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  • It’s way too soon to panic about Windows 11

    Home » Forums » AskWoody blog » It’s way too soon to panic about Windows 11

    • This topic has 40 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 2 months ago.
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    #2382558

    LANGALIST By Fred Langa Windows 11, aka Windows 21H2, is due out later this year but is already causing deep concern among many users. For some, it’s
    [See the full post at: It’s way too soon to panic about Windows 11]

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    • #2382562

      Windows 21H2, is due out later this year

      Windows 11 is due in 2 months, October 20.

      Unusual way to (maybe) indefinitely pause version upgrades in Win10 Home

      Why the need for an unusual way to pause upgrades and babysit Windows 10 Home for weeks when there is the TRV registry hack for home version users ?

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2382580

      Windows 11, aka Windows 21H2

      FYI, 21H2 isn’t Windows 11, it’s the next version of Windows 10 (build# 19044.1147) that was released to the insider preview channel on July 15.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2382587

        Yes that’s the way I understand it.

      • #2382601

        See my post #2382598 below.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2382617

        This arrived Aug 2, as the clip shows.

         

        Hello, World

        • #2382630

          So Microsoft is going to confuse the Windows 10 vs Windows 11 issue even more by using the same version numbers for 2 different products.

          Just great!

          3 users thanked author for this post.
          • #2382836

            I was about to say the same thing. Just great, I do corporate support, and trying to keep versions separate (we still use WSUS to block/approve updates we’ve tested) has been an endless battle. Thankfully we have a SOE that we have finally standardised on one version (20H2) that ensures that all our non-standard software runs on, and the confusion the new dual Win10/11 21h2 will cause is a nightmare.

            No matter where you go, there you are.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2382875

            same version numbers for 2 different products.

            Its the same core, its the same product/service. Different name. Different UI.
            I agree with the confusion, but thats just the way it is.

            Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

            HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

            PRUSA i3 MK3S+

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    • #2382596

      I think, Windows 10 and Windows 11 are similar, apart of the looks and very few differences. What Windows 11 does, Windows 10 can do it too. The panic about is because people are confused with the last Windows ever and Microsoft advising to buy new computer even with few years old computers.
      Its the same with Office 365 – if you look into installation folder, its still the same core as Office 2019.
      Its the same peice of code selled twice as two different products with different user interface. I wont waste my time and resources to betatest Windows 11. But if someone wants to, its his choice and respect it.

      Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

      HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

      PRUSA i3 MK3S+

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    • #2382598

      As I understand it, there will be a change in TRV coming to Win10 and Win11.
      In Win10, currently, you specify the version you want to maintain – 2004, 20H2, 21H1.
      When Win11 is released, the version will be 21H2 also.
      There will be a new line in the Registry that designates “ProductVersion” (Windows 10 or Windows 11) and also a line that designates Feature update (21H2, 22H1 etc).

      Screenshot shows Group Policy settings, but there are equivalent Registry settings that will be determined by the script for Home users. When I get time, I will add information in the Win11 Forum on these changes.

      Future-TRV-Settings

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      • #2382785

        When I get time, I will add information in the Win11 Forum on these changes.

        Suggest you also keep the Windows 10 “how to” documentation areas updated.

        Windows 10 Pro x64 v21H1 and Windows 7 Pro SP1 x64 (RIP)
        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2382613

      I have two computers. One is an ASUS laptop with an 10700 CPU and a desktop with a 10980 XE CPU. Both have NVME drives. When I run any of the Windows 11 compatibility tools (except Microsoft) they say that the desktop computer has a legacy boot drive and is not compatible with Windows 11. The laptop is just fine and fully compatible. The desktop has an MBR boot partition while the laptop has a GPT boot partition. It would appear I will have to reinstall Windows on the desktop after converting to a GPT partition. Oh, well. I still have a vacation coming.

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    • #2382647

      Windows 11, aka Windows 21H2, is due out later this year but is already causing deep concern among many users.

      Windows 11 will have a registry.  It will have a C:\Windows system folder.  There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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    • #2382664

      For example, Win11’s Settings/Storage now lets you perform tasks such as deleting space-hogging, no-longer-needed, automatic roll-back copies of previous Windows versions. To do this in Win10, you’d have to leave Settings, launch a separate disk-cleanup tool, and then dig into its secondary menus.

      Not true.

      Windows 10 has been able to delete Windows.old via Settings, System, Storage for years:

      How to delete the Windows.old folder on Windows 10

      Delete your previous version of Windows — Windows 10

      Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1288 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

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    • #2382725

      There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’

      No, there won’t according to Microsoft.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2382759

        There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’

        No, there won’t according to Microsoft.

        Well, of course not, according to Microsoft.  According to Microsoft, the B side of my dual boot is not possible, cannot receive updates/upgrades, etc.  And yet it has been for a few years without issue.  It’s now running 21H1 (OS Build 19043.1110)

        Tell you what I’ll do.  Once Windows 11 is RTM, I’ll do an upgrade on my 4th generation hardware and post some screen shots for ya.  No need to discuss it ’til the RTM, though.

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
        "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

    • #2382753

      I am pretty sure that Windows Update can not be blocked simply by disabling the WU service. That was true on Windows 7, but Windows 10 is very very different. Windows 10 has many services involved in making sure the updates get installed. Some are just watchdog services that make sure the other services are running.I also tried blocking Windows Update with Firewall rules but the system added new rules that over-rode my blocks. My guess is that it does this whenever bug fixes are installed.

      Blocking Windows Update from within Windows is a losing game of wack-a-mole. It needs to be blocked in the router by blocking the 6 or 7 or 8 domains that it tries to access. I have done that for quite a while and it works.

      If a router has Parental Controls it may be able to block domains. Or, a professional class router, such as pfSense, can do this too.

      Get up to speed on router security at RouterSecurity.org and Defensive Computing at DefensiveComputingChecklist.com

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      • #2382855

        I am pretty sure that Windows Update can not be blocked simply by disabling the WU service … Windows 10 has many services involved in making sure the updates get installed. Some are just watchdog services that make sure the other services are running.

        That’s absolutely correct.  However, it is possible to block Windows Update from within Windows if you’re determined enough to do it.  I successfully blocked Windows Update for well over a year; but it required disabling or otherwise neutering all the following services and/or tasks:

        • Windows Update Service (wuauserv)
        • Update Orchestrator Service (UsoSvc)
        • Windows Update Medic Service (WaaSMedicSvc)
        • Windows Remediation Service (sedsvc)
        • Windows 10 Update Facilitation Service (osrss)
        • AC Power Download Task
        • Maintenance Install Task
        • MusUx_UpdateInterval Task
        • Reboot Task
        • USO_Broker_Display Task
        • Schedule Scan Task
        • Schedule Retry Scan Task
        • Maintenance Install Task
        • Scheduled Start Task
        • SIH Task
        • PerformRemediation Task

        Initially I disabled these services and tasks manually, experimenting with which ones were essential to blocking Windows Update.  Once I found a formula that worked I automated things by queuing up all the necessary commands in the proper sequence in a couple script files — one to disable Windows Update, and one to temporarily enable Windows Update (for once-a-month updating under my control).  It’s definitely possible to do this; and I can confirm that it worked reliably for well over a year — once I neutered all the updating tasks and services that Microsoft throws into the mix.

        Eventually though I gave WUMgr a try; and compared it to my own method of blocking updates.  And it seemed to work just as well as my own script files.  For me, WUMgr just seems simpler and more straightforward; and it’s been blocking updates just as reliably as my custom scripts.  So for nearly 2 years now I’ve been using WUMgr to handle the updating of my Win 10 systems; and I’ve never yet had an unwanted update from MS sneak past it.  The only updates that get installed are the ones I explicitly allow thru.

        On the other hand, I’m always open to adding additional defenses.  And your method sounds worthwhile:

        Blocking Windows Update from within Windows is a losing game of wack-a-mole. It needs to be blocked in the router by blocking the 6 or 7 or 8 domains that it tries to access. I have done that for quite a while and it works.

        I’d be curious to know which specific domains it is that you’re blocking, especially since it sounds like your router method has been working pretty well for you even without WUMgr or other blocking methods within Windows.  If you wouldn’t mind sharing that list of domains, there’s probably a number of people here that would like to set up similar blocking in their routers.  I know I would.  You can never have enough defenses against unwanted or untested updates from MS.

         

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    • #2382754

      Why not just use the registry to pause the updates until say 2050?

      Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

      [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsUpdate\UX\Settings]
      “PauseFeatureUpdatesStartTime”=”2015-01-01T12:00:00Z”
      “PauseQualityUpdatesStartTime”=”2015-01-01T12:00:00Z”
      “PauseUpdatesExpiryTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”
      “PauseFeatureUpdatesEndTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”
      “PauseQualityUpdatesEndTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”

      [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsUpdate\UpdatePolicy\Settings]
      “PausedQualityStatus”=dword:00000001
      “PausedFeatureStatus”=dword:00000001

    • #2382870

      I am pretty sure that Windows Update can not be blocked simply by disabling the WU service

      It can be block by number of 3rd party portable free apps :

      Free Update Blocker tools to Stop Automatic Windows 10 Updates

      Windows Update Blocker
      StopUpdates10
      Wu10Man
      Kill-Update
      WuMgr
      Win Update Stop
      Win Updates Disabler
      WAU Manager….

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      • #2382976

        One upside to blocking domains is that it works for all the computers on the LAN. Another is that Microsoft keeps changing Windows Update so there is always a chance that software that used to block WU, no longer does. And then there is the question of what exactly is the software doing? Some of the programs I looked at did not get into the details of exactly what they do. That makes me nervous.

        Not that these programs are bad or that they don’t work. My preference however is domain blocking. That said, when it comes time to install bug fixes, unblocking domains is a chore, so I bypass the router using a VPN. Every coin has two sides 🙂

        Get up to speed on router security at RouterSecurity.org and Defensive Computing at DefensiveComputingChecklist.com

    • #2382878

      It needs to be blocked in the router by blocking the 6 or 7 or 8 domains that it tries to access.

      Remember when people blocked Windows Update using the HOSTS file… so Microsoft stopped using HOSTS?

      I think you can be fairly certain that Microsoft will randomly rotate sub-domains so blocking domains could easily lead to services other than Windows Update falling over.

      Remember the Microsoft 365 outages of last November which Microsoft blamed on “a configuration update to components that route user requests“.

      How do you know Microsoft weren’t swapping domain routing around to prevent Windows Update blocking? 🙂

      Isn’t that the point of Azure’s cloud.net sub-domains? So routing changes can be propagated easily if virtual IP address blocks are changed on-the-fly to prevent end-users trying to circumvent what Microsoft want?

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      • #2382880

        I put those 7 or 8 domains in the reply above. Its awaiting moderation. There are 14 domains in total.
        Those domains can be found here: LINK

        Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

        HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

        PRUSA i3 MK3S+

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        • #2382970

          I found the domains that I block by tracing all the domains that a Windows system tries to access when it is doing nothing. You don’t have to wait too long to see Windows Update activity. For this, I suggest the DNS Query Sniffer program by Nir Sofer at nirsoft.net. Mr. Sofer makes excellent software that is both free and portable.

          Get up to speed on router security at RouterSecurity.org and Defensive Computing at DefensiveComputingChecklist.com

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2383427

            Seems like Ive entered the “rabbit hole” with the program you recommended. I am amazed how many and what addresses are accessed when simply opening promgrams from start menu and launching application. Thanks for recommendation.

            Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

            HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

            PRUSA i3 MK3S+

      • #2382969

        Windows still has a hosts file, but I have heard that for Windows Update it may ignore some domains there. All part of forcing the installation of updates.

        I have seen Windows 10 call out to a Microsoft owned DNS server when it could not resolve the needed domains for Windows Update. That is, rather than use the DNS servers from the router, Windows called home to a DNS server that it knew had the right IP addresses. Specifically 162.159.36.2 which is hosted at Cloudflare.

        As for rotation domains, this can be dealt with too. There are two ways to block a domain, specific and generic. One way blocks abc.mydomain.com and nothing else. The other blocks any domain that ends with abc.mydomain.com. For ex, it blocks x.abc.mydomain.com and something.abc.mydomain.com. Generic blocking goes a long way.

        Get up to speed on router security at RouterSecurity.org and Defensive Computing at DefensiveComputingChecklist.com

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2383063

      Why not just use the registry to pause the updates until say 2050?

      Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

      [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsUpdate\UX\Settings]
      “PauseFeatureUpdatesStartTime”=”2015-01-01T12:00:00Z”
      “PauseQualityUpdatesStartTime”=”2015-01-01T12:00:00Z”
      “PauseUpdatesExpiryTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”
      “PauseFeatureUpdatesEndTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”
      “PauseQualityUpdatesEndTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”

      [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsUpdate\UpdatePolicy\Settings]
      “PausedQualityStatus”=dword:00000001
      “PausedFeatureStatus”=dword:00000001

      may not work for certain Win10 versions or editions.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2383320

      There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’

      No, there won’t according to Microsoft.

      There are good reasons not to force an incompatible system to upgrade to Windows 11. One is a probable large performance hit with all the required security enabled on an older chip or hardware configuration:

      Others have reported that turning on Secured Core features on Intel’s 6th-gen Skylake would impact performance by as much as 30 percent, which might explain why fairly recent 6th gen chips got cut. But what explains Intel’s $2,000 18-core Skylake-X chip? We initially thought the CPU was a mirror of the cores from the mainstream version, but it turns out the Skylake-X cores are revised supports running HVCI as well as Kaby Lake does.

      https://www.pcworld.com/article/3623713/why-windows-11-is-leaving-so-many-pcs-behind.html

      That’s a big performance hit. And it can also happen with some 7th-gen Intel chips.

      Microsoft had to draw the line somewhere. They chose to be sure the user experience would not suffer too horrendously.

      -- rc primak

      • #2383340

        They chose to be sure the user experience would not suffer too horrendously.

        Based on how Microsoft seems to have shown very little regard for much of the user feedback to Windows 10 over the past few years, I doubt that they care very much at all about the “user experience“.

        From that same PCWorld article:

        There’s also the larger question of why Microsoft won’t simply let people turn off those security features if they slow down the computers so much, but that’s a different discussion around how forward Microsoft wants to move the chain on improving the baseline security of every Windows 11 PC.

        And if your (somewhat) recently purchased PC is incompatible with Windows 11, well that’s just too darn bad.  Users are clearly not smart enough to decide for themselves if those new security features are worthwhile enough to justify scrapping and replacing their current systems.  So instead of providing an option for users to choose how to balance security versus performance, we’ll just make the decision for you.  How user-friendly.

        In other words, MS knows what’s best for you. You will be assimilated!

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2383438

        bbearren wrote:
        There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’

        For example :

        WinPass11 v0.1.2

        A tool for installing Windows 11 on unsupported hardware in a one click installer.

        Easily run a single executable and have access to Windows 11 through the dev channel without having to worry about unsupported hardware.

        Execute the program named: WinPass11Auto.exe. You should be asked by UAC to run as administrator, if not, re-run as administrator.

        But this app installs dev version.

        • #2383466

          WinPass11 v0.1.2

          A tool for installing Windows 11 on unsupported hardware in a one click installer. Easily run a single executable and have access to Windows 11 through the dev channel without having to worry about unsupported hardware. Execute the program named: WinPass11Auto.exe. You should be asked by UAC to run as administrator, if not, re-run as administrator. But this app installs dev version.

          Unnecessary.  I don’t use One-Click-Wonder apps for anything.

           

          Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
          "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
          "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      • #2383461

        There are good reasons not to force an incompatible system to upgrade to Windows 11.

        Not necessarily.

        One is a probable large performance hit with all the required security enabled on an older chip or hardware configuration:

        “Required” is a relative term.  Windows 11 will have a registry and a C:\Windows folder.

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
        "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

    • #2383335

      On the last part of Fred’s  article:

      My original concept for Windows 10 Home vs. Pro: A real-life test drive (AskWoody Plus 2021-07-19) fell through at the 11th hour.

      Fred — I hope you do come back to this topic. I would find it very interesting to get your perspective on this. Especially if there are changes in the differences as Windows 11 gets rolled out.

      -- rc primak

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2384186

      Intel and AMD Processors NOT Supported by Windows 11

      • #2384261

        Was this meant to be a link? Otherwise, I don’t understand.

        Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1288 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

    • #2384350

      Getting back to the topic title…

      I believe Microsoft’s almost sole raison d’etre for Windows 11 is to force users into a walled garden like its cash-rich rival Apple ecosystem (and, to a much lesser extent, Amazon), not just to implement DRM* but, as a side-benefit, to stop inveterate ‘tinkerers’ (like me) from fiddling under the bonnet.

      It will be trivial for Microsoft to force-implement full telemetry that many/most users currently restrict to minimal and just as trivial – using the same ‘fingerprinting’ used for detection of malware – to prevent third-party tools currently used to block Windows Updates. The same goes for the registry. Why block access to certain keys when you can block access to the entire registry?

      Remember also that TPM chips have unique serial nos. that are remotely identifiable… and trackable over the internet.

      Despite what it puts out for consumption, I believe Windows 11 is for Microsoft’s benefit… not ours. As a result I’m not going to panic… but I’m preparing myself to mourn the passing of individual freedom when it comes to the next Windows… due in ~2 months. 🙂

      *I haven’t seen it myself (‘cos I have ‘News’ and advertising disabled) but note that Microsoft is apparently already advertising the availability of movies. This, I believe, is why DRM is so important to them. They know that kids stream and view movies on their PCs/laptops. What if Microsoft held the keys to the digital kingdom now shared between Netflix, iTunes and Amazon? A walled-garden revenue stream just ripe for harvesting. (Except I think this will backfire in Microsoft’s face.)

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