No, Microsoft hasn’t issued a “Windows 10 update warning”

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Fool me once, shame on you. This time the shame’s on me. I click through on clickbaity things from time to time, and I decided to see if the breathles
[See the full post at: No, Microsoft hasn’t issued a “Windows 10 update warning”]

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lmacri, Pepsiboy, Elly, geekdom

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woody wrote:

Here’s the fact. The “optional, non-security, C/D Week” patch for Win10 version 1903 and 1909, KB 4535996, has a bunch of problems.

This is just me, and you can certainly ignore it, but I take issue with statements like this one.  I installed KB4535996 on 2/27/2020 and have yet to encounter one single problem with the update.  Not. One. Single. Problem.

That’s 11 days of completely normal everyday use, running Excel, Outlook, Word, some of my utilities, etc. etc.  No problems.  “The fact” is that “it has been reported” to cause problems “for some installations”.  If it “has a bunch of problems”, why am I not seeing even one?  Across five not-identical installations?

woody wrote:

Neither Susan nor I ever, ever, ever recommend that you install the monthly optional updates. There’s too much downside, and almost no upside. This is a case in point.

That’s another statement with which I take issue, and again feel free to ignore it.  I am my own “expert” in all matters Windows.  For decades I have used it, abused it, modified it, cut it apart and put it back together to my own inclinations, and through it all, I have kept Windows fully updated.  I learned very early on to rely on drive imaging to save my bacon, and remain steadfast in my dedication to making regular drive images of all my system drives.  With a good drive imaging regimen, there’s no real downside; a pooched system is easy to restore.

This is the only issue I’ve ever encountered with Windows Update, and I repaired it with a drive image.  That was almost five years ago.  I click Check for updates every day, and install whatever Microsoft offers.  I’m still looking for problem updates, but not finding any since the one I linked.

And again, for the record, I’m a home user with a home network, not an IT Pro riding heard on a SOHO, but from what I’ve seen here on AskWoody, I’m not alone in being free from update-caused issues.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do. We don't all have to do the same things.

Computer Specs

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Fred

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I understand your sentiments and am not disagreeing with you. In your use case, that seems reasonable.

Susan and Woody are addressing a different audience, however. Sue leans toward the SMB/Enterprise side of things and Woody tries to straddle the fence with home users (very difficult).

In a corporate environment, a bad patch can wreak havoc (lost productivity, downtime, etc). Restoration to a previous state is not that simple if you’re managing 10,000 computers for example. Poor risk assessment can impact the bottom line. This is true for SMB, home office environments and road warriors as well (time is money).

On the consumer side, there are many people who don’t have a proper disaster recovery plan in place. Most of us here can tell a tale or two about calls from distressed family and friends.

Anecdotal evidence should always be viewed in context.

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woody

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Carl wrote:

In a corporate environment, a bad patch can wreak havoc (lost productivity, downtime, etc).

I try to emphasize in every reply that I post of this nature that I am not speaking to/of IT Pros.  I reiterate that I am a home user with a home network.

I am well aware of the makeup of Susan’s audience, as well as of Woody’s audience.

Carl wrote:

On the consumer side, there are many people who don’t have a proper disaster recovery plan in place. Most of us here can tell a tale or two about calls from distressed family and friends.

Of this I am also well aware, hence my continued emphasis on how important it is to have a proper disaster recovery plan in place.  It’s in the first line of my signature in bold red.  I also emphasize the importance of disaster recovery preparedness on my own web site.

Carl wrote:

Anecdotal evidence should always be viewed in context.

Indeed, which, for me, is to say that, “Here’s the fact. The “optional, non-security, C/D Week” patch for Win10 version 1903 and 1909, KB 4535996, has a bunch of problems.”  is not being placed in proper context.

Are tens of thousands, millions, even, of home users (Woody’s audience) experiencing “a bunch of problems” with KB4545996?  I must say that I cannot find evidence on the internet that this is the case.

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do. We don't all have to do the same things.

Computer Specs

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woody

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As I’ve mentioned quite a few times, we have no way of knowing how many people are getting bit by the problems. Only Microsoft knows, and they aren’t saying.

But if you’re trying to sign a Visual Studio project, the incident rate is 100%. 🙂

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Elly

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They broke signtool.exe, which is an essential tool for Windows development. It doesn’t get much worse than that.

running Excel, Outlook, Word, some of my utilities, etc. etc

If you run typical software like this, it would be much more shocking if they broke any of it.

What you don’t run is also important. You’ve mentioned numerous times that you don’t use the start menu and replace it with third party software.

Well guess what, of the components of Windows 10 used by a typical user, the start menu is by far the most likely to break. You can avoid all of its buggy behavior by not using it.

There are also performance bugs/regressions like slowdowns, latency that exist and may be widespread, but most users don’t notice or care. See for example a blog post by Google performance expert Bruce Dawson that deals with major latency occurring when you simple right click on a task.

The BleepingComputer article mentions an issue like this that I think most users would not notice.

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EstherD, Carl

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anonymous wrote:

running Excel, Outlook, Word, some of my utilities, etc. etc If you run typical software like this, it would be much more shocking if they broke any of it.

But it didn’t break any of it; kinda my point.

anonymous wrote:

What you don’t run is also important. You’ve mentioned numerous times that you don’t use the start menu and replace it with third party software. Well guess what, of the components of Windows 10 used by a typical user, the start menu is by far the most likely to break.

I don’t access my NAS directly very much, it has the Windows Start Menu, and it, “by far the most likely to break”, isn’t broken, either.

anonymous wrote:

There are also performance bugs/regressions like slowdowns, latency that exist and may be widespread

I have no such performance issues.  No latency issues, no right-click (which I use a lot) slowdowns, nothing of the sort.  The only coding I do these days is in CSS and HTML.  They still work just fine.

My point is that overstating the case doesn’t really serve any of Woody’s audience.  The few reports from a few techy sites/blogs simply doesn’t hold up against an internet-wide search concerning KB4545996 and does not bear out any widespread “bunch of problems”; it mainly turns up those same techy sites/blogs.

As for the signtool.exe problem, every incident I found related to that had already been solved by either uninstalling the update or restoring a drive image, which is the other part of my point.  “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”  What is a pound of prevention worth?

Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do. We don't all have to do the same things.

Computer Specs

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My biggest challenge in a corporate environment is the three words “ever since you.”  Once I hear those three words, I already know what’s coming next.  Someone’s having a problem, and instead of just telling me what the problem is, they go junior sleuth and start looking for “what changed.”

Now ordinarily that’s exactly the correct approach, but it must be part of a holistic approach, not the first and last question you ask.

Some examples:

“Ever since you updated the server to 2019 it’s been slow” – the problem was a corrupt VHDX file caused by the image backup software glitching earlier in the week.  Had I taken it at face value I might never have solved the problem.  It was just as slow before the update, but nothing “changed” from the customer perspective, so they didn’t report it.

“Ever since the windows update I can’t log onto our corporate website” – the problem was someone in the support department disabling that logon.  Had I taken it at face value I’d have spent days trying to troubleshoot, rolling back the update, etc.

“Ever since you replaced the switch my app won’t connect” – the problem was a DNS change that had gone unnoticed until the system was rebooted and grabbed the new IP.  Had I taken it at face value … well, you know the drill.

In my experience Windows updates generally break under the following, very common condition:  a “power user” in the organization uses third-party tools, or goes to website and enable registry hacks, to change the behavior of Windows in a way it’s not designed to do.  A good example is Microsoft eliminating the ability to disable web search from within the OS.  You can still do it with a registry key edit, but since MS took the ability away, the conclusion is the function is either changing or on its way to deprecation.  In either case, the next Windows update may have the changed code, and now that “clever” registry edit is the cause of a malfunction or worse.

Best practice:  deploy clean, have clean and regular images, DON’T use registry edits or third-party power tools, DO use group policy for those changes where necessary, DO keep group policy files up to date.

Above all, never forget that these days, every app on your PC is phoning home for updates.  Cumulative updates from MS can be working fine until the antivirus vendor you use, who until then was using cute tricks, suddenly slows your PC to a halt when those tricks are no longer possible.  It might not be the update that breaks you, even if the update is what catalyzed the failure.

 

P.S. – I have had bad updates before, I won’t say it doesn’t happen.  Backups are king.  Rule of thumb – if your data isn’t backed up, you have no data.

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warrenrumak, EstherD

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[doriel]

Well said, sir. I agree with your point of view and thaks fot that exmaples – they are from real life.
You wont believe how often I repaired “internet issue” just by plugging in the cable 🙂
There are very lot of dependecies that just people do not realize.

But what I do not understand is the cadence, that Micorsoft voluntarily came up with. There is just no need to update two times per month except Windows defender. I agree with woody, that for enterprise users its just too much risk to patch so often. Cause (and I dont blame MS neither users) there are just myriads of HW setups and SW equipment.

Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

PRUSA i3 MK3S+

• This reply was modified 3 years ago by doriel. Reason: oh grammar

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Cybertooth

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UPDATE: Mayank Parmar has published a new summary of the known problems in Windows Latest.

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Elly, r1ma

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Thanks Woody, as Mayank Parmar mentioned, there is “File Explorer or the desktop and taskbar crashes without warning.” I do have it since I moved to 1909.

 

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woody

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Did you install the “optional, non-security” patch?

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If Microsoft would be smart, they would slow down the rate of updates and upgrades. In the present situation it’s just asking for troubles to keep pumping these out. Also, if this covid-outbreak gets worse, computer users want stable computers. Not buggy ones after equally buggy updates.

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doriel

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I find comments like this to be curious.  If Microsoft (or customers) have identified bugs with Windows 10, and Microsoft fixes them, why have those bug fixes sit around for 6, 12, or more months?  Why not ship them ASAP?

Like, how would you justify that to a customer who is getting daily blue-screens because of a bug?  “No, sorry Mr. Paying Customer, we can’t give you this fix because some guy named ‘R’ on the AskWoody forums thinks we’re going too fast.”   …. ???

This is why Microsoft has switched to a model where they get bug fixes out to everybody in a more timely fashion.  The old model where they would issue hotfixes to specific people created tons of problems.  For example, I had Microsoft fix a bug I was having with XP SP2, and they gave me a specially crafted hotfix…. but that fix didn’t make its way to XP Sp3 so I was S-O-L.  And then the hotfix eventually failed because a later patch to XP SP2 stomped all over it.

If you haven’t been through that experience (and, I grant, most people haven’t) then you don’t have a basis for understanding how Microsoft could justify replacing the old Service Pack idea with the system we have today.

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b

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Quote

The old model where they would issue hotfixes to specific people created tons of problems

End Quote

Yet this might be the best way to fix that problem. If someone has an Epson Printer that has stopped working after an update, It is possible that this bug effect only that printer and others do not need a fix that does not apply to them. It when MS changes major thing like how they treat early startup items that the Antivirus use that then most need the fix. The question becomes  user B which does not have the problem that user A has but has exactly the same software and hardware, and why User B is not having user A bug.

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It’s all about choices. Why is it not possible so set an option to receive ONLY security updates? It’s always all or nothing and frankly: I am not interested at all in the whole circus of little extra’s that I’ll never use anyway. An operating system should be a platform, or even better: a service for MY software to run on. Nothing more, nothing less. Windows 10 became bloatware with way too many internal and obligatory software. Not un-installable too, which makes the necessary package of updates even bigger. All these non-essential non-security updates lead to a nasty and unpleasant user experience. And because of the huge complexity of Windows and all its obligatory ‘collateral damage’ updating becomes a monthly matter of hit and miss. Not even to mention to big upgrades that lately really are not worth installing. A slowdown in upgrading would really be not that bad. Focus on the core functionality again.

Personally, I switched to a Mac a few years ago. This, after a difficult year with crashing production machines time and time again after bodged Windows 10 updates. The first few months after the introduction I accepted some bugs, but not the many blue screens and loss of data. After struggling 1.5 years more, I gave up. Windows 10 became unworkable for me. Maybe others have more luck, and I am happy for these people. Enjoy what works best for you of course. I was a relatively happy Windows user until Windows 10 appeared. That was the moment Microsoft took away my control over my computers. Right now, I have a Win 10 laptop and pc, both slowly aging. They will not be replaced by other Windows machines in the future. For more hobby-related stuff I’ll probably switch to Linux Mint. For work, I stay with macOS. Sadly enough, albeit Apple has a much lower update frequency than Microsoft, I still get the creeps when an update appear even on this Mac. Bad experiences with 10 and countless sleepless nights will probably haunt me for the rest of my life…

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[doriel]

Good point @warrenrumak, but it seems to me, that lot of updates are just icing on the cake. I mean they change layout to look better – new icon set, new calculator, new searchbox, new notification system,…

Fundamentals remain (same old file properties dialog with that ridiculously small windows for user rights since 95? Driver installation dialogs from windows 98) – new look and new functions are just for “basic” users to cover inside, fundamentals are not touched for a long time which I find pity.

I mean, they did a good piece of work on Windows 10 and it is quite stable for me, but I HAVE seen numerous computers stuck in the infinite loops of updating, computers that cant update because of some mysterious error, some didnt make the update from Win7 at all, just because they had no SSD, and others.

No need to be sceptic at the end, these errors are like 5% or less. Thats not bad at all, but other systems may do better. By the way I really like Widows Defender. Finally we dont need to pay extra money, AV SW has became more like advertising tool these days – scaring people to force them to pay – this should be not allowed.

Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

PRUSA i3 MK3S+

• This reply was modified 3 years ago by doriel.

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Window 10 Pro ( 1903 ) … Group A

I’m going to assume that KB4535996 is a group B patch. After checking with winshowhide, the only update I have showing is a cumulative patch for .Net. Can someone confirm this ?

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Windows 10 don’t have “security only” patches, like Windows 7 & 8.1. Therefore, by the very nature, Group A & B is not relevant to Windows 10.

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I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve seen Forbes recycle that “Warning issued to billions of Windows users” headline, in various forms. Recently I saw it twice in less than a 24-hour period. I guess it gets clicks, or they wouldn’t keep doing it.

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