• Should we rush to install Windows 11?

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    #2404755

    WINDOWS 11 By Susan Bradley The other day, a reader took me to task for my doom-and-gloom perspective about Windows 11. He said he was on the Windows
    [See the full post at: Should we rush to install Windows 11?]

    Susan Bradley Patch Lady

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    • #2404759

      I was on Insider program as well. MS completely ignored the feedback about the vertical taskbar – they had new emojis to work on. Also, officially, my CPU is not supported (although it’s an i7 and I have both Secure Boot and TPM on). My soundcard is also officially not supported

      There is nothing special about W11 I’d really want – so back to Windows 10 for me.

      ASUS PRIME Z270-K * Intel Core i7-6700 * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB SSD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 21H2 64-bit
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    • #2404764

       

      I don’t understand responses like that. It’s just basic IT knowledge to avoid being an early adopter. Of course things may all go right for some people. That’s just probability. They wouldn’t ship the software if things didn’t go right most of the time. But you have to be prepared for the edge cases, and consider the time cost of upgrading and downgrading. It just makes sense to wait until there are no widespread bugs that would affect you.

      It’s not like this is new: there has always been advice to wait some amount of time or number of releases. For Windows, I’d always heard to wait at least 6 months.

      I agree they messed up on the messaging on Windows 10. Not only did they allow us to think that it was going to be the last version of Windows, but they also promised support for the lifetime of the device. They made it sound like you’d only stop getting updates when your device literally couldn’t run the latest version.

      That said, I don’t agree with you on the messaging for TPM 2.0 and newer processors. Claiming it was for security reasons was exactly the problem, because those of us who are knowledgeable about tech could tell that wasn’t the actual reason. What they should have done is wait until they had a release of Windows that actually needs TPM 2.0, and then they should only require that and not worry about CPUs. They also shouldn’t lie about it being a good time to buy a new PC right now. Heck, they should have just delayed Windows 11 until the supply issues get ironed out. They had the perfect excuse.

      The one reason I think that they would create a new OS at this point with weird requirement would be to sell more PCs. But demand right now is outstripping supply.

      • #2404810

        Claiming it was for security reasons was exactly the problem, because those of us who are knowledgeable about tech could tell that wasn’t the actual reason. What they should have done is wait until they had a release of Windows that actually needs TPM 2.0, and then they should only require that and not worry about CPUs.

        Im not sure, what do you think the TPM is used for? I think TPM is now the primary identifier, that is used for recognizing PC in the Azure for example (or inside your MSFT tennant), its not physical address (MAC) anymore.
        I agree, that this information was somewhow hidden from the majority. This “behind the scenes” was also the culprit, why this change invoked so much pressure against Windows 11, people were basically sceptic about it.

        Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

        HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

        PRUSA i3 MK3S+

      • #2404866

        It’s just basic IT knowledge to avoid being an early adopter.

        It has been my experience over the last couple of decades that a copious amount of “basic IT knowledge” fits much more closely within the category of “old wives tales”.

        I dual boot, and I also create drive images weekly (or more often if I’m piddlin’ in Windows’ innards) so it’s a very simple matter to upgrade the B side and see how it behaves.  Yes, upgrade, because I don’t do clean installs except for purpose-built bare hardware.  I’m typing this response in Windows 11 Pro which is upgraded over Windows 10 Pro over Windows 8.1 Pro over Windows 8 Pro over Windows 7 Ultimate.

        I follow my own advice.  I’ve been at this long enough to know how to keep it bullet-proof.  I prepare for the inevitable.  Stuff wears out, things happen.

        I retired from a Fortune 500 global mining company, not in IT, I’m a geologist.  However, I had plenty of interaction with the IT staff over the years for a number of reasons, not the least of which was the fact that my job required an account in the Administrators group (I had to be able to write to servers).  I also had a standard user account.

        As for “basic IT knowledge”, the local IT guys had a simple procedure for minor hardware repair such as a failed HDD.  They replaced the drive, then loaded it with a standard image file.  Every user had all their personal files on the company servers for the simple reason that a user could go to any location, logon to any workstation, and all their files were right there on that desktop.

        Ctrl+Alt+Del, user ID, password initiated a logon script (part of that standard image) that accessed that user ID’s personal files.  Did IT re-install Windows every year because of the “bloat”?  Nope.  Did Windows slow down over time because of the “bloat”?  Nope.  Software updates were pushed by corporate IT on the weekend.  An email was sent out to all users (thousands) to leave their workstations powered on over the weekend for updates.  They ran Windows 7 Enterprise until the middle of last year, when they upgraded to Windows 10 coinciding with their hardware upgrade schedule (about every four years).  Before Windows 7 it was NT 4.

        In the late ’90’s on a midnight shift walking toward my office after returning from the field, I neared the server room and noticed the door, usually locked, was open, and I could hear conversation.  I stuck my head in and saw the head of local IT and a Verizon tech.  I made a comment to the IT head that I thought he had turned into a ghost, since I hadn’t seen him in a couple of years.  He said, “I don’t get out much anymore, but we’ve got a connectivity issue that Verizon says is our fault.  This is our last stop, and we’re about to confirm that it’s actually Verizon’s fault.”  Shortly after, the Verizon tech looked up from his instruments and said, “Yeah, I’ll get a couple of crews out and start checking the underground from both ends.”  We had T3 between all locations.

        Those guys have always been my personal touchstone for “basic IT knowledge”.  Not to take anything away from the good folks here at AskWoody who are handling IT in businesses, but how many of them are part of a staff that rides herd over literally thousands of PC’s, laptops, workstations?

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do. We don't all have to do the same things.

    • #2404856

      I did noticed when I visited the Windows 11 download page around late November and downloaded the Win11 ISO, it had a slightly different name

      ex. old ISO name > Win11_English_x64.iso
      new ISO name > Win11_English_x64v1.iso

      the “v1” ISOs have build 22000.318 while the “original” ISOs released early October 2021 had build 22000.194

      Microsoft silently updated the Win11 ISO downloads and the Win11 MCT tool also downloads the 22000.318 ESD install media as well. so things are a little more stable with at least 22000.318 than with older builds when I tested out Win11 on a bunch of older PCs using these “revised” Win11 ISO downloads.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if MS may release “v2” Win11 ISO downloads in the future

    • #2404858

      We will consider deploying Windows 11 only when all of our hardware and core software are fully compatible with the new operating system.

      As of now, a number of our PCs do not support Windows 11.

      As of today, the system requirements for Microsoft Office Home & Business 2019 and MathWork’s MATLAB R2021b include Windows 11.

      However, WordPerfect Office 2021 and Dragon Naturally Speakings’ system requirements are silent with respect to Windows 11.

      So, moving to Widows 11 is on hold until such time as it can be used on all of equipment and with all of our software.

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      • #2405255

        You can add AutoCAD to the list of software that is silent related to its compatibility with Windows 11.

    • #2404861

      Hi Susan,

      With so many of us not ready to buy new computers and another four years before Win 10 is officially scrapped, will Patch Watch and DefCon be somehow divided between 10 and 11 so us 10-types do n0t fret about 11 problems?

      Also, a one-liner like “21H2–not yet!” or “21H2—Go for it!” added to all of your Patch Watch and Update articles would be appreciated by your more obsessive followers (like me) who are eager to upgrade as soon as it’s judged safe. Thanks!

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    • #2404870

      I do think that Microsoft is totally blowing the messaging surrounding Windows 11. This goes far back to a presentation given by developer evangelist Jerry Nixon, saying that Windows 10 would be the last version ever.

      He didn’t use the word “ever”:

      “Right now we’re releasing Windows 10, and because Windows 10 is the last version of Windows, we’re all still working on Windows 10.”

      At that time, Windows 10 was the last version.

      Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1682 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

      • #2404988

        susan bradley wrote:

        “Right now we’re releasing Windows 10, and because Windows 10 is the last version of Windows, we’re all still working on Windows 10.”

        b wrote:

        At that time, Windows 10 was the last version.

        Im not native english speaker, I am confused now. Please explain meaning of the word last.
        If I follow your logic, the sentence should have been:

        Right now we’re releasing Windows 10, and because Windows 10 is the latest version of Windows, we’re all still working on Windows 10.

        Why Microsoft did not disprove this rumor, that Windows 10 is the last version of Windows ever? Which is how basically everybody understood that.

        Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

        HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

        PRUSA i3 MK3S+

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    • #2404896

      I’m not sure, what do you think the TPM is used for?

      That’s the rub. We don’t really know yet. Microsoft knows. Intel knows.

      So it must be very, very important. I’m sure we’ll find out soon.

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    • #2404897

      My soundcard is also officially not supported.

      I don’t know what it is about sound cards, but for some reason they go unsupported by Windows very quickly. I had a very nice sound setup in my 2003-era DIY build, but none of that hardware worked in Onyx, my 2015 build. Creative was no help at all.

    • #2404898

      So, moving to Widows 11 is on hold until such time as it can be used on all of equipment and with all of our software.

      We couldn’t agree more.

    • #2404921

      Ultimately, the question is a economic, a matter of cost and benefit.

      Is there anything compelling about Windows 11, of something that’s not in Windows 10? Not that I can see. Maybe there’s some sort of future-proofing that may be useful at some point in the future, but I don’t see anything now that offsets the costs of conversion/upgrade.

      My experience of Microsoft products (both Windows and Office) is that while there may be long-term benefits for Enterprise users, for everybody else, new releases are something that Microsoft needs to sell more than users need to buy.

      If Microsoft has moved to treating SOHO and Home users with Windows 10 as gamma testers, then it seems that their primary intent is getting Win 11 into circulation so that the gamma testers can flush out the issues before Microsoft makes a more serious push for Enterprise adoption sometime in 2022. I think that’s even more of a motivation than in trying to push sales of computers that are replacements of older equipment that won’t support the minimum hardware requirements.

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    • #2404924

      I’m a guinea pig.

      Unless you are a guinea pig, don’t be the first to acquire new software, but don’t be the last either.

      On hiatus {with backup and coffee}
      offline▸ Win10Pro 2004.19041.572 x64 i3-3220 RAM8GB HDD Firefox83.0b3 WindowsDefender WuMgr
      offline▸ Win10Pro 20H2.19042.685 x86 Atom N270 RAM2GB HDD WindowsDefender WuMgr GuineaPigVariant
      online▸ Win11Pro 21H2.22000.675 x64 i5-9400 RAM16GB HDD Firefox101.0b6 MicrosoftDefender WuMgr
    • #2404992

      I’m not sure, what do you think the TPM is used for?

      That’s the rub. We don’t really know yet. Microsoft knows. Intel knows.

      So it must be very, very important. I’m sure we’ll find out soon.

      Microsoft did explain the use of TPM and other new requirements.

      https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/windows-11-security-tpm-and-vbs-hacking-demo/

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    • #2405166

      Microsoft did explain the use of TPM and other new requirements.

      I watched that video. I followed those explanations and understood them, but the video was very much a developer-level talk. 95% of users probably wouldn’t get it.

      Think about it this way. You’ve been running Windows 10 for four years and you’ve never been the victim of an attack. Does that video make you feel that Windows 11 will be any more secure? If you don’t understand this technical stuff, the answer is no. You’d need to take it on faith – this hyper-technical stuff is going way over your head.

      One other thing I recall from the video was the exhortation to turn on things in Windows 10 to enjoy the same level of protections. I thought that was very presumptuous, very self-serving. One second, it’s saying, “Your processor won’t run Windows 11 because of X” and the next second, it’s saying, “Turn things on in Windows 10.”

      Microsoft has yet to provide a consumer-level explanation of what I keep calling the processor line in the sand. Just because a bunch of tech-heads like us generally grasp what’s going on does not mean the broader audience will.

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    • #2405183

      Susan,

      To paraphrase Mark Twain,

      “Most governments and software/hardware companies are liars, and you should never believe anything they tell you.”

      OK, back to my cave. <sigh>

      Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit, Dell Latitude E6330, Intel CORE i5 "Ivy Bridge", 12GB RAM, Group "0Patch", Multiple Air-Gapped backup drives in different locations. Linux Mint Greenhorn
      --
      "Sure I had a plan; Everybody's got a plan until you get hit in the teeth."

      -A Very Famous Boxer

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    • #2405197

      I just don’t to see the need to rush to upgrade to Windows 11. I just see it as Windows 10 with a new user interface. I know, it’s probably a bit more then that with some security perks and other tweaks. But performance wise I see it as a wash compared to Windows 10. Maybe down the road Microsoft will actually improve more things in Windows 11 to make it more attractive? So far, I am just not impressed to jump ship when Windows 10 is still supported for some time yet.

    • #2405343

      However, WordPerfect Office 2021 and Dragon Naturally Speakings’ system requirements are silent with respect to Windows 11.

      Microsoft’s workaround for installing Windows 11 on any (none-compatible) PC is aimed exactly for users to test software compatibility and not waiting for developers software compatibly approval.

      So, install Windows 11 on a compatible/none-compatible/virtual PC and test your software.

      • #2405388

        Alex5723

        Our expertise is using computers and software to conduct market analysis.

        We look to program developers (the experts) to tell us the system requirements for the software.

        Using work arounds to install and test the compatibility of an operating system (Windows 11) will contribute nothing to our analysis and is a waste of our time and resources.

        We can wait for the end of life of Windows 10, if necessary, with no negative impact on our business – unless there is a driving reason to convert sooner.

        Will Windows 11 contribute to a significant improvement in the speed of our systems or provide greater system stability or security?

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2405358

      That was pretty quick! Thanks, Susan, for the one-liner I requested that appeared today in the DefCon alert. In case anyone missed it:

      Follow the prompts to install Windows 10 21H2. I’m comfortable with that version at this time and recommend it.”

       

    • #2405508

      One thought I haven’t seen yet is that my role as an independent consultant is that my clients trust me to keep their systems running trouble-free. They like to be able to be efficient with their workflow and if I recommend a change that causes disruption to their comfortable workflow, I might be the one who would be out of a job.

      What we’re seeing now is a flood of updates to Windows 11. What usually happens when M$ “fixes” one thing? Right, they break something else. And what does that mean? Right, disruption.

      So I’m telling my clients that there is no reason to “upgrade” to Win11 yet. And yeah, I don’t consider the changes that M$ has made to the user interface to be upgrades. It’s “who moved my cheese” all over again. Remember that scenario with Vista, and then Win8? Sure, the changes in Win11 are not as drastic as the changes in Win8, but I gotta tell you that some of the people that work in the offices that I support might be good at the job they do, but they aren’t so good at figuring out where M$ moved the cheese. If an icon isn’t where it used to be, I get a phone call. Yes, I can connect remotely, but I’ve got more interesting projects that I would rather be working on.

      As Susan said, “So play with Windows 11 if you like, but I do not consider it stable enough for everyday use”. And that applies especially for my nitwit clients.

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