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  • Patch Lady – what things about patching annoy you?

    Posted on Susan Bradley Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    Home Forums AskWoody blog Patch Lady – what things about patching annoy you?

    This topic contains 49 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  rc primak 3 weeks, 3 days ago.

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    • #1876753 Reply

      Susan Bradley
      AskWoody MVP

      What annoys me is Windows will grab the focus with some message that I don’t realize until it’s too late Windows will not see that uploading a video t
      [See the full post at: Patch Lady – what things about patching annoy you?]

      Susan Bradley Patch Lady

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1876779 Reply

      Ascaris
      AskWoody_MVP

      Windows will not see that uploading a video to a file sharing site it not active use of a system and thus will reboot right as I’m trying to upload a video (can you tell I hit this tonight?)

      That kind of ties in with the previous post I made about automation not knowing as much as the user.  Even if my computer appears to be idle, I could still be using it.  Perhaps I am waiting for an important email that is expected any minute.  Perhaps I am doing something else, but still waiting for the PC to remind me of something at a certain time.

      Really, the “AI” used to determine when the PC is idle has no idea what my intentions and expectations are, which is why it should wait until I tell it to do anything.  I know when I have time for an update, and it doesn’t take setting all kinds of rules and such to prevent updates during certain times of day or when I am on certain kinds of internet connections, or playing games with deferral settings and options that vanish and “seekers” and other assorted silliness.  This needlessly complicates updating, and at the same time, still usurps far too much control from the user.

      The bottom line for me is that nothing less than total control over updates (like I had with Windows 7 and 8.1) will do.  Notify me that an update is available, and I will take it under advisement.  No further notification or action on the part of the PC is required or tolerated.  Once I am made aware of the update, the update program’s job is done until I initiate action to start that update.

      Of all of the things I dislike about Windows 10, the update system is probably the single worst.

      Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.4).

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1876802 Reply

      Fred
      AskWoody Lounger

      It’s costing toooo much time and effort for something that ought to be so simple.
      Puters are just a tool to get things done;
      This way the “IT-Industry” only creates new earning-models by cheating and pushing people.
      I was in IT before Windows sub-zero, and it never was so ugly and bad;  *yak*

    • #1876843 Reply

      anonymous

      What annoys me is having to reboot. I have a very fast PC, so installing updates usually takes less than 10 minutes, but if it’s on an old laptop, or under powered desktop, then it takes FOREVER! And if it’s a clean install of Windows 7 or 8.1, then you had better not have any plans.

      And also the bugs in the updates. But to be fair buggy updates aren’t something that’s exclusive to Microsoft. It can happen in any software, but it is still annoying.

    • #1876860 Reply

      anonymous

      Not having full control, end of. Even on 7, as we used to, having patches separately and being able to pick and choose. What 10 does is so intolerable I won’t even discuss. Wth, forcing people to patch, installing if you just check, rebooting on its own, forcing to install other stuff if you just want security, forcing feature updates / version changes? How do you rank that in annoyance when it’s all 100% intolerable under any circumstances?

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1876866 Reply

      mn–
      AskWoody Lounger

      Is this a generic question or specific to Windows?

      • It does annoy me that with mainstream operating systems and even most non-mainstream ones it’s just not even theoretically possible to both keep reasonably current with patches AND have properly tested and verified everything before deployment to production use.

        And that really is pretty much by definition if you’d want to run stability tests.

        It’s worse when patches aren’t apparently tested much before release, as seems to be the case on Windows for example.

      • Another annoyance that is very common but not universal is that there’s usually no way to check what’s in a patch, and even attempting to check may be forbidden in the EULA. This is one part where open source has a clear advantage, those you can check… in theory, given enough time… which you never get, but might manage spot inspections occasionally.

      … yeah, those are the major ones that aren’t specific to any one product family or…

      I’d also have a whole bunch of product-specific patching annoyances for Windows, various kinds of Linux, various kinds of Unix(r), and… but that’d get tedious quickly.

      (Oh hey, the list tags get handled in a funny way in this thing even when the tags are consistent. Is that intentional or should it be considered a bug?)

      • This reply was modified 4 weeks, 1 day ago by  mn--. Reason: formatting
    • #1876877 Reply

      Microfix
      Da Boss

      With personal files being overwritten due to an inplace feature upgrade to 1809 put me right off W10. The framework of W10 patching leaves a lot to be desired and is nothing short of a Total Inability To Sustain Update Patches with patch fixes for patches.

      The July 2019 Security Only patches with telemetry baked in for W7 and W8.1 has now put Group B patching in amoungst Group A !! /facepalm

      I’m finding patching a ch/bore nowadays, when years gone by I could rely on a single patch fixing something that was broken in order to use a program/utility or game. With these 500mb rollups, it’s a lottery..

      ********** Win7 x64/x86 | Win8.1 x64 | Linux Hybrids x64 **********

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1876891 Reply

      abbodi86
      AskWoody_MVP

      I actually was hit by annoy 1 last tuesday:D

      i was editing a text file and already initiated Windows 8.1 update in the background
      when it finish and ready to restart, WU window become active focus and i hit “Enter” button unaware of that moment and the system restarted

      the Office msi updates parts is also buzz killer, since it take much space under C:\Windows\Installer
      but there are a powershell script that can cleanly remove “orphaned” superseded msi patches, if anyone is interested

      • #1876912 Reply

        anonymous

        there are a powershell script that can cleanly remove “orphaned” superseded msi patches, if anyone is interested

        Yes this script would be very useful! Could you post the script or a link?

        • #1877115 Reply

          abbodi86
          AskWoody_MVP

          It is actually vbs script
          https://pastebin.com/DWvsRu3p

          you must run it with cscript

          cscript msi_startcomponentcleanup.vbs

          to remove some permanent patches add /f parameter

          cscript msi_startcomponentcleanup.vbs /f

          • #1877201 Reply

            anonymous

            Many thanks 🙂

    • #1876908 Reply

      CADesertRat
      AskWoody Plus

      My biggest beef is with the direction of MS with WAAS when they decided to get rid of all the testing staff and make it’s user’s the Beta testers. Every month it’s a crapshoot as to what’s going to be screwed up, and (possibly) make your computer unusable due to Feature/Cumulative/ etc. updates. Thank God for Woody, Susan, et al for giving us the knowledge to at least hold off on the updates that seem to constantly have problems. It never used to be this bad.

      Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
      4 Win 10 Pro currently 1809 (3 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1876916 Reply

      anonymous

      What massively grinds my gears is that I’m working away in a document, blasting along at a good clip as I’m creating material, and suddenly Microsoft pops up a update box that immediately grabs the focus, ignores everything but the next “ENTER” key press, snag that as an acceptance click, immediately disappear the update box , and then immediately start the update.  So I’m forced to pull the plug on the machine and reboot from my USB boot image to undo the borked update.  And lose whatever text I’ve entered since the last time I saved (or if I’m lucky, since an autosave a couple minutes before.)

      Under the current schema, Microsoft is counting that its userbase does not have a typing speed greater than 1 character per second if they want to be able to choose to accept or delay the update kicking off.  Before it kicks off an upgrade, instead of a single mouse click or ENTER keystroke, it needs to require the user type in an entire non-frequently used word or phrase before deciding “Huh-yuck.  Wilbur wants this update now, huh-yuck.”

      Given the continued bugginess of these upgrades, my suggestion for the phrase to be typed in denoting willingness to upgrade is “kill me now, Satya”

      No, I’m not a satisfied user of Windows.  I’m a grudgingly-accepting-of-the-abuse user of Windows.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1876923 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      “1. Windows will grab the focus with some message that I don’t realize until it’s too late.”

      I have never had that experience.  I have my “active hours” set for 6:00 AM to 12:00 AM and while Windows Update may download a patch(s) in the background, it never grabs focus.  I never power off, just sign out, so any restart for an update will take place while I’m asleep, and I’m undisturbed by it.

      “2. Windows will not see that uploading a video to a file sharing site it not active use of a system and thus will reboot right as I’m trying to upload a video (can you tell I hit this tonight?)”

      Same as above.  I’ve never experienced any interruption to my daily activities during my active hours due to Windows Update.

      As for 3 – 5, I haven’t had any updates pooch my system, so I haven’t had to uninstall any updates.  But if that were to happen, I would restore my most recent OS drive image instead, and that only takes ~6 minutes.

      My Dell Latitude E5420 was built in 2011.  The motherboard and CPU in my daily driver desktop and my NAS are 2013 vintage, ancient in tech years.  On the other hand, I bought my son an Alienware gaming rig earlier this year (Windows 10 Pro), and he doesn’t have any issues with Windows Update, either; never had an online multi-player game interrupted.

      The only issue I might have anywhere close to those you listed come up because I dual boot, and on occasion, when I’m wanting to reboot to the other side, when I click on Start, I’ll get the option “Upgrade and shutdown” or “Upgrade and restart”.  But even if that comes up, I’m obviously not actively engaged in any editing, uploading or downloading when I’m ready to boot to the other side.  Windows sees it as a shutdown or a restart, which it is.

      I know other folks have these issues, and I’m not trying to downplay their issues.  I’m just saying that I don’t.  Part of the reason may be that I don’t have a standard installation of Windows, but I don’t know that to be the case.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!
      "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1876926 Reply

      anonymous

      Just Microsoft in general and the disorganization and mistakes that are all too common with each and every monthly updates.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1876970 Reply

      Just about everything.

      I often wonder if the patches are being done in Redmond, or somewhere else; was reading this a while ago and it got me wondering:

      “Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers”

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-737-max-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers

      When this horror story broke (and was quickly buried), I thought, “Well, at least they’ll get a handle on it quickly, as Boeing creates their own OS for their aircraft…” Dummy me!

      (Note: Off-topic, but start re-arranging your Holiday plans, as it’s not expected to get these planes back in the air until 2020…)

      In summary, when I was working on NASA projects, we had a program called “Zero Defects”. 50 years later, well, boy, has the tech culture changed…including the culture surrounding those making up the patches!

       

      Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit, Dell Latitude E6330, Intel CORE i5 "Ivy Bridge", Group "Wait for the all-clear", Multiple Air-Gapped backup drives in different locations, "Don't check for updates-Full Manual Mode."
      --
      "...All the people, all the time..." (Peter Ustinov ad-lib from "Logan's Run")

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1876974 Reply

      Sueska
      AskWoody Plus

      My list:
      1) Time stamp issue happens for Office 2013 too. Installed 6 July Office 2013 updates. When I investigated uninstalling one of those updates, found 120 office updates (about 3/4 of total) time stamped with same date listed in no logical order. Thought I was the only one with this issue, thank you for mentioning this Susan.
      2) Seems to always take more than one day to update Windows 10 Pro (have Windows Update group policy set to 2, notify to download and install). Example: after installing some updates manually and/or hiding some updates with wushowhide, have to wait until Windows Update’s next check for update cycle (usually the next day) to see current status or if any new updates are offered. Not willing to click check for updates and immediately install of course and not willing jump through hoops to clear the update queue.
      3) Update catalog search annoyances. If you know the KB number no problem. Try searching in the catalog for 2019-07 Windows 8.1 or anything with Windows 8.1 for that matter.
      4) Confusing update naming conventions.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #1876980 Reply

        Microfix
        Da Boss

        3) Update catalog search annoyances. If you know the KB number no problem. Try searching in the catalog for 2019-07 Windows 8.1 or anything with Windows 8.1 for that matter.

        @sueska Thanks for bringing that up, it’s been an unreachable itch for a while.

        ********** Win7 x64/x86 | Win8.1 x64 | Linux Hybrids x64 **********

    • #1876984 Reply

      BobT
      AskWoody Lounger

      Not having full control, end of. Even on 7, as we used to, having patches separately and being able to pick and choose. What 10 does is so intolerable I won’t even discuss. Wth, forcing people to patch, installing if you just check, rebooting on its own, forcing to install other stuff if you just want security, forcing feature updates / version changes? How do you rank that in annoyance when it’s all 100% intolerable under any circumstances?

      Indeed, how the do people put up with this? It’s YOUR PERSONAL COMPUTER, why the heck do you let Microsoft bully you and decide what THEY do with it?

      “2.Windows will not see that uploading a video to a file sharing site it not active use of a system and thus will reboot right as I’m trying to upload a video (can you tell I hit this tonight?)”

      Just what? Why would you allow that situation to even be possible? It’s not up to MS to decide whether what your PC is doing at the time is important or not, that’s for YOU. I swear the people who actually accept this stuff and actually move onto W10 are full on masochists. For me, the situation is completely unacceptable completely on principle, and then the decision is solidified when seeing the balls-up in practice.

      I’m on 7 and have FULL CONTROL. Soon as I heard about them sneaking in Telemetry in “Security Only” patches, guess what I did, decided not to install them! I now have literally 0 worries, other than being more vigilant with security, but that’s my responsibility for my personal possessions, just as I make sure I lock my door at night. Totally up to me when, what and how stuff gets on my machine, as it should be. Why would I want to change this?

      • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  BobT.
      • #1877022 Reply

        anonymous

        Indeed, how the do people put up with this? It’s YOUR PERSONAL COMPUTER, why the heck do you let Microsoft bully you and decide what THEY do with it?

        “We own the operating system, you  lease it.”  – Microsoft

         

        • #1877094 Reply

          BobT
          AskWoody Lounger

          Don’t care. still running on my machine, in my own home, not their offices.

          I “lease” my electric meter, but that doesn’t give them the right to boot down my door, come in and install whatever the heck they want.

          They’re actually trying to push Smart Metres, (which I don’t need as I have an electric monitor device already), and I simply refused. My house, my control.

          Same if I “leased” my mobile phone on contract, doesn’t give them the right to update it whenever they want.

          Why do people put up with this from Microsoft? It’s A PERSONAL COMPUTER. This sort of stuff should ESPECIALLY be banned since it does absolutely impact your software and files, which are YOUR property. The scheduling should be your decision, also.

          • #1877119 Reply

            joep517
            AskWoody MVP

            You agreed to this when you agreed to the terms of service in the EULA. If you do not like the terms then as I see it you have choices:

            1.) Get Microsoft to changes the terms.

            2.) Begin using a different OS.

            3.) Ignore the EULA and do whatever you can to avoid patches.

            --Joe

            • #1877132 Reply

              BobT
              AskWoody Lounger

              Or keep using 7 like I am doing, and tell them to go shove it.

              I just hope more people don’t become complacent about this sort of attitude, soulless corps intruding further and further into your personal life and equipment.

              I wouldn’t put up with it with ANYTHING else in my house, so why would I with my personal computer?

              1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #1877594 Reply

            anonymous

            Exactly. Sadly many just don’t care, or not enough, so the change won’t be a grassroots one, must be top-down, from institutions that can impose decisions worldwide, or at least continentally for starters, banning such practices.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1877020 Reply

      Chronocidal Guy
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’ve experienced this a fairly low number of times thankfully, but since my office has moved to Windows 10, I’ve gotten some first-hand experience of exactly what this situation is.. and it’s honestly just terrible for anyone who needs their computer to get work done.

      The killer for me is that the operating system gives absolutely no recognition to the fact that it is, in essence, a tool for a user to complete a task.  Whether that task is work-related, entertainment-related, or otherwise, the user is employing the system for a purpose.

      The OS does not recognize this in the slightest.

      My first poignant experience in this regard was the day I was typing an email, and the computer decided it was time to restart.  No pop up, no warning, no sign of what was happening.  I was cut off from completing a critical email for an odd hour or so, because the computer monitor simply blanked out on me, with big letters saying “Restarting…”  The active hours and settings were all properly configured to never allow such a thing to happen during working hours, but that didn’t stop the system from deciding it knew better.

      To make a slightly ludicrous comparison, this is the equivalent of your car being pulled over, and impounded, because the check engine light went on.  You may know what that light means, and think “I’ve got time to get it worked on,” and you’d be right.  But the manufacturer is going to override your ownership of the vehicle, remove it from your possession for some undisclosed amount of time, and prevent you from completing the tasks you required it for, until they get around to returning it.  They’re leaving you stranded on the side of the road, and attempting to reach your destination without the car you were depending on to make the trip.  Heaven forbid we actually ever get a Windows-OS powered car, or this situation may become a literal illustration.

      Bottom line?  Windows 10 has become an unfit OS for productivity.  If you cannot depend on the OS to allow your computer to operate in the way you deem necessary at the time you deem necessary, it is not fit for purpose, be it for business or entertainment.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #1877128 Reply

        joep517
        AskWoody MVP

        I think something is misconfigured on your system. I agree with bbearren’s post https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/patch-lady-what-things-about-patching-annoy-you/#post-1876923.

        If you have an IT staff, have them check the system. Perhaps they have pushed some policies that override what you think is set.

        --Joe

        • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  joep517.
        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #1877174 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody_MVP

          I agree that such behavior can be configured around. I haven’t had an update do anything unexpected in a very long time and now I sit all day every day in front of a big system. GPEdit.msc with Win 10 Pro or better is good for this situation.

          That being said, why should we have to configure around such behavior? No one asked that their system be taken over.

          Chronocidal guy’s main point is that Windows doesn’t “think like a tool”. It thinks like a delivery system.

          Who’s going to make systems that facilitate productivity? Someone has to.

          -Noel

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #1877222 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody_MVP

            That being said, why should we have to configure around such behavior? No one asked that their system be taken over. Chronocidal guy’s main point is that Windows doesn’t “think like a tool”. It thinks like a delivery system.

            It does indeed, and that’s quite obviously the intent.  It’s a delivery system for Microsoft’s monetizing efforts first; the utility it has for the owner of the PC is not Windows 10’s main purpose, but is instead a lure to get people to subject themselves to whatever Microsoft wants to deliver.

            That’s not good enough.

            Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.4).

    • #1877024 Reply

      anonymous

      That I don’t have full control over patching.

      Turned off should mean turn off (oh wait, there is no real off button).

      Check for updates should mean check for updates not install all updates.

      No control to only install selected updates when I need to.

    • #1877130 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody_MVP

      I’m going to paint broader strokes here.

      What irritates me about patching…

      1. We have this psychological push for “OMG, your current software is insecure and MUST be patched or doom and gloom will fall”

      2. “Our new software is the most secure software ever!”

      3. Next month/year, see step 1.

      Where is the “It’s working, it’s good enough, it’s done” in all this? Where is the “Teach people to compute responsibly?”

      Unfortunately, there IS plenty of “your system won’t work as well as it did after patching – that’s just a given”.

      I get irritated when I see people being manipulated into doing things they would not otherwise do.

      Oh, and don’t forget 2a. “Patches are always better/perfect.”

      -Noel

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1877178 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Plus

      Patching itself (as a member of group B) does not bother me: I have only one computer running Windows 7 and I have never had a problem definitely caused by a bad patch — at least that I’ve been able to notice, or unable to solve. That said, I have always paid attention to what is going on — for example, these days, as reported here and elsewhere — and have always waited long enough for any reports of trouble with the latest monthly patches to have time to surface, if they are ever going to. So far, so good.

      What does bother me these days in particular, is the heavy-handed approach to impose telemetry on users without offering them the option to opt out. But for me, all this will soon be history, as I am already working with Linux on my PC (in dual boot with Win 7) and with my Mac more than with Windows, and I have no plans to install any further versions of this operating system. It used to be necessary, years ago, to use Windows just to be able to communicate (and work) with others elsewhere, because most people I had to work with were using Windows. And many things, streaming for example, worked better or at all with Windows. No longer the case now, so for me, comes January, it will be: goodby Windows and thanks for the good times. Although I’ll keep using Windows 7 in much the same way as people have been using XP way after it became unsupported, for as long as my old Windows PC is in good enough shape to be useful that way.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1882395 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        If you want Linux without telemetry, stay away from Ubuntu and its derivatives (Mint in particular)! Fedora (Red Hat’s free version) isn’t much more private than Windows either.

        Despite their protestations, Apple does have telemetry in Mac OS and especially in iOS (iPad, iPhone).

        -- rc primak

        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  rc primak.
        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  rc primak.
    • #1877179 Reply

      anonymous

      I hate that M$ isn’t likely going to drop W10 anytime soon despite all the issues it has and it adds more problems with every patch than what it solves, so I’m sticked to W7, still hoping in W11 by 2023… Also I would like a turnaround of M$ regarding their all-centric OS policy: they developed W10 having in mind an OS for any device (desktop, tablet and smartphone), but since Windows Mobile is dead anyway, they should just drop it and give us back a desktop-only user experience. My hatred for Apple has no limits, but I still praise them for keeping desktop user experience (MacOS) separated from mobile (iOS) and now even tablet (iPadOS). I really want W7 interface with the kernel improvements under the hood of W10. And yes, I know I could use Windows 10 LTSC for getting rid of Cortana, the store apps and games for kids and all the other annoying features that W10 inherited from mobile OSes, but then I would be stuck for stuff like Ryzen 3xxx CPUs, that need W10 v1903 for taking advantage of the dual-chiplet die for 3900X and upcoming 3950X. So annoying…

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1882400 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        The Cloud is where the money is, and that’s an unavoidable fact for all consumer and small business OSes.

        The upside is, we won’t have as many or as large local patches to worry about. Because not much of the OS and Apps will still be on our own devices. Think Chromebook, only done with Windows S-Versions.

        -- rc primak

    • #1877183 Reply

      anonymous

      ? says:

      since you asked, absolutely nothing since the win7 july security only patch came down the chute. the line has been drawn the battle lost and the war won…

      if you get bored with trying to keep your machine updated (your way) take a break and look at the Apollo 11Image Library pics. i just looked through the archives and enjoyed it immensely

      https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/images11.html#5961

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1877191 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      No one asked that their system be taken over.

      But we all did, when we started using the OS. I hate to keep sounding like a looped mp3, but “This agreement describes your rights and the conditions upon which you may use the Windows software. You should review the entire agreement, including any supplemental license terms that accompany the software and any linked terms, because all of the terms are important and together create this agreement that applies to you.
      By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.”

      “Updates. The software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates. By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice.”

      To read the entire agreement and the terms to which we have all agreed, click All settings > System > About > Read the Microsoft Software License Terms.

      Is Microsoft going to have a change of heart, or change their business model? Not likely.

      Productivity and Business Processes reported revenue of $11 billion, showing 14% growth on-year. Both the enterprise and personal versions of Microsoft’s signature software suite had good news to share. Office 365 Commercial posted 31% revenue growth, and Office 365 Consumer reported having 34.8 million subscribers. This division also includes professional social media network LinkedIn, which saw revenue grow 25%.

      In addition to the quarterly details, Microsoft also reported its results for the full 2019 fiscal year ending June 30. Revenue increased 14% to $125.8 billion. Net income was $39.2 billion on earnings of $5.06 per share, up 137% and 138%, respectively.

      The overall performance shows Microsoft continuing to move ahead with the cloud-focused vision that CEO Satya Nadella implemented when he took the helm back in 2014. Its fourth-quarter report back in 2018 had similar successes for Azure and Office 365, and for as long as the critical divisions and brands continue to post ever-bigger numbers, it’s safe to assume that Microsoft will be staying the course.”

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!
      "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #1877237 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody_MVP

        But we all did, when we started using the OS.

        It doesn’t mean anyone really agreed to it.  Windows 10 users were coerced to “agree” to the Microsoft terms because Microsoft has spent 30 years making sure they need Windows to be able to use their computers effectively, and they’ve made sure all Windows roads lead to Windows 10 and its unfavorable EULA.  No one agreed freely to the Windows 10 EULA, as they would have been able to do in a competitive market.  Microsoft has a legal monopoly, and as a monopolist, they don’t have as much leeway to do coercive things as a company like Apple would, even if they used the same language exactly.

        The EULA is just words, and until it’s tested in court, it’s pretty meaningless.  Some bits that hinge on existing case, regulatory, or statutory law are likely to be upheld, if it ever came to that, and it would certainly be a wise idea to consider such bits as binding, but the limits of shrink-wrap contracts have yet to be defined in full.  The concept of the shrink-wrap contract has been upheld (unfortunately), but the limits are still in question.

        Microsoft can’t really grant themselves the right to come to your house and take your stuff, or to conscript you into the Microsoft army and put you on a bus and make you perform service to Microsoft as consideration for your use of Windows.  They could put words to that effect in the EULA, but they would not be upheld in any court, and bits of a contract that don’t stand up in court are meaningless.

        Clearly, just putting stuff in the EULA doesn’t make it binding.  Judges throw out bits of duly agreed-to contracts all the time, and that’s when neither party is/has a legal monopoly. At best (from Microsoft’s point of view), Microsoft’s EULA would give them the cover to take over people’s computers without getting in trouble with a given government.  It doesn’t mean people really agreed to the terms, or that MS has the moral authority or right to do so.

        Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.4).

        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #1877320 Reply

          anonymous

          When getting a loan to buy a house few people read the entire contract or understand it.  You want a loan, you sign here, here, here, here….  Loan Brokers are busy (time is money) and they stand over you. Their physical presence applies pressure to sign without reading. Most people succumb to the pressure.  Apart from the lack of someone standing over you, where’s the difference between that and agreeing to a EULA?

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #1877606 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody_MVP

            We’ve already veered off the topic of Windows patching annoyances, so I will make this my last post in this thread regarding the contract issues, and I will try to answer the question as succinctly as I can.

            If a person felt pressured to accept any given contract, he can absolutely petition the court to nullify the agreement on that basis, even without the extra restrictions that are imposed on a monopolist like Microsoft (and not members of a competitive market like mortgage brokers).  Contracts, or bits of them, are nullified by courts all the time, even though they were ostensibly agreed to by both parties.

            Microsoft, through 30 plus years of deliberate action, has placed every Windows user under duress to agree to the Windows 10 contract, on pain of losing the effective use of important tools for business or personal use.

            My point is not that I do or do not expect the courts to throw out the Win 10 EULA, but that “MS said [x] in the EULA” isn’t the last word on the matter, and certainly not when it comes to the ethical implications, which is what most people are really talking about when they say things like “Microsoft doesn’t have the right to take over my computer!”  I don’t think most people who make that claim are thinking in terms of legal action involving Microsoft, which is the only time the EULA would even come into play.  They’re talking about basic right and wrong, based on principles like fairness and ownership of private property, and in that way, I think MS is clearly in the wrong with their strong-arm tactics, including (but by no means limited to) the issues that Ms. Bradley has cited in the aforementioned blog post.

            Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.4).

          • #1877710 Reply

            Charlie
            AskWoody Plus

            I’ve had a lawyer present at the settlement of a piece of property and the house I bought.  He looked at, explained, and approved every paper before I signed it.

            Win 7 Home Premium, x64, Intel i3-2120 3.3GHz, Groups B & L

            1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #1877575 Reply

          bbearren
          AskWoody MVP

          It doesn’t mean anyone really agreed to it. … The EULA is just words, and until it’s tested in court, it’s pretty meaningless.

          Yes, in fact it does indeed mean everyone really, literally agreed to it.  And yes, software EULA agreements have indeed been tested in court, and upheld.

          “The US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit today ruled (pdf) … “We hold today that a software user is a licensee rather than an owner of a copy where the copyright owner (1) specifies that the user is granted a license; (2) significantly restricts the user’s ability to transfer the software; and (3) imposes notable use restrictions.”

          Microsoft Windows EULA fully complies with all three of those criteria.  We’ve been through this before, and it’s still the simple truth of the matter.  This doesn’t mean that Microsoft is going to send U.S. Marshalls to your door, but it does mean that the EULA is a valid contract between you (all of us) and Microsoft.

          Windows 10 (warts complaints and all) is running on 700,000,000 devices, and that number continues to grow.  That’s a pretty good indicator that Microsoft is not going to change, but we still have options; uninstall the software and start using another OS.

          The point is that when we click on that “Accept” button in order to get the installation of Windows to proceed, we are binding ourselves to the terms of the EULA, like it or not.

          Create a fresh drive image before making system changes, in case you need to start over!
          "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Captain Jack Sparrow
          "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns

          "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #1878815 Reply

            mn–
            AskWoody Lounger

            es, in fact it does indeed mean everyone really, literally agreed to it.  And yes, software EULA agreements have indeed been tested in court, and upheld.

            “The US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit today ruled (pdf) …

            Actually the part about “everyone” is very much in question. Most by now, sure, but there’s been a few cases in European courts regarding the sneak-upgrade to 10…

            BTW, a number of the provisions in the various MS EULAs may be distinctly unenforceable in a number of jurisdictions other than the US. Particularly for private persons in situations where consumer protection laws may apply.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #1878828 Reply

              anonymous

              BTW, a number of the provisions in the various MS EULAs may be distinctly unenforceable in a number of jurisdictions other than the US. Particularly for private persons in situations where consumer protection laws may apply.

              I expect Microsoft is not silly enough to have a one-size-fits-all EULA without checking and  making appropriate modifications. From there its a matter of using the EULA relevant to the user’s country of installation.

      • #1877608 Reply

        anonymous

        The question here is choice. Do people have an alternative, an OS to use that won’t behave in this manner but that’s equally supported by whatever hardware they have and all other software they use, whether they need (productivity, including specialized software) or just want (games for example) it? May be more expensive and/or require more tweaking and knowledge, that’d be fine, call that the price of doing away with these problems, but does it exist, readily available for both home and office users?

        — Cavalary

        • #1877864 Reply

          Lugh
          AskWoody_MVP

          Do people have an alternative … that’s equally supported by whatever hardware they have and all other software they use

          Obviously that depends on the individual, I’ve seen a small few people say they’re changing to another OS.

          I’m fairly sure OSX can’t be legally installed on non-Apple hardware, so that’s out.

          Linux can be installed on PCs, so that’s the main alternative. For me it’s not an alternative because of software limitations, but I expect that will change as MS’s Linux support grows over time.

          Lugh.
          ~
          Alienware Aurora R6; Win10 Home x64 1803; Office 365 x32
          i7-7700; GeForce GTX 1060; 16GB DDR4 2400; 1TB SSD, 256GB SSD, 4TB HD

          • #1882402 Reply

            rc primak
            AskWoody_MVP

            For me it’s not an alternative because of software limitations,

            Indeed, that will change over time. And it has changed over the past ten years or so.

            As for Microsoft’s “Linux”, (And Google’s “Linux”) these won’t be GNU/Linux, and certainly not FLOSS (Free Libre Open Source Software). You will still take the Official Patches, whether they break something or not, and no “takesy-backsies”. That is certainly a different patching policy from most GNU/Linux distros.

            We now return you to the original topic.

            -- rc primak

            • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  rc primak.
        • #1878818 Reply

          mn–
          AskWoody Lounger

          Sure. It’s just “a small matter of programming” … At most, all you need is to reimplement the specialized software too, so the price tag may have to accommodate a hundred programmers for some years.

          Linux on the business desktop is only limited by affordable specialized software availability. Home desktop, usually not even that but market inertia.

          Most of the others are rather more behind… BSD (except Apple but they’re only sort of BSD) on the desktop is also doable though would

          require more tweaking and knowledge

          .

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #1882406 Reply

            rc primak
            AskWoody_MVP

            At most, all you need is to reimplement the specialized software too, so the price tag may have to accommodate a hundred programmers for some years.

            I hate when some Linux software goes commercial and you have to pay for it. This violates the whole spirit of FLOSS. Donations are welcomed, but programmers need to get away from the model of making money per line of code written, and get paid for actual value-added services rendered.

            This might be a good model for commercial software as well. Maybe improve the quality of patching by paying folks for actually fixing stuff, and ding their salaries if they break anything beyond a small monthly allowance. Make them share our pain and our costs.

            -- rc primak

    • #1877312 Reply

      Lugh
      AskWoody_MVP

      I don’t have any patching annoyances currently, since my experience mirrors bbearen’s above.

      There was a time—in 2017 iirc—when the monthly updates changed settings for a few months. That was annoying. Otherwise, I’ve had 2.5 years of trouble-free updates on both our machines here—one Home, one Pro.

      I haven’t set any barriers to updates, MS can send them whenever they like. I never lose work or cursor focus because I set my working hours to avoid same. I also never go looking for updates since as far as I know MS has not changed its advice to let it send you updates when it thinks the machine is ready for them. So I’m still on 1803 and our Pro machine is 1809.

      If an update does cause a problem sometime—inevitable I’m sure—then I’ll lose 30 minutes restoring a system disk image. Meantime I save time every month by not concerning myself with updates.

      Lugh.
      ~
      Alienware Aurora R6; Win10 Home x64 1803; Office 365 x32
      i7-7700; GeForce GTX 1060; 16GB DDR4 2400; 1TB SSD, 256GB SSD, 4TB HD

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #1882408 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        Preparation (and good backups) are key to successful and less painful updating/upgrading. We all have to act defensively, just as we should do whenever going out for a drive in a car or a ride on a bike.

        If backup were as automatic as updating, maybe there would be fewer screams of agony when something goes horribly wrong with a patch. Windows can be set up this way, either natively or with third party scheduled backup software, paid or free.

        I would like to see blocking of reinstallation of failed or borked patches become easier than resorting to wushowhide. Without having to turn each patching disaster into a Support Call or a visit to the Microsoft Store. As long as we tried to install a patch, blocking its reinstallation should not be like climbing Mount Everest.

        Android, Chrome OS and iOS all have automatic data backups. And very standardized user-side OS configurations, with little “customization” except by hardware vendors or cell carriers. I automate everything except system imaging (cloning) for all my Linux installations. If I used Windows more often, I’d do the same for Windows 10.

        Something to think about next time we complain about Windows Desktop patching.

        I mean, the automatic backup part, not the limited user choices part, of course.  😉

        -- rc primak

        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  rc primak.
        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  rc primak.
        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  rc primak.
        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  rc primak.
        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  rc primak.

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