Of course, you all know that I’ve long recommended using a local account with Windows 10. I have detailed instructions in both of my Win10 books. Usin
[See the full post at: Should you use a local account or a Microsoft Account on Windows 10?]
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There are isolated problems with current patches, but they are well-known and documented on this site. |
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Should you use a local account or a Microsoft Account on Windows 10?
- This topic has 87 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 7 months ago.
AuthorViewing 27 reply threadsAuthor-
Certainly a local account. As Woody says, there is not much to be gained from using a Microsoft Account. On a phone OS, using a Microsoft Account might make some sense, but on a Desktop OS?
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I wouldn’t consider anything but a local account today.
The concept of handing administrative access to one’s system and data over to a company – even one as trustworthy (hah!) as Microsoft – seems, well, for want of a better word, ridiculous!
Of course, if Microsoft WANTED to they could just send your username and password for your local account in with telemetry. Who knows, if you haven’t blocked telemetry, don’t have a rock solid firewall, or are using any web-integrated services (Skype anyone?) maybe they are already sending it in. We can’t really know.
If a Microsoft account is what’s needed to participate in the wonderful world of Apps, well, you might say, who needs Apps? Easy to say, but unfortunately this won’t keep. There will come a day when someone invents software and/or an online service that really IS a “Must Have”, but requires one to hand over one’s account management to have it. I hope that’s still a while off at least.
What if every high tech company required you to turn over your most private data to use any of the tech. Would we all go back to the stone age together or just give in and hope for the best? I know what the masses would do.
-Noel
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Umm… most of the tech companies do this already. (Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter…)
Exactly. A rhetorical question, designed to make people think.
You’ll note my post above specifically does not suggest that “using a local account” will be viable forever.
People today are faced with a choice: Jump on the “modern” bandwagon and embrace Windows 10, or stay on an older system that’s meeting your needs for some time longer. The former pick might involve having to “give in” and use a Microsoft Account sooner than later.
By the way, an anecdote: I was a Microsoft Win 10 pre-release tester from the start. Some time into the program, I wrote some things on the Answers forum about Windows 10 that were true, but to which a Microsoft-employed moderator took exception, and I was banned. Lo and behold, with that Microsoft Account – the only account I’m ever supposed to need – I’m now forever excluded from logging into the Microsoft Answers forum. A permanent exclusion from using some Microsoft services – I’ll bet THAT’s an implication of using a Microsoft account most folks wouldn’t expect.
-Noel
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You are right there Noel but isn’t it just a case of creating a new Microsoft Account? I know some of your comrades on that forum ended up doing that after being banned.
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Noel, I wasn’t trying to be combative in my reply only stating what I saw occurring last year. The whole thing was totally unfair as there were many truths being told by many and they were either banned or scoffed at and it made me so angry (I was cheering for you guys silently).
I know by being banned, you lose all the MS brownie points you gained because you have to start anew with a new account and you then have to rebuild your reputation again.
I agree, it’s not worth creating account after account but if you accept their rules that’s all there is.
…and yes, it is their loss Noel but our gain! Thank you for imparting your knowledge and expertise.
gts
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I did not take any part of your response confrontationally. I hope mine don’t come across that way. That’s never my intent.
🙂
-Noel
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Office 2016 is such a pain to try to install without an online account when you buy OEM.
Microsoft makes it very hard to do and it autoconnects you at some point. If you try to avoid it, you really need to know some things at some point because they don’t even provide an option for you to retrieve your real product key by following their instructions.I will post a link on how to do that later if I have time in the Office section. In fact, I will post a link on how to have a customized click-to-run installation so you can avoid installing everything if you don’t want to.
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For me, local account as long as sustainable. I want no part of this new promised world of cloud first on my desktop and I wouldn’t use any other Microsoft product like Xbox or mobile devices to not reward them for their bullying behavior on their traditional desktop users.
I hope I will never have to use their store, but like Noel, I am worried that one day they will make it impossible to avoid.
1 user thanked author for this post.
For home / small office workstations I take this a few steps further.
1) On new setup: Create a local Admin account. Finish setup and install your base applications and AV, etc.
2) Now create your user account as a LOCAL account, with Standard user permissions (NOT admin!)
3) Repeat step 2 as needed for adult family members that need their own accounts.
4) If you must, convert your account to a MSA. I leave that decision to the reader but I largely agree with the advice given by Woody and Paul T.
5) If you have children, and want to use Microsoft Family Safety, then you need to convert the child’s local account to a MSA. No way around this, and the benefits for this specific use case may be worth it to you as parent.
Never – ever – grant your MSA local admin permissions on your workstation.
Edit: The exception to the above warning: if you must be on a preview/slow/fast ring on a test machine. You are committed to giving the MSA admin privileges. I would not advise that on a production machine.
The primary reason to start with a local Admin account (and create your real user accounts as a Standard User) is this is one of the very best ways to mitigate potential drive by malware drops.
Some rules: don’t surf the net nor open email from the Admin account you create. Think twice if you are ever prompted for that admin accounts password when you do not expect it. If you are browsing the net, reading email, opening an attachment or a document and you see that password request . . . you know it’s time to close all applications and run a virus scan.
And if your standard user account profile gets a non-admin level infection it’s really easy to clean that up from the Admin account. Unless you fall for the prompt that asked for an admin password the infection won’t get root access.
~ Group "Weekend" ~
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The only thing I would add to your scheme is that there may be times when an adult user account may need some service or app which works better with a Microsoft Cloud Account login. I find these to be rare events in my own Windows 10 usage, but it can happen. The solution is to temporarily convert to a MS Account Login, then revert to Local Account (Don’t forget the password and hint you used!) when finished with Cloud-centric activities.
Another approach is to create a separate User Account which is always a MS Account login, but only use that Account when using Cloud-centric apps or other activities which require the use of the MS Account.
And clean your tracks with Glary Utilities and/or CCleaner (CCleaner must be run on a per-account basis!) after using an MS Account (or doing anything involving online activities). You can skip the Registry stuff, but the tracks should be cleaned frequently. (My Chrome Browser has Click And Clean to do the job in there. Firefox can do its own end of session cleanup natively.)
Also, I use O&O ShutUp10 (or its equivalent settings) for all accounts.
Bottom Line is — whenever possible, I stay with Local Accounts. And when cleaning up or doing system maintenance, I stay offline entirely (disable Wireless Networking). And keep backup drives offline at all times.
MS Store Apps do not necessarily need an MS Account login to function — I use several of these without logging in at all.
-- rc primak
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Sorry @Clairvaux, but I think you misunderstand the philosophy behind the 2 user accounts, one non-admin (work, regular account) and another one admin account only for admin tasks and not for running Firefox and other applications that you listed.
You use your non-admin account for everything day-to-day but when you are required to do something administrative like installing software, you do not log in as that admin user, butRun As
that admin user.
There would be times when you have to log in as that admin user, but this is rather rare and in those cases you are better off logging in as the BUILTIN Administrator, the one which is disabled by default and is totally unrestricted, like in Windows XP. If you decide to enable and use that builtin administrator, don’t forget to set a reasonable password to it, as by default is none.
Enteprise/Domain Admins follow the procedures above all the time.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Another approach is to create a separate User Account which is always a MS Account login, but only use that Account when using Cloud-centric apps or other activities which require the use of the MS Account.
I forgot I do this too . . . for precisely the same reasons you outlined. Good catch!
~ Group "Weekend" ~
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Doing so allows malware and drive-by attacks direct Root level access to your system areas.
-- rc primak
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Isn’t that what UAC is for?
The average user, in my experience, has NO idea what UAC is all about. They just click “Yes” every time it comes up so the notice box goes away and they can continue with whatever they’re doing.
3 users thanked author for this post.
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UAC is actually meant to prevent an automated process (malware) to run as administrator, unless further authorised by a user.
On the legal side, if the user clicks yes, Microsoft is absolved of formal responsibility because the user authorised that process to run.I understand your point of view and I know a lot of people doing the same, but hey, should they administer a computer running a complicated operating system in the first place? 🙂
I said elsewhere, iOS has found the right answer and it may be the case for Chromebooks which received a lot of praise from Woody in few posts.
General use Linux is NOT the answer for those who don’t understand Windows.1 user thanked author for this post.
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Here are two new articles dated February 21, 2017 about increasing European pressure on Microsoft and it “privacy” implications. This is after MS announced some changes that only worked with a web-based interface.(and I suspect a MS account).
Maybe there is some hope, but I suspect it would not fly in the US.
http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/21/14682256/microsoft-windows-10-eu-privacy-concerns
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Interesting that Paul Thurrott doesn’t mention ANY disadvantage of signing in to Windows 10 with a Microsoft Account. (Just three advantages; Settings sync, Convenience, Edge sync/convenience.)
And Woody can only come up with, “Using a Microsoft Account to sign in to Windows 10 gives Microsoft (yet another) way to collect information about you”, which sounds like FUD/guesswork. (More info about you than if you only use your MSA to sign in to apps separately?)
Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge
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Never – ever – grant your MSA local admin permissions on your workstation.
Why?
I should have clarified more, since part of my original topic was about malware prevention using standard versus admin level user accounts.
My advice about not granting a MSA account local admin permissions (with some exceptions if you are a Microsoft ring tester) is based on the fact that as admin – MSA allows anyone that might compromise your online account total access to your machine – including the right to remotely access things. I’ve personally seen this happen exactly once, but still – it burned. That episode happened when someone enabled the remote file access feature through One Drive, and their MSA was a local admin account, and their MSA was hacked. The ID thief logged onto that machine and extracted saved banking passwords from the victims browser using Nirsoft tools. They were also able to add a system startup malware entry because as admin, they had access to parts of the C: drive that a standard user would not.
There were so many other mistakes made that led to this, but you hopefully get the reasoning behind my advice.
~ Group "Weekend" ~
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More evidence that 99% of the current Windows users are not qualified to maintain and manage Windows and would be better served by an appliance connecting to the Cloud.
There is a good reason why iOS does not allow running as root, unless jailbreaking the device, in which case Apple declines any responsibility for that device.1 user thanked author for this post.
I think you misunderstand the philosophy behind the 2 user accounts.
Yes, that philosophy must be very profound for me to misunderstand it. Maybe it’s the philosophers who don’t do their explaining exactly right ?
There’s an embedded help in Windows 7 (and there might as well be one, given the price of the product). Nowhere does it begin to address that issue. Here is what it says :
When you are logged on to Windows with a standard account, you can do almost anything that you can do with an administrator account, but if you want to do something that affects other users of the computer, such as installing software or changing security settings, Windows might ask you to provide a password for an administrator account.
So : masters of confusion. This last sentence conflates, oh, maybe four different things : change accounts and log into your admin account (that’s the obvious way to interpret it given the context), stay in your non-admin account but react to an UAC alert which will temporarily elevate your rights, deliberately choose to run a program as administrator without any prodding from the OS, and now this mysterious extra-secret built-in administrator account, which we are not supposed to know about, but you are telling me I should use rather than the normal, advertised administrator account (when ? why ? how ?).
When you set up Windows, you were required to create a user account. This account is an administrator account that allows you to set up your computer and install any programs that you’d like to use. Once you finish setting up your computer, we recommend that you create a standard account and use it for your everyday computing. If you create new user accounts, you should also make them standard accounts. Using standard accounts will help keep your computer more secure.
Straight from the horse’s mouth, and downright false. If you’re not an Enterprise/Domain Admin and are just learning about this admin / non-admin thing, I defy you to interpret this in another way than : you need to log to your admin account to install software. Indeed, that’s one of the main reasons why I was reluctant for so long to abandon my admin account-only setup : because I’m installing software all the time. When I finally took the plunge, I was flabbergasted to realise that all it took was to clear an UAC alert with a short password — which is totally acceptable for a software install.
And that was after researching the subject for months, reading reams of advocacy threads specialised in coaxing you into the non-admin religion, etc. The dominant tone was : yeah, you’re going to suffer, but it’s for your own good.
…admin account only for admin tasks and not for running Firefox and other applications that you listed.
Let’s put things in the right order. I don’t use my computer to “run Firefox or other applications”. I use it to do… things. And in order to do those things, I need applications. For instance, a browser. Is there anything you can do on a computer nowadays without using a browser ?
Say I have a driver issue. If repairing that is not an administrative task, I don’t know what is. In order to download drivers (or just determine which one is needed), I need a browser. Heck, even changing the settings on my router requires a browser !
Word ? Of course, I need Word ! In order to bring administrative tasks to fruition, I need to have my technical notes on hand. Which were written in Word. And so on and so forth.
This idea of depriving you of your best tools just when you need them most is really ridiculous. Imagine a surgeon embarking on a particularly delicate procedure, and the hospital manager barging in : no ! you can’t have your usual, nice set of tools you are accustomed to ! take this drill and hack saw, and be over with it !
…You use your non-admin account for everything day-to-day but when you are required to do something administrative like installing software, you do not log in as that admin user, but Run As that admin user.
I know and use Run As (sometimes). Trying to understand your point of view, is it the following :
> There’s no real way to duplicate your set of software, personnalisation and user data from your non-admin account to your admin account ;
> However, there’s no real need to do this, since almost anything that would require logging in to your admin account can be done from your non-admin one, through mostly benign elevation (responding to UAC alerts, running as admin), and you get to work with your usual set of software, personnalisation and user data ;
> For the rare case where you do need to log as admin, it is better to do it through the embedded, and disabled by default, Administrator account, because it’s totally UAC-free ?
If this is the case, well, I’ve never seen it put that way. Either people dismiss the importance of using your familiar environment when doing so-called administrative work, or they say : yeah, it’s important, but you won’t be able to keep it, so be a geek (or a sysadmin) and deal with it.
And there’s this false view, universally promoted by Microsoft and Microsofties, that in a home setting, the admin account is for the head of the family, while everybody else gets relegated to crippled user status :
Assigning an appropriate account type to the people who use your computer is straightforward. At least one user must be an administrator ; naturally, that should be the person who administers the computer. All other regular users should each have a standard user account. Use a guest account if you have guests or occasional users; that way, they can use your computer without gaining access to your files.
This, from Ed Bott, one of the best Microsoft tutors around, in a 1 400-pages book with 40 of them devoted to the issue of user accounts. He does go on to qualify this, by stressing how easier it has been made to stay under non-admin since Windows 7, and advising to have both types of account even if you are the “administrator”. But he doesn’t stress that you don’t need your environment in the admin account, since you can have it in non-admin, and, most of the time, elevate from there — if, indeed, this is the case.
The whole, ahem, “philosophy” of having admin accounts which are extraordinarily important, but which you are encouraged to almost never use by cheating into them, is so counter-intuitive and confusing as to require a great deal more of explaining.
And I still don’t know how to update my Start Menu without typing a zillion UAC passwords. I’ve just tried to run Windows Explorer as admin, but no, that would have been too easy, I suppose.
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I’m not going to get into splitting hairs over what a user account can do vs. and administrator account. The distinctions are well known among Windows users, and published at Microsoft’s sites.
What I can tell you is that you are taking a few sentences in Microsoft’s descriptions way out of context.
Let it suffice to say that Standard User accounts are restricted and that current malware does not as easily break through these restrictions as if it were running in an administrator account. I have personally seen this distinction working in my use of Windows, as have others.
It’s not as though using an administrator account grants unlimited powers. There are some tasks which even a normal Admin account cannot do. For those tasks, or for a long series of Root level commands, special techniques and tools are required.
Most everyday Windows users probably will not need to do things requiring special methods, but I just wanted to point out that even administrator accounts are not unrestricted. They are however, much less restricted than Standard User Accounts.
-- rc primak
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Some criticize my choice, but I have never experienced a downside to disabling UAC entirely, while reaping the benefits in productivity from not being blocked from doing what I need to do on a daily basis. I always ran Vista and Win 7 that way, I run Win 8.1 that way, and I have a Win 10 config that runs that way (without Apps of course). No one has more stable systems and I’ve only ever installed each OS on hardware once.
Of course, I don’t claim disabling UAC is for everyone. It IS however, a great loss in Windows 8 and newer that there is no way – as there was with 7 – to choose supported settings to achieve that goal! Windows has been dumbed-down so that it can no longer provide what a true power user needs.
Some would say “it’s for the greater good because too many people just get in trouble with the ability to disable it”, and would point out that I’m evidence that a geek can actually accomplish it anyway, so why complain?
They have a point, but it’s clear evidence that Microsoft is moving away from serious general purpose computing – which is what the people who engineer the world’s products need.
Why isn’t there an expensive “Ultimate” or “Workstation” version that provides all the power that’s really there, and shuns the ad-based, privacy-invading revenue? I’d pay for it, and I know a lot of others who would too.
I always figured there’d remain serious capabilities in the system because Microsoft needs to engineer further versions of Windows itself using Windows. I didn’t imagine they’d stagnate into just coding second rate Apps and call that “operating system development”.
-Noel
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This is essential to understand for everyone reading your posts.
Of course, I don’t claim disabling UAC is for everyone.
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I ALWAYS use a local account – I never use a Microsoft account.
But that’s just because I want as little of my data as possible going out from my computer to who-knows-where.
But that may not bother you, so you might want to have a Microsoft account, along with “cloud” storage, Office 365, the whole works.
I can see some scenarios where you might want all of this:
* A church youth group shares news and posts among the members of the group. No sensitive information is involved.
* You have identical computers in two location (e.g. at work and at home), and you want to easily “pick up right where you left off” when you go from one computer to the other. Again, no sensitive information is involved.The only way this will work is if there is no sensitive information on any of the computers.
There are much better (i.e. much more secure) ways to share information, so I think most people would prefer the more secure alternatives. I know I would.
The only times I have ever worked this way is when it was related to my job: in all of those cases, I had secure ways to log into the company network.
Jim
Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 8.1 running in a VM2 users thanked author for this post.
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This looks exactly the same as Windows 7 (and 8) to me.
You are not getting this right here. I am not providing details, but while UAC in Windows 10 behaves exactly like on Windows 8, it does not behave exactly like in Windows 7.
It may “look” exactly the same though.
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Spend the time to find out. 😉
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Local account only for sure. I don’t use Windows “apps” or any Microsoft cloud services, so there is no need to stay connected.
As a rule, I don’t stay logged into any social networks either, unless I am actively using them. If you use your Facebook account to log into everything else, you are very “connected” 🙂
My email client only logs into my email server long enough to retrieve new messages.
I use Google and Dropbox, but don’t stay logged in there either.
I view signing in to anything to be on an “as needed” basis only. Like this forum, for example 🙂
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
“Some criticize my choice, but I have never experienced a downside to disabling UAC entirely . . .”
Well, I’m glad that’s worked for you, but it sounds analogous to “I like to drive 100mph without wearing a seat belt, and so far I haven’t crashed into anything.”
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So what has changed in this respect with Windows 8/10?
You SERIOUSLY didn’t know that no matter the settings you choose, UAC is on all the time in Win 8 and 10 (unless a registry or group policy tweak is done)?
Depending on what you are doing with your computer system, there is a usability difference between Windows 7 with UAC turned off via settings vs. Windows 8+’s most permissive setting.
Ever have Explorer refuse to copy a file to where you want it? There are some things you just can’t do directly. Beyond permissions issues, file system and registry virtualization mean that the system second guesses where you’re working and secretly puts things in other places because “it knows better”.
-Noel
“Some criticize my choice, but I have never experienced a downside to disabling UAC entirely . . .” Well, I’m glad that’s worked for you, but it sounds analogous to “I like to drive 100mph without wearing a seat belt, and so far I haven’t crashed into anything.”
It didn’t “work for me” by accident, I can assure you. Is it so hard to imagine that someone could be adept enough at using a product that the training wheels actually slow them down? Or that someone could understand and set up a security environment well enough to have malware protection in entirely another league beyond what everyone gets out of the box? Not everyone falls off Niagara Falls because there’s no guard rail. Some just enjoy the better view. Hey, I’m just trying to share what I know here. When I try to learn to do things better I am more likely to ask “how did you manage that?” instead of trying to find fault. Your mileage may vary. Mine does, especially above 100 mph.
-Noel
Noel, I apologize if my reply seemed snide, as I value the standard of civility that is observed in the AskWoody forums and I hope I did not run afoul of it.
UAC is a core security benefit of modern Windows, and in my experience, it is a negligible inconvenience. When I am building up PCs for my employer, I use our local admin account to install drivers and software. For Win7, a user profile transferred with USMT places a command prompt at the top level of the (otherwise empty) Start Menu. With that, I can right click, choose Run as Administrator, approve the UAC prompt, then install most of what I need to without further prompts, using batch files. In 8.x and 10, Windows key+a fires up an admin command prompt, a slightly shorter route to the same useful destination.
On my production 8.1 PC, I run as a Standard user and elevate through UAC when necessary, a slight inconvenience.
Please consider the possibility that we’ve all benefited from herd immunity, i.e., that with the OS attack surface reduced because of UAC, Windows is a less attractive target, leading crackers to turn their attention elsewhere (Flash, infected PDFs, JRE etc.). Thus we may find an ethical aspect to observing best practices, as it benefits not only ourselves but the broader ecosystem as well.
I’m not suggesting how you should run your own environment, merely offering some food for thought.
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It’s always reasonable to question what seems at odds with what others are saying.
I never take offense because debate is healthy – it’s how we all learn. 🙂
I’m proud to say I’ve never contracted a digital infection nor spread malware, and I hope for that to be the case with everyone.
-Noel
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