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  • Keizer: Win7 is sticking around more than XP did in its final years

    Home Forums AskWoody blog Keizer: Win7 is sticking around more than XP did in its final years

    This topic contains 63 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  Canadian Tech 1 week, 5 days ago.

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    • #132422 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      Interesting analysis from Gregg Keizer at Computerworld: Windows 7’s refusal to recognize an upcoming retirement – Microsoft will halt all support in
      [See the full post at: Keizer: Win7 is sticking around more than XP did in its final years]

      7 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132424 Reply

      jescott418
      AskWoody Lounger

      Yes, its going to have legs especially in the enterprise world. I know my wife still uses it in education and they have no plans yet for Windows 10. My Windows 7 desktop was dying a slow death so I decided to be done with Windows 7. Let’s face it, released in 2009 is a long time in the tech world. I just couldn’t accept running it until Jan. 2020.

    • #132425 Reply

      samak
      AskWoody Lounger

      “You have to wonder if Microsoft will extend Win7’s support beyond January 2020 – not because you and I care about it, but because large companies will demand it.”

      I’ve been hoping that this will be the case. Not that I will rely on it, but every time they screw up Windows 10 updates / patches etc I cheer!

      W7 SP1 Home Premium 64-bit, Office 2010, Group B, non-techie

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132426 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody MVP

      The reason companies are staying with Windows 7 is because it is a superior product for the corporate world (and it is still being supported), while the successors to Windows 7 (Windows 8.x and Windows 10) are not. If Microsoft would make a few changes to Windows 10, it would become a superior corporate product, and companies would begin to move to it in big numbers.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132429 Reply

      anonymous

      “You have to wonder if Microsoft will extend Win7’s support beyond January 2020 – not because you and I care about it, but because large companies will demand it.”

      As with XP, I predict that Microsoft will happily provide costly extended Win7 support to those who can afford it.  As for the rest of us…

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132431 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      There are parallels, but there are also differences.

      When XP was on it’s way out, it was really aging. XP64 was a hodgepodge cobbled together of XP32 and some 64-bit support, and it was a fairly terrible OS.

      7, OTOH, has strong 64-bit support and architecture that works.

      XP hardware was not as up to snuff to run “the new kid”, Vista, which is why Vista ultimately failed – the hardware could not run it effectively, but that didn’t stop them from trying. It showed as slow, laggy machines with weak graphics support barely capable of rendering Aero Glass.

      7 hardware is head and shoulders above what it needs to be, and 7 runs on practically anything, from Pentium Dual Core CPU’s to the most bold and brash of the i7’s and Xeons. The only hardware that will not run on 7 is the newest of the new, and that’s because Microsoft put up roadblocks – not because 7 is incapable of running on that hardware (AMD Ryzen, Intel Kaby Lake).

      XP did what people needed it to do, just like 7 does now. It stays out of the way like a good GUI OS should. It leaves the user alone, it doesn’t bludgeon them over the head with choices, ads, and questionable telemetry. People were in control of XP, and they are in control of 7; the same can’t be said about Windows 10.

      IMHO, 10 has a bigger uphill battle even more than Vista or 8 had before it. At least back in the Vista days, MS still had a semblance of public good will and good opinion. Right now, I’d say you’d be hard pressed to find a “majority” who have a favorable or semi-favorable view of MS at this point in time.

      The other major issue MS has now that they didn’t have 10+ years ago is that Windows is not the only “good” OS anymore, and software support and office needs have changed a lot from where they used to be. I don’t think MS gets this though – or maybe they’re just afraid to admit it. Before now, they could pull the “our way or the highway” routine and get away with it probably 10 times out of 10. They can’t do that anymore though. I’m not saying this is the long awaited “year of the Linux desktop”,  but it’s a sure sight closer now than it ever has been. MS needs to realize that they’re not the only game in town anymore, even in the business world.

      10 is a very good OS, and you’d think after 8 and 8.1 it was a softball throw to a major league HR hitter. Unfortunately, MS decided to riddle it with questionable decisions and a lack of respect for the end user, and that is now biting them in the behind. I think of 10 as a streamlined, tweaked and turbocharged 7…. but then buried in stuff that doesn’t belong and shouldn’t be forced or have to be opted-out of.

      8 users thanked author for this post.
      • #132454 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody Lounger

        MHO, 10 has a bigger uphill battle even more than Vista or 8 had before it. At least back in the Vista days, MS still had a semblance of public good will and good opinion.

        Vista was released before it was really ready, with performance issues that existed even on high-end hardware, and Intel’s pressure for Microsoft to certify hardware (915 chipsets and integrated graphics) that wasn’t capable of running Aero as “Vista capable” didn’t help matters.

        While Vista’s rollout was rocky, it was solid conceptually, and its problems were eventually fixed.  Vista was further developed into the legendary Windows 7, so there should be little doubt that what MS was trying to accomplish with Vista was right-headed even if poorly executed initially.

        Win 10, on the other hand, is not solid in concept or execution.  Its problem is not that it doesn’t live up to its design parameters as was the case with Vista… its problem is that it does.   Most of the things people loathe about 10 are things it was specifically engineered to do, on purpose.  That’s the big difference compared with Vista.

        10 users thanked author for this post.
      • #132562 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Lounger

        I agree with everything you said, except that Windows 10 is a very good OS. The two Win 10 computers at the office have been nothing but headaches for us which have cost us several thousand dollars in lost productivity. I had banned Windows 10 from the office, but I was overruled by the office owner and his new tech guy. In comparison, all of the 14 or so Win 7 computers have been rock stable. In my opinion, Win 10 is not ready for the corporate world. When will Win 10 be ready for the corporate world? Your guess is as good as mine.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132432 Reply

      Canadian Tech
      AskWoody MVP

      Simply put, Win10 is NOT an acceptable replacement for Win7, as Win8 was not.  Its pretty clear from the way the market is behaving (as shown in the stats).

      I know of very few people who have purchased a new Win10 computer other than ones that have a Win10 label but have Win7 installed.  In fact, from my perspective I see a drastically reduced buy rate on any PCs.

      WinXP was a different story.  Win7 was widely seen as a good improvement, but people and businesses resisted the change because WinXP was good enough.  Win7 is sticking to it because there is no legitimate replacement.

      CT

      • #132539 Reply

        lurks about
        AskWoody Lounger

        From what the restless natives are saying, W10 is more widely detested than most realizes and MS has almost no goodwill left. People are openly discussing what their options are to avoid W10 when W7 is no longer.

    • #132433 Reply

      anonymous

      There is no reason for individual PC’s with Windows 7 SP1 x64 to die. If treated right it will last. I am running Windows 7 SP1 x64 home premium desktop that was fired up in March 2010 after HP put it together in November 2009. It has been running perfectly, with just minor problems, since purchased from Best Buy. I am in Group B and follow Woody’s, along with the the other masters,  orders. As of this morning, all parts are running smoothly.

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132434 Reply

      anonymous

      The only problems I have had were caused by me, as operator.! I think that most problems that individuals have with Windows 7 are simply caused by the operator!

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132437 Reply

      cogx
      AskWoody Lounger

      The technical problem with moving past XP was Vista added UAC and tried to get programmers to suddenly, completely change the way their software worked – which meant no longer assuming the logged on user had full access to the system.  The vast majority of Windows software developers are always way (way, way) behind what the Microsoft Windows team and Visual Studio team says you should be doing (today) as far as developing Windows applications.  It didn’t help that Vista was, at best, a beta quality OS.  Even Windows 7, before SP1, was at best, RC quality.  So, XP hung (well, still hangs around in PoS) around longer than it would have had Microsoft had better planning *years* before Vista ever disgraced the computing world.

      As for moving past Windows 7, it’s just a matter of doing the work, but there is no inherent technological barrier in the way like there was with moving past XP.  Windows 10 continues to, slowly – very slowly – improve with each new released version, so it is just a matter of timing one’s jump onto the Windows 10 merry-go-round.  The sad thing is, Windows 8.1 (Server 2012R2) is still the most stable Windows version Microsoft has ever released, but because of the lack of a Desktop Start menu, it kept a whole lot of IT shops from moving to it (those who are too conservative to have trusted Classic Shell and so have stuck by the actually quite inferior Windows 7).

       

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #132443 Reply

        anonymous

        I didn’t think Vista was all that bad.  Yes, there were some growing pains attributable to the security improvements over XP but that passed.  It served me faithfully on x86 ans x64 systems for almost a decade until it reached EOL earlier this year.

        However, Microsoft made Windows 10 such an unattractive option that I happily and successfully moved to Linux.

        And now that I’m penguin powered I am no longer threatened by Microsoft’s defective QA on patches served up by the malware vector called Windows Update.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132441 Reply

      BrianL
      AskWoody Lounger

      Third post : Windows 10 has had so many problems writers and programmers are fragmented into different locations and cannot get together working on the same items. Then the items are released without testing to the public. Thus the problems begin, then you have one stacked on another. No wonder 10 is so unstable. I use all parts of my 2009 windows 7 sp1 x64 home premium desktop with no problems as long as I follow askwoody.com and keep my cool.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132438 Reply

      anonymous

      The Enterprise lemmings have no choice but to jump when they reach the edge of the cliff. Making demands at that point will only be met with a very large extended support bill that will double every year after that. Microsoft will not back down.

      The IT planning department in large Enterprises will have produced an IT Strategic Plan (it usually spans a two year period). Microsoft knows that, so they make calls at the top to make sure that the Microsoft vision is adopted. It then becomes a top down decision. If the planning department chooses to stay with W7 beyond 2020, the CFO and CEO will have been prepped by MS to push back. CFOs do not make technical decisions, they make business decisions. When there is a disagreement like this, IT then have to pivot to business risks to make their position heard. If the CFO/CEO are swayed by their own IT and start to waver, Microsoft VPs and their minions will start calling on the Board Members. The 2019 year will be the year of reckoning, not 2017.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #132491 Reply

        AlexEiffel
        AskWoody Lounger

        Some might even be able to build a business case stating there is less risk/cost to continue using Windows 7 for 2 years with some mitigation tools to address security issues after 2020 and let other enterprises swear to MS when they experience the painful transition to the new model. I can’t see how this will go as smoothly as the XP->7 transition has been, which was already not even a given for many.

    • #132458 Reply

      Seff
      AskWoody Lounger

      I am one of those hoping that the Windows 7 support will be extended, which it may be not only for the reason already given that big companies will demand it, but also because governments will not be happy to allow Microsoft to throw a large proportion of computer users to the wolves so far as things like ransomware are concerned – as we saw with the recent security update for XP outside of its end-of-life support.

      I also believe that at some point market forces will have an impact and a sense of reality will finally hit Microsoft as they have to acknowledge to themselves that the “Windows 10 Project” isn’t turning out as they’d intended.

      All those interested in the latest shiny new toy or a “free bargain” have already had their Windows 10 upgrades, while those of us left with Windows 7 aren’t going anywhere until we see a good reason to do so, which there isn’t at the moment and it would seem unlikely there will be within the foreseeable future. Windows 10 had the potential to be great, but as has been said in earlier comments here it was saddled with so much unwanted and unacceptable baggage that it is, for most users, mediocre at best and downright unacceptable at worst.

      In my own case I am primarily a gamer, so for me the only reason to upgrade to Windows 10 would be if the developers of the massively multiplayer role-playing games I play were working flat out on Direct X 12 only versions of their new games (given that DX12 is only available through Windows 10), and there’s no evidence of that being the case. Most developers will be looking nervously at the monthly usage figures and wondering if they really support working with DX12 yet. We might even find pressure grows on Microsoft to release DX12 for Windows 7!

      The only remaining question to my mind is – as we get ever nearer to January 2020, who will blink first, Microsoft or the Windows 7 users? If I were a shareholder in Microsoft I’d be a bit concerned about the likely answer to that one! The situation with XP shows that a lot of users may well be willing to carry on with Windows 7 well beyond January 2020 and a good many of them may actually welcome an end to playing Russian roulette every month with Windows Updates!

      Interesting times indeed.

      7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #132461 Reply

        Canadian Tech

        Seff, do you recall the CEO goal of 1 billion Win10 installs within 2 years. I’d say they missed by a fair bit.

        This Win10 situation is not very different from the Win8 one was. Remember when MS admitted that Win8 was a failure. So much a failure that they were going to create something completely different. So completely different that they were passing on Win9 and going to Win10.

        Win10 will fail the same way. I just hope the solution is not Win 8.3. We’ve already seen Win8.2

        4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #132469 Reply

          Seff
          AskWoody Lounger

          I do indeed recall that, and as you say it’s all very reminiscent of the Windows 8 debacle. Perhaps we’re in line for Windows 10.1 :)?

          The only sensible solution in my view would be an end to the “one size fits all” approach to Operating Systems. Keep Windows 10 and continue to update it for tablets, smart phones and other hand-held devices, while extending and maintaining Windows 7 for desktops and laptops.

          It may actually be too late for Microsoft to dominate the former market, although they still hold a virtual monopoly of the latter market with no realistic prospect of Linux ever appealing to most PC users. Microsoft still have the ability to hold onto that market but they seem pretty desperate to kick even that into touch.

          That seems to me to be the only credible way forward, coupled with a review of the business model which  needs to revert to the traditional approach of selling boxes and downloads rather than forcing users to give away their privacy in the pursuit of advertising revenue.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #132473 Reply

            Canadian Tech
            AskWoody MVP

            That was not “anonymous”. It was me, CT.

            The answer is actually not that complicated. Windows 7 SP2, done the right way, would put things back on the right track, along with your suggested 2nd stream, Windows 10.

            They could do a lot to enhance Win7 SP2 by paying attention to what the market is telling them now.

            It is far to optimistic to expect this. MS is blind to the market now. Worse still, they no longer have the internal competence to move any product forward. They are on a downward slide and it is foolish optimism to expect that they can reverse this slide.

            This company will go into the history books just like IBM, DEC, HP, WANG etc. It is no longer a question of whether this is going to happen. The question is how soon.

            The pattern is all too familiar. Dreamers create. They bring on high competence talent to progress the dream. At some point the bean counters step in and demand higher stock prices (which comes from this quarters “earnings”). The bean counters vision has a range of about 3 to 6 months and at most 12. Then the inevitable layoffs to reduce cost. This is the point when the failure really gets teeth. It is when those very talented members (who are the most flexible and salable) move on. The layoffs end up losing the bulk of the most competent instead of the least competent. As this movement consolidates, the talent pool becomes less and less able and after a time you have nothing but incompetence left. That is when you put out defective patches that were to patch the defective patches and so on.

            CT

            • #132474 Reply

              PKCano
              AskWoody MVP

              Now it says Canadian Tech.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #132630 Reply

              Canadian Tech
              AskWoody MVP

              PK, I do not know what causes it but from time to time, my logged in status changes and I do not notice it before it is too late. I have it marked keep me logged in.

              Another issue, When you open a topic that Woody has started, I do not see the discussion until I click on comment on….. Some people may not want to comment, just read

              CT

            • #132631 Reply

              PKCano
              AskWoody MVP

              If you click on the Home button in the top bar of the page, you get the Blog posts to just read. Like AskWoody.com

              If you click on the link on the right of this page or on the “Comments on the AskWoody Lounge,” you enter the Lounge/forums. That is the comment area and you see only the preview of the Blog post.

              • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  PKCano.
            • #132633 Reply

              Canadian Tech
              AskWoody MVP

              In this case, the person has gone to https://www.askwoody.com. There he sees a number of topics. If he just clicks on the topic heading, it goes to a separate page. All that is on that page is the topic heading. He cannot see any of the discussion until he clicks on “comment on the ask woody lounge”

              CT

            • #132475 Reply

              anonymous

              Don’t blame it on the “bean counters’.  I guarantee you that Windows 10 was not the brainchild of an accountant!

              OTOH, maybe the accountants deserve credit for Win7!

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #132564 Reply

              Cybertooth
              AskWoody Lounger

              Don’t blame it on the “bean counters’. I guarantee you that Windows 10 was not the brainchild of an accountant! OTOH, maybe the accountants deserve credit for Win7!

              I have to agree. Accountants would not have pushed Microsoft into ruining their most successful OS ever. IMO it was the hypesters and the slaves to fashion smitten with Apple envy who did this to Windows.

               

            • #132493 Reply

              TweakHound
              AskWoody Lounger

              CT, that was a profound post.

              2 users thanked author for this post.
            • #132540 Reply

              lurks about
              AskWoody Lounger

              CT, the adage ‘history repeats itself’ is evident in the examples you cited as companies that MS seems to emulating for essentially the seem bungling stupidity.

            • #132639 Reply

              anonymous

               

              Excellent!

              “…stars, are entitled to eclipse.

              All is well, provided the light returns

              and the eclipse does not become endless night.

              Dawn and resurrection are synonymous.

              The reappearance of the light is the same as

              the survival of the soul.”    ~ Victor Hugo

      • #132492 Reply

        AlexEiffel
        AskWoody Lounger

        It will be hard to continue to say the desktop is dead to explain the failure of 10, if there is still more Win7 running after 2020 and more Macs than before.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132478 Reply

      anonymous

      If you think Consumers have any sway with Microsoft, dream on. I am not just referring to Win Home users, I include Pro users in that group. Neither are recognized as valued customers by Microsoft.

      The only customers that Microsoft want to cuddle are Enterprise Clients.

      The Education sector (USA) has already made it clear that Microsoft is not there for them. W10 S is a Johnny came lately attempt to lure the IT Admins away from Chromebooks – it is not working.

      Consumers can hurt MS, considering they represent around 400 to 500 million users, but it will only be a dint in their overall market share world wide. Remember that MS gave China the W10 that they wanted (to get billions of users on W10), but they gave the middle finger to the rest of the world.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132482 Reply

      Daubie
      AskWoody Lounger

      My Alienware Aurora R-3 came with Windows 7 Pro (64-bit) I use mostly for a flight sim out of Russia and modding the game/sim.  I will keep Win 7 as long as I can, then probably get a new gaming PC with whatever latest Windows version is out there at that time.  I have upgraded and rebuilt this machine a few times over the years, it still does the job for me.  The only thing holding my PC back is my motherboard is only good for 16GB RAM and that already limits me now.

       

    • #132490 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      It is pretty dang funny that even after a year of giving it away, Win10 has not pushed Win7 down as low as XP was at this point in its life. Not only funny, but pathetic.

      I know (from an enterprise standpoint), our POS system runs on 7 Embedded, and due to the way the applications are built by our POS vendor, I highly doubt they’d be compatible with 10. I’d sooner expect that the next image we get is on 8.1 Embedded instead of 10 IoT Enterprise. I’d also assume 10 IoT Enterprise has a much higher license fee than 8.1 Embedded does at this point, which is another reason why we’ll probably never use it.

    • #132501 Reply

      Charlie
      AskWoody Lounger

      I think that there are way more computer savvy people out there than MS thinks there are.  I myself am not a computer professional, but I’ve learned a lot in the past 35 years.  I’ve read books and taught myself the most needed info.  I’ve also gotten acquainted with Linux so I will have an alternative to Win 10 when the time comes.

      I really hope MS can get off their high mule, admit their shortcomings, and extend support for Win 7 for as long as possible.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132504 Reply

      anonymous

      Push come to shove MS did an update for XP this year.  They`ll do even more so for 7 after 2020  since many small businesses will still be using it.

    • #132522 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      One more thing to remember – an OS is only as fortified as its attack vectors.

      XP, despite being EOL, still had software updates for Chrome and Firefox for a long time.

      7 will continue this trend.

      Couple that with a good router/NAT and smart browsing habits, and there’s no reason to believe any OS, EOL or not, can’t be safe. I’d still feel comfortable on XP if Chrome was updated on it at this point, because that’s the only way people are going to get “in”. My NAT blocks everything else from the outside.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132553 Reply

      ViperJohn
      AskWoody Lounger

      The only hardware that will not run on 7 is the newest of the new, and that’s because Microsoft put up roadblocks – not because 7 is incapable of running on that hardware (AMD Ryzen, Intel Kaby Lake).

      Actually that is not true.  Both Asrock and Asus openly supply Window 7 drivers for Kaby Lake CPU MB’s and Microsofts attemp to prevent updates with “New Silicon” on Windows 7 is childs play to get around.  The one exception on the drivers is the W7 driver for the Kaby’s internal GPU.  They are there but do not work well IMO.

      There are also drivers for Ryzen CPU’s on Windows 7.  I haven’t tried them but my neighbor is running a W7 / Ryzen 1800 combo no problem.  I think you will also see W7 drivers for Coffee / Cannon Lake motherboards as well (it’s just inf file edits).  Face it the MB manufacturors want to sell their shiny new MB’s and Microsoft can’t even give away Windows 10 any more (and you can still get it free) it’s so bad and universally hated.

      There are 3 digit millions of W7 users out that won’t touch W10, even if you put a gun to their head, but would gobble up a 6 core I7-8700K or I5-8600K (or even a 4 core I3-8350) and new 370 series MB in a heart beat if they can run Win 7 with it. Limiting this new hardware to W10 only is a real fast way to sell about 60-80% less product….and the MB makers (and Intel) know it.

      • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  ViperJohn.
      • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  ViperJohn.
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      • #132568 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Lounger

        That pretty much hits the nail on the head.

    • #132563 Reply

      GoneToPlaid
      AskWoody Lounger

      There is no reason for individual PC’s with Windows 7 SP1 x64 to die. If treated right it will last. I am running Windows 7 SP1 x64 home premium desktop that was fired up in March 2010 after HP put it together in November 2009. It has been running perfectly, with just minor problems, since purchased from Best Buy. I am in Group B and follow Woody’s, along with the the other masters, orders. As of this morning, all parts are running smoothly.

      All of my Windows 7 computers are anywhere from a couple of years old to several years old. With the exception of my laptop computers, all of my computers are all home-built. Yet even my laptop computers which I travel with got the full tear-down and rebuild with every screw secured with ThreeBond 1401B adhesive so that rough handling and high frequency jet engine vibrations will not cause any screws to eventually become loose.

      I am solidly in Group B — perhaps more than most of you since I have also avoided specific updates which are known to cause various issues, because I periodically do other things to keep all of my Win 7 computers running like fine oiled machines, and because I get all updated hardware drivers straight from the hardware vendors instead of from Window Update. Due to past experiences, I trust Microsoft’s hardware driver updates less than how far I could throw a dead horse. All of my Win 7 computers are just as fast as the day I built them, and not one of my Win 7 computers transmits one peep of telemetry to Microsoft and their affiliates.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132567 Reply

      GoneToPlaid
      AskWoody Lounger

      Don’t blame it on the “bean counters’. I guarantee you that Windows 10 was not the brainchild of an accountant! OTOH, maybe the accountants deserve credit for Win7!

      I have to agree. Accountants would not have pushed Microsoft into ruining their most successful OS ever. IMO it was the hypesters and the slaves to fashion smitten with Apple envy who did this to Windows.

      Actually yes and no. Yes, MS wanted to complete against Apple’s cell phone empire. Yet no, since MS also (and perhaps more importantly to MS) wanted to overthrow Google in order to become the new advertising revenue and consumer metrics king. Thus MS dreamed up the idea of having their own OS (Windows 10) as a vector to directly deliver advertising straight onto all Windows 10 customer screens. And MS dreamed up the idea of having their own OS (Windows 10) deliver deep telemetry back to MS about everything about their consumers.

      Those telemetry packets contain information about every running program — including what AV software your computer is running. I am waiting for the day when one of the hundreds of MS and third party servers to which telemetry gets sent to from Windows 10 and Windows 7/8 Group A machines, is hijacked by cyber criminals who have figured out how to send back code which breaks out and into the OS. H**l, simply knowing what AV software your computer is running and whatever programs are running (embedded in the telemetry) might be enough information for a tailored reverse attack which both Windows and your AV software can’t see or stop. I see this as a huge can of worms which will eventually be opened.

       

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132581 Reply

      anonymous

      Win 10 us full of bloat and not an OS designed for a desktop , then there is it’s data harvesting , telemetry and privacy issues  Even after they pull support for win7 i’ll continue to use it

      • #132592 Reply

        anonymous

        Reply;

        Yes, agree. Win 10 is bloatware.
        . . . Those Microsofties in Redmond must think that most computer users are well-off like them, ie able to afford US$1,799 high-end computers(= Intel i7, 16GB RAM and 512GB NVMe SSD) and subscribing to Fiber-optic Internet package plans at about US$149.99 per month(= unlimited Data at 1000Mbps download speed).

        Bloatware = twice-yearly upgrades of about 3GB in downloads, monthly cumulative updates of a few hundred MB, the constant sending of Telemetry & back to M$’s servers of a few hundred MB weekly, etc. This is if the many upgrades and updates did not fail to install.

        Rural folks who could only avail themselves of very costly Satellite Internet or Mobile Internet and poor folks likely cannot afford to run Win 10.

        It was Mahatma Ghandi who said “A nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.”
        . . . M$ seem to only treat their richer users well, eg the Enterprise and Pro.

        • #132644 Reply

          anonymous

          “Rural folks who could only avail themselves of very costly Satellite Internet or Mobile Internet and poor folks likely cannot afford to run Win 10.”

          So true. I have Win10 Home on a 3Gb P/m plan and it is just a hopeless situation to try and use the laptop. The downloads just monster the laptop and I just have to disconnect the WiFi to regain control of the laptop, but I need it to be connected to be able to use the internet. Catch22.

          I am currently seeking to buy a Chromebook to avoid all of this total unnecessary Win10 user heartburn.

          Never, never again will I buy a Microsoft O/s or HP laptop, as all HP offered was Win10, not Win7 at all. So consumer blowback should eventually wake the company up, but just could be a bit too late if they don’t wake up to their selves before it does self inflicted economic damage.

          No good to be selling the “Best O/s” available when nobody wants or will buy it.

           

          • #132647 Reply

            woody
            Da Boss

            I sympathize – I lived for many years in a place where internet was sporadic at best, and always slow.

            Just a bit of warning: You may find the internet demands of the Chromebook to be higher than those of a Win10 computer. Possibly. I’m not aware of any studies of relative bandwidth requirements, but the Chromebook is highly dependent on having internet access.

          • #132648 Reply

            MrBrian
            AskWoody MVP
          • #132650 Reply

            Canadian Tech
            AskWoody MVP

            I don’t know if you care, but you can definitely still buy brand new Dell systems with Win7 installed. Just got one today for a client.

            The trick is that you go through the business web site, not the consumer one. You can also call and connect to the business sales people.

            Dell, knows perfectly well, that a significant portion of their business customers will buy nothing but Win7, just like me.

            CT

            3 users thanked author for this post.
            • #132679 Reply

              AJNorth
              AskWoody Lounger

              In addition, both HP and Lenovo are still offering some new CTO machines with an option to “downgrade” to Win 7 Pro (also on the business side).

            • #132687 Reply

              anonymous

              @ AJNorth

              Nearly all new OEM high-end or Business PCs preinstalled with Win 10 Pro have downgrade rights to Win 7/8.1 Pro but the buyers must already own Win 7/8.1 Pro or Ent Retail or Volume Licenses(VL) or Product Keys for activation.
              .
              As is known, to use Win 7/8.1 Ent VL, corporations are required to first buy new OEM Win 7/8.1 Pro computers before converting them to Win 7/8.1 Ent through VL activation, eg a common MAK key.
              . . . Power-users usually buy the more expensive Win 7/8.1 Pro Retail Licenses(= about US$200 each), install the OS themselves and activate with the provided COA Product Keys that usually came as a DVD box-set. Such Retail Licenses or Product Keys can be transferred to another computer or a newer computer later, eg one that came with Win 10 Pro with OEM downgrade rights.
              . . . The much cheaper Factory/pre-installed Win 7/8.1 Pro OEM Licenses(= about US$50 each) cannot be transferred to another computer = its Product Keys cannot be used for a new OEM Win 10 Pro computer with downgrade rights.

              That is why Canadian Tech recommends his clients to buy Win 7 Pro computers from Dell Business Division, and not buy Dell Win 10 Pro computers to be downgraded to Win 7 Pro for free.

        • #132722 Reply

          anonymous

          The PC that i use  that is running  win7 sp1 is a high spec  Intel i7, 16GB RAM and 250gb ssd  and  gtx 980ti GPU, self built, but i get it about the useage capped broadband packages, here in the ukmost are unlimited data use

      • #132603 Reply

        Canadian Tech
        AskWoody MVP

        Do you think Microsoft “supports” Windows 7 now???? Really!! You are better off to cut them off completely. My 130 client computers run better now than they have since I cut MS update off completely.

        The Jan 2020 means nothing. It is the date when Microsoft will stop polluting Win7 systems with defective patches and “new” features that nobody in their right mind would want.

        CT

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132582 Reply

      anonymous

      Lets face facts.  Visionaries don’t always see with 20/20 clarity.  Remember “Microsoft Bob”?

      • #132731 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        I think a whole lot of people will have “20/20” vision when Jan. 2020 rolls around.

    • #132624 Reply

      anonymous

      I’m still on Windows 7 because Windows 10’s first big update didn’t play nice with my computer. The first version didn’t quite, but I worked around it. But the second one made my hard drive incredibly slow, and rather than try a fresh install, I realized I wasn’t using anything new that Windows 10 had to offer, so I pulled up my clone of my Windows 7 computer, and was happy to find out I was still activated.

    • #132626 Reply

      Canadian Tech
      AskWoody MVP

      Anonymous, you are among a very large crowd having dumped Win10 and gone back. Over on the Microsoft Answers Forum there have been countless cases like yours. Most of them got into trouble because they did not have an image copy and needed a complete re-install. For many, if not most that is very problematic. They can not find the activation code, the disk and do not know how. Many never had either a disk or a code.

      I had one case of an elderly person who just could not figure out how to use their computer any longer and could not afford to pay someone to put it back the way they knew it. This is particularly sad among the elderly because their computer is (in her case was) her only contact with the outside world. Changes her whole life.

      Some got into more trouble when the clicked the button that told them it would put Win7 back. It does, sort of, but leaves things in a mess.

      CT

      • #132728 Reply

        johnf
        AskWoody Lounger

        It would take all of 20 minutes to backup her data, then another 15 minutes to install Linux Mint or Linux Lite. Configure it to look like her old W7  (with icons on the desktop), install Libreoffice and VLC (another 10 minutes), restore her data, along with her old bookmarks for Chrome or Firefox, and she’s up and running in an hour…with no worries. She won’t need to buy a new PC, either.

        Not that hard, and Linux won’t force changes on her either. One MS gets Skype for Linux out of Beta, then she’ll have email, facebook and skype to talk to the family!

         

      • #132782 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody Lounger

        CT,

        That is one of the things that really bothered me about the whole GWX campaign.

        Ever since the Windows 95 days, when standalone Win 95 “upgrade edition” boxes were being sold all over the place (and for considerably less than the “full” edition), it’s been common knowledge among tech types that Windows upgrades are often problematic, and that a clean install is the preferred way to go if it is at all possible.  We’ve also known of the importance of preserving the pre-existing working Windows installation; that is, the importance of a reliable and tested backup.

        Microsoft, without a doubt, is aware of this too.

        With that in mind,  it’s notable that GWX did nothing to inform the millions of people it was exhorting to accept the Windows 10 upgrade that the procedure was risky.  Rather than having a stern warning that a small but definite percentage of PCs that attempted the upgrade would be rendered unable to boot OR roll back, thus illustrating the importance of having a backup before proceeding, the GWX adware instead made it all seem so harmless… something akin to “We’ve checked your computer and found it is compatible with Windows 10, and it’s fully reversible if you don’t like it.”  It makes it sound (deliberately) like there’s no risk at all!

        MS, clearly, was only interested in one thing, and that was getting as close to its “billion devices running Windows 10” goal as possible.  That’s why we got GWX, why it used dark patterns to trick people to accepting it when they thought they were saying no, why it downloaded the entire installer in the background even for people who did not “reserve” their copy of 10 or otherwise indicate interest in it, why it in some cases appears to have installed itself without permission, on and on.  Nothing was to stand in the way of Microsoft’s goal!  Not the lack of desire for 10 from the people actually owning the computers, not concern over the continued usability or functionality of those computers… nothing!

        If MS had simply given a warning that all upgrades are a potentially risky operation where unexpected things can happen and render both the new installation and the old one unusable, so please check this box to indicate that you have read this and have performed a backup (provide box)… then anyone who got messed up by not having a backup would have only themselves to blame.  The user would have given informed consent at that point, and if they lied and told the installer they’d done a backup when they hadn’t, it’s no one’s fault but their own.

        As it stands, though, MS bears the blame for those failures, because it pushed a procedure on millions of non-techie types who ordinarily would have been advised not to attempt an in-place upgrade on their own, and it did so without the slightest whisper regarding the risks it was imposing. MS concluded, no doubt, that some people who would accept the deal with the “Pollyanna” wording would refuse it and stick with what they have if they knew that it was risky enough to require such a warning, and that would not get them any closer to that billion devices.

        They knew, I have no doubt, that average people would interpret the statements that GWX had checked their computer and found it compatible as an “expert” opinion that this was a good idea– after all, this is Microsoft talking here!  If they don’t know how to spot a good candidate for the upgrade, who would?

        MS knew that soft-bricking a certain number of PCs was going to happen, but that’s just a risk they were willing to take (with other people’s stuff) to get to their goal.  One MS employee, writing as a columnist for one of the tech sites, called this “dying on the table” and glibly dismissed it as unavoidable given the circumstances.

        Well, good sir, do you think maybe Microsoft could have told its trusting users of that very fact before it pressured them into accepting the upgrade?  Don’t you think that’s the very kind of thing the owners of those PCs that “died on the table” might have liked to know in advance?

         

         

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #132672 Reply

      anonymous

      Canadian Tech: Fortunately, I had tried out the Windows 8 trial back in the day, and everyone said to clone the Windows 7 partition because it would be hard to go back. So I read up on how to do that. I didn’t wind up sticking with Windows 8, but I remembered how I did that and cloned the drive again before I took the Windows 10 upgrade.

      I even knew about a tricky bit in the registry that had to be changed (from the other copy) so that both clones would think they were drive C:. So I was very prepared for Windows 10, without relying on that ability to go back. So I had it set up to dual boot.

      That saved me when Windows 10 just started running slowly. Anything that required accessing my hard drive took forever. At first I thought my hard drive was going bad, but then one day I booted into Windows 7, and found it worked just fine. That’s why I moved back.

      It didn’t help that I’d spent hours putting everything back after that first big Update, and completely lost the ability to use my old video driver, without Windows replacing it with one that didn’t have OpenGL support. And I’d tried various methods to help with caching from the disk, to no avail. So I was just ready to give up on it.

      (And while I never did actually buy Windows 8, I actually had no problems with the previoew. And it was more different than 10!)

      I never plan to try Windows 10 again until I have an SSD and new GPU. Then I may give it another shot.

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

    Reply To: Keizer: Win7 is sticking around more than XP did in its final years

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