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  • Replace Samsung mSATA SSD for RMA

    Posted on bbearren Comment on the AskWoody Lounge

    Home Forums AskWoody support PC hardware Replace Samsung mSATA SSD for RMA

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    • This topic has 22 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 1 month ago.
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      • #2211853 Reply
        bbearren
        AskWoody MVP

        I have a Samsung 860 EVO mSATA 250GB SSD that is my OS drive.  Samsung Magician says it need a firmware update, but it won’t take a firmware update.  Everything goes through the motions, but when I power on, I’m still on the older firmware.

        I got in tough with Samsung tech support, and we went through all their different procedures one at a time to no avail.  I finally got an email saying that I would have to return the mSATA SSD to them to have the firmware updated.

        I created a full drive image using Terabyte’s Image for Windows, pulled an identical Samsung mSATA from my Windows 7 Pro Dell Latitude D800 (which I haven’t been using), opened my desktop and swapped out the two, then powered up and booted into my TBWinRE USB thumb drive.  I restored the full drive image to the substitute mSATA (which included all partitions and partitioning info), then did a restart and removed the USB thumb drive in the process.

        Just like old times.  I’ve packaged and UPS’d my stubborn drive to Samsung in New Jersey, and was told 5 to 7 business days for a turn around.  Time will tell.

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
        "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      • #2211993 Reply
        CADesertRat
        AskWoody Plus

        Just a guess, but they will probably just replace the SSD. Make sure you use rubber gloves when you get it back LOL. Can’t be too careful now a days.

        Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
        4 Win 10 Pro at 1909 (3 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

      • #2211999 Reply
        satrow
        AskWoody MVP

        Firmware updates (and trim) can be blocked by ‘bad’ Disk/ATA drivers, the ‘old’ W7 drivers are usually all that are needed, the bloatware Intel RST drivers are loaded alongside them anyway but are only needed for SSD caching/RAID.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2212135 Reply
          bbearren
          AskWoody MVP

          Every firmware update I’ve ever done for any hardware was done via rebooting into a firmware-specific mini OS while Windows was offline, much like BIOS/UEFI updates for a motherboard.

          My DH87RL motherboard can begin UEFI update in Windows (which pre-loads the firmware update into a specific file/location for use by the actual firmware update mini-OS) but Windows is uninvolved in the actual firmware update, as it is not yet loaded.

          Samsung Magician does essentially the same routine; downloads and parks the firmware update in a particular location to be utilized when Windows is not loaded.  Samsung Magician does a complete shutdown, whereas Intel’s UEFI update reboots into the UEFI UI for the update, which makes sense.

          Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
          "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
          "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2212072 Reply
        Paul T
        AskWoody MVP

        Can you upgrade firmware in the “new” disk? Should determine whether it’s the disk or drivers.

        cheers, Paul

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2212131 Reply
        bbearren
        AskWoody MVP

        I have 6 drives in my desktop, 4 SSD’s and two SSHD’s.  The SSD’s are all Samsung, 3 are 860 EVO (the mSATA 250GB, a 2.5″ 250GB and a 2.5″ 1TB); the 4th is an M.2 NVMe 250GB mounted on a PCIe adapter.

        The SSHD’s are Seagate (8GB SSD Cache).  All 6 drives use the same suite of drivers:

        Microsoft 10.0.18362.1 6/21/2006
        Details-
        C:\Windows\System32\DRIVERS\disk.sys
        C:\Windows\System32\drivers\EhStorClass.sys
        C:\Windows\System32\drivers\partmgr.sys
        C:\Windows\System32\drivers\phylock.sys
        C:\Windows\System32\DRIVERS\SamsungRapidDiskFltr.sys

        Phylock.sys is a Terabyte Image for Windows driver used only to lock a disk/partition for imaging, and is invoked only by Image for Windows.

        The actual firmware upgrade takes place during power off/power on after the firmware has been downloaded and parked, when the Windows drivers have not yet been loaded.  This is easily confirmed by Samsung’s availability of Linux-based bootable firmware update software for most of their SSD’s provided for download as ISO files.

        In the recent past the 2.5″ 860 EVO 250GB firmware was upgraded successfully by Samsung Magician.  The mSATA is the only problem drive, and there is no ISO file available for download for that particular drive from Samsung.

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
        "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2212162 Reply
        CADesertRat
        AskWoody Plus

        Just curious if you ever use Samsung Magician itself for anything including firmware updates. The reason I ask is that for the last couple of years, every time I open Magician it stops WMI Provider Host. It happens on every computer I have that has an SSD or NVME by Samsung, which is all of them. Have you had that problem?

        WMI-stops

        Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
        4 Win 10 Pro at 1909 (3 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

        Attachments:
        • #2212180 Reply
          bbearren
          AskWoody MVP

          Just curious if you ever use Samsung Magician itself for anything including firmware updates. The reason I ask is that for the last couple of years, every time I open Magician it stops WMI Provider Host. It happens on every computer I have that has an SSD or NVME by Samsung, which is all of them. Have you had that problem?

          No, I have not.  I have Samsung Magician set to handle TRIM, which it does successfully.  I haven’t had any instances of it stopping WMI Provider Host.

          Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
          "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
          "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2212365 Reply
          RetiredGeek
          AskWoody MVP

          I’ve not encountered this problem on any of my 3 computers with Samsung SSD/NVME drives. My main machine has a NVME drive as the boot drive and 2 SSDs for data. All my machines are Dells.

          HTH :cheers:

          May the Forces of good computing be with you!

          RG

          PowerShell & VBA Rule!
          Computer Specs

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2212182 Reply
        G
        AskWoody Plus

        @ CADesertRat: We have a Samsung SSD 860 EVO 500GB (SATA) using Samsung Magician, set to handle TRIM, without problems.  I have used the manual update for software, from within the program) and all is well. The program also indicates a firmware update is available but have NOT updated as some online experienced a “slowdown” after the update.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2212199 Reply
        CADesertRat
        AskWoody Plus

        I have had the same WMI error starting way back on Win 7 and I upgraded that to W10 and still had the error with Samsung Magician installed. I built a brand new computer and installed Magician and it does the same thing as soon as I start Magician. Some time ago (after building this new computer) I tried another forum with a looong thread https://www.sysnative.com/forums/threads/wmi-provider-host-appcrash.26234/  about the WMI error I was getting and finally figured it out as happening as soon as I started Magician. If I exit Magician (still leaving it installed but not running), I do not get the WMI errors.

        @bbearren, Not trying to hijack your thread, just throwing all this out there about Magician in case someone else has the problem and you had Magician mentioned in your post so I will leave it alone after this post.

        Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
        4 Win 10 Pro at 1909 (3 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

      • #2212251 Reply
        Paul T
        AskWoody MVP

        I have Samsung Magician set to handle TRIM

        Why? Windows know about TRIM and does all that is required.

        cheers, Paul

        • #2212463 Reply
          bbearren
          AskWoody MVP

          bbearren wrote: I have Samsung Magician set to handle TRIM Why? Windows know about TRIM and does all that is required.

          A couple of reasons.  Samsung has a feature called Rapid Mode that can be invoked via Samsung Magician.  Windows doesn’t seem to know anything about Rapid Mode.  It increases the drive’s read/write performance significantly.  If there are more than one Samsung SSD’s in the PC, Rapid Mode can only be enabled on a single SSD.  I chose my OS SSD.  It isn’t available on Samsung’s NVMe SSD’s.

          The second reason is that while Windows does indeed know about TRIM, I can’t assume that Windows knows the ins and outs of Samsung’s architecture as well as Samsung, so I’ll give the nod to Samsung.

          The mSATA 860 EVO SSD is rated at 550MB/s Read/520MB/s Write.  With Rapid Mode enabled, CrystalDiskMark shows this:

          mSATA

          For comparison, my NVMe 970 EVO SSD (mounted on a PCIe adapter) is rated at 3,400MB/s Read/1,500MB/s Write.  CrystalDiskMark shows this:

          NVMe

           

          Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
          "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
          "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

          Attachments:
      • #2212446 Reply
        bbearren
        AskWoody MVP

        I received this statement in an email from Samsung’s New Jersey Service Center today:

        “Your Samsung XX-XXX250XX (altered by me) was received on 03/30/2020. You can expect your unit to be repaired within the next 7 days.”

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
        "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      • #2212537 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        bbearren,

        Thanks for this post! It got me to wondering so I downloaded the latest version of Crystal DiskMark 7.0.0h portable and gave it a go. I was utterly surprised by the results. I thought I had Magician enabled on my G: (Data) drive and low and behold I had it enabled on my H: drive which I use for short term backups and testing. I had been wondering for some time why there was a lag opening up Excel, Access and Oulook. So I changed drives (the confusion is the way Magician listed the drives for some reason it lists them in 0,2,1 order at least according to Windows Disk Management. So after a couple of reboots to change the Magician settings all those Office programs leap on to the screen as their data files are all located on the G: drive.

        Here’s the before and after.

        G: drive – Samsung 850 Pro SSD – SATA – Without Rapid Mode
        GDrive-No-Rapid-Mode
        Now with Rapid Mode enabled:
        GDrive-Rapid-Mode
        The interesting part is how slow my Samsung 960 EVO NvMe M.2 boot drive is in comparison!
        Samsung-MVME-M2
        Looks like I should have save the money on that NvMe drive.
        😎

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

        Attachments:
        4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2212588 Reply
        Paul T
        AskWoody MVP

        “Rapid Mode” is just disk cache in RAM, explains the slowdown in random 4k T1.
        This is fine if your machine has plenty of RAM, is on a UPS and doesn’t crash – mine isn’t so I’ll put up with “normal” performance. 🙂

        cheers, Paul

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2212593 Reply
          bbearren
          AskWoody MVP

          “Rapid Mode” is just disk cache in RAM, explains the slowdown in random 4k T1. This is fine if your machine has plenty of RAM, is on a UPS and doesn’t crash – mine isn’t so I’ll put up with “normal” performance.

          I’m DIY, and it all starts with the planning before any parts are ordered.  I have 16GB of RAM, a 600W UPS, it only crashes when I’m tinkerin’, and I’m always prepared for those.

          Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
          "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
          "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

          • #2242627 Reply
            RetiredGeek
            AskWoody MVP

            bbearren,

            16Gb Ram & CyberPower UPS (“Don’t run computers without them!”)

            May the Forces of good computing be with you!

            RG

            PowerShell & VBA Rule!
            Computer Specs

            1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2242587 Reply
        Hobkirk
        AskWoody Plus

        bbearren,

        Thanks for this post! It got me to wondering so I downloaded the latest version of Crystal DiskMark 7.0.0h portable and gave it a go. I was utterly surprised by the results. I thought I had Magician enabled on my G: (Data) drive and low and behold I had it enabled on my H: drive which I use for short term backups and testing. I had been wondering for some time why there was a lag opening up Excel, Access and Oulook. So I changed drives (the confusion is the way Magician listed the drives for some reason it lists them in 0,2,1 order at least according to Windows Disk Management. So after a couple of reboots to change the Magician settings all those Office programs leap on to the screen as their data files are all located on the G: drive.

        Here’s the before and after.

        G: drive – Samsung 850 Pro SSD – SATA – Without Rapid Mode
        GDrive-No-Rapid-Mode
        Now with Rapid Mode enabled:
        GDrive-Rapid-Mode
        The interesting part is how slow my Samsung 960 EVO NvMe M.2 boot drive is in comparison!
        Samsung-MVME-M2
        Looks like I should have save the money on that NvMe drive.
        😎

        The interesting part is how slow my Samsung 960 EVO NvMe M.2 boot drive is in comparison!

        Looks like I should have save the money on that NvMe drive.

        So, I’ve been studying M2 and NVMe and concluded that any new PC should use M2 x4 (or 8) and maybe get NVMe is it is practical.

        You are a serious presence in this Lounge, and seem like a guru to me, so I must ask: why do you think your M2 performance is so poor? In your computer specs, it seems your M2 drive is also a Samsung, but I did not scope out what MB you have, but do you suspect that is the issue?

        I putz along, but I try to understand what’s going on. I found your post because I searched for M2.

        Thanks

      • #2242626 Reply
        RetiredGeek
        AskWoody MVP

        Hobkirk,

        Thanks for the kind words.

        I have absolutely no clue why the NvMe M.2 drive is “relatively” slow. Now that said, it is over 300% faster than the unaided, by the Magician software, 850 Pro drive. It’s a shame that the Magician software doesn’t work on the NvMe drive, that would be a real screamer!

        So my conclusion is that you’re better off with the cheaper SATA drives w/Magician than with the expensive NvMe M.2 drives.

        BTW: the machine is a STOCK Dell XPS 8920. Only the drives have been changed.

        😎

        May the Forces of good computing be with you!

        RG

        PowerShell & VBA Rule!
        Computer Specs

      • #2242732 Reply
        bbearren
        AskWoody MVP

        516 MB/s vs 1782 MB/s read speed

        I have absolutely no clue why the NvMe M.2 drive is “relatively” slow. Now that said, it is over 300% faster than the unaided, by the Magician software, 850 Pro drive. It’s a shame that the Magician software doesn’t work on the NvMe drive, that would be a real screamer!

        I think the difference is in the interface.  SATA is a single lane, so a RAM cache can give an indicated performance increase simply by holding data and feeding it into that single lane.

        NVMe, on the other hand, will typically have 4 lanes, and that (and its built-in cache) is where it gets its advantage in read/write speeds; all 4 lanes can be read/written simultaneously.  That’s where that 516 MB/s vs 1782 MB/s read speed difference comes from.  Samsung’s Rapid Mode would likely have to RAM-cache 4 lanes to work with NVMe.

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
        "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2242768 Reply
        bbearren
        AskWoody MVP

        An update on the OP.  Samsung replaced the original mSATA SSD.  I installed it, restored my complete drive image using my TBWinRE boot USB, then booted into Windows.  The replacement had the older firmware, and it, too, would not take a firmware update.

        Further email exchanges with Samsung Support confirmed that they had not fully understood my original support request, and asked if I wanted to send the replacement back for another look.  I told them that I had two of them, and since the second one (the one I used while the first was RMA’d) was already loose, could I send that one instead, since they both had the same problem.

        Samsung agreed, sent me a new RMA for the second drive, and I returned it.  I got it back late yesterday and decided to tackle the swap this morning.  I made a fresh full drive image since Patch Tuesday had passed.  I checked serial numbers and the returned drive was the same one I sent in.

        After swapping the drives and restoring my fresh image, I booted into Windows and ran Samsung Magician.  The firmware had indeed been updated.  I had to disable then re-enable Rapid Mode because of the change in SSD, and now everything is just fine.

        Next I’ll get an RMA for the drive I just replaced, and get the firmware updated on it, as well.

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
        "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

        • #2257038 Reply
          bbearren
          AskWoody MVP

          After swapping the drives and restoring my fresh image, I booted into Windows and ran Samsung Magician. The firmware had indeed been updated. I had to disable then re-enable Rapid Mode because of the change in SSD, and now everything is just fine. Next I’ll get an RMA for the drive I just replaced, and get the firmware updated on it, as well.

          Got the RMA, returned the drive, and got it (the same drive) back yesterday afternoon.  Today I repeated the steps in the swap, disabled/enabled Rapid Mode, and all is well.

          Kudos for Samsung warranty service, even though they missed the ball on the first pitch, they hit home runs on the next two.  All it cost me was some time, and since I had a spare, only about half an hour downtime for each swap.

          Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
          "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
          "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

          2 users thanked author for this post.
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