update mechanics, then it gets complicated and this has nothing to do with Microsoft.
        Sure you don’t want to get dragged into the upgrade and rollback. I would go as far as to say that if you don’t have an up to date backup taken just before the (accidental) upgrade, you would be better off sticking with Windows 10. It is just my point of view.

      • #42219
        b
        Guest

        “OK, then, why are half of the Windows users out there still using Win7?”

        Simple: Businesses don’t get a free upgrade.

      • #42220
        woody
        Manager

        Interesting. So consumers have upgraded to Win10 en masse?

      • #42221
        Jim in Yakima
        Guest

        Lots of “choice” commentary here:

        PSA: Closing the "Upgrade to Windows 10" box now counts as ACCEPTING the update, which will automatically occur 15 minutes after logging in unless canceled from pcmasterrace

        Of my early favorites, this takes the lead, by ‘AngryBigMac’:

        “Too late, my dad fell for it and his laptop is W10 now.

        The funeral is in a few hours.”

        Gotta have a laugh at some point.

      • #42222
        lizzytish
        AskWoody Lounger

        Thank you very much for your detailed reply, ch100… and your comments re updating.
        Actually before Win10 was released back in July last year……. I had prepared both my husband’s(8.1) and my (7) laptops for the transition. I had taken images of both with Macrium, and have also daily backups running…… I also made sure about certain software working etc. The only area I hadn’t covered was drivers, Nvidia in question, as I believe they needed to be updated in Win10. (I must admit because one usually lets the company talk to the computer and decide on which to offer…….. I didn’t go and download an appropriate driver for Win10. and save it – still being on a Win7 machine at that time) Then I discovered the truth about mandatory updates and telemetry and I came to a FULL STOP. Also it began to dawn on me how draconian MS had become and quite frankly it all began to smell.
        All my personal data is on external drives…….. so what’s on the machines is basically the OS. And I think the relevant bits of that, such as User files and AppData are included in daily backups.
        So basically I think I’ve covered the angles as much as possible. But the big thing now is……
        I really do NOT want to upgrade at this time… and don’t get me wrong I believe Win10 is quite a good OS…… its just the way it’s all been handled……….. and I’ve heard some really awful experiences that people have had, first hand, with the upgrading……. that I don’t really want to be subjected to that if I can. I want to be able, as alot do, to do it in my own time. At this particular point of time I am having to spend alot of time helping my husband, who hasn’t been well…. so anything that upsets the status quo so to speak is not welcome and something I’m trying to avoid. Enough rambling…. thanks for listening and your input
        which as always is much appreciated! LT

      • #42223
        woody
        Manager

        🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

      • #42224
        Roger
        Guest

        another good term would be “inflicted Win10 on me”

      • #42225
        Daubie
        Guest

        I still have Win 7 Pro, SP1. I use the GWX Control Panel. Windows Update is turned off.

      • #42226
        JC Denton
        Guest

        You’re partially correct.
        Microsoft (along with Google, Facebook, Twitter, and many others) are part of the PRISM program that was fully revealed by Edward Snowden in what are now known as the ‘Snowden Leaks’ or ‘Snowden Papers’.

        http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/multimedia/timeline-edward-snowden-revelations.html

        And this was back in June 2013. Seems some things never change. People forget and memory seems to disappear as a new controversy takes place.

        So yeah, Microsoft and Google and others collect data and are mandatory-required to hand it over to the US Govt without a word to the public (National Security Letters via the PATRIOT Act rushed through Congress shortly after 9/11/2001).

        The best solution I’ve found is just keep everything encrypted. Zero knowledge encryption is the future of human freedom and privacy on the internet. Freedom of speech, press, and religion are all under attack if we do not constantly keep a vigilant watch on the govt.

        The govt should fear the people, never the other way around. We vote them into office and THEY work for US. Let them never forget that.

      • #42227
        JC Denton
        Guest

        Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

        If they do not properly disclose what the EULA is for then it cannot be considered legally-binding as a contract and thus it means that the EULA itself is rendered void (presumably along with your license to use the software).

        Microsoft would have to be sued and prove in court that they provided ‘clear and descriptive notice’ of the exact software being installed, the reason it is being installed, the purpose of the software, and the rights and limitations of the end-user in regards to use of the software.

        If it isn’t clear that people are agreeing to a Win10 EULA then it could be thrown out of court as invalid and make a huge mess for Microsoft.

        The question now is whether any lawyers are willing to test this out in court.

      • #42228
        JC Denton
        Guest

        If their dad fell for it, then they failed to do their part to prevent it.

        I moved both my elderly parents over to Linux Mint about 2 years ago. They’ve never been happier and I haven’t even had them bug me about how to do things.

        They only really use it to check (web-based) e-mail and browse the web and do banking/taxes. Nothing too complex.

        Any respectable techie will do their best to move their parents/friends over to a Linux-based OS as soon as possible. Linux distros can easily do most everything a consumer needs outside of Windows-specific gaming.

      • #42229
        daniel
        Guest

        I saw there were definition updates in windows update and just installed that one. Seemed to be hanging at 0% for ages so i cancelled it but it shows as updated anyway???????? Anyway looks like they’re driving it through windows update so I unchecked the constantly failing “check for definition updates” box in MSE. Thanks Woody

      • #42230
        woody
        Manager

        If you’re using MSE (and I recommend it), you need to get those updates. Daily updates aren’t that big a deal, but don’t let it go for more than a week or two…

      • #42231
        daniel
        Guest

        Hi Woody, Just letting you know, after catching up on windows security updates (only!), I ran an update check on MSE and it worked for the first time in a couple of weeks (no connection failed message).
        Checked automatic update box back to auto (in MSE) and hopefully will be all fine.
        I find it kind of weird that no reps ever responded to one of the most viewed, me too’ed and active threads in the win 7 MSE virus update section :-/

      • #42232
        woody
        Manager

        Might want to post a referral here, so people know they’re not alone…

      • #42233
        End User
        Guest

        Windows 10 Should Be Classified as Malware! built-in Keylogger & Speech Analyzer uploads everything regardless of settings! Your Bandwidth Stolen to push updates and a Deceptive and Devious EULA Agreement! I have blocked all Spying in W7 & W10 Upgrade Crap & will be soon GOING TO LINUX!!!

        All Microsoft Hardware, OS, Software & Services should be avoided like the plague!!!

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