M.2 upgrade help/suggestions requested PM916 to 970 EVO Plus

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win 11 on Lenovo T570 via registry patch. Current via wumgr.

I have an SSK brand M.2 to USB3 adapter, and a Samsung 970 EVO Plus 500GB on the way from Amazon tomorrow.

I want to replace the Samsung mzvlw256hehp-000l7 PM961 256GB, which came with this T570 when I bought it used a couple years ago, with a Samsung 970 EVP Plus 500GB. This is partially to replace an aging M.2, and partially to get more space if I should need it in the future, though I don’t at the moment. My laptop is only capable of PCIe 3.0 X2 so I will likely not notice much speed increase. I would have to spend a LOT of money to be X4 capable (new machine)(NOT an option).

I tried this before by putting a new M.2  in the laptop and Macrium restoring an image. Mint would boot fine but win would not succesfully boot – the windows logo would just sit there forever. So I returned that stuff. This was maybe 6 mos ago (win10 I think). Now going to try again.

The plan is to try Macrium boot stick CLONE and see what happens. I have 2 choices: 1) put new M.2 in adapter and clone out from old M.2 and then swap M.2’s , OR,  2) Put new M.2 into laptop and put old M.2 into adapter and clone in.

Is this good? Any suggestions/alternatives would be appreciated!

Thanks!

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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Not certain this is the case in your scenario, but some of the Lenovo laptops I’ve cloned in the last couple years had Bitlocker enabled from the factory, which prevented the cloned drive from booting into Windows with no errors shown, just the blue boot screen.

You can remove the Bitlocker encryption before the clone, then turn it back on afterwards if it’s desired.

This article covers the methods for Windows 7, 8 and 10:

https://windowsreport.com/disable-bitlocker-windows-8/

 

~ Group "Weekend" ~

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krism

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Many thanks! I ran “manage-bde -status” and got this which I believe says I am okay.

 

 

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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Any of the backup programs should successfully restore an image to the new SSD. Cloning is just a less efficient method of doing the same thing.

If Windows won’t work after a restore then you could try reinstalling Windows, keeping existing data.

cheers, Paul

p.s. please post text to your reply. Much more convenient for us than having to download, check, open, close, delete….

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it was long and would have made the thread visibly very long but I will consider it next time. Thanks for comment.

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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Perhaps Windows managed to sneak an update on before you shut down to image? Might work next time!

The only I can think to check is the presence and size of the MSR partition as MS have decided it needs to be 16Gb – a lot of OEMs used the maximum 128 (it increased based on disk size) for Windows 7 / 8 and I seem to recall there was  a discussion as it was suggested Macrium does image that scratch space, rather than just recreating the partition. There is the matter where Lenovo also sometimes have a 1Gb WinRE partition between MSR and Windows partitions to annoy some used to working with the usual layout.. which might get in the mix somehow (though I found nothing specific on problems with that or MSR partition size..).

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/manufacture/desktop/configure-uefigpt-based-hard-drive-partitions?view=windows-11

The final strangest suggestion is maybe to briefly fresh install your new drive just sufficient to boot to a desktop, installing from the OS media, so the pre-boot environment has boot information associated with that drive hardware before you load your image to the drive over the top.

 

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Success. But with a bit of stuff.
Did method 2) : put new M.2 in laptop and old in adapter (where it can stay).
Had to boot to Gparted and create partition table as GPT on new M.2 .
Then booted to Macrium and cloned old M.2-on-adapter to new M.2-in-laptop.
Powered off and unplugged all externals except mouse dongle and booted.
Booted straight to win 11.
Did NOT show grub. Checked fat and it was there in EFI.
Bios F12 booted to ubuntu but just flickered and back to BIOS boot menu.
BIOS F1 and changed boot order to windows boot mgr at top and LO, grub appeared.
Booted to Mint. Fine.
Noted that boot order auto changed by linux to put ubuntu on top again, but now apparently a “correct” ubuntu.
Booted, got grub, and booted to windows mgr and got win.
So all is well.

Speeds compared with Crystal and HDTach show perhaps 20% improve overall though peak stays about the same, as expected. Just a new M.2 with no wear and tear. Glad I did it.

Now I have a very fragmented backup 1T SSD external so I think I will create a new temp partition on the 500GB and copy everything on the external to the temp, and then copy it back and see how it looks.

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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krism wrote:

Now I have a very fragmented backup 1T SSD

No such thing in SSDland.
SSDs allocate the data internally for wear levelling. This means every file is likely to be fragmented internally, except on a brand new SSD.
The speed of the SSD makes up for any fragmentation.

Windows file fragmentation is only an issue if the individual file fragment number is too high. Windows automatically corrects this.

cheers, Paul

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I am aware that this is a common belief. I should have done timing tests before I defragged that 870 EVO to see if I could see the difference, so I yet have no “proof”. I spent a few minutes googling  – past the volumes of articles that simply repeated the mantra don’t defrag, and found this. https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/210492-extremetech-explains-how-do-ssds-work

What I am interested in, here, is the fact that ssd’s are faster in the beginning, and then slow down. At least partially because everything that is asked of it requires a lot of garbage collecting. Perhaps as an example, I asked defraggler to defrag it, and left it and came back in a few hours and it hadn’t gotten anywhere – simply thrashing – move it, clear it, and again and again. What I did, after I installed the 500GB 970 was to create a 270GB temp partition and copy the Macrium stuff into there (cut, paste, one at a time). Then there wasn’t much left on the 870 so defraggler was able to fairly quickly make it look very neat. No fragments. Then I copied those Macrium images back in, one at a time, and when done it looked very neat.
Now, “looking” neat, in itself, doesn’t prove anything (the timing tests might have), but now there is much less garbage collecting that needs to be done – at least for now. I am sorry I did not do the timing tests but rest assured, when I defrag it a year from now, I will. 🙂

There is another reason we were told not to defrag ssd’s – when they were new there was a lot of concern that they were fragile, and some, indeed, were. I have always stuck with Samsung for ssd’s and have defragged them lots and NEVER had a failure. Which is why I stick with them.

Timing: I do “feel” that my opsys is a tad more sprightly after I have defragged it – I generally do win 2 or 3 times a year, other ntfs partitions as needed. If I am deluding myself, then nothing is lost, and no failures have ensued.

EDIT: this does not mention trim. Win11 does that (it calls it “optimize”) on a schedule weekly which is probably more than necessary but I left it.

(dons fireproof suit)
Be well! 🙂

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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krism wrote:

this does not mention trim. Win11 does that (it calls it “optimize”)

Nope. TRIM happens whenever the OS decides, generally within 20 seconds of a delete / mod. Without this, write performance would quickly degrade as new writes would need to first erase pre used cells.
Optimize is other management tasks (including defrag) that only need to happen occasionally.
TRIM has been built in to Windows since 7.

cheers, Paul

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I have been influenced by info like this:

https://www.easeus.com/partition-master/defrag-an-ssd.html

Considering this difference, Microsoft makes a big change in this feature in Windows 8/10, etc., new operating systems. When you open the Drive Optimizer, when you choose to optimize an HDD, this tool will defrag it. When you optimize an SSD, it will send the TRIM command to notify system to erase blocks that are no longer considered for use.

https://www.howtogeek.com/256859/dont-waste-time-optimizing-your-ssd-windows-knows-what-its-doing/

There are some important optimizations, but Windows performs them all automatically. If you used an SSD with Windows XP or Vista, you needed to manually enable TRIM, which ensures your SSD can clean up deleted files and stay speedy. However, ever since Windows 7, Windows has automatically enabled TRIM for any drive it detects as solid-state.

The same goes for disk defragmentation. Performing a typical defragmentation operation on an SSD isn’t a good idea–even if wear isn’t a concern, attempting to move all that data around won’t speed up file access times like it will on a mechanical drive. But Windows already knows this, too: modern versions of Windows will detect that SSD and will turn off defragging. In fact, modern versions of Windows won’t even let you attempt to defragment an SSD.

On Windows 8 and 10, the “Optimize Drives” application will attempt to optimize your SSDs even further. Windows will send the “retrim” command on the schedule you configure. This forces the SSD to actually delete data that should have been deleted when TRIM commands were originally sent. Windows 8 and 10 will also perform an SSD-optimized type of defragmentation about once a month. Microsoft employee Scott Hanselman offers more details on his blog.

– – – – – – – – –
I had forgotten this one: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/free-up-drive-space-in-windows-a18fae02-a0fa-8df9-9838-8970f9939de4

Windows 11
Delete files with Storage sense
Select Start > Settings > System > Storage. Open Storage settings.
Turn on Storage sense to have Windows delete unnecessary files automatically.

Be well

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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Those articles tell you what Windows does during an optimize.
During normal use, Windows TRIMs regularly.

cheers, Paul

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krism

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Thanks! Is there an article that you could point me to that describes the continuous trim. Or is that exactly what my previous article a few posts up was calling garbage collection? Thanks.

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_(computing)

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krism

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The Extreme Tech site you linked explains both very well.

The TRIM command allows the operating system to tell the SSD it can skip rewriting certain data the next time it performs a block erase.

Garbage collection is a background process that allows a drive to mitigate the performance impact of the program/erase cycle by performing certain tasks in the background.

Win 10 home - 22H2
Attitude is a choice...Choose wisely

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krism

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Many thanks to both of you!
That leaves me with a question of how to rejuvenate an old ssd, particularly nvme but include regular 2.5″? This is a bit of a zen question as the nvme in question shows no errors but an 83% Health status (Crystal Disk Info). and HDTach shows a number of dips

whereas the new one is a straight line .

Background mechanisms incl garbage collecting, and win11 optimize/retrim, don’t improve it.

Secure erase?

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
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- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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Secure erase will help, but there’s nothing that can bring back redirected cells on older SSD’s, nor reset the write wear.

 

I would not trust that drive for an OS drive or mission critical data, but it can still have life as an application drive (or large games which can be easily re-installed if it fails.)

~ Group "Weekend" ~

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krism

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Yes, Though it WAS the core of my laptop, I need to accept that an nvme with up to 5 years of use can not be depended upon, even for low use backup. (I had planned to use it as one of my off-site backups.) Thanks.

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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krism wrote:

I need to accept that an nvme with up to 5 years of use can not be depended upon

I trust my ~4 years old Nvme SSD with Windows OS installed in a laptop that is on 24/7 and never shuts down :
Health status of 85%
Host reads – 62936 GB
Host writes – 56232 GB
Power on – 25230 hours.

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krism

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Yes, I could have well left it in my laptop and run safely for another 3 years (its history is probably that it was in a business that was upgrading since there were a few of them that were being sold, so probably 3.5 years of business use and 1.5 years of my use.)

I think that while I can not depend on it totally, I can certainly use it as one of my off-site backups. It just wouldn’t be prudent to have it be the ONLY one, or the ONLY-ONE-with that date backup.

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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Alex5723

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krism wrote:

I need to accept that an nvme with up to 5 years of use can not be depended upon

No drive can be depended upon.  At some point, all drives will fail.  This is why everyone should image / clone the operating system drive and backup their data to offline storage.

Win 10 home - 22H2
Attitude is a choice...Choose wisely

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krism

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Agreed. I Macrium image at least several times a month, more if I am making changes, and probably off-site once a month. eg recently I was trying to recover/replace a bad winRE and so there were about 7 75GB images as I progressed through that process, not knowing which I would need if things went bust, or if I discovered a better way of doing things. Then, as the system worked well, I could slowly start deleting some of those. I STILL have a backup from just before I updated win10 to win11. A little prudence can save you gobs of time!!!

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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mledman

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I would not use an SSD for backup. They have limited data storage life if left powered off compared to an HDD.
If you are stuck for a backup drive you can use one as a short term measure.

cheers, Paul

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krism

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You bring up a VERY good point. I have a couple older laptops that I don’t boot,but now realizing I should, at least every 3 months or so. Since it only takes milliseconds for the capacitors to charge, I am guessing they don’t need to be on long. I also have a few loose ssd’s, and those, too, should be at least powered up, again, every 3 months. Apparently they can go for a year w/o power, so guessing very conservatively. THANKS!!!!!!!!

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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This got me to pull out my older spare laptops and plug them in. The batteries, which had been stored separately, were pretty drained so 1.5 hours to charge them. I need to do that more frequently. I do have 3 2.5″ HDs, 2 of which are used for off-site. This is all very good! Thanks!

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2.
others...
- Mint Cinnamon 21 current, Win 10 22H2. WuMgr. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner.

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