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  • Just smile & wave bye-bye…

    Home Forums AskWoody support Windows Windows 8.1 Questions: Win 8.1 (and Win 8) Just smile & wave bye-bye…

    This topic contains 94 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  markusoft 1 month, 3 weeks ago.

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    • #1771949 Reply

      Drew1903

      Just to add to this, regarding Search; yes, one can go through Charms & using his example begin typing N-O… once you then click on Notepad, it appears back on Desktop. But, it is, also, not necessary or the only way, to go via Charms… WinQ (all Applications), WinW (Settings) & WinF (Files) OR, also, hit the Start button OR WinKey and begin typing anywhere, N-O & again, hit Notepad & it opens back on Desktop… carry on w/ whatever you were doing.

      The writer of the article has been using Win8 for 2 months. I have been using it for 7 months and I will definitely vouch for what he says; there, absolutely is no suffering from the lack of the old start menu or button. And, yes, one can access things quicker & more directly w/ Windows8… and, btw, this is w/out using the Start screen (except, maybe, for the occasional Search) or any 3rd Party add-ins or retro-fits… they are not needed, @ all. And I will, still, fully support what he says, even though my usage is on a NON-TOUCH PC. The ‘flow’ of navigating, is, still, indeed, smooth, quick & easy, even w/ a mouse.

      As I have previously said, it is wrong telling people there is a problem due to a lack of start button/menu. Would be better, more helpful & appropriate to tell them how to use what IS Windows8 which, (actually) has a Start button & no need for (going through) the old start menu.

      http://www.zdnet.com/removing-start-for-windows-8-was-the-right-thing-to-do-7000005631/

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818291 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      I have just uninstalled Classic Shell and added the Desktop Toolbar. I will be using the Desktop UI in this manner until the release date of Win 8 Pro. I will see if it grows on my a little more. I am keeping my Favorites Bar Toolbar and my Shortcuts Toolbar I have previously discussed (I used these since Win 7 anyway so why not continue).

      Honestly I did not use Classic Shell for much, but did access certain stuff from there. We’ll see what we shall see.

    • #1818292 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      Windows8 which, (actually) has a Start button

      Where?

      Bruce

      Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

    • #1818293 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      The rectangular item that shows up when you place your cursor in the lower left corner is considered the Win 8 Start Button. It does indeed take you to the Win 8 Start Menu (Modern UI Start Menu).

      • #1818299 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        The rectangular item that shows up when you place your cursor in the lower left corner is considered the Win 8 Start Button. It does indeed take you to the Win 8 Start Menu (Modern UI Start Menu).

        I think only you and Drew call that a Start Button and a Start Menu. 😉

        Bruce

        Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

        • #1818310 Reply

          WSJohn259
          AskWoody Lounger

          I think only you and Drew call that a Start Button and a Start Menu. 😉

          Bruce

          I read somewhere that right-clicking the desktop bottom left corner Start Tip invokes a vestige of the traditional Start Button with various control panel, administration and similar computer management options. Perhaps that’s what was meant?

          • #1818316 Reply

            Drew1903

            John, that menu to which you refer is called, Power Users menu. & yes, both are @ the Bottom-Left Corner.

            ————————————————

            Um, not really, Bruce. See if one goes to that icon it says “Start” on it & takes one to the “Start” screen. The idea is that the Start screen & its Tiles is supposed to be used as a (graphical) start menu. But, there are other ways to get to the same things.

            Cheers,
            Drew

            • #1818317 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Plus

              Um, not really, Bruce. See if one goes to that icon it says “Start” on it & takes one to the “Start” screen.

              No button. No menu.

              Bruce

              Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

    • #1818294 Reply

      Drew1903

      Bottom-Left Corner, Bruce. Personally, I only use it for the occasional Search, IF, I don’t Search in some other way. But, if or when, someone wants to use Start screen Tiles, as Ted said, it goes to them, too, of course.

      ————————————————————————–

      Ted, if you want, Favorites & all/any desktop shortcuts/icons can or will be in w/ the Desktop Toolbar allowing you to have 1 instead of 3. Of course, it’s whatever you prefer. Hope you can see this picture of my Desktop Toolbar to see what I mean…

      Cheers,
      Drew

      • #1818295 Reply

        WShandcuff36
        AskWoody Lounger

        Hello, Drew.

        Back on W-8 after being away for a while and picking up on things.

        Nice pix of your DT and your start menu. What do you use for this ?

        I have been using the Quick launch and am quite content with it, my thing ! JP.

        • #1818300 Reply

          Drew1903

          Hi JP,

          At the onset I did use Quick Launch. I’ve always been a big fan of QL. I had stopped using the old start menu long, long ago but, did use QL. I have put in forums how to put it in OSs that do not have it (post Vista) and I always gave it to my clients. However, after, discovering how redundant it was or became in Win8, I dropped it. Not that I am discouraging you from (using) it, @ all. Besides pinning a few things to the Taskbar, having an Applications folder/window on the Taskbar & the so-called Power Users menu I was left w/ no need for QL, anymore.

          Anyway, to answer your query…

          Rt Clk on Taskbar
          1st item on pop-up menu is Toolbars, 1 of which is Desktop (this is not new or peculiar to Win8, btw). Now, in addition to what is part of it, showing on or in it, any & all desktop icons or shortcuts will be there… which means they don’t need to show on the screen.

          The other one I enable is Links. This is equivalent to Favorites Bar content. Ergo, from Links one can select a site from there w/out even having a browser open 1st & hitting another site from Links will add that one to an open browser window, as a new tab. Plus, it makes it so once something is added to the Favorites Bar
          it can be ‘hidden’, leaving the browser body that much larger… the (browser) bars only need show when or while one needs them.

          Cheers,
          Drew

          • #1818301 Reply

            WShandcuff36
            AskWoody Lounger

            Drew, thanks for the tutorage.
            You wrote : any & all desktop icons or shortcuts will be there…
            Oooopss ! I do not have any desktop icon, not one, except the Desktop one. Your note calls for more studying which I will do after adding a few icons as a trial. The .jpg that you showed, to me, is like a vertical Quick Launch. Hi ! hi ! :o: I have 12 items on my QL, I will move them up just to test. You be good.

    • #1818296 Reply

      WSjwitalka
      AskWoody Lounger

      The biggest problem with windows 8 search is that you have to know in advance whether Microsoft Microsoft has listed it under Apps or settings. I’ve guessed wrong more than once. In both windows 7, all you needed to do was hit the start orb and start typing. The search included apps, settings, and files. In windows 8, you need to select the appropriate search. This is not progress….

      Jerry

    • #1818297 Reply

      Drew1903

      Jerry,

      If, one start typing to Settings & it’s, actually in Files the number of items will shows beside Files suggesting that is the category when the items, actually and so you switch to that. Look I know it’s this or that… the point is only to show people how & where to help them out w/ what it is, w/ how things are & are done. Bottom line, when using 8 that’s how it is. No matter what any of us say or feel, good or bad, it is what it is.

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818298 Reply

      WSruirib
      AskWoody Lounger

      I, for one, can’t really see a good reason for the removal of the Start button. My daily usage of Windows 8 has shown me that it could be useful and the supposed replacement is much worse. This is what my usage has shown.

      I have and I agree with Jerry regarding search – I see no reason to split it, either.

      On the plus side, the touch interface works well on touch enabled screens. Even with my screen supporting only one touch point, I have quite liked the new PDF app and the way to interact with it using touch – safe for the very dumb way to get to a print option.

      Still think Windows 8 is worth the upgrade, but I believe some UI design decisions were detrimental to usability.

    • #1818303 Reply

      Drew1903

      JP,

      You’re welcome.

      I think it sounds like you are confusing Desktop icons w/ Win8 Start screen Tiles. I meant the desktop icons that often cover up a Users pretty wallpaper picture(s). Traditional desktop screen icons & shortcuts not, Start screen Tiles. They will be part of the Desktop Toolbar & will, Still, be there, even, if you Rt Clk on the desktop & uncheck “Show Desktop Icons”.

      And, yes, can, certainly, have no Tile but, Desktop on the Win8 Start screen.

      Cheers,
      Drew

      • #1818307 Reply

        WShandcuff36
        AskWoody Lounger

        Good morning to you Drew.

        No, I do not have this confusion here about icons and tiles. See my next .jpg. I got something going but it is all showing the Gmail favs, not the W-8 ones. I will be working on it further when it rains. Such a nice day here, got to go outside.

        Thanks. JP.

        • #1818314 Reply

          Drew1903

          Ah, ok, JP, the ‘confusion’ was mine… Now I see you were talking about the (My) Computer desktop icon, not the Desktop Tile. I get so used to having no icons on the desktop & so much talk relative to the Start screen but, anyway…

          Back to the Favorites issue. > WinE, then via the Nav Tree > :C > Users > Your Name > Favorites Folder, Rt Clk, Send to Desktop. Now you can open Favorites from the Desktop Toolbar. It will, of course, also, appear on the desktop screen unless & until you uncheck Desktop Icons from showing.

          Cheers,
          Drew

          • #1818366 Reply

            WShandcuff36
            AskWoody Lounger

            Hello Drew. A lot has taken place here on this subject, all to the good. You wrote at me :
            Ah, ok, JP, the ‘confusion’ was mine… Now I see you were talking about the (My) Computer desktop icon, not the Desktop Tile. I get so used to having no icons on the desktop & so much talk relative to the Start screen but, anyway…

            I was talking about the Desktop tile, that is the only one that I have on my screen and I just “Enter” when I see it and I am running on W-8 with my background.jpg. Having the Quick Launch set up, then I only have to hit the desired app and I can do my work, (fun ) ! The QL to me is like the tiles.

            Then you wrote this :
            Back to the Favorites issue. > WinE, then via the Nav Tree > :C > Users > Your Name > Favorites Folder, Rt Clk, Send to Desktop. Now you can open Favorites from the Desktop Toolbar. It will, of course, also, appear on the desktop screen unless & until you uncheck Desktop Icons from showing.

            I went through the steps so nicely explained and it worked, no surprise here. This is not what I desired, my Favs are on the QL and thus simpler to access.

            A funny thing happened on the way to the market. I will include a .jpg of my QL. At the far left, you will see a folder that I moved to that far extreme as I never use it. The label on it is :Windows Explorer”. Was it not supposed to be “File Explorer” in W-8 ??? I never us it, I know where what is at and I open up C: and I fetch it if it is not on my QL. Sinatra would say : I do it my way !

            Whatever Samsung does for the low-end user is not my cup, Medico mentioned that some well binary educated users need not the Start button, humbly stated, I do not need it either. Give two new machines to two different users and in a week, they will be so different. Rui mentioned that perceptions do not exist but they are observable.

    • #1818318 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      Bruce, In the truest sense the Start Rectangle is a button because when you click on it, it does give a “user interface element that provides the user a simple way to trigger an event”

      The Event is the opening of the Start “menu is a list of options or commands presented to an operator by a computer or communications system” The Start Menu gives a list of optional apps that can be started, just as the Start Orb did.

    • #1818324 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      Ted; I don’t think a button can be invisible and a menu is a text list. Why not stick to the names that Microsoft uses for the elements?

      You have both chastised others for continuing to call Windows 8 UI “Metro”. Using obsolete names for new features causes confusion.

      The article which prompted this thread was all about the lack of a start button in Windows 8; It makes no sense to say that it’s got one.

      Bruce

      (BTW, what is Drew suggesting we should wave bye-bye to in the title of this thread?)

      Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

      • #1818325 Reply

        BATcher
        AskWoody_MVP

        (BTW, what is Drew suggesting we should wave bye-bye to in the title of this thread?)

        Logic? Reason? Sanity? Who can say? :rolleyes:

        BATcher
    • #1818328 Reply

      Drew1903

      Maybe to going on & on about this start button/menu thing. The fact is instead of the old start button visible on the taskbar & producing a text menu… now there is a Start icon that isn’t seen til one ‘pokes’ @ the Bottom-Left Corner then the idea is one gets a graphical ‘start menu’ of a screen of Tiles. One either works w/ that concept or doesn’t; that is choice, an option… myself, I prefer to not use that screen. But, @ the same time, using 8 as IS possible, the lack of the old start button/menu arrangement does not present a problem for ME. I guess I’m saying or suggesting ‘smile’ cus it beats frowning & ‘good-bye’ to what’s gone cus it ain’t coming back.; fighting it or complaining accomplishes nothing.. well except maybe frustration for some. For me, I don’t really care since I can use 8 quite nicely & enjoyably as is AND I had quit using the old start menu long ago, except maybe to occasionally get @ its Search box. I’d been using QL and whatever… now I don’t even need that, anymore. It’s subjective & personal. But, we either deal w/ it or beat our heads against the wall… personally, I can’t be bothered taking the time to wash to blood off the walls.

      But, seriously, I just mean by the title, make the best of things & let the old stuff go… cus it’s gone. I have simply tried to explain that it doesn’t need to be missed so badly. Myself, I can fly all over the place, easier & faster than in 7 & that’s w/out the Start screen & w/out CS. But, hey, maybe that’s just me… or maybe not… certainly doesn’t have to be. But, I can smile instead of getting troubled by what IS & just let it (the old) go.

      There are some who have seen value & expressed thanks for some of the methods & tips I’ve offered. Some will, some won’t & that’s ok.

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818340 Reply

      Drew1903

      Yes, we had already heard about this. And it’s ok, not necessary but, still, fine. Caters to a myth (that such a thing is needed) & to humans (read, old dogs) not learning new tricks but, no worries. Saves people unnecessarily adding Classic Shell.

      Nor does it change the fact that 8 works just fine w/out such indulgences.

      But, it’s, still, Windows8 & may help Samsung sell a couple more machines.

      It is not coming back from Microsoft. What OEMs do is another story.

      Cheers,
      Drew

      • #1818342 Reply

        WSTinto Tech
        AskWoody Lounger

        Re the Samsung Quick Starter…..why would they (Samsung) spend time and money developing such a thing unless their market research suggested that their customers wanted it?

        Maybe it can provide some telemetry, perhaps it adds additional features (we won’t know if it does until it’s released), but as noted above, I suspect the truth is that Samsung are reacting to what their market intelligence data tells them.

        Whether the opinions or needs suggested by that data are valid or agreed by all is irrelevant: Samsung exists to make money and if its customers say they would like to have a feature or function then Samsung are most likely going to find a way to give it to them.

        The next few months will be really interesting to see if more OEM’s do something similar. If they do, I think it will be reacting to a perceived need in the market and quite a blow to MS, who may then feel the need to implement tighter control in order to maintain their direction.

    • #1818341 Reply

      WSruirib
      AskWoody Lounger

      Microsoft probably should thank the OEMs, making up for their own blunders.

    • #1818343 Reply

      Drew1903

      perceived need Not necessarily real but, perceived. And perceived as a blunder. As stated will likely help Samsung sell a few machines in accordance will people (customers) being told or hearing it is needed… regardless of whether it is, actually needed or not; it’s not but, what the hell, throw it in…saves people learning or discovering the OS works w/out such additions. Though, no harm, no foul.

      It’s just playing to the human craving for the familiar. Cool marketing strategy.

      Remember, all are allowed opinions & opinions, by nature, vary.

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818345 Reply

      WSTinto Tech
      AskWoody Lounger

      Many years ago somebody once said to me something along the lines of “If, as a genuine reaction, a person has a perception of something that is different from accepted reality, then it is as real to them as the ground is solid and trying to convince them otherwise will end in pain”.

      So, perception is relative. Technically, this Samsung Quick Starter is not needed in order to use the OS. But what does “use the OS” mean? Does it mean usability or does it mean acceptability, or does it mean use as the designers would desire?

      No doubt Samsung’s data suggests to them that many people will perceive they need this feature, regardless of the technical position. Samsung are reacting to that and I suspect other OEM’s may do so too.

      The real problem for our industry is the change to the GUI is so radical that if OEM’s do head down the route of offering an aftermarket fix, the market will fragment and standardisation will evaporate. A Samsung Win8 PC may end up looking very different to a Toshiba or a Dell. That’s OK for techies – we have to cope with that every day, but Joe Public may be further confused and our jobs made harder.

    • #1818346 Reply

      WSruirib
      AskWoody Lounger

      Is not everything a perception? There is no such thing as reality, all is perception of reality. All needs are perceived and if they aren’t, then they are not needs.

      It’s absolutely obvious to me that having a Start button would actually benefit the number of copies purchased, regardless of the fact that the number will run into the hundreds of millions, but I am quite sure a few hundreds of thousands (millions?) will be lost because of that decision.

    • #1818349 Reply

      anonymous

      Yes, ‘TT’, lack of consistency confuses. There is a good reason standardization exists in many, many things.

      ———————————————————————————————————————

      There is a start button… but, some folks don’t like what it does or where it leads and treat it as a problem & tell others it’s a problem. As much as some try to say Microsoft is forcing something on people ( cus you don’t see it as likable) an added-in workaround is being forced on people or they are being subtlety forced into thinking, believing it’s a necessity. Wonder how far anyone would get if instead they were told they don’t need the Win8 Start button, any more than the Win7 start button was/is needed?? Or tell them there’s no need for where the Win8 Start button goes… instead of saying the Start screen & its Tiles stink, tell them they don’t need to use any of it. Try helping them w/ how you can steer them from what you think is so stupid & ugly & how 8 will work w/out ITS Start button & w/out the START screen it goes to & the Tiles… all the Modern UI (or whatever name) that some say is categorically so bad but, why not guide them to that w/out instead telling them they have to add something or that they have to dress up Win8 to look like or act like something different. That was then, this is now.

      Condemn & confuse. Instead, just, w/out bashing something, offer a positive. If you think people are going to or should hate the Win8 Start screen/Tile graphical start menu concept… then just show them how the OS works w/out that screen or using ITS Start button. Are you advocating TWO Start buttons & 2 Start menus & adding confusion?

      If you don’t like the Win8 Start button & its Start screen, fine, don’t use either but, to then, add another, geeesh… just use the things w/out the button & screen… it’s not hard to do, not 1 bit.

      Oh man (sigh)

      Getting all philosophical over a start button, geeesh. Come on, people. Many don’t use it or the tile screen AND, newsflash… w/out adding in anything instead or pretending it’s some other OS.

      Pheeeew, ok, there, feel much better, now. Venting is so therapeutic 😀

      Cheers,
      Drew

      • #1818368 Reply

        WSruirib
        AskWoody Lounger

        Getting all philosophical over a start button, geeesh. Come on, people. Many don’t use it or the tile screen AND, newsflash… w/out adding in anything instead or pretending it’s some other OS.

        What’s that? You can’t be confronted on the ground you chose? You were the one who said the need was perceived. Why can’t people rebut what you write if they disagree?

        In your (misguided) efforts to pretend there is nothing wrong with the choices made by Microsoft, you actually make it worse, because you are obviously trying to deny something perceived by many in a way completely different to your own way.

        You know, for many years I worked on developing software meant to be used by others. I worked with users and worked with UI developers, so that the UI of the software could be adapted to the users needs. I would never dare say to a user something like “hey, the problem you think you have, forget it, because it is not real, you are just perceiving it as a problem”. In a very funny way, your attitude is similar to the late Steve Jobs, in his famous “you’re holding the phone wrong” tirade. I think that says it all.

        Do not deny a reality, just because you perceive it differently. If users think the lack of Start button is an issue, then do not deny it. Work to solve it, in a satisfactory way for such users. Samsung is just getting ahead of the issue and, in my view, they are doing the right thing.

        Having invested most of my career in Microsoft’s technologies, I wish they hadn’t done this. I like Windows 8, I have the RTM installed in my laptop, I use it everyday. When I get back to my 7 desktop, I am always looking for stuff that only 8 offers. That doesn’t mean that I have to think removing the Start button was a good move. I am glad some OEM’s are making up for what I think was a wrong decision by Microsoft. It will help less experienced users not to disregard what is the best OS Microsoft has produced.

        I like the Start screen. I think, however, that it is an horrible replacement to the Start menu. The concepts are different and should have been kept different. Having one should not have meant that you should not have the other. Allowing users to customize the UI would have been the smart thing to do and it would have been beneficial to everyone, Microsoft included.
        My opinion on this represents a change. I thought I wouldn’t really miss the Start button, but I actually do and the taskbar is no replacement, either. I have the taskbar full of pinned apps and it doesn’t make up for the lack of a decent Start button.

    • #1818350 Reply

      WSTinto Tech
      AskWoody Lounger

      Drew, I’m not sure if the paragraphs below your dotted line were aimed at me, or just venting your spleen to feel better: it’s difficult to follow your thought process there.

      Whether we as IT engineers agree or not is immaterial. Samsung have chosen to spend time and money developing something that, I contend, they feel their customers will benefit from. Is it required in order for the OS to function? As noted earlier, technically no, but for usability, branding or whatever, Samsung may have decided that their existing and future customer base will benefit from it.

      Noteworthy how this approach differs from that of Microsoft, and as I speculated earlier, I think it will be very interesting to see how the OEM market moves over the run-up to the holiday season.

      • #1818361 Reply

        WSJohn259
        AskWoody Lounger

        Noteworthy how this approach differs from that of Microsoft

        Indeed.

        As I see it (could be wrong of course) Samsung’s objective is to sell hardware whereas Microsoft’s objective is to sell Metro/Modern UI and thereby gain a percentage from the sales of its apps (and probably their advertising space).

    • #1818352 Reply

      Drew1903

      Expect Samsung not to be the only manufacturer that does something similar. I, already, know they aren’t the only brand assuming people can’t take 8 w/out the sort of thing being injected.

      & nothing I’m seeing, saying or feeling is aimed @ specific individuals… just concepts.

      Just gotta deal w/ whatever. No worries. Doesn’t really, ultimately matter what I think, anyway. For months I’ve found all the stuff over the UI, the button, menu & tiles or not… a silly, misguided, misdirected mountain out of mole hill & putting a dampener over a pretty darn good OS. I’m prolly nuts for finding it makes no sense to give people a pacifier instead of help w/ using the OS w/out unneeded complexities. It’s ok to ignore my words & maybe warped mind.

      But, I do feel better for getting it off my chest. I know hard to follow sometimes… I’ve never liked typing to replace talking & conversation feels more natural & normal than writing notes (back n forth)

      I’ve only had to start that since they invented computers, LOL

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818354 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      “Perception is everything!” The way human beings perceive something is their reality. That is a fact. This perception is based on their experience.

      With Win 8, this drastic change will catch the vast numbers of users unawares. They will have no concept of how to use this OS. The vast majority of the users of this OS do not visit these forums. Heck, most probably have no idea these forums exist. They just want to push a button and see something familiar. They have a perception of what there PC should look like after they push that button. They will be in for a shock. The first time I turned on Win 8 DP I said “What the hell is this garbage? This is crazy! How do I do anything?” And I do spend a little time on Forums. I had read what little was available at the time about using Win 8.

      What Samsung, and I suspect other OEM’s, is doing is offering a change that might help to prevent that new user from returning their new PC for a refund after cursing for hours on end trying to figure out this new OS. This people will have no idea where to go for answers. They expect to turn on their PC and have it work the way they are accustomed to.

      @drew: Yes you can teach the customers you build a PC for how to use this OS. You can customize it for their use. I’m sure you build in some sort of training and support in to your price structure. The large resellers do not. They price their PC’s to compete with the other resellers. They charge extra for the training or customization. Most users do not want to pay extra for this stuff.

      These add-ons that you continue to condemn as not needed are needed by the masses that are expecting something familiar when they push that power button on their brand new PC. Most will not know how to get to the familiar Desktop UI. Perhaps a few will see the Desktop Tile when they power on their PC, but it is not in the upper left corner by default. So simply tapping Enter will not work. Even powering down the PC is not a simple one-click with the Modern UI.

      It does not take a large effort to customize a Win 8 PC so that it looks and acts like Win 7. As I have said, it takes about 1/2 hour effort, if you know where to look to get the information. The masses will not have any idea where to look. Do you really thing the “Geek Squad” will have the answers for their customers?

      If the OEM’s add these items by default, that would be even better for their customers IMO. Samsung may not be going far enough. Their customers may not know how to get this new add-on unless they are given specific instructions in how.

      Perhaps after a few years of using this Modern UI that is Win 8, when Win 9 is released there will not be as much of a shock. Perhaps by then their will be some descent apps available from the App Store to actually get some work done. Until then the masses will need a lot of help.

      I think Win 8 is one of the slickest, most polished OS’s I have used, and I have used them all since 3.1. I like it a lot, but if I had to use the Modern UI without any knowledge of how to get to the Desktop I would still be saying “What the hell is this garbage? This is crazy! How do I do anything?”

      Enough rant, sorry for the long post.

    • #1818358 Reply

      Drew1903

      Honestly, Ted, I get it. It’s just I remember my being initially confronted w/ Win8. My eyes fell on the same stuff as anyone. @ that moment I really didn’t have a clue either, well maybe some, I read a lot, even before Build in 9/11. But, still, I recall it did not take hours to figure it out & what parts had me scratching my head, I didn’t need forums or the (biting my tongue) ____ @ Geek Squad… Now don’t be too shocked… I looked @ “Getting Started” & “Help” sections of or in the OS itself. Instructions were being shoved right in my face… the info IS presented, isn’t it… & won’t that be the case in GA?

      Are we really giving people the credit they deserve?

      And, yes, thanks for saying it… the 2 catch phrases of my company are “Working w/ People not just Equipment” and “Education Begets Empowerment”… so, yep, things get explained. But, that’s one reason machines should be bought from Consultants not, off the shelf @ big box stores. I know, I know… dream on, sweet prince

      I do agree, will be MUCH different going from 8 to 9.

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818364 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      But Drew, you are very PC literate, much more so than even your customers. You’re right, in my case I also eventually found my way around and by Win 8 CP release was using Win 8 full time. The people I’m talking about are the majority that do not have PC knowledge, are very novice, and do not read a lot of PC sites are magazines or whatever. These people will be totally lost without some help.

    • #1818371 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      I also very much like Win 8 and if asked I will recommend it to everyone who will listen, but, I will also tell people to expect to be shocked. I will also attempt to help lessen the shock factor by recommending a Start Orb replacement and setting it to allow automatic re-direction to the Desktop UI. At this point, the shock factor will be lessened enough to start showing ways to use Win 8 that they might find enjoyable.

      The whole point is to lessen the shock enough to get people to be able to use Win 8, to make it seem more familiar. In this way these people, the ones who wish to, can start exploring for themselves, to customize Win 8 to work the way they want it. And for those that just use their PC for email and surfing and looking at the pictures their family send, well these Start Menu replacements will help make their experience more enjoyable from day 1. These people will never find their way around Win 8.

      If we can’t get people past this initial shock and get them to familiar ground quickly, they may just give up on Win 8. I’m not talking about the people that upgrade their present OS to Win 8, these people should already be somewhat aware of what they are getting themselves into. I’m talking about John Q Public that has never heard of Win 8 or perhaps has heard of it but has no concept of what the difference is and goes out to buy a new PC from the “Geek Squad”. The OEM’s want these people to be happy with their purchase and should attempt to make the transition a happy one.

      I also do not use the Start Menu often, but I do use it. I tried the Desktop Toolbar, have been using it for a couple of days again (I did try it previously as well), and I find it takes more clicks to get to the app or feature I want on the less used features than with the replacement Start Menu. I just installed Start8 to give it a try. I used Classic Shell for quite a while, now I’m trying something else before I decide what I will do on Oct. 26th.

      • #1818386 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        The whole point is to lessen the shock enough to get people to be able to use Win 8, to make it seem more familiar. …

        I also do not use the Start Menu often, but I do use it.

        I think you and Drew will confuse people by insisting that Windows 8 has a Start Button and Start Menu, when the rest of the world agrees that it has neither.

        And it’s ironic since you both avoid the Start screen as much as possible. I don’t understand how you’re going to justify both to people who have yet to see it.

        ”Where is the Start button or Start menu? The Start screen replaces the Start menu in Windows 8.” http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/faq

        Bruce

        Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

    • #1818373 Reply

      WSjwitalka
      AskWoody Lounger

      I also have come to like Windows 8 but I continue to use the start button offered with classic shell. Yes, you can learn all of the facilities to run Windows 8 without it but the Start button puts many things in one place and one click (Power on/off, universal file, program, control search) while the Windows 8 methodology requires multiple steps for the same functions.

      Jerry

    • #1818374 Reply

      WSF.U.N. downtown
      AskWoody Lounger

      What ruirib said is really really good! For real or not, I read so much condescension between the lines from guys like Medico and Drew1908. It’s like, “yeah, we met the challenge and conquered what Microsoft threw at us and now we wouldn’t want to be without it…yeah, all that stuff you naysayers comment on isn’t really missed, or can be compensated for easily with a little hocus pocus, and the rest of you are basically troglodytes for not seeing it our way.”
      I haven’t even sniffed Windows 8 yet even from afar by the way, just going by what I read and I have no opinion on Win8 one way or the other; although from everything I hear from very knowledgeable people like Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley, there is a more of the “Steve Jobs influence” than ever before. They reference that very subject many times in their podcast they do together.
      Maybe I’m reading too much into it when I say condescension but it sure does read as dismissive at the very least, and it doesn’t seem like you’re really interested in computer usage, but rather in OS useage.

      Windows used to be the ultimate in consumer (gotta throw that word in so LINUX doesn’t sic me!) customization, it was a hallmark, and still has great standing I’m sure, but it seems overshadowed now by the “one size fits all” attitude, wherein Win8 has to run on multi-formfactor platforms (it certainly is ambitious), and to do that, concessions are being made, much like hardware concessions are made when moving from a desktop to a mobile environment…it has to work well on the least capable device for which it is intended.
      So one thing I’ve noticed from afar of course is that it looks like all things Aero has to go dodo as one of the concessions, and if true, that alone lends credence to the “Steve Jobs effect” I keep hearing about.

      So yes, at ruirib stated better than me, stop being so dismissive, deep breath, relax, and let things play out. Creepers! You’re already starting to talk about Windows 9 for Honey-Boo-Boo’s sake!

      • #1818376 Reply

        WShandcuff36
        AskWoody Lounger

        Fun, hello.

        It is not really a Jobs or a Palmer ( Gates ) factor. They are trying to please the human animal and in his way of using a computer. Things are rolling along and electronics being developed at a great rate, it is now possible to have touch screen. Granted, Jobs has done this afore MS, this does not decrease the fun that I have in using W-8 for my very modest use of a machine. I think that I am flexible enough to use any OS thrown my way. People here show the same quality.

        Have a go, downtown, try it.

      • #1818377 Reply

        WSMedico
        AskWoody Lounger

        For real or not, I read so much condescension between the lines from guys like Medico and Drew1908. It’s like, “yeah, we met the challenge and conquered what Microsoft threw at us and now we wouldn’t want to be without it…yeah, all that stuff you naysayers comment on isn’t really missed, or can be compensated for easily with a little hocus pocus, and the rest of you are basically troglodytes for not seeing it our way.”

        Not in the least. Why don’t you read what I have written before making a statement like this. I have said nothing of the sort and I do take offense at you saying I did. In point of fact I said I would always recommend adding this stuff back in. These are a portion of my exact words:

        2012-10-19 10:42 [INDENT]I also very much like Win 8 and if asked I will recommend it to everyone who will listen, but, I will also tell people to expect to be shocked. I will also attempt to help lessen the shock factor by recommending a Start Orb replacement and setting it to allow automatic re-direction to the Desktop UI. At this point, the shock factor will be lessened enough to start showing ways to use Win 8 that they might find enjoyable.
        [/INDENT]

        Please read the words, don’t try to add words between the lines. I wasn’t!

    • #1818378 Reply

      Drew1903

      Nor have I. Matter of fact, I have said 8 works nicely w/out any ‘hocus pocus’ or adding anything & w/out a pile of mods.

      Try to help people see stuff doesn’t need to freak them out, be mystifying or increase understanding of how it can be kept simple, easy & less strange. Does not imply considering anyone dumb cus they might need or appreciate some guidance.

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818387 Reply

      Drew1903

      Bruce,

      Really all I have been trying to say, since then Start screen & its Tiles (being used as a start menu) is a bit freaky to people, is as an alternative, one can go to the Desktop & stay there, work from there, access everything & w/out flipping back n forth to the big graphical ‘picture’ display for things & use something that is more familiar to them & more in their comfort zone. After they understand the Win8 set-up a bit more or better, then, maybe consider its Start screen. Might make this less traumatic or strange for them, @ least @ the onset. I just read an article saying how shockingly different for people it is having that screen as a start menu… ergo, since, one can do everything in other ways, personally, I’m just trying tell folks about that so they might use methods that stress them out less.

      And not have the thing impede their discovery & appreciate of the OS as a whole before they even begin to get into it.

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818388 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      I concede I was using improper terminology to explain things. MS uses Start Charm rather than Start Button. They also use Start Screen rather than Start Menu. This minor terminology snafu does nothing to distract from everything I have said.

      As I have said several times now, I do advocate using a Start Orb add-on such as Classic Shell or Start8. Yes there IS a built in Start Charm, which I do not use. When I wish to go to the Start Screen, I use the Win Key. I never said I use the built in Start Charm.

      If anyone wishes to see the built in Win 8 Start Charm, just place your cursor (or finger I suppose on touch screens) into the lower left hand corner. The Start Charm will pop out unless you have installed an app such as Start8 with which you can disable this Start Charm.

      The Win 8 Start Screen is what is displayed when Win 8 is first turned on. This is the screen that shows all the different app tiles. This is the terminology MS is using for these things.

      If someone installs a Start Orb replacement app such as Classic Shell or Start8 they can have a Desktop style (or Win 7 style if you will) Start Menu. This does not replace the Win 8 Start Screen, it just supplements it with a Win 7 style Start Menu while on the Desktop.

    • #1818389 Reply

      Drew1903

      As an alternative method, one can go to Desktop, then WinQ will show applications, pick what you want from a more appealing display/listing that requires less manipulation or customizing (than the Start screen’s Tiles). It is, also, possible to have a window, again, @ the Desktop off all applications (Win*/Modern or otherwise) w/ personally selectable View & Sort… again, this, also, does not necessitate flipping screens, messing w/ Tiles or horizontal scrolling.

      This method is done w/out adding a start ‘orb’ or 3rd Party add-ins.

      Just some other, various choices & options for your consideration.

      Cheers,
      Drew

      • #1818391 Reply

        WShandcuff36
        AskWoody Lounger

        Drew, I like the W-Q and the Alt-F-4 for shut down. Any keyboard command is nice. Thanks. JP.

    • #1818393 Reply

      Drew1903

      No worries, JP. Interesting how some like Keyboard commands & some think them an outrageous suggestion.

      Speaking of ‘shutdown’… also > Charms > Settings & there’s a Power ‘button. Also can add a Power Options menu to the Rt Clk on desktop window/menu, which has more options

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818398 Reply

      WShandcuff36
      AskWoody Lounger

      Drew, a fine morning to you. That power button is the one that I was using before after a W+i, it required 7 clicks of sundry keys on the keyboard. The Alt-F4 is so much more simple, two moves and it is shut down. No moose click required, Alt-F4 and then Enter does it all. Again, thanks. JP.

    • #1818399 Reply

      WShandcuff36
      AskWoody Lounger

      Drew, how did you get this on your screen ?

    • #1818404 Reply

      Drew1903
    • #1818411 Reply

      WSF.U.N. downtown
      AskWoody Lounger

      Now this is all good info for perusal! No more of this “shocked” and philosophical mumbo jumbo…I had a feeling ruirib hit it bang on; and I’m sure he has the credentials for his thoughts to be taken to heart…unlike me! 😀

    • #1818412 Reply

      WSI.M.O.G.
      AskWoody Lounger

      FWIW, I haven’t gotten to test Windows 8 yet, but I am looking forward to it.

      However, I am currently testing Arch Linux on my laptop, and I have chosen to use the default experience of Gnome 3. Gnome 3 did away with the traditional start menu by default (though the old way can be enabled). The old way was essentially equivalent to the old Windows start menu. In Gnome 3 to launch apps you push a button (or put your mouse in the top left hotspot), then start typing the name of what you want to launch, and immediately it displays whatever matches what you’ve typed so far.

      From the discussions I’ve heard, it sounds like Win8 and Gnome 3 went with similar alternatives to the typical start menu paradigm.

      The discussion here on right and wrong is interesting. I think clarifying how things actually work is important to helping users get the most from Win8 and thats great.

      But mostly, I wanted to make a prediction… A lot of people won’t like the change, maybe even most. But 2 years after launch we’ll see most people speaking favorably about the new way, and those using the old approach will be viewed moreso as hangers-on.

    • #1818413 Reply

      Drew1903

      You may well be right… humans can be slow to adjust & adapt but eventually, inevitably…

      Some see Win8 as a departure from the past, some praise it, some bash it… some ‘get it’, some don’t (maybe will) but, agreed… makes more good, worthwhile sense to help people w/ it than spend time being all negative cus no matter how much one whines against Microsoft things are what they are so it’s better to come to terms w/ it & help folks w/ it than write volumes telling them how goofy it is… which it really isn’t… it’s just different but, that doesn’t make it bad.

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818414 Reply

      WSF.U.N. downtown
      AskWoody Lounger

      Don’t know who you’re listening to but; simple, stop listening to them. Maybe that’s easier said than done though. I say just speak your piece say how it is, what can be done and don’t even mention good or bad except to voice your own opinion, never in reaction to perception to other’s opinion; unless they’ve just gone off the rails, otherwise I’ll perceive both sides equally distant from the center and motivated by emotions rather than practicallity and truth.

      I’m downloading the the second of two eval versions right now. I say about 6 months in we’ll know which way the teepee is leaning; of course for sure in 2 years.

      I judge OS’s by how efficient they allow me in all things “computering” to be and by asthetics a distant second; and I like asthetics a lot (if you catch my drift)!
      Win7 has not quite won me over yet even after 3 years of steady use but horror of horrors, I was checking out the latest Battlefield game I think, and I saw that support ended at VISTA! No XP, oh my, that is the very beginning of the real end of the most efficient OS I’ve ever used. It would indeed be fair to say that I don’t like change if it doesn’t make me more efficient (exception being great monetary reward!); I’m spread too thin as it is already.

      • #1818419 Reply

        WSruirib
        AskWoody Lounger

        I judge OS’s by how efficient they allow me in all things “computering” to be and by asthetics a distant second

        I would say that is an excellent way to judge an OS. One of the reasons Microsoft uses to describe Windows Phone advantages over other competing phone operating systems, it is its efficiency and I totally agree – I have a Nokia Lumia running Windows Phone, so I experience that everyday. Yet, surprisingly, they have gone backwards regarding efficiency with Windows 8. It’s the same company, but the reasoning seems to be different.

        Yeah, I know about the hotkeys and all, but we are talking about GUIs. If a GUI needs users to remember a gazillion of hotkeys to be productive, something is seriously wrong and the designers are just choosing to be blind about it. Keyboard access to features is an important design consideration, for very experienced users, as it is much more efficient than using the GUI, but this is an OS for hundreds of millions of users. Of those users, only a few million will be expert users, and for those the hotkeys or key combinations will be ok, but for others, the lack of intuitiveness and decrease in efficiency resulting from the GUI will be a major factor that can prevent them from adopting the new OS.

    • #1818420 Reply

      Drew1903

      Keyboard commands are not new or peculiar to Windows8. They are (to some) a convenience not something that has to be used; because they are optional they do not NEED to be remembered nor are there, really, all that many. And IF people choose to use any of them we could give people credit for having enough brain capacity to after a short time indeed remember a few… some of us, back when we were still having fun between ourselves in the forums w/ Windows8, used to make jokes about having a sheet of paper on the desk in front of us w/ them, until we remembered them & threw it away; but, we wanted to learn & remember them. Now, seems many have a chip on their shoulder about learning things. To condemn Windows 8 for not being ‘intuitive’ is really saying it’s unfamiliar and once one becomes familiar w/ it, it is very efficient. Things are very much at one’s fingertips & things are accessed more directly, more quickly & w/ fewer clicks than in the past. When this is coupled w/ the speed of the OS, time is not wasted or elongated.

      Cheers,
      Drew

      Here, let me save you the time & trouble typing.

      Yeah, yeah, Drew. You said it before… it doesn’t count cus it’s just your opinion & just cus your capable of figuring it out & like it, that’s not true for anyone else so, please shut-up. And god forbid we’ll try (to see or use) anything you’re suggesting, even if you have been doing it yourself for 7 months; even though your doing it w/out adding 3rd Party things or any customizing & your 60 yrs old… less savvy people couldn’t & won’t manage it cus it’s strange & unfamiliar. But, you don’t understand that cus you don’t listen.

      Did I get it all? Did I cover it all fully & correctly for you? Cool, eh? Now you don’t have to tell me any of it, again. I got it 🙂

      • #1818431 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        … even if you have been doing it yourself for 7 months … w/out … any customizing …

        Blatantly untrue.

        Bruce

        Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

    • #1818421 Reply

      WSruirib
      AskWoody Lounger

      There haven’t been as many keyboard combinations and with the importance they have on the OS usability. Even Microsoft employees recognize this and have compiled lists of keyboard shortcuts to ease up the pain. If you want to deny that with the usual zeal, be my guest, but not even you can deny reality – scratch that, you obviously can and that’s what you actually try to do here, time and again.

    • #1818422 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      Drew, many of us enjoy Win 8! But many of us also have installed a Start Menu app so we see a familiar interface on our Desktop. Yes I know I can get to everything by using a Desktop Toolbar. I’ve done it. I do not particularly like it. In one Click and 2 hovers of my cursor I can open the CP in a menu format using Classic Shell. It takes the same number of Clicks and Hovers on the Desktop Toolbar to do this, but in a less familiar format. The millions of users that are not members of this forum, or any forum for that matter, will have no idea how to set up a Desktop Toolbar, NONE!

      How many of those same millions of people will know that Win + Q will bring up the All Apps screen – zero, that’s how many.

      Having a 3rd party Win 7 Style (or Win XP Style) Start Menu will make it easier for those people to enjoy Win 8.

      Once these millions of people can enjoy Win 8 then perhaps a few will venture out and start finding ways to change the UI to make the experience even more enjoyable, but the vast majority do not care about that. They just want to use their PC.

      In these statements I am talking about the average home user, but much of this could be transferred to the corporate user as well. Without some simple, formalized training, this is more difficult for these people. These are people that just want to get their work done. Having a familiar interface to start will let them learn the new interface at a more leisurely pace while still working with the familiar UI.

      And do not say there is already a training program, it’s called HELP. Many of us, and I suspect most of those users I have just been talking about have never used the Windows help feature, and probably don’t even know how to access it.

      Hint: For those reading here that do not know how to access help, search Help. You will find the Windows Help and Support screen.

    • #1818428 Reply

      Drew1903

      ‘ruirib’,

      How bout you quit trying to beat me up or beat me down while I’m trying to help people in a reasonable, decent manner while you & others constantly keep being unhelpful by telling them everything is a “pain” isn’t of suggesting that there are good reasons for things existing. Ever think list get compiled to be helpful instead to alleviate “pain”

      Terrific for people, as yet, unfamiliar w/ 8 or needing to buy a new computer that will have 8 to do nothing worthwhile for them but, instead tell them (in your opinion) that everything is a dumb, awkward, arduous, “pain”. Yep that’s just exactly what they need as they go @ learning their new machine.

      Back to good vs bad attitude, again. Thanks for proving the point.

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1818430 Reply

      WSruirib
      AskWoody Lounger

      Drew,

      This is my last reply to you, and I believe it to be as worthless as my previous ones, as you obviously won’t get it. It is a shame that you don’t realize that no user is helped when someone tells them their problems are really not problems. It is a shame you don’t realize that all these topics about attitude and denying what others perceive as real problems, are actual detrimental to your goals of furthering Windows 8. Don’t you realize, after getting feedback from some of the most prolific posters around here, that the problem is what you post, not what others post?

      Man, you remind me of that joke about the mother that proudly stated that her kid was the only one marching properly on the parade, while everybody else was wrong. What about thinking why everybody seems to be put off by your posts?!

      I’m done with this, if you want to be detrimental to how our users, who haven’t yet tried Windows 8, see the OS, be my guest! You’re doing a great job, man, congratulations!

    • #1818432 Reply

      Drew1903

      Thanks so much for the kind words, insults & calling me a liar. You could, certainly, ignore stuff rather than give me grief. But, if it makes you feel good…

      Cheers,
      Drew

      • #1818433 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        Thanks so much for the kind words, insults & calling me a liar. You could, certainly, ignore stuff rather than give me grief. But, if it makes you feel good…

        No insults whatsoever.

        Twelve posts back in this thread you showed everyone a registry tweak to achieve shut down with two clicks instead of four. Claiming that you haven’t customized is ridiculous.

        Bruce

        Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

    • #1818434 Reply

      Drew1903

      I, also, clearly said, that was not necessary to use & that one could > Charms > Settings > Power. Cause over time I have made people aware of various options & possibilities available to them (that I may have tried, so I know 1st hand what I’m talking about) you could , still, stop dishing out unnecessary mean, harassment & trying to destroy or twist what I say or detract from its, actual value & merit.

      And I am entitled to naturally find the stuff that’s been thrown @ my comments as insulting. There is a lot that has been said about me that is completely false & not very nice. As my Grandmother used to say, “If you can’t say anything nice, say nothing @ all”

      Ergo, if, you can’t treat me & my entries properly, ignore both.

      Cheers,
      Drew

      • #1818435 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        you could , still, stop dishing out unnecessary mean, harassment & trying to destroy or twist what I say or detract from its, actual value & merit.

        I never started.

        There is a lot that has been said about me that is completely false & not very nice.

        Like what?

        Ergo, if, you can’t treat me & my entries properly, ignore both.

        I have treated you properly, but if I feel a comment on your entries is necessary to set the record straight then I will not ignore them.

        Bruce

        Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

        • #1818437 Reply

          WShandcuff36
          AskWoody Lounger

          BR, hello.

          >>> Twelve posts back in this thread you showed everyone a registry tweak to achieve shut down with two clicks instead of four. Claiming that you haven’t customized is ridiculous.<<<

          Drew did non originate this, it is also in W-7. I am away from W-8 now, on a W-7 laptop and out of habit from W-8, I tried this and lo&behold, it is there too. Same dialogue as in W-8, I will try and show it.

          Am I out in left field ?

          • #1818438 Reply

            b
            AskWoody Plus

            BR, hello.

            >>> Twelve posts back in this thread you showed everyone a registry tweak to achieve shut down with two clicks instead of four. Claiming that you haven’t customized is ridiculous.<<<

            Drew did non originate this, it is also in W-7. I am away from W-8 now, on a W-7 laptop and out of habit from W-8, I tried this and lo&behold, it is there too. Same dialogue as in W-8, I will try and show it.

            Am I out in left field ?

            Depends what your definition of "it" is. Is that a registry tweak? Is it the result of two clicks?

            I was referring to your "Drew, how did you get this on your screen ?" (Which is not in Windows 7 or Windows 8 without any customizing.)

            Bruce

            Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

            • #1818446 Reply

              WShandcuff36
              AskWoody Lounger

              Good morning, BR.
              >>> Depends what your definition of “it” is. Is that a registry tweak? Is it the result of two clicks?

              I was referring to your “Drew, how did you get this on your screen ?” (Which is not in Windows 7 or Windows 8 without any customizing.)<<<

              I was refering to the "Shutdown" dialogue and it was in most versions, one only had to find it and Drew pointed it out to me and all. It is two clicks away, the other subject is indeed a bit of customizing required. Have a nice day.

              JP.

            • #1818447 Reply

              b
              AskWoody Plus

              I was refering to the “Shutdown” dialogue and it was in most versions, one only had to find it and Drew pointed it out to me and all. It is two clicks away, the other subject is indeed a bit of customizing required.

              It’s not relevant to the screen shot I was discussing, but isn’t that three keys and no clicks?

              Bruce

              Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

    • #1818441 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      I believe that much of what we do, and much of what we use (at least in my case) are customizations. But you know what, customizing Windows is what makes it more enjoyable. I can set things up to work for me. My wife can change things or make them work differently on her PC, and so forth. This is what, in my mind, sets this OS apart from iOS. I can choose how to make things look, feel and work whereas that OS is not nearly as customizable.

      Just adding a Toolbar to the Taskbar is a customization IMO. We all seem to customize Windows at some level. But then again, I did the same thing in XP, Vista and Win 7 so I do not think I am doing anything different in Win 8. These are personal computers. If I own the PC I will set it up the way I want, and this is the strength of Windows.

    • #1818442 Reply

      Drew1903

      JP,

      No you are not out in left field, @ all.

      And things I have been mentioning, explaining & offering Folks are not Reg tweaks or hacks. 99.9% are things native to the OS.

      ————————————————————————————————————————————————

      Absolutely, Ted!! They are just giving me a hard time cus of picking @ things I said & trying catch me up over some comments or wording… Mainly I think it came from my trying to explain to Folks that 3rd Party add-ins & retro-fits were not necessary, like Start8 & Classic Shell… so after that if I told about a way of doing something or mention any modification, even, w/in the OS itself I was a hypocrite. Or a few months ago maybe I tried something or mentioned something or if I tell about something I must be using it & lying that I’m not… maybe it’s a compliment that I’m being watched & read so carefully. Keeps me on my toes, anyway, watching what I say or do, that somebody will jump on me for it, @ the time or 6 months later. It’s ok, I have broad shoulders 😉

      But, yes, personalizing Windows OSs is nothing new (to 8) nor something peculiar to just you, me or those people standing over there. Nor is it a bad thing or the same as adding (I feel unneeded) 3rd Party dress it up as 7 stuff.

      Cheers,
      Drew

      • #1818448 Reply

        b
        AskWoody Plus

        And things I have been mentioning, explaining & offering Folks are not Reg tweaks or hacks.

        Your power menu screen shot at #50 and script download to achieve it at #53 is a registry tweak.

        Mainly I think it came from my trying to explain to Folks that 3rd Party add-ins & retro-fits were not necessary, like Start8 & Classic Shell… so after that if I told about a way of doing something or mention any modification, even, w/in the OS itself I was a hypocrite.

        Then at #59 you say that in Windows 8 “things are accessed more directly, more quickly & w/ fewer clicks than in the past.” and that you’ve been using it for seven months without any customizing.

        Bruce

        Windows 10 Pro Version 1909 (Group ASAP)

    • #1818443 Reply

      WSF.U.N. downtown
      AskWoody Lounger

      I think you need a month off from posting or something like that. I have no idea of course but from what I read, you just sound burned out. Like you’ve said things a thousand times and now you’re just complaining you’ve explained this or that many times already; without explaining them again for those who have no idea what you’re talking about…and search in forums is hit or miss at best it seems.

    • #1818444 Reply

      Drew1903

      I think you need to get off my back/case. Just stick to picking on Microsoft.

    • #1818445 Reply

      WSF.U.N. downtown
      AskWoody Lounger

      Fair enough, a therapist can only make suggestions right? I think you make good suggestions but its buried in so much defensiveness, I feel like I’m panning for gold; but I think the stream just dried up! I don’t need to say anything anyway, plenty of others are already, and if that doesn’t give you at least a hint, well nothing will.

      By the way, its not picking, its critical analysis of facts available, and then best estimation, with allowance for anyone who constructs a better hypothesis as either contribution or replacement; where the cards fall, the cards fall. If I say Woodward and Bernstein vs. CNN news and you understand the driving forces the were and are behind both, then you know as well as I, what a tremendous distinction that is from “picking on.”

    • #1818451 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody_MVP

      The way everyone here talks, it’s as if we have no choice about it, we have to switch to Windows 8 and give up our start button, because Microsoft has spoken.

      It sounds like the pied piper has blown his horn and implanted this thought into everyone’s mind.

      There’s no need to switch to Windows 8. I for one am perfectly happy with Windows 7 on some of my computers, and XP on others.

      I’ll move to Windows 8 if and when I choose to, not when Microsoft tells me to.

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
      • #1818452 Reply

        WSJohn259
        AskWoody Lounger

        I’ll move to Windows 8 if and when I choose to, not when Microsoft tells me to.

        A very wise policy IMHO. Even then there is the option to use a utility such as Classic Shell to revert the UI to that of Win7, plus (probably) third-party utilities to block the adverts in Metro/Modern UI apps.

        However, there are some cut-off dates, for example the date beyond which new PC’s can no longer legally have Win7 pre-installed, and the date beyond which Microsoft will no longer issue security updates for Win7. Of course, by then things may have changed so drastically as to make the point irrelevant. If some of the numerous highly negative Win8 reviews in the technical magazines are to be believed Microsoft might no longer exist then.

      • #1982667 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody_MVP

        The way everyone here talks, it’s as if we have no choice about it, we have to switch to Windows 8 and give up our start button, because Microsoft has spoken.

        It sounds like the pied piper has blown his horn and implanted this thought into everyone’s mind.

        There’s no need to switch to Windows 8. I for one am perfectly happy with Windows 7 on some of my computers, and XP on others.

        I’ll move to Windows 8 if and when I choose to, not when Microsoft tells me to.

        I found this old post of mine from a long long time ago, from my Windows Secrets days. I found it interesting to see my resistance to Windows 8 back then, whereas now my Windows version of choice is Windows 8.1.

        I and a lot of others, actually.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #1982696 Reply

          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          MrJimPhelps, quoting himself: “The way everyone here talks, it’s as if we have no choice about it, we have to switch to Windows 8 and give up our start button, because Microsoft has spoken.”

          Windows 8 was a most awful thing that, what were then called “fan boys”, but were more like garden-variety trolls,  would butt into bulletin-board discussions about how unbelievable was to have something as disappointing as  8 coming out right after 7, and the trolls would interrupted the conversation with loud, sneering, dismissive comments about those old fogies that could not get on with the advances in technology brought together in the break-through modern miracle that was Windows 8.

          Now there is also a sort of fan-boy blogging, praising Windows 10 to High Heaven, and this is annoying, but nowhere as annoying as those Windows 8 trolls used to be. Besides, as far as I can make head or tails of the current debate about staying with 7 or moving to 10.something.or.other, Windows 10 is incomparably better than Windows 8. Because just about anything with more than five lies of code ought to be better. And because, when everything is said and done, Windows 10 is probably not even half bad. The patches and the forced cadence of upgrades, I believe are the real problem, not the basic  OS software.

          For my part, well… I am biding bye-bye to all that while moving resolutely to  macOS and to LINUX. Keeping Windows 7 too, for some special jobs for which it is better to use it.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

        • #1982705 Reply

          Ascaris
          AskWoody_MVP

          I was like that too.  It took Windows 10 to make Windows 8.x look good!  Now the objections I had to 8.x seem so trivial…

          Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.4).

          • #1983594 Reply

            MrJimPhelps
            AskWoody_MVP

            …and it took the end of Windows 7 to make us realize that Windows 8.1 is literally the end of the road if you prefer the old Microsoft over the new.

            Group "L" (Linux Mint)
            with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
            • #1983606 Reply

              krism
              AskWoody Plus

              Yeah, i suppose…  Just thinking about that and assuming MS hasn’t come out with win11 by then, I guess a good option for me would be to go back to Ubuntu and do everything there except win games, and do the games on the old 8.1 with the internet shut off. Not as convenient as now, but would avoid the (what I consider to be the) awful choice of going to win10 and having to redo/recheck everything every 6 months.

              or put a turbine cooler on my cpu…………

            • #1983677 Reply

              Ascaris
              AskWoody_MVP

              MS has said that Windows 10 is the last version of Windows ever, and that all future Windows changes will be rolled into the existing Windows 10 product rather than periodically introducing new versions.  While MS can (and has at times) changed its mind about things like that, I see no reason for the time being to not take them at their word.

              I migrated from 7 to 8.1 a few years ago because 8.1 had more time remaining on the clock, but I knew that even then, Windows versions I was willing to use existed on numbered days.  Thus, the beginning of the gradual migration to Linux was already underway at that time.

              If your games run on WINE under Linux well enough, and the excess heat is the only issue, it might be solveable.  I have no idea, of course, what you tried to fix it already, but it seems that if the game runs decently before it overheats, you’re already mostly there. If you’re interested in the topic, please create a message on the Linux forum about it.  I am by no means an expert in Linux or Linux gaming, but I’m learning as I go.  I play a bunch of Windows titles in Linux on my desktop and my Dell G3 gaming laptop.

              Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.17.4).

            • #1983682 Reply

              krism
              AskWoody Plus

              Yes, this is not the place to discuss Linux or laptop cooling, though I just, again, redid the cpu grease -A Silver 5 of course. No dust in there. Now looking for an external fan-thing to add on to the extant exhaust to make it pull more since placing a 8″ Honeywell fan at full blast under it did nothing. Only one game – NWN2. I, too, think there “should” be a way…. But, again, not to discuss here. 🙂

              – ThinkPad T530-2394-3J8, i5-3380M 2.9GHz, Win8.1 Pro x64 (with OpenShell), 8GB(15GB/s), Sammy 250GB SSD. –

              • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  krism.
    • #1818453 Reply

      WSMedico
      AskWoody Lounger

      That has been my contention all along. No one is being forced to do anything. Yes, at some point in time extended support will be lost, but that is just the way all S/W is. When XP’s support is gone it will be close to 15 years since it’s release. That’s quite a long support cycle. Win 7 has to about 2020 before it looses it’s support. There is no reason to change if you do not feel comfortable to doing so.

    • #1818454 Reply

      Drew1903

      Microsoft is not, does not tell anyone they “have to” get or switch to any new OS just simply because it has hit the market or @ any particular time. Nor is there any obligation to use the Win8 Start screen, Tiles or Store APPs.

      The only ‘time’ impetus might be the $40 bargain which terminates @ the end of January 2013.

      As for all the negativity you can (maybe, unfortunately) read much of it is quite misleading. Remember, negative press always gets a disproportionate amount of attention or notice & may not result in a fair or accurate (pre) view of things… be it Win8 or in general. Many do not feel all the negative hype is fitting, @ all.

      There may, indeed, be a lot of virtues to Win8 that are being missed, ignored or forgotten due to the amount of focus(ing) on its so-called Start screen & such.

      Cheers,
      Drew

      • #1818461 Reply

        WShandcuff36
        AskWoody Lounger

        Drew, good evening. Just finished a score of fine oysters.
        You wrote : Microsoft is not, does not tell anyone they “have to” get or switch to any new OS.

        I run Office 2K on all my machines. Am I a renegate for this ? Some dealers at Best Buy also told me this, I had to get Office 2003 or now 2010. Not so !
        The same goes for W-8, I will run it, even the Pro version as it runs quite nicely for me, but it is my machine and my choice. Hey ! This is a free world.
        I run W-8 like I do W-7, no tiles, no start orb which I seldom used on W-7 to start with. Can you still see me out there in left field ? :^_^: .JP.

        • #1818463 Reply

          Drew1903

          I should clarify something & maybe concede something I’d really forgotten. When I mentioned reg tweaks, I meant in the sense of actually going to regedit & physically, manually changing entries, values, etc. And I forgot the thing Ted told us about to stop Charms from popping out was 1 of those. I have a need to hit Charms so rarely, maybe that why it slipped my mind. What’s that recent saying… ‘my bad’, lol.

          And those kids @ Future Shop & Best Buy will tell people that cus they are on commission. I had a client once ask me to join them @ a big box store to help them select a computer. I ended up building then one but, the point is… the kid was telling them, they HAD TO buy a bunch of security software, 1 for virus protection AND for 1 for malware. It was basically the same stuff available for free & I made sure they had it all upon delivery and they did not have to buy it. But, he TOLD them they did.

          MS might LIKE folks to buy Win8 or Office 2013, for example but, ultimately, the people will decide.

          Cheers,
          Drew

    • #1818462 Reply

      Drew1903

      Well, JP, sounds like that makes, @ least, 2 of us. I, too, was hardly using start in 7 & I think, even, before the same… had stuff sitting visibly & close in QL, I recall.

      As for the other concept, allow this analogy… AS one motors about there are various (makes of) vehicles of various years & ages. Nobody was forced by the car maker to get (1st timers) or replace a car, just cus new models hit the showrooms. And owners choosing how long they kept/keep what they are currently driving. It’s the same, in principle, be it an OS or other software. And sooner or later on a whim or cus something wore out or broke or just cus of lots of individual reason , @ various points in time, inevitably, eventually most, not all, people end up w/ a new car. But, nobody tells them or makes them nor @ any particular time. People do what they want, when they want… there is no company saying you must buy this & NOW.

      Free enterprise : free country : free choice

      Maybe many people will, also, realise, in due course, that they DO HAVE the liberty to run 8 quite nicely and, like you & myself, w/out start screen, start icon or menu. Doubtful we are or will be alone.

      Cheers,
      Drew

    • #1983081 Reply

      krism
      AskWoody Plus

      My personal feeling is that MS tried hard to convince/encourage/very-close-to-force folks to go to win10. Maybe they have backed off from that a tad. Don’t know… – when I tried win10 for 8 or so months a ways back(went through 2 release changes), it felt I was being moved NOT to a system where the release didn’t change, but TO a situation where every 6 months I had to change to a new release – they may still be calling it win10 but in my mind it is about win14 at this point. The upheaval is the same to me. – I would have thus spent the rest of my life happily on Ubuntu, but discovered that some games under wine were overheating my laptop’s cpu so went to win7 and was in nirvana when I realized that win8.1 with openshell would do me perfectly for 3 years (at least!). As to the Start icon and all that, though I don’t use it much, I am used to it being there (used 7 for a long time) so there is no learning curve – darn thing just works. And THAT, dear readers, is all I need! 🙂

      – ThinkPad T530-2394-3J8, i5-3380M 2.9GHz, Win8.1 Pro x64 (with OpenShell), 8GB(15GB/s), Sammy 250GB SSD. – (BitDefender)(WPD)(manual update of previous, just before next patch Tuesday)

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  krism.
      • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  krism.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1983599 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody_MVP

      Reading through this post was for me a walk down memory lane. Seeing all of the names of the people who posted, and reading again through the give and take, both for and against Windows 8.

      Just a mention of something that wasn’t long on the scene, but for me was an excellent product: Windows 8.0. I had installed Windows 8.0 32-bit on my old Vista-era eMachines computer with 2GB of RAM, and it ran really well. I upgraded to Windows 8.1, and it was a bumpy ride from that point forward, so I went back to 8.0. I wish Microsoft had not dropped support for 8.0 so soon, because 8.0, with StartIsBack, ran very well on my old lame eMachines computer.

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #1983700 Reply

      markusoft
      AskWoody Plus

      you will run into .net issues with windows 8
      you must run 8.1 esp. if you are on quickbooks

       

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