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  • Reboot to motherboard level only…

    Posted on dturnidge Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    Home Forums AskWoody support Windows Windows 10 Windows 10 version 1803 – April 2018 Update Reboot to motherboard level only…

    This topic contains 38 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  GoneToPlaid 2 months ago.

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    • #203984 Reply

      dturnidge
      AskWoody Lounger

      I am at 1803; NO recent updates other than Defender.

      I leave my system running 24/7. This morning, I was attempting to access a second copy of windows explorer in the taskbar. There was a “flash” of a popup but it wouldn’t stay up. I couldn’t select it. I tried other icons in the taskbar with the same result.

      I rebooted my system, and got to the initial motherboard screen and stopped there. Nothing.

      I have recently purchased a Seagate 6TB USB3.0 backup drive. I have left it plugged into a USB3.0 port in the back of my system. (I attempted to use it with the USB3.0 ports on the front of my system…but it didn’t stay active…wouldn’t complete a backup. Seemed to work from the back ports.

      The thought came to me to unplug the Seagate…and I was able to boot again.

      Any ideas?

      Dave \o/

    • #204012 Reply

      JohnW
      AskWoody Lounger

      I have no idea of the specifics, but the BIOS is probably having a conflict while trying to locate the primary boot device.

      I have experienced a few occasions where having an external drive connected during the power on/self test resulted in a failure to find the actual boot device.

      If unplugging the external drive corrects the situation, that is the fix.  This step in the boot sequence is all hardware and BIOS, so has nothing at all to do with Windows.  Windows is actually loaded FROM the designated boot device AFTER the BIOS sorts things out.

      You could maybe check with your system manufacturer to see if they have any newer BIOS updates available for your motherboard model, but that is just a long shot.

    • #204013 Reply

      PKCano
      AskWoody MVP

      Another thing you might check is the boot sequence in the BIOS. Set your hard drive as the first boot device. If the CD drive or the USB is set to boot before the primary drive, this could cause the problem.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #204016 Reply

        JohnW
        AskWoody Lounger

        That is quite possible, but I have never seen a system set to do that by default, unless the user made changes in the BIOS settings.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #204017 Reply

          dturnidge
          AskWoody Lounger

          Well, I haven’t changed BIOS … yet …

          • #204019 Reply

            JohnW
            AskWoody Lounger

            Boot to the BIOS setup screen with the external drive attached an turned on.

            Then look at your boot priority settings.  Make sure your internal HDD is the first in the list.

      • #204037 Reply

        HiFlyer
        AskWoody Lounger

        Another thing you might check is the boot sequence in the BIOS. Set your hard drive as the first boot device. If the CD drive or the USB is set to boot before the primary drive, this could cause the problem.

        For other pcs not having this problem.  Wouldn’t it be better to have the boot sequence USB, CD, HD to make it easier to recover from “bricked” status?

        (If no USB or CD is loaded)

        • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  HiFlyer.
        • #204057 Reply

          JohnW
          AskWoody Lounger

          Quite true, as most machines I have ever touched end up with this custom boot order [USB/CD/HDD] to facilitate repair/recovery/diagnostic boot media on CD or USB.

          But for the OP’s case, it appears to be a case of the disappearing HDD boot device when he has the USB3 drive connected at POST time.  That shouldn’t be happening.

          So if his boot order has the internal HDD at #1 boot priority set in the BIOS, there shouldn’t be any reason that he isn’t booting correctly.  Unless that external drive is interfering with the BIOS somehow…

          One thing that makes boot setup more interesting with modern machines, is that you now have legacy BIOS vs. UEFI BIOS, and MBR vs. GPT partitioning to deal with.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #204015 Reply

      JohnW
      AskWoody Lounger

      Another thought is the controller in the new USB drive may be flaky.  You did mention having issues with the ports on the from of your system not liking it.  Do those ports work with other devices?

      Options there could be to test the drive on another system, or just RMA it for a replacement.

      Bottom line it will be a hardware or firmware issue.

      • #204018 Reply

        dturnidge
        AskWoody Lounger

        Yup, it didn’t like the front ports. I guess I’m gonna have to bring it back…

        Thank you all for your responses!

      • #204055 Reply

        PaulK
        AskWoody Lounger

        On some computers the front USB ports are for lower-speed devices only, such as keyboard, mouse, audio, etc.; the back ports must be used for high-speed devices. Check the User Guide (probably a PDF that must be downloaded from the manufacturer’s site, under a Service tab) for the ports’ speed specifications.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #204058 Reply

          PKCano
          AskWoody MVP

          Not only speed, but max power available. I’ve seen laptops especially that won’t boot if the USB is under powered for the device plugged in.

          • #204061 Reply

            JohnW
            AskWoody Lounger

            Not an issue here, as he isn’t trying to boot from USB.  He is losing access to his HDD when the USB is plugged in.

        • #204059 Reply

          JohnW
          AskWoody Lounger

          That’s a possibility, but still strictly a secondary issue.  The external drive is no longer connected to the front ports , and he has developed boot drive detection issues using the ones in the rear.

    • #204050 Reply

      BobbyB
      AskWoody Lounger

      Yup, it didn’t like the front ports.

      @dturnidge I am guessing its a Desktop machine, i.e. not subject to Bumps, Bangs and Shocks that could make it an obvious loose ribbon cable, jumpers etc. (to and from USB ports and/or HDD/SSD’s) rare occasions I have seen USB ports become loose over time with a lot of Traffic (insert remove USB frequently) unlikely being at the back as folks seldom want to go back there. As @johnw suggests it could be an incompatibility with the new Seagate drive, although haven’t see that for years it used to be more prevalent on (E)IDE arrangements back in the bad old days of MASTER and SLAVE Jumper settings, but as I am sure your Machine is more modern than that I suppose it rules that out. Hmm a conundrum, any ways “Food for thought” just in case it jogs your memory. Fault finding can be a frustrating “over thinking”, missing the obvious” exercise sometimes. Just a thought with out putting “my paws” on the machine, but as we are from all over the World alas House calls are definitely out of the question lol 😉

    • #204064 Reply

      PKCano
      AskWoody MVP

      Hmm.
      If legacy boot is enabled, but the Primary boot device is UEFI, would that make a difference.

      • #204072 Reply

        BobbyB
        AskWoody Lounger

        @pkcano Its a possibility, you could be on the right track with that, certainly worth a try in the Boot Select screen i.e. USB HDD etc although when selecting Legacy all the avail. boot media shows up on the Boot Select screen whereas (U)EFI it would only show UEFI media. For HP’s inc. the dreaded INSYDE H20 REV 3.5-5.0 Bios’s. To get Win7 to install EFI/GPT switch to legacy create the USB stick in RUFUS using EFI/GPT select, then after the first reboot change over to EFI again and it continues merrily in UEFI, using a highly modified Win7x64 image, but I am getting off the topic here but definitely worth switching between UEFI and Legacy its painless and easy to do. As an extra while your there have a look at SECURE BOOT settings on/off or (factory reset SECURE BOOT KEYS, use at your peril it may make things worse not recommended) as I have known Win10 with some updates/user/random to change them. Again getting off topic Win7 (doesent handle secure boot) on a multi boot here with Win10, if it doesent boot first port of call in the BIOS check Secure boot, as it will provide similar symptoms shortly after POST although normally accompanied by “BOOT DEVICE NOT FOUND”

    • #204068 Reply

      Microfix
      AskWoody MVP

      Could there possibly be an MS patch to blame that has altered the UEFI?

      Wouldn’t be unheard of..

      | W8.1 Pro x64 | Linux x64 Hybrids | W7 Pro x64 O/L | XP Pro O/L
        No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
      • #204077 Reply

        BobbyB
        AskWoody Lounger

        @microfix my thought exactly while I was typing the above and I have seen it done on more than one occasion alas, for why defeats me but hey that’s M$ eh?

      • #204109 Reply

        JohnW
        AskWoody Lounger

        Interesting idea, but the HDD boots normally to Windows if the external drive is unplugged.  If a patch had messed with Windows, I don’t think the boot would go back to normal just by unplugging an unrelated drive.

    • #204074 Reply

      Bill C.
      AskWoody Lounger

      I have had a similar issue with a WD Elements USB 3.0 1TB HDD. If plugged in before booting, it just stops after the POST, instead of rolling to the next boot device. While I can easily boot from USB devices and other bootable media, this particular drive does not like to be in the boot process. Non-bootable USB media like a USB stick or CD or DVD will just move to the next item on the BIOS boot order. Since it is for backup and not booting, I just have always attached it after booting. I have never installed an OS on the drive, but I may try that to see if that is the issue.

      I suspect it may also be due to no boot info on the drive, or possibly hardware issues as it is relatively new and the MB is now 7 years old and a BIOS MB, but it has never thrown errors or BSODs.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #204289 Reply

      anonymous

      I have a Dell Inspiron running Win7 x64 that has an Epson printer plugged into one of the rear USB-2 ports.  If the printer is on and awake, it stops the Inspiron finding the OS HDD.  If the printer is either off or asleep, the Inspiron boots OK.

      I have no idea either – and life is just too short….

      James

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #204294 Reply

        JohnW
        AskWoody Lounger

        My SOP for resolving boot issues is to always unplug EVERYTHING from the computer, except the boot drive, and then see if it boots.

        Then start hooking things back up until it fails again.

        When it comes to something like this, you could attempt to contact Dell, but as you say, sometimes life is too short … 😀

         

    • #204297 Reply

      cyberSAR
      AskWoody Lounger

      Have a remote client that has this issue the last 6-8 months. Has a Dell Vostro Win7 64-bit with an HP USB printer and Seagate backup drive. Issue started occurring shortly after he added a 3rd monitor. I haven’t been to his site to evaluate but if what he states is correct, his boot order in BIOS is set properly.

      My workaround has been to disable the printer and backup drive in device manager, reboot and then re-enable the devices. Bit of a pain and adds a little time to my maintenance every week but at least it works.

    • #204299 Reply

      Microfix
      AskWoody MVP

      @dturnidge, Can you check within your BIOS settings for ‘Disable Legacy USB’ (or something similar) and let me know what the value is.
      Is your connected keyboard PS/2 or USB? Is your connected mouse PS/2 or USB?

      | W8.1 Pro x64 | Linux x64 Hybrids | W7 Pro x64 O/L | XP Pro O/L
        No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
      • #204304 Reply

        dturnidge
        AskWoody Lounger

        Well, I can tell you that my keyboard is USB, and my mouse is wireless/USB. I haven’t looked at the BIOS for a long time (if ever). I’ll try to get back to you if I figure it out… 🙂

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #204311 Reply

          Microfix
          AskWoody MVP

          If you find ‘Disable Legacy USB’, DO NOT change it’s value since you have a USB Mouse and Keyboard (why did they kill PS/2 connections)

          | W8.1 Pro x64 | Linux x64 Hybrids | W7 Pro x64 O/L | XP Pro O/L
            No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT - AE
          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #204329 Reply

          JohnW
          AskWoody Lounger

          @dturnidge

          Just out of curiosity, what is the make/model of your PC?

    • #204347 Reply

      dturnidge

      Built from scratch at Micro Center.

    • #209580 Reply

      anonymous

      Digging up an unresolved old topic 🙂

      @OP, did you get this resolved or do you have to boot with the USB H/D disconnected as a workaround? Just curious, as a friend has the same problem on Win10 1803, and that’s her way around it.

      • #209594 Reply

        anonymous

        @OP, did you get this resolved or do you have to boot with the USB H/D disconnected as a workaround? Just curious, as a friend has the same problem on Win10 1803, and that’s her way around it.

        Yeah, it seems that the only workaround is disconnecting or unplugging the drive. Who knows? Maybe someday it will automagicly get fixed… 🙁

    • #209612 Reply

      JohnW
      AskWoody Lounger

      @OP, did you get this resolved or do you have to boot with the USB H/D disconnected as a workaround? Just curious, as a friend has the same problem on Win10 1803, and that’s her way around it.

      Yeah, it seems that the only workaround is disconnecting or unplugging the drive. Who knows? Maybe someday it will automagicly get fixed… 

      Just out of curiosity, did you copy your C: drive contents over to the external drive as a backup before the problem started, or did trouble begin when the external drive was brand new and completely empty?

    • #209633 Reply

      dturnidge
      AskWoody Lounger

      “Just out of curiosity, did you copy your C: drive contents over to the external drive as a backup before the problem started, or did trouble begin when the external drive was brand new and completely empty?”

      I was trying to use it as a backup drive with Acronis… It wasn’t a backup that required me to sign off – so I don’t think the boot information was on the drive. But yes, I did attempt to get my C and D drives copied over. I think I have finally succeeded…

      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  dturnidge.
      • #209635 Reply

        JohnW
        AskWoody Lounger

        Well the reasoning behind my question is that I was wondering if the drive caused any issues before you put any data on it.

        Just had the thought to rule out if it was the bare drive interfering with the boot, or possibly some data in the drive causing the boot issue.

        • #209809 Reply

          dturnidge
          AskWoody Lounger

          Well, the “bare” drive had stuff installed on it before I used it. So, it was never “bare”…

    • #209640 Reply

      GoneToPlaid
      AskWoody Lounger

      …I have recently purchased a Seagate 6TB USB3.0 backup drive. I have left it plugged into a USB3.0 port in the back of my system. (I attempted to use it with the USB3.0 ports on the front of my system…but it didn’t stay active…wouldn’t complete a backup. Seemed to work from the back ports. The thought came to me to unplug the Seagate…and I was able to boot again. Any ideas? Dave \o/

      Your first issue most likely is that the front computer case USB3 ports aren’t fully RF isolated. I too have encountered this issue. This problem is usually caused by RF interference on the non-shielded mini circuit board in the front of the computer case which has these front case USB3 ports. USB3 is known to be subject to RF interference. Here, the issue is that the shielded USB3 cables from this board plug into your computer’s motherboard, yet there are portions of the computer case’s mini circuit board which are not shielded from RF interference. This problem can additionally be caused by the stiff shielded USB3 cables from the front USB3 ports. The stiffness can cause the cable connector, where it plugs into the motherboard, to not maintain a stable connection. I remedied this inside my computers by using a zip tie to hold the cable in a stable position by zip tying the cable to a part of my computer case’s internal drive bay rack. Yet I still encountered issues since on front of my case, I also have my wireless mouse’s transceiver plugged into an adjacent USB2 port! You just can’t win with USB3, unless you connect to the USB3 ports which are directly on the motherboard and on the back side of the computer.

      The upshot of the above is that I gave up on front side USB3. Instead, I installed a SATA removable hard drive bay in one of my computer case’s empty front panel bays. Now I back up entirely through SATA.

      With Windows 7 (don’t know about 8.1 or 10) and if you want to reliably use USB3 , you MUST disable power management for all USB3 ports in Device Manager, or your USB3 backup drive will frequently disconnect. Why? I don’t know. Yet my guess is that Windows doesn’t realize that your backup program’s low level I/O driver is accessing the USB3 port.

      And there is another potential issue! USB3 is flaky — period — at maximum throughput. If your backup program has a setting to throttle the backup speed, then use this setting to throttle the backup speed to 75% of full speed, or perhaps even slower since USB3 hardware is subject to RF interference. You shouldn’t have to do this if you are able to perform reliable backups when your external USB3 drive is plugged into a motherboard port on the back of the computer, unless you also have a RF device plugged into the back of the computer.

      The upshot is that USB3.1 fixed all of the above issues, whereas USB3 has always been unreliable.

      As far as your second issue, your external USB3 backup drive might be set as an active and bootable drive. That might explain why you were able to boot normally after unplugging it.

       

    • #209642 Reply

      GoneToPlaid
      AskWoody Lounger

      “Just out of curiosity, did you copy your C: drive contents over to the external drive as a backup before the problem started, or did trouble begin when the external drive was brand new and completely empty?” I was trying to use it as a backup drive with Acronis… It wasn’t a backup that required me to sign off – so I don’t think the boot information was on the drive. But yes, I did attempt to get my C and D drives copied over. I think I have finally succeeded…

      Please help us to understand your last two sentences. Did you use Acronis in an attempt to clone your C and D drives? Also, are your original C and D drives actually partitions which physically are on one internal hard drive?

    • #209812 Reply

      dturnidge
      AskWoody Lounger

      I was trying to use it as a backup drive with Acronis… It wasn’t a backup that required me to sign off – so I don’t think the boot information was on the drive. But yes, I did attempt to get my C and D drives copied over. I think I have finally succeeded…

      Please help us to understand your last two sentences. Did you use Acronis in an attempt to clone your C and D drives? Also, are your original C and D drives actually partitions which physically are on one internal hard drive?

      No clone for this drive. The drive is way to big to waste on a clone… I just copied the C and D drives – which were two separate drives.

      • #209951 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Lounger

        No clone for this drive. The drive is way to big to waste on a clone… I just copied the C and D drives – which were two separate drives.

        Hmm…

        When you copied the C and D drives, did you in effect copy all of the drive C partitions to the backup drive, and likewise do the same for the D drive? If so, this might be what made your backup drive bootable.

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