Mozilla execs clash over whether Firefox has a future

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A fascinating story from Gregg Keizer at Computerworld: http://www.computerworld.com/article/3199006/web-browsers/mozilla-execs-clash-over-whether-fir
[See the full post at: Mozilla execs clash over whether Firefox has a future]

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Elly, MrToad28, SueW, HiFlyer, dononline, JohnW

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There is no way, I repeat, no way, the Information Vacuum Cleaner called Chrome will ever be installed on a computer I own. When IE hits the dust bin, Firefox, Opera, Vivaldi, Slimboat, Sleipnir, Doodle, even Edge (cringe) or any one of 15 or 20 other possibilities will become my friend. I’ll find something. Never Chrome! 🙂

 

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Elly, JDeC, AlexN, Charlie, BobbyB, MrToad28, Noel Carboni, SueW, HiFlyer, MrJimPhelps, samak, Bill C.

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Firefox will be pried from my cold, dead fingers.  I’ve got it too tricked out to just give all that up.

Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
A weatherman that can code

1 user thanked author for this post.

JDeC

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I use Palemoon on Winx (the o/s which I just despise). Palemoon appears to give me what I want in a browser but then I am a very limited home user. Your thoughts?

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I’ve used Pale Moon for ~7 years as my default browser, it works for me 🙂

I’m quite heavy on browser usage, stability and security are most important and PM fits the bill for me. Even though as a beta tester for PM, I need to reboot/change versions quite often during testing cycles, it’s not uncommon outside that to have PM uptimes of 16+ days with the x64 build.

Most users would be fine with the x86 build, it’s very lightweight and easy on system resources, plenty quick enough.

Even though there’s usually a delay of a few days waiting for security patch details from Mozilla before we can test/release an updated version, it often has a number of extra (defence in depth) changes made.

In terms of privacy, it’s also ahead of FX.

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Elly, Cascadian

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As a less talented user of Pale Moon, thank you for your work.

Some forgotten years ago left FF for Opera which went through changes, lots of changes. When looking around was not tempted by others so stayed. I had bought the line that Pale Moon was ‘unfinished’ or ‘pretty rough around the edges’ and never gave it the test drive it deserved.

More recently became excited with Vivaldi returning to the good in Opera, even though I was concerned about the engine. Waited for it to mature, and fell in love, apparently for not very long though. I have forgotten why, or when exactly, but something made me say ‘nope, no more.’ I gave Pale Moon the trial it deserved, and feel no urge to keep shopping.

I understand it is highly customizable, but really just turning off some bells and whistles and simplify a couple of tweaks makes it everything I need, which is not much. As they say, ‘it just works.’ Also, when something or other has become twitchy, I have found the adjustable User Agent to be helpful in a way I do not fully understand, but appreciate.

Thanks again for your part in making it work.

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Elly, satrow

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@Satrow.

Thank you for taking the time to explaining your experience with Pale Moon. I think I will now with a bit more confidence continue using it, as I now know it has some better strengths than FF. Now only if WinX could be so easily controlled and improved/reverted to the nirvana of Win7. In a word WinX is a Shocker!!! and I am doing everything that I can to locally source a retail version and genuine Key of Win7 so that I can go back to some form of normality and peace. I am just so weary of this continual forced updating regime and its effect on the WinX Home user PC. Woody’s site is our only savior in keeping the reigns in on WinX.

Cheers Anon #119000

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Andy, do the Firefox add-ons work with Pale Moon? Specifically, does NoScript work with Pale Moon?

Thanks.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 8.1 running in a VM

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NoScript does, here’s the link

https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/noscript/

Here’s more info from the PaleMoon site on Firefox Add On’s, and work-arounds (down the page):

https://addons.palemoon.org/incompatible/

 

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MrJimPhelps, Elly

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The Palemoon version of noscript is 5.06, whereas the current version for FF is 5.09

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You know, I really like Chrome and Chromebooks/Boxes … the developer tools are top notch!

But Firefox is still my daily driver.  🙂

That said, I would probably recommend Chrome to my family and friends, as I think it is probably the most secure browser, out of the box.  It is the only browser that I allow to run the Flash plugin!

My preference for Firefox boils down to the bookmark manager, and overall customization features available.

With Chrome, you must do everything exactly the way Google wants you to.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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MrToad28, AlexEiffel

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@JohnW:

Based on your comments, do you believe that Chrome should be the recommended browser for people with little to no computer skills, for example, elderly people? Same question for the Chromebook?

It seems, from reading peoples’ comments about Chrome and about the Chromebook, that these would be the easiest for people to successfully use if they have little to no computer skills. For example, an elderly person who wants to keep up with the grandchildren via email.

Jim

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 8.1 running in a VM

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Based on experience, I would have to say the answer is yes.  I supported 3 PC’s and a Mac for my father, over 18 years.  He is now in his 80’s, and the computers were increasingly a burden for him to deal with.

When the Mac hit end of life last year, I shipped him a ChromeBox.  I talked him through the initial connections and setup over the phone.  It was a drop in replacement for his Mac Mini.

Everything he does with a computer now is through the browser, so all he does is turn the ChromeBox on, and open the browser.  Done.  Doesn’t get any easier than that, and I no longer get support calls.

I like the fact that the Chrome browser automatically updates, and can run Flash or PDF files as needed without 3rd party extensions.  So out of the box, it just works, and you don’t need to update anything, plus the default settings are secure enough.  He runs in guest mode only, without a Google account, so his session is wiped each time he powers the box off.  So it’s almost like running a live CD or stick!

Personally I use and prefer Firefox as my main browser, and would recommend it for power users, but for casual users I would recommend Chrome.  I also use Chrome for media sites that require Flash.   That way I can avoid installing Flash in Firefox.  One less vector there for malware!  🙂

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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One more question: What about connecting an iPhone or Android to a Chromebox with a USB cable? That’s how I get pictures off of my wife’s iPhone. I plug it in, open the folder on the iPhone, and copy the pics to a folder on my Windows or Linux computer.

I know lots of people who are getting up in age, particularly my parents-in-law. My father in law does only four things on his computer: Gmail, Facebook, YouTube, and connect his phone to get the pictures off of it. He’s not very computer-savvy, to put it mildly. Microsoft hosed his Windows 7 computer when they snuck Windows 10 onto it. It sounds like a Chromebook would be ideal for him.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 8.1 running in a VM

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It sounds good, except maybe for the last part.  I have never used local file storage on a Chrome device, or connected a USB mass storage device to it.

My Dad is strictly using his as a thin client network computer, and in my opinion it excels in that role.

But I have heard that USB devices can be attached.  Maybe somebody else will chime in with the details.

It would make sense if you could attach the camera, and then upload the images  to web storage at Google Photos, Flickr, etc., or copy them a USB portable drive.  That would also allow you to attach them to Facebook posts, emails, etc.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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You know those graphs reminds me of the famous error in forecasting of a market made by IBM or another big company a long time ago in the 70s or 80s continuing an exponential trend that just ended up stopping being like that after the forecast. You can’t predict the future based on a trend like this if you don’t have a good idea what factors are at play here. If we play this game, Edge will always stay at about 5-7% or whatever it is right now and continue to have a very slow growth and there will never be a new browser because it wasn’t on the graph already.

You need to look at the reasons people use a certain browser. I am not surprised people at home use Chrome. It has a lot going for it for pure technical reasons. What I don’t understand is that businesses have adopted it, apparently ignoring any privacy concerns about it. To me, privacy is the main market for Firefox (and before it was also extensions, but I am not sure it is as important today). Privacy is the thing that differentiates Firefox. Maybe if Firefox made it easier for enterprises, it could be chosen, but still, why did companies adopt Chrome when IE didn’t offer the privacy issues? Was IE that bad for corporate use? I don’t know to which extent the privacy concerns over Chrome are real issues as I never really researched the question, being happy with Firefox and its clear orientation on it, just like I never used Google Desktop and waited until Windows Search although I found the idea so good, just because I didn’t want to be part of the data collection and didn’t needed it badly at the time.

I would feel even more technologically homeless without Firefox and I would certainly choose Google over Microsoft if given a choice, for security and respectability. Maybe people left Firefox when they tried to be a less than good impersonation of chrome or when they started doing too much UI changes for the sake of change instead of focusing on more important issues. Lately, I felt they were back on track. I would be curious to hear about why businesses and home users use one browser in particular. Support of standards was lacking in IE? I’m puzzled. Chrome could be seen as arguably safer than Firefox, but better than a well tuned and locked IE in the big corporate world? Not sure.

Maybe for SMBs, Chrome is an easier, safer product out of the box than any competing one. They were the first with a sandbox, a clear focus on security and simplicity, and Google is arguably the best company when it comes to proactive security.

If I were Firefox, I would push the privacy argument a lot, while focusing on security so they could say we are the safest (or close) private browser, plus I would make it easy for big businesses to manage it, which has been the achille’s heel of Thunderbird too. Fix that and now you have a lot less reason to choose a browser that records what you do. Don’t provide any differentiation and be less good than others at the rest and the scenario outlined in the article might very much happen.

As for me, I find it very easy now to manage Firefox on SMBs. You can install it, it autoupdates without having to give user admin rights if they run in standard accounts, it has good default settings, don’t change them all the time and introduces new good ideas to improve security like the integrated pdf reader, the activate on demand only flash player, etc. For me, it is a very good product and I don’t have complaints from anyone with it.

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Elly, HiFlyer, samak, Cascadian

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I do not have any data to refute the article. But the supplied line graphs, with projected curves seemed a misuse of statistical analysis. To my untrained eye, a rising then plateauing line reflects a trend of negative rate of growth month over month. Not that it is losing customer base. But certainly does not support such an optimistic projection for growth.

It looked more like a first year draughtsman discovered an ancient tool called a French Curve, and wanted to experiment with fitting curves. I half expected to see the curve continue and turn back on itself, reversing the flow of time itself.

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There has been an ebb-and-flo with browsers. Mostly it is caused by who gets their act together for awhile dominants for a period. Then someone else does the same. For any browser to be dominant it most be considered better than the rest. Firefox has been lagging of late so they better get their act together.

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Perhaps if Mozilla had Firefox bundled (and ticked to install by default) with almost every program you download these days like Google does with Chrome then I’m sure Firefox would be the dominant browser today.

Even my Gigabyte motherboard driver disc from 2 years ago has Google Chrome and Google Toolbar ticked to install by default.

I’ve had friends ring me up and ask “what’s this Google Chrome and how did it get on my computer?” because (like most people) they just click OK right through the installation screen of everything they download.

I’ve even had one or two not even realize Chrome was on their computer (despite the obvious Chrome icon on the taskbar).

Carl D.

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Elly, Charlie, AlexEiffel

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Google is doing the same thing now as Microsoft did back in the day, by bundling IE with Windows and making IE the browser by default.  Monopoly?

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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That could explain in part why Edge doesn’t get more market share even if installed by default among the people who don’t know which browser they use. Microsoft sets Edge by default, then as soon as a program update or install happens, Chrome takes over. Interesting.

I always found it puzzling that Edge is not more used since there is good amount of people who never think about browsers and just “go on the Internet” on their computer.

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I use firefox ever since I moved from IE, I did use chrome for a while but my netbook only has 1gb of RAM and chrome eats it up like a boss, my pc crashed a couple of times when I used chrome so even if I had to change I wouldnt choose chrome

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My favorite browser of all time was Netscape Navigator.  Then came Microsoft with the freebie IE…

I also liked the Opera browser when it first offered an alternative!

Has anybody noticed lately that Opera has switched to Chromium?

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/148312-opera-drops-presto-switch-to-google-and-apples-webkit-rendering-engine

https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/04/opera-confirms-it-will-follow-google-and-ditch-webkit-for-blink-as-part-of-its-commitment-to-chromium/

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/02/hey-presto-opera-switches-to-webkit/

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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Elly, dononline

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Why leave Chrome for the new Opera?

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/leave-chrome-for-opera

 

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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“Browsers are commodities, Gal asserted. “They all pretty much look the same and feel the same. All browsers work pretty well, and being slightly faster or using slightly less memory is unlikely to sway users,” he added, disputing Petitt’s contention that improvements would return Firefox to growth.”

Well, there’s your problem right there.

Of course browsers are going to seem like commodities if everyone tries to see how much they can make their browser look and act like Chrome.  That’s been what Mozilla has been up to for several years now, and it’s culminating with the abandonment of the vast, powerful FF addon library in favor of… yes, Chrome addons.

I used to like Firefox as far as look and feel out of the box, but I’ve always used addons to tweak it just to my liking.  Even before Australis, though, more and more of the addons have been more about undoing what Mozilla had done to make Firefox look, feel, and behave less like Firefox and more like Chrome.  It was annoying, but as long as I could eventually end up with it the way I wanted FF to be, it was good enough.

Without its addons, though, Firefox is not good enough, and neither are any of the Chromium-based browsers I tried (Vivaldi, Brave, Opera).  Contrary to the citation from Gal above, most browsers do not work “pretty well” for me.  Most of them stink on ice.  Even Vivaldi falls far short of offering the UI customization I require (though offering it out of the box would be a workable substitute for that level of customization ability).  With its addon library, Firefox is several orders of magnitude more customizable than Vivaldi.  Firefox with no addon other than Classic Theme Restorer would probably still fit that description.

The last time I got into this topic (on another site), the familiar argument about most users not being power users appeared.  We’re in the minority, they say, but they never finish the thought.  “We’re in the minority, so it’s okay to ignore us” is the real statement.  That gets extended to “We’re in the minority, so it’s okay to ignore us and to remove every single feature that someone arbitrarily decides is a “power user” feature.

Of course, I don’t know how you can decisively state that most FF users are or are not “power users.”  I am not even really sure what the exact definition of a power user is.  But even if we could precisely define one, how would we know what percentage of FF users are power users?  Do we really know that a power user (assuming we can delineate the concept) necessarily fits a given profile of Firefox addons and settings?  Or do the addons and settings DEFINE power user, as far as they are concerned?

If so, how do they know?  The only thing I can think of is the telemetry– which is far more likely to be turned off by power-user types than by “regular” users.  Microsoft learned the folly of depending too much on incomplete telemetry data when they decided to remove the start button because no one used it anymore.  I’m sure that is part of why they’ve endeavored to make telemetry un-disableable in Windows 10.

The irony with where we’ve arrived now (discussing the powerful XUL addons of Firefox as a power-user oriented bit of bloat) is that the whole concept of a powerful set of addon APIs was supposed to be the counterpoint to bloat and features aimed at techie-type users.  Only mainstream features would be part of the core Firefox; all the more esoteric stuff would be optional, as an addon.  Now that very structure itself is being seen as what it was meant to cure.

It’s not bad to have a niche.  So what if Firefox was/is/will be a power user browser?  Is that bad?  Must every product in existence cater to the lowest common denominator (and no one else)?

There’s already a browser designed for that market, and it has the majority share.   Mozilla thinks it can out-Chrome the actual Chrome,  to the point that it can overcome the massive marketing benefit Google has in being able to advertise Chrome on search pages that nearly every net user on the planet sees regularly?  It’s going to do that with the only benefit to Firefox being that it doesn’t spy on you, which (as we’ve seen with the rapid rise in market share of Chrome) people have already demonstrated (sadly) they don’t care about?

Going head to head with the 800 pound gorilla of browsers for the mainstream seems like suicide when you’re just a little red panda.  It was always the tech-oriented people that evangelized Mozilla products and formed its early user base.  Mozilla wasn’t concerned about market share, per se, as much as making the best browser they could, and having faith that if they built it, the users will come.  From that point, Firefox began to make some real inroads into the market share of IE, right up until Chrome arrived and sucked all of the air out of the room.

So far, I am really enjoying Pale Moon.  It’s matured quite a bit since I last tried it, though I note with amusement that my addon count is a little higher than with Firefox, even though I don’t need all the addons to undo the UI changes in FF that are not in PM. A lot of the good changes to FF didn’t make it to PM either, but as addons, they are available.

Still, it depends on Firefox for its continued existence, so I am concerned that the FF code base will eventually diverge from the old code base (as enshrined in PM) that it will no longer be possible to backport all of the important stuff like new standard support and security fixes.   It’s also a big question if those Firefox addons that will no longer work on FF but will continue to work on PM will continue to be developed or just be dropped (already a bunch have been), or how they will be hosted when they’re booted from the official FF repo.

 

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johnf, Elly, AlexEiffel, Pim

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I think you bring an excellent point about the bloat. The idea of keeping Firefox basic, simple, lighter by letting extensions handle the rest was a great one indeed. I would have liked pocket and all those things to be extensions, even if Mozilla made them, instead of being forced as mandatory features.

A lot of people seem mad about the new UI. I don’t like it as much as the previous one, but I don’t think a browser’s UI should be on the top list of your criteria. It’s about the content, not the container. Really, I rarely use the UI and I rely on keyboard shortcuts for most features. Granted, a non power user might be annoyed if it is not easy to manage their bookmarks or even see them. But it shouldn’t be that hard to make a UI that enables you to do the quite basic stuff an UI is used for in a browser. Focus on making the content work. As someone here said, supporting drm was important because if people can’t watch Netflix, you have a problem, and also supporting the web standards. I think IE struggled at some point when they tried to be too proprietary and had issues with supporting standards.

I was annoyed with the announcement of the rolling releases, but I must say that after being on it for a long time, it don’t bother me much because there was nothing there I found I had to tweak to maintain a good web experience. I don’t mind a rolling release to support a new web standard or things like that that don’t get in your way. If they reorganize the UI but keep the old settings and don’t introduce ones I might want to change without warning me, I am ok with that too. I might not even look at the new UI changes, but it won’t bother me, although I think they look more like kids trying to have fun coding than devoting their resources to more important issues when they do that. What you need is not a programming team where coding interesting things is the priority, but a team focus on a vision of making the best web browser the world need.

I don’t want to use forks of projects if I am not sure they are patched quickly and reliably for security issues. I don’t like the idea I could put 70 people on a fork and end up the project being abandoned a few years later or if the autoupdate is not as polished, having them stuck at an old version. I enjoy Firefox’s set it and forget it approach. This has good value.

Chrome offers most of what you could enjoy as features and security, so maybe the only differentiation relevant in the long term would be the privacy aspect, which like you said don’t seem to matter that much to a lot of people, and even businesses. Mozilla should focus on building the best niche browser and not chase an improbable mass market dominance.

I consider myself as a power user but I don’t use many extensions and I didn’t researched that much those I use. I think it is great that Mozilla could provide a lighter browser while letting people with specific needs use whatever extension they want, as long as it doesn’t compromise security.

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I found and switched to Pale Moon after the Brandon Eich fiasco, and missed Firefox’s Australis UI. On Windows, I was able to use it for 96+% of my uses, with IE an occasional filler for some really odd websites. My broadband is satellite, and the speed-of-light delays can raise h*** in some scripts.

I stayed with Pale Moon when my internet-facing machine (the Win 7 box is Group W, and all networking is turned off). PM for linux is a little bit clunky, but I still have about a 95+% success rate. Firefox (version 45.2) is my backup browser for this. Usually, I’ll need it for those satellite delays, and when some bit of javascript conflicts with my linux setup (which isn’t an out-of-the-box one). I never bothered to configure FF; it’s usually cut and paste from the PM URL line.

Oh yeah; two add-ons: NoScript and Adblock Latitude (disabled on this page).

The PM folks are well aware of the issues of being a small fish, but it looks like they are doing some long-term work to create a new engine to support the browser. I’m optimistic.

TL;DR PM works well in Windows, with another browser as backup. In linux, it works well, but you can find some odd issues if you don’t use a standard distribution setup.

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Elly, AlexEiffel

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I lost all interest in Firefox after they implemented Australis and took away a lot of customization that used to be there. They also bloated the c*** out of the browser in the meantime.

Chrome works great for me because I have a Google account, I use Google’s free services, and the ability to sync Chrome across all devices whether desktop or mobile is phenomenal. One word: integration. (Same reason I’m thrilled as a recent Android to iPhone convert.)

I’m less worried about Google’s spying in a browser/their apps than I am with MS at the OS level.

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AlexEiffel, Bobc

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Come Firefox 57, and the death of the vast majority of Firefox’s add-on ecosystem, I foresee a big drop in users.  At that point, not even privacy issues will keep users from migrating to either a fork or Chrome, from the reactions I’ve seen.  I know I’ll either use Waterfox or Pale Moon myself, as add-ons really were the only reason I stayed loyal to Mozilla, and I can’t get the same functionality with WebExtensions as I do with XUL based add-ons.  It is sad how many diehard fans have grown so alienated from Mozilla due to their actions, as everything that made Firefox truly unique was dropped in a failed attempt to emulate Chrome.

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Elly, SueW, Pim, Cybertooth

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I use Firefox primarily & then Chrome. Uninstalled IE from Win 7 64-bit Ultimate.

In upgrading to Malwarebytes 3 that has anti-exploit I and many others have encountered problems with Firefox 32 & 64bit where it leaves tasks in program manager. So it want open again until you kill those tasks. They say it’s Firefox’s implementation of ESET.

I did recently find a really cool add-on (Secure Bookmarks) for Chrome that password/encrypts my bookmarks which I really like. I created a folder called Mike and moved them all under it.

Anyway, I really like Firefox, but going forward it might be less feasible due to problems such as this in which program developers don’t want to devote a lot of resources and money to a less used browser.

Mike In Texas

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A note for Eric Petitt: stop messing around with the Firefox UI, stop breaking the add-ons that people rely on, and stop nagging users to update to a new version every 36 hours* — and then maybe you’ll stop losing users and maybe even start winning some of them back.

(*) I know, it’s “only” every six weeks. Exaggeration to make a point. And still about 6x too fast IMO. Ever heard of “update fatigue”, Mozilla? People want to get on with their work or fun and not have it repeatedly interrupted. Updates for even the hated IE are less onerous, they don’t get in my face and they rarely require a browser restart.

(BTW, Chrome does not and will not exist on any of my computers.)

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
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SueW, grayslady, wdburt1

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Wish Firefox would stop adding stuff like Hello, Pocket Reader+ webrtc Stuff I don’t need. I did remove all this junk but it is a pain, plus I had to disable webrtc because it can leak your dns if you are on a vpn. I am using Firefox 52.1.2 Esr when it time to move to Firefox 57 will most likely move to Waterfox or Pale Moon because of the death of the Firefox’s add-on ecosystem.

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When tech companies like M$ and Mozilla Firefox starts to ignore users’ preferences and demands, they tend to go downhill.

A few years ago, Firefox started becoming like a clone of Chrome (= “can’t beat them, join them”), eg a Chrome-like Theme appearance (= the Australis theme), removal of manual updates and removal of many other user configurations/preferences.
For Firefox 52, plug-in support was removed. For Firefox 57 at the end of 2017, the popular Firefox add-ons system will be replaced by the Chrome-like WebExtensions.

Until about a year ago, Firefox users could not access free or paid DRM-protected media contents, eg videos and music, because Mozilla stubbornly refused to submit to DRM-protection technology that was then already being widely adopted by Internet streaming websites, eg subscription-based Netflix and Spotify/Pandora, VOD, Pay-per-View sports matches(Floyd Mayweather Jr vs Manny Pacquiao title fight), etc.

If Firefox wanna be a clone of Chrome, users might as well use the real thing, ie Chrome.

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I use Firefox at my home desktop because it has the “restore last session” option that I use quite often. And I like it. Although, on my Android phone I use Chrome (too lazy to install anything else), at work it’s also Chrome (can’t install FF due to restrictions set by admin, Chrome installation pops up the window about admin password, but finishes without giving it), so I guess 80% of my browser usage is Chrome, even though I’m not a fan of it.

Then there’s my business Lumia that gets around 1% with its Edge :).

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Firefox’s problem is that they’re too concerned with Social issues rather than making a decent browser. I don’t care what they do in their spare time, what I do care about is a functioning application, and PaleMoon does just that.

If Firefox wants to make a comeback, they need to fix the memory leak problems, the bloat problems, the insane versioning scheme, make the UI look like it was meant for a computer and not a Comp Sci. UX University project, the constant breaking of extensions and themes, and shut the heck up about things that are not Firefox related because the average person just wants a browser, not a way of life / someone preaching to them.

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Cybertooth, SueW

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anonymous wrote:

If Firefox wants to make a comeback, they need to fix the memory leak problems, the bloat problems, the insane versioning scheme, make the UI look like it was meant for a computer and not a Comp Sci. UX University project, the constant breaking of extensions and themes, and shut the heck up about things that are not Firefox related because the average person just wants a browser, not a way of life / someone preaching to them.

Right on.

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“Google built [Chrome] to maximize revenue from your searches…To monetize every… single… click,” Petitt said.

This is EXACTLY why I do not use Chrome or any other Google products or services if I can avoid it.

Chrome, the browser that ate the world

Chrome is from Google, the company that is eating the world.

If and when people start to get concerned about their personal privacy, perhaps they will look to browsers other than Chrome.

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7 users thanked author for this post.

Microfix, Elly, Bill C., Charlie, BobbyB, SueW, grayslady

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Browser wars never end. Marketing fuels them.

Microsoft marketing has become obsessed with battery life over functionality in their attempt to lure users to Edge. Chrome talks up security and Mozilla has the Privacy bone. Most advanced users use several browsers for different reasons. Many users who have multiple browsers will use one browser for a single purpose, e.g. Online Banking. If the bank’s recommended security software works better with one browser over another, then a user will more likely go with it. Many users like Sanboxie to add an additional layer of security to their browsing and Firefox has been the prominent browser for this. Quality extensions determine which browser a user will use when accessing services or doing business online, so Chrome or Firefox will get the nod there.

Marketing types prefer hype over substance and not all users are aware of this, but those who are choose their browser(s) wisely. At least Chrome has substance behind their market bluster and that is probably why they are leading the pack right now. Mozilla does not sync its marketing, company strategy and development very well and that is why they are flailing with market share. They need to get their act together.

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AlexEiffel wrote:

Granted, a non power user might be annoyed if it is not easy to manage their bookmarks or even see them. But it shouldn’t be that hard to make a UI that enables you to do the quite basic stuff an UI is used for in a browser.

I have amassed two decades worth of bookmarks.  So I guess by default I’m a power user.  So I really like the way that Firefox lets you manage bookmarks.

I think that Google just wants to push you into using their web search engine, so they can gather clicks. “So what do you need bookmarks for, when you can Google?”  Right?

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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JohnW wrote:

Why leave Chrome for the new Opera?

I primarily use Firefox…customizable and intuitive, but on battery it uses significant resources.
I had Opera on laptops for battery saving features and was looking forward to their free built-in VPN…until the Chinese bought Opera. Uninstalled on all devices. The company that bought Opera may be the most user friendly and have the best intentions, but if the government tells them to do something contrary to the users interest…they will do it, or else, methinks.

1 user thanked author for this post.

AlexEiffel

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anonymous wrote:

f Firefox wants to make a comeback, they need to fix the memory leak problems, the bloat problems, the insane versioning scheme, make the UI look like it was meant for a computer and not a Comp Sci. UX University project, the constant breaking of extensions and themes,

I switched to Firefox ESR…which offers a stable UI..and is updated for security rather than cosmetic purposes…rarely breaks extensions, but might not be compatible with the latest versions of some extensions. Bottom line..it works the same over time and I don’t have to mess with it much.

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Elly, SueW

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In a few months that is not going to be the case, they’re dropping XPCOM from what I recall and that will render pretty much every extension incompatible.

ESR was great if you want stability with extensions for more than 5 minutes with their insane updating scheme. The UI has always been stable, but the changes are pure nonsense. Australis was something no one wanted and only hastened the death of the browser.

They need to go back to their roots and discover why so many people adopted Firefox back in the 1.0 days.

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Opera, uBlock origin (fanboys ultimate list), bam best browser.

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A few years down the road, when I can no longer use Win 7 for Email and Web surfing, I’ll most likely be using Linux for those things.  Right now Firefox works with the Linux Mint 17.3 Cinnamon I’m getting familiar with.  I like Firefox at present but if they drive me away I’ll have to go with whatever Linux supports.  I’m not sure if Chrome does Linux.  I think not since I never see it on the software download list.  I’m routing for Firefox to do things right but I guess I’ll just have to wait and see.  Never a dull moment anymore.

Being 20 something in the 70's was much more fun than being 70 something in the 20's.

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Try Opera. I use it with Xubuntu Linux. It works great.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 8.1 running in a VM

1 user thanked author for this post.

Charlie

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Check your linux distro’s repositories for Chromium, open-source version of Chrome. It’s still Google though.

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MrToad28 wrote:

JohnW wrote:

Why leave Chrome for the new Opera?

I primarily use Firefox…customizable and intuitive, but on battery it uses significant resources. I had Opera on laptops for battery saving features and was looking forward to their free built-in VPN…until the Chinese bought Opera. Uninstalled on all devices. The company that bought Opera may be the most user friendly and have the best intentions, but if the government tells them to do something contrary to the users interest…they will do it, or else, methinks.

The Chinese company bought the Opera browser, but the SurfEasy VPN stayed with the former owners.

You can download and use the SurfEasy VPN client and all of your network traffic will route through the VPN, not just your browsers.  https://www.surfeasy.com/

SurfEasy offers a free plan that starts at 500MB/month, but they upgrade you to 1GB if you register with an email address.  They also offer a few other incentives to get more free bandwidth as well, such as refer a friend, like on social media, etc.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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JohnW, I can respect anyone who desires to use a VPN for whatever needs they have. And I was not aware this product did not go to the Chinese purchaser.

But I am a little confused. Are not incentives like these described pretty well defeating the purpose of a VPN? If you use a VPN, and log on to accounts, or follow friends, or perform any of these other actions you establish a chain.

And if I understand things correctly, that chain can be used, by any entity that exerts enough effort, to track not only your travels on the interwebnets, but those using the service along side you at the time, if their packets travel with yours. Impossible to an individual, probably. But to agencies with the computing power and database required, it may be a simple thing. Especially if they are the ones who built the roadway in the first place.

Anonymity starts in the chair, and gets weaker from there. Security in its truest form is nearly impossible, most of it is theatre, and inconvenient drama even then. Balance risk and breathe easy.

Whether you feel this possibility is a good or bad thing is an entirely different subject.

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Cascadian wrote:

JohnW, I can respect anyone who desires to use a VPN for whatever needs they have. And I was not aware this product did not go to the Chinese purchaser. But I am a little confused. Are not incentives like these described pretty well defeating the purpose of a VPN? If you use a VPN, and log on to accounts, or follow friends, or perform any of these other actions you establish a chain. And if I understand things correctly, that chain can be used, by any entity that exerts enough effort, to track not only your travels on the interwebnets, but those using the service along side you at the time, if their packets travel with yours. Impossible to an individual, probably. But to agencies with the computing power and database required, it may be a simple thing. Especially if they are the ones who built the roadway in the first place. Anonymity starts in the chair, and gets weaker from there. Security in its truest form is nearly impossible, most of it is theatre, and inconvenient drama even then. Balance risk and breathe easy. Whether you feel this possibility is a good or bad thing is an entirely different subject.

To be completely clear, I have not followed this company on social media.  All I gave them was an email address.  1GB is enough for me.  Works great!

I only set this VPN up to have something secure to connect thru if I need to get online at a public hotspot.  Or I can always use a few MB’s from home if I am doing something I would rather my ISP not know about.  But for the most part I use HTTPS and use a public DNS server, so my ISP can only log the IP addresses that I connect with.

So I really don’t feel compelled to use a VPN on my home network full-time.

I believe the recent ruckus about VPNs was because of the new laws that allow your ISP sell your surfing info.  So trying to remain totally anonymous is not the goal of the average person.  Most would probably just rather keep their ISP from selling their surfing habits.  So social media is not likely a huge factor here.  But in general, if privacy is a concern, one shouldn’t stay logged into social accounts except when actually using them.

But to your other point, remaining completely anonymous on the internet is not my goal.  It is a very tricky business to achieve anonymity, requiring a lot of discipline and creation of a completely new identity.  Like in a witness protection plan, you must never use any accounts from one identity on the other side of the VPN.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

2 users thanked author for this post.

Bill C., Cascadian

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Yeah, maybe my Tin Foil Hat chaffed a bit. I thought the incentive program was pretty ironic. Hope you were not bothered.

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Charlie wrote:

A few years down the road, when I can no longer use Win 7 for Email and Web surfing, I’ll most likely be using Linux for those things. Right now Firefox works with the Linux Mint 17.3 Cinnamon I’m getting familiar with. I like Firefox at present but if they drive me away I’ll have to go with whatever Linux supports. I’m not sure if Chrome does Linux. I think not since I never see it on the software download list. I’m routing for Firefox to do things right but I guess I’ll just have to wait and see. Never a dull moment anymore.

Both Chrome and Chromium are available for Linux, but Chrome is only for 64-bit.  Google dropped 32-bit Chrome for Linux.  http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/01/google-chrome-linux-32-bit-discontinued

Some distros ship with Chromium, which is the open-source version without any proprietary software included.

But you can add Chrome if you wish, as long as you are running a 64-bit Linux OS, just visit the user area for your distro to learn how to get the package you need.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

1 user thanked author for this post.

Charlie

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Thanks for the info.  Right now I’m running the 32 bit version on an older laptop, but that will probably change eventually.  I’m thinking to update to version 18.  It’s good to know there are other compatible browsers available.

Being 20 something in the 70's was much more fun than being 70 something in the 20's.

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Cascadian wrote:

Yeah, maybe my Tin Foil Hat chaffed a bit. I thought the incentive program was pretty ironic. Hope you were not bothered.

Not bothered a bit.  I just wanted to clarify.  And I still think this is a great deal!  Can’t beat the price!  And you can even use any browser you wish!  🙂

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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Interesting to see Gregg’s article today on browser market share, with Firefox at 12% in May. Chrome came in at nearly 60%.

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So… I’m the only IE 11 fan boy here?

I use deep-nested bookmarks and run 99% of my websurfing through these. Must have tried all browsers and by far prefer the handling of bookmarks with IE 11… speedwise I find it’s blistering fast.

On this stupid %&#% android tablet I’m typing this on, it’s ended up with chrome. Least bad of the bunch…

On upcoming Linux, Vivaldi has my attention?

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No, you are not the only one.
NC also prefers IE11.

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North Carolina?

Non competents?

Nut crunchs?

Not connected?

Bummer! I give up! 😛

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Noel Carboni

2 users thanked author for this post.

Jan K., SueW

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Smart guy! 😀

Sorry for being slow and thick.

But if ch100 wasn’t such a cheapskate with his typing, he could though have replaced the C with an o and added an e and a l… okay, it may be two extra keypresses, but for sure would have saved me some!

Have a nice weekend!

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Jan K. wrote:

So… I’m the only IE 11 fan boy here?

I use IE 11 almost exclusively. Since I crawled out of the Twitter and Facebook sewers quite some time ago, I spend most of my time reading RSS feeds: blogs, news, sports … you name it, and no other RSS reader is as simple, elegant, and user friendly as the one baked right into IE, and I’ve tried many, many others. I feel it in my bones, though, that IE’s days are numbered. Microsoft wants everyone to use their c****y new smartphone App, Edge — even on our desktops and laptops. I think MS is crippling IE 11 on WIN 10 in their attempt to get us to switch. I’ve noticed a marked increase in freezes and crashes on all three of my computers since Edge came along, especially when reading RSS news feeds — imagine that! 🙁

 

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I switch between Firefox and Opera:

* I use Firefox with the NoScript extension. It’s really cool to see all of the scripts being blocked by NoScript, scripts with creepy-sounding URLs, such as googleapis.com. I can see what a particular website is trying to run, and be confident that junk I don’t want running is prevented from running. There are websites which require me to allow at least some of this junk to run, and I’m not willing to do that, so I avoid those sites.

* I use Opera with ad-blocking turned on. If there is a must-have site which won’t run within the restrictions I have set up on Firefox, I use Opera. My wife always uses Opera, because she doesn’t want to fool with all of the extra work involved in getting Firefox to successfully load those web pages I haven’t yet vetted. Opera is faster than other browsers, and it is blocking ads, so Opera is an acceptable browser for me.

I was happy to see that the NoScript Security Suite people are working on getting their stuff to work under the new rules that Firefox has set up. NoScript is my most important browser add-in by far; and if it isn’t available in Firefox, I won’t have any reason to continue with Firefox.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 8.1 running in a VM

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After many years of relying on NoScript with Firefox, I stopped using it.

Why?  Nothing wrong with it, but because of the discussions regarding the changes Mozilla planned for Firefox extension support, I started looking around for alternatives.

So I found uMatrix.  https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/umatrix/

Also available for Chrome and Opera!

Point & click to forbid/allow any class of requests made by your browser. Use it to block scripts, iframes, ads, facebook, etc.

See ALL the remote connections, failed or attempted, depending on whether they were blocked or allowed (you decide).

type of requests (top row)
* cookies
* CSS-related resources (stylesheets and web fonts)
* images
* plugins
* scripts
* XHR (requests made by scripts)
* frames
* others

After climbing a slight learning curve to understand the concept of uMatrix, I find it much simpler to understand than NoScript, for visually showing what scripts or plugins are breaking a site, preventing it from  rendering correctly.

The basic premise of uMatrix is to allow all 1st party HTML, CSS, images, and scripts by default, and block everything else.  So you get a basic page rendered out of the box, with all 3rd party elements blocked by default.

The matrix view lets you easily see all the other page elements, which you can choose to allow on a site by site basis, either temporarily, or permanently.  The cool thing is that by allowing a 3rd party script to run from one site, it does not grant global permission for all sites to run that script.

Plus it comes with built-in blacklists that automatically update.  Covers malware domains, as well as ad and tracking server lists.

The extension comes with 3rd-party hosts files totaling over 62,000 distinct hostnames (lists can be selectively disabled/enabled according to your choice).

Highly recommended.  Especially for advanced users, such as those that can adapt to NoScript.  I now spend a lot less time fiddling around to fix a broken site with this extension, compared to NoScript.

The same developer has created the uBlock Origin extension (like Adblock Plus on steroids), which is better for the average user, without the advanced controls of uMatrix.  It does have an advanced mode, but not the same detailed control.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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AlexEiffel, MrJimPhelps, Elly, MrBrian

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I’m a Firefox user. A few months ago I replaced NoScript, Ghostery, and Adblock Plus with uBlock Origin (using “advanced user” mode for more control).

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AlexEiffel, JohnW, Elly

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@JohnW ,

Thank you very much for the info on uMatrix.

Just installed the uMatrix add-on to my Firefox 52 ESR. Do I need to uninstall Adblock Plus.?

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Don’t think an uninstall is necessary, as they shouldn’t conflict.  There is a chance for some duplication, so check for overlaps in your filter lists.

Regardless of whatever else you do, I would replace Adblock Plus with uBlock Origin.   I use uBlock O and uMatrix together without any issues.  That gives me more control over filters.  I generally keep the malware hosts files enabled in uMatrix, along with the script blocking, and use uBlock O as my ad blocker.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-origin/?src=search

It contains the same ad filter lists as the defaults  in Adblock Plus, but also many more you can enable.

“Flexible, it’s more than an “ad blocker”: it can also read and create filters from hosts files.

Out of the box, these lists of filters are loaded and enforced:

– EasyList
– Peter Lowe’s Ad server list
– EasyPrivacy
– Malware domains

More lists are available for you to select if you wish:

– Fanboy’s Enhanced Tracking List
– Dan Pollock’s hosts file
– hpHosts’s Ad and tracking servers
– MVPS HOSTS
– Spam404
– And many others

Of course, the more filters enabled, the higher the memory footprint. Yet, even after adding Fanboy’s two extra lists, hpHosts’s Ad and tracking servers, uBlock Origin still has a lower memory footprint than other very popular blockers out there.

Also, be aware that selecting some of these extra lists may lead to higher likelihood of web site breakage — especially those lists which are normally used as hosts file.”

Overall, the dev has done a great job with both of these!!!

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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AlexEiffel, MrJimPhelps

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For those of you complaining about Firefox being like Chrome, have you checked out Firefox 57? They stole Chrome’s menu now, too. Gone is one decent innovation, the touch friendly, fully customizable dropdown menu. It is literally a copy of the Chrome drop down menu.

I also learned that the new WebExtensions can’t do something as simple as tweak about:config settings. They full out lied about providing any API that the developers needed.

They do have a new UI, returning back to boxy tabs. Just realize that Tab Mix Plus is gone. They’re running a donation drive to try and get the funds to just start porting over to WebExtensions. Because it’s only recently that WebExtensions have been even close to ready.

Because Mozilla is rushing this so badly. Their own idea and they can’t even do that right.

I have a Linux computer that uses Firefox because Chrome overheats it for some reason. But I will be getting a new computer rather than installing Firefox 61. (Plus I hate having to run a shim to get audio to work. Because they dropped ALSA support: you know, basic Linux sound.)  I’ve already been using Chrome on my Windows computer, because I knew the WebExtensions thing was going to be bad, since literally no Chrome addons were ready to run on it.

It just makes me so angry how much they don’t listen at all. They’ve been getting worse and worse, but it’s always “full sail ahead!” While still trying to copy Chrome instead of actually standing out as something different and better.

I’ve never went from a company I supported so much to hating them so much. I honestly am hoping for them to fail. I’d rather be with a browser that doesn’t lie.

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There is always Sea Monkey… 🙂

https://www.seamonkey-project.org/releases/

About SeaMonkey

The SeaMonkey project is a community effort to develop the SeaMonkey all-in-one internet application suite. Such a software suite was previously made popular by Netscape and Mozilla, and the SeaMonkey project continues to develop and deliver high-quality updates as well as new features and improvements to this concept. Containing an Internet browser, email & newsgroup client, HTML editor, IRC chat and web development tools, SeaMonkey is sure to appeal to advanced users, web developers and corporate users.

powered by Mozilla
SeaMonkey is built on the open source Mozilla Gecko engine, the same code which underlies the highly successful siblings Firefox and Thunderbird. SeaMonkey benefits from the cross-fertilization with these other projects, by gaining (and contributing) new features and the ongoing security updates which are a modern necessity. The Mozilla Foundation provides hosting and legal backing for the SeaMonkey Project.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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I have been using a PC since Autumn ’97; I’m liberal arts, not IT; Since back in the days when it came out that Jim Alchin of M$ apparently memo’ed Gates that in the next version of Windows, it would be a “jarring experience” to run Netscape.

…..

I have consistently used Netscape/FF and for awhile Opera, and I will never use IE unless some other program, or a job/ employer, requires it.  I’m now semi-retired and using IE just never happens anymore.

…..

I suppose I will educate myself about telemetry (I certainly had to do so, using M$), and shut off every option I can find on FF.  But I will probably wind up continuing to use FF.  Why?  As people say here in TX and elsewhere, you “…dance with the person who brung you.”   Netscape / FF faced a rapacious monopolist, and they have continued to innovate, produce, and preserve some truly *free* choice for Net users.  The basic idea of Nscape/FF — not being bolted onto absolutely every other darned thing inside your PC — I believe helps safety/security; they seem like they not only *try* to adhere to standards (unlike some other OS company I can think of), but they often set the standard, both in technicalities and in user operation/ interface.

…..

Did I say I’m fond of Firefox?  Yes, I am.  A sincere thank you, to that wily Fox, and the unusual Sea Monkey, and that sail-through-the-air Thunderbird.  I can’t imagine the Net, for me, without all three.

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AlexEiffel

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