• Tell me again – how is the “new” Win10 updating method better than the old one?

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    #111609

    Many of you know that I’ve been scratching my head about the announcement that the emperor has new… er, that Win10 1703 is getting a new layer of pa
    [See the full post at: Tell me again – how is the “new” Win10 updating method better than the old one?]

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    • #111637

      My first experience with the latest is that… It won’t. Update that is.

      Perhaps they have made the Windows Update process now contingent on communications (e.g., telemetry) that I have blocked, or don’t like that I’m using a local account. Perhaps it’s just buggy.

      A bit of background: I had installed the Creator’s Update from the v1703 ISO and I had gotten it to update itself, using the [Check for Updates] button in Settings, to build 15063.138 with no runs, no drips, no errors. Smooth as silk, just as with all prior Windows 10 builds. But no, I had to go directly to the CATALOG and download a .msu file to get it to update to 15063.250.

      I have NOT been able to get it to update itself properly to 15063.250 through the normal Windows Update process; it always emits a cryptic hex code error (e.g., 0x800704cf or 0x80070426). Note that every communication listed to the update and certificate servers was ALLOWED (green arrows in the firewall window):

      UpdateFailed

      Upon reverting this VM to version 1607 via a snapshot and attempting the update, it promptly SUCCEEDED and updated itself from 14393.969 to 14393.1066, so I know there are no cobwebs in the wires.

      Reverting it 15063.0 and trying to update again also fails. THIS worked before, so that tends to make me think there are problems on Microsoft’s side.

      Really makes one think Windows 10 v1703 is not NEARLY ready for prime time.

      I was *almost* ready to start seriously considering putting Windows 10 on my actual hardware workstation. I even spent some money on graphics card hardware that would make it more compatible. But how can I justify taking that leap if Microsoft insists on breaking things that were working? What if I can no longer update this system except through the catalog?

      Perhaps this is a gift horse; many folks I’m sure would welcome a steadfast refusal by Windows 10 to self-update, where there is still an ability to manually update.

      Let me be clear, it’s not that I require auto updates, it’s that I require to know WHY something isn’t working. How can I base a business system on a moving, undocumented target? How can I choose a system that makes me continue to work so hard to just have it do the things it’s always done? And no, the way Microsoft delivers it out of the box isn’t acceptable.

      -Noel

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      • #111671

        I was *almost* ready to start seriously considering putting Windows 10 on my actual hardware workstation. I even spent some money on graphics card hardware that would make it more compatible.

        Gosh, Noel, you? YOU???!!! Kindly give me 3 reasons for installing W10… ūüôā

        All the software still works with 8.1. That’s enough NOT to update :D.

        Antec P7 Silent * Corsair RM550x * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i5-11400F * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200 MHz CL16 * Sapphire Radeon 6700 10GB * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit
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        • #111679

          Took the words out of my mouth.

          WHY? WHY? What is the justification to waste time and resources to this nonsense? What is the justification?

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        • #111708

          Rhetoric aside, one needs to consider how to live with a new OS or just fall out of date with current applications.

          It will happen slowly, but you will find more and more things you won’t be able to do ideally on an older system.

          Adobe software, for example, traditionally requires an up-to-date system to get the best out of it. It would be silly for them to ignore the latest GPU tech in their current development, and it would be silly of me.

          It would be irresponsible to ignore the current OS without knowing whether it can be made viable, and that just takes a bit of elbow grease. I’ve been doing it this way for a long time, and determining that I could turn Windows 8.1 into a dynamite desktop system led me to my current setup, which is now the best computing environment I have ever built.

          I am continuously weighing all the factors, including how difficult it has been to turn each Win 10 release into a workhorse so far (which I HAVE been able to do), against the ever increasing – if a bit tenuous – value of keeping current.

          Make no mistake, my preferred setup resembles a Win 7 desktop more than anything about Win 10.

          -Noel

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          • #111761

            Rhetoric aside, one needs to consider how to live with a new OS or just fall out of date with current applications.

            Fair point, but I guess there are MANY people who haven’t even touched 8/8.1 and jumped from 7 straight to 10. Did they regret not “wasting” time on getting to know W8? I guess not :).

             

            It will happen slowly, but you will find more and more things you won’t be able to do ideally on an older system.

            Again – are there any people that can regret they haven’t updated to 8.1 or 10?

            Adobe software, for example, traditionally requires an up-to-date system to get the best out of it. It would be silly for them to ignore the latest GPU tech in their current development, and it would be silly of me.

            Does Adobe work 10%, 20%, 30% faster on W10 than on W8.1 or W7? Are there any groundbreaking (if any) features available for W10 and not for 8.1/7?

            From the software side (DX 11.2 is amazing, you HAVE to update to Windows 8; OK we were slightly misleading but DX 12 is REALLY something you NEED to have, update to Windows 10) only those few MS games that require DX12 (for no obvious reasons other than forcing people to use W10) and a few rather useless Store apps there is no software I am aware of that would work significantly worse or would not work at all on 8.1 or 7. We are soon 2 years after W10 debut and I am not aware of any non-MS game that would require DX 12 or that would be significantly better when using DX 12 Рand this was to be THE selling point of W10.

            determining that I could turn Windows 8.1 into a dynamite desktop system led me to my current setup, which is now the best computing environment I have ever built.

            All of us know that 8.1 was the last reasonable desktop OS from MS – the one that was polished (for as much as MS can polish an OS – and, taking into account the number of factors they have to tick, I’d say they’d been not bad until 2015) before launch, not after it. Still, looking at the amount of work you put into it – do you really believe it was worth it? I like 8.1 over 7 but only because:

            a/ I got it cheap (50 USD)

            b/ I learnt how to use it because I have it at work anyway

            c/ it takes me roughly 10 minutes after clean install to tweak it to my liking

            If not for the above, I could well live with W7.

            Make no mistake, my preferred setup resembles a Win 7 desktop more than anything about Win 10. -Noel

            If kernel improvements are next to none, why bother to fight (and in case of W10 it really is “fight”) with the new OS, just to get something very similar and marginally better than W7 (or maybe even Vista SP2 for that matter)?

            This whole post is not to say you’re wrong, rather a point to discuss if W10 is worth the time and hassle… I prefer to spend time saved with my family, doing sports or killing Nazis in FPS games :).

            I do notice that W10 is slightly faster in games, there might be 2-3 things about it I like, but the disadvantages waaaaaaaay overweigh any advantages it gives, especially now with 6-months publishing cycle.

            Remember all the Apple guys having a laugh at Windows users that they simply use their computers and we have to reinstall Windows every few months? Now Microsoft decided to force it on us – and people will be clean installing OS every half a year, having a fresh install and writing how much faster W10 is than W7 they used to have for 3 years or more sometimes.

             

            I came across a Vista screenshot yesterday and look at MS work:

            a/ this is 2006 (with hardware being much less powerful than today):

            b/ and this is ELEVEN years later:

            ūüôā

            Antec P7 Silent * Corsair RM550x * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i5-11400F * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200 MHz CL16 * Sapphire Radeon 6700 10GB * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit
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            • #111774

              Remember all the Apple guys having a laugh at Windows users that they simply use their computers and we have to reinstall Windows every few months? Now Microsoft decided to force it on us ‚Äď and people will be clean installing OS every half a year, having a fresh install and writing how much faster W10 is than W7 they used to have for 3 years or more sometimes.

              I’m not sure why anyone would be forced to clean install Windows 10 every six months.

              Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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            • #111788

              OK, you caught me. I was writing too quickly. What I meant is those that are usually claiming biggest speed benefits are those “enthusiasts” that would usually clean install each build on a separate partition and be surprised it’s faster than their previous W8.1 or W7 (sometimes on another partition, being there for 2+ years).

              Of course, you are not forced to clean install every feature update – I never do it on my Windows 10 phone. And probably most “normal” desktop users don’t do it as well. But I’d do it for my main operating system.

              Antec P7 Silent * Corsair RM550x * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i5-11400F * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200 MHz CL16 * Sapphire Radeon 6700 10GB * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit
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            • #111983

              I’m not sure why anyone would be forced to clean install Windows 10 every six months.

              He’s speaking of “anyone who would want it to work as well as it possibly can“.

              Going all the way back, people in the know have found Microsoft operating systems to work best and most reliably if they were clean installed, NOT installed as upgrades.

              It may actually be an impossible task to make sure every single program a user could have installed is compatible (especially in combination) with a new OS release. Common failures include antivirus packages, shell extensions, or anything that uses undocumented features.

              Thus an “in-place upgrade” isn’t the panacea of goodness Microsoft Marketeers might want us to think it is.

              IMO one of the most boneheaded moves by Microsoft is to base their success strategy on people regularly going through such upgrades.

              That being said, in my own case I’ve maintained a Win 10 system since the days of the previews through in-place upgrades. With a very well maintained system, where I pay attention to things like SFP reporting no problems and am careful about what’s installed, I’ve been able to succeed so far.

              However, I can’t say my Creator’s test setup works perfectly right now, though. Whether the Windows Update glitches I’m seeing are because it was an upgrade to an existing system or from some other root cause I can’t yet say, but it’s possible I’ll need to cleanly reinstall it to get it working right again – and I only use a subset of what’s delivered.

              -Noel

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            • #111989

              He’s speaking of “anyone who would want it to work as well as it possibly can“.

              It may actually be an impossible task to make sure every single program a user could have installed is compatible (especially in combination) with a new OS release. Common failures include antivirus packages, shell extensions, or anything that uses undocumented features.

              Thus an ‚Äúin-place upgrade‚ÄĚ isn‚Äôt the panacea of goodness Microsoft Marketeers might want us to think it is.

              A clean install rules out any program compatibility issues with a Windows 10 feature update?

              If you want your Windows 10 to work as well as it possibly can, why haven’t you been clean installing the feature updates?

              Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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            • #112009

              If you want your Windows 10 to work as well as it possibly can, why haven’t you been clean installing the feature updates?

              Because A) who has time for that several times a year?, B) I have wanted to see whether the in-place upgrade process has a prayer of working, and C) I don’t have Windows 10 on a critical system – it’s not up to the task.

              I’ve been pleasantly surprised that the in-place upgrade process hasn’t completely fallen on its face, but I AM rather miffed that it causes the reinstallation of a lot that I don’t care to have installed.

              The entire problem is that Microsoft thinks that a new version of the OS should be released every 6 months. Even a year to 2 years would be much better – i.e., the more intelligent choice made by the people who worked at Microsoft when Service Packs were a reality.

              -Noel

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            • #111790

              I’d say it’s because the older programmers are out the door, pushed out really, for the younger generation of stupidity. As you see today Windows is bloated with nothing but bloatware and the coding is perhaps 10,000x more lines where is shouldn’t be.

              Programmers in the day had a lot more respect, and on a community standpoint there was a lot of sharing and helping. You’d never see that today. It’s become all greed and selfishness.

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          • #111785

            @ Noel & rado

            M$’s Windows achieved market-monopoly status from the 2000s onward. Corporations and some consumers have been locked into the Windows ecosystem, eg many business software and online games are only available for Windows.

            M$ make most of their $$$$ for Windows license sales from corporations and not from consumers, eg sales and lease of Win 7/8.1 Enterprise Volume Licenses(VL) and sales of Software Assurance/Insurance(SA). SA assures/insures “free” Windows upgrades within 3 years of purchase. Corporate lessees are required to buy the 3-year-term SA.
            . . Hence, M$ always kow-tow to the needs of their corporate customers and often ignore the complaints or feedback from their consumer customers, eg the “special” list of supported Intel Skylake processors on new business PCs running Win 7/8.1.

            The processor-blocking of Intel Kabylake and AMD Ryzen was M$ trying to push corporate buyers of Win 7/8.1 Ent VL onto Win 10 “prematurely, so that M$ could make more $$$$ from the sale of Win 10 Ent VL. Corporations often need to buy new business PCs as replacements or for business expansion since most of them had expected to use their Win 7/8.1 Ent VL for about 10 years, ie until EOL in 2020/2023.

            Come 2020/2023, most of the “trapped” corporations will have little choice but to upgrade to Win 10 Ent VL. Because each Win 10 Version has an EOL of only 2 years and not 10 years like before, most of the corporations will have little choice but to lease or subscribe, instead of buy, Win 10 Ent VL which can be perpetually upgraded, similar to or like Office 365 subscriptions.
            . . Of course, a few rich corporations may choose to buy the very expensive Win 10 Ent VL LTSB which has an EOL of 10 years, eg for OS or business operational stability.
            . . So, if nothing changes, this is the stark reality facing corporations and consumers come 2020/2023, ie wrt Win 10, “Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated” – The Borg(Star Trek).
            .
            .
            Yes, people should upgrade to the latest OS in order to use the latest features and hardware. This applies to Windows, MacOS and Linux. The problem with Win 10 is that it will be a market-monopoly after 2020/2023 and it has forced updates/upgrades, ads, Telemetry & Data Collection(NSA spyware ?), bloatware, etc. MacOS and Linux do not.

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            • #111792

              Look, people should care less for NSA system exploitations! The government has every right to implement exploits for the pure fact of national security. The NSA gives no cents about you. The NSA only cares for those who are a significant threat to the country or criminals in general. People complaining about how NSA is breaking constitutional rights are lacking intelligence.

              People need to be MORE vocal about BUSINESS spying, which BUSINESS has ZERO right and zero constitutional right.

              IT IS BUSINESS, is in fact, who is going against your constitutional rights and human right of privacy.

              The collection of Telemetry, Data Collection and other information from Microsoft is illegal. Those who think it is not clearly do not respect privacy and do not respect that data that a user generates belongs to the user who generated it and is not up for sale.

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            • #111850

              The collection of Telemetry, Data Collection and other information from Microsoft is illegal.

              Which law does it contravene?

              Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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            • #111914

              I am not too worried about the NSA themselves even if I don’t think they should have access to my data (which is debatable). I do, however, worry that the NSA is not very good at protecting my data or the means they have to access it and given the choice I would just prefer they don’t have that many tentacles everywhere in this age where it is too easy to steal data even from the most powerful.

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            • #111985
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    • #111641

      As a person who often does massive resource consuming operations, the Windows10 model is such that it renders my work impossible.  I need to be able to sit, at times, for hours straight making changes to my code and testing them without interruption lest my train of thought be squished.

      For the modeler, the physicist, the meteorologist, the mathematician, and the engineer (and maybe other professionals), Windows10 is actually a threat to corporate health.

      Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
      A weatherman that can code

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      • #111656

        …the programmer…

        Seems to me that you could turn off updating while you are working, then turn it back on when you get to a good stopping point. In this way, you wouldn’t be interrupted when Microsoft calls for a new beta test, I mean, when Microsoft sends an update your way.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
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        • #111693

          That takeover by Windows to tell Windows 10 users it’s update time or else is inevitable though.¬† The professional in the science/engineering environment doesn’t usually have that kind of time to worry about such things except maybe lunch break or overnight, assuming the update can get done in that time without borking.

          Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
          A weatherman that can code

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          • #111753

            I sympathize, believe me, but Creators Update really does give you more control over updating.

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            • #111803

              It begs a great question… how many “flaws” that need to be patched (e.g. against DoublePulsar) are things that didn’t exist in the code prior to a previous update (e.g. a random August 2013 update)?

              Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
              A weatherman that can code

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      • #111661

        [sarcasm ON]What you need to keep in mind is that Microsoft’s Plans and Objectives are more important than your puny work.[sarcasm OFF]

         

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      • #111746

        As a person who often does massive resource consuming operations, the Windows10 model is such that it renders my work impossible. I need to be able to sit, at times, for hours straight making changes to my code and testing them without interruption lest my train of thought be squished.

        For the modeler, the physicist, the meteorologist, the mathematician, and the engineer (and maybe other professionals), Windows10 is actually a threat to corporate health.

        Do all these people need to use their computers for more than 18 hours every day (Active Hours) for more than 35 consecutive days (Pause Updates)?

        Update-Restart

        Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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        • #111764

          I agree with you on that – I don’t like the idea of forced cumulative updates (one of the main reasons to stay on 8.1), but the whole “my computer started installing updates 5 minutes before my presentation” paranoia is way overblown over the Internet.

          Antec P7 Silent * Corsair RM550x * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i5-11400F * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200 MHz CL16 * Sapphire Radeon 6700 10GB * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit
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        • #111802

          We can always depend on you for a good personal attack against somebody who doesn’t like Windows10.¬† But, yes, in academia, and all of meteorology, in a world where people really use their computers for hardcore, heavy tasks that would make an IT professional’s eyes bleed, computers need to be able to run for days, weeks, or months without interruption.¬† At least Creator’s Update has given some creative control, but I also can clearly see from your post (and radosuaf’s reply) that these things aren’t well-known to the world.¬† Many a Ph.D. student starts his code on Friday and comes back to see if it has finished yet on Monday.¬† Often times we start tasks not even realizing how long it’ll take because the software assures us we only need to run for a few hours… and then 2 or 3 days later…

          Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
          A weatherman that can code

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          • #111824

            We can always depend on you for a good personal attack against somebody who doesn’t like Windows10.

            Personal attack? Don’t be silly!

            I asked an entirely reasonable question to further discussion of the scenarios you raised.

            “Heavy task” users should learn how to use their OS properly.

            Plenty of information has been published about how to control when updates occur in Windows 10:

            Active hours in Windows 10

            Creators Update 1703 Pause Updates

            So your “Windows10 is actually a threat to corporate health” is blatantly false.

            Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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            • #111870

              So, in short, you’re saying we can’t do what a computer is intended to do.¬† This is the problem with Windows10 shills… they can’t understand that even being able to put off updates for 35 days doesn’t work.¬† Even if you “put it off,” come day 35 all is going up in smoke no matter where things lie at that time.

              This line of thinking you have is why most scientists either (a) give their research students Mac’s or (b) tell them to wipe out Windows and replace with Linux.¬† We need to be able to constantly use our computers at a moment’s notice because *yes* I have several times seen a professor lose his lecture the morning of class.¬† The beauty of Linux is that updates can be pushed off indefinitely and almost never require an update.¬† Plus Linux doesn’t have the multitude of background processes even if it’s a bit persnickety and will perform tasks Windows is smart enough to block.

              As scientists, we can’t be bothered with this approach.¬† We need the computer to be under our control; we can’t be under the computer’s.

              Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
              A weatherman that can code

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          • #111956

            OK, I do believe this issue is overhyped (updates and restarts) but then again I agree that the user should not think “maybe I should run WU” or “maybe I should turn off WU” or else before starting the task on his/her computer.

            Antec P7 Silent * Corsair RM550x * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i5-11400F * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200 MHz CL16 * Sapphire Radeon 6700 10GB * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit
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        • #111876

          The screenshot says it all: “We’re going to make Windows better by updating soon.”

          We’re doing it. We don’t care what you think. We don’t care if it inconveniences you. We don’t care what you want to do with your machine which you paid good money for.

          The arrogance is stunning.

          Windows 10 Home 22H2, Acer Aspire TC-1660 desktop + LibreOffice, non-techie

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          • #111987

            We don’t care if it inconveniences you.

            If they didn’t care about inconvenience, they wouldn’t provide a settings button in that notification (where you can schedule or pause for 35 days).

            Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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            • #111991

              What is the name for the style of argument where you pre-suppose basic assumptions that are really in question are legitimate and just focus on the details?

              It attempts to redirect attention, and ultimately to change what’s considered normal.

              I won’t accept it.

              Microsoft has no business reaching through the wires and forcing people to do anything. I’m not talking about what’s legal, I’m talking about what’s RIGHT.

              It wasn’t more than a handful of years ago that kind of activity was widely considered malicious. Malware was what would come into your system and force it to do things. Not the OS! Why should anyone start to consider it normal?

              Let’s keep what’s important in mind here:

              If a person came into my house and started typing on my computer to make it do something without my express approval, they would be trespassing and I might even shoot them. It wouldn’t matter if they’d called me up the day prior and told me they’d be there, and even went so far as to tell me they wouldn’t take no for an answer when they knocked at my door!

              P.S., I have scheduled jobs that run all night. There is absolutely no time when having my computer reboot spontaneously would be acceptable.

              Win81Uptime

              Up to 11 days ago I had it run 60 days before choosing to install updates, with good reason.

              I have a Win 7 system that went a full 6 months, again with good reason.

              Lastly, I have never had a malware infection nor have I ever infected others because I’m a fair bit smarter about security than anyone at Microsoft, so there is no justification in trying to force me to update.

              -Noel

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            • #112038

              What is it you’re being forced to do then, if it went two months without updates?

              You have scheduled jobs running all night every night on a test VM?

              Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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            • #112055

              No, those jobs run on systems I deem mission-critical, and thus aren’t running Windows 10.

              It’s a “what if” problem, as in:

              What if I chose to put Windows 10 on my mission-critical hardware systems?

              THEN any attempt to force my critical systems to reboot would be unwelcome indeed.

              Does that help you with your difficulty understanding what we’re talking about here?

              -Noel

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        • #111899

          @ b

          Do all these people need to use their computers for more than 18 hours every day (Active Hours) for more than 35 consecutive days (Pause Updates)?

          Some people do.

          Fyi, some computer users believe it is better for hardware longevity to leave their computers on 24/7, ie never fully shut-down unless necessary or unavoidable.

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        • #111990

          Do all these people need to use their computers for more than 18 hours every day (Active Hours) for more than 35 consecutive days (Pause Updates)?

          It is invalid to even ask that question because it presupposes that Microsoft should be in charge of when a particular system is updated, and that it’s legitimate for them to set a deadline for it being done.

          The more apt question is this: Why does Microsoft need to update my computer at all?

          MY computer. MY choices. I paid for the hardware, I pay for the internet access. I would even prefer to pay for the software so that using it is a straight up and up deal rather than it being ad-supported.

          If you can’t acknowledge the obvious conflict of interest in Microsoft forcing things on people, then I suspect you must be paid for your opinion.

          -Noel

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    • #111649

      I’m in a sixth group…

      Since microSoft won’t say exactly what data is collected and to whom data is “sold” to and furthermore don’t allow me to turn snooping 100% off, I can according to danish law not legally use Windows 10 since I store confidential data from customers…

      Thanks to Woody & The Gang ūüėÄ I’m still able to use Windows 7 legally as the new telemetry offerings from microSoft Update service has been gently refused here.

      Looking forward to how microSoft will handle the May 25 2018 EU regulatives… if microSoft comply, I _may_ actually upgrade to win10… if they do not comply 100%, I’m certainly looking forward to see how big a fine they will get this time and if they indeed can keep making business in EU…

      Have a nice weekend! ūüôā

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      • #111658

        I would be really slow to move to Windows 10 if I were you, even if it looks like Microsoft is in 100% compliance with the EU regulations. It seems like there is always some new issue with Windows 10.

        And if you do decide to move to Windows 10, be sure to get a couple of good backups of your Windows 7 install before making the move.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
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    • #111665

      This “new” method of updating is nothing else than documenting what has been happening for a while.
      The mid-cycle non-security patch for Windows 10 is the equivalent of the preview patch in the older OS starting with October 2016.
      Some people and businesses may decide to update every 2 weeks to keep their systems current and potentially have less to install once a month if the delta mechanism works as intended, but for most users/administrators, the recommended method to update is the regular monthly update.
      I see a variation in the pattern, in the sense that there are Updates (the equivalent of the Recommended Updates in Windows 7/8) and Critical Updates (the equivalent of Important non-security updates in Windows 7/8).
      Updates will be published only on WSUS and Catalog for early adopters, while Critical Updates will also be on Windows Update in addition to WSUS and Catalog as more or less mandatory due to fixing more important functionality.
      The latest KB4016240 is a Critical Update.

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      • #111705

        Excellent summary ūüôā

        but i think both Updates & Critical Updates will be deployed to Windows Update

         

        For those using Windows Update for Business, these new ‚ÄúUpdates‚ÄĚ and ‚ÄúCritical Updates‚ÄĚ will not be installed on any devices that have been configured with Windows Update for Business policies.

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    • #111668

      Woody, I read your InfoWorld post and all I can say to Microsoft is: whatever you may call it, it’s not a simplification of the update process if you need to publish time-sequence bar graphs illustrating the process.

       

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    • #111669

      This patching system reminds me of the movie ‘Tomorrow never dies’ where Elliot Carver congratulates his coder/programmer Mr Gupter for a new operating system riddled with bugs and Elliot Carver states that this will keep customers updating/ upgrading for years.

      The Technet blog post illustration ‘new non-security fixes’ looks like this in graph form: introduce, bork it then fix it the following month..a spiral of updates and tomorrow never dies for Microsoft.

      No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created IT- AE
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    • #111681

      This validates for me the impression that MS has embarked on converting Windows to WaaS without much clue as to what it entails and the consequences and the competent staff to pull it through. They keep running into problems and complications that they dk how to solve and they “solve” them ad-hoc, causing others, without an end in sight. This forces them to keep changing the rules, which only exacerbates the problems. In short, a process out of control which MS dk how to re-gain control of, at least not with the people and resources now in place, at a cost that is lower than what they expected to save/make from the conversion. They’re locked now into a process run amok. I also suspect that all those competent in and deeply knowledgeable of Windows and its history have probably gone when saw the writing on the wall, or were let go, so work is knee-jerk.

      Large corporations have the resources to waste on this ongoing nonsense, but individual users who use Windows for business don’t. It is likely that MS realized they are in a hole they can’t climb out of, so they decided to dump those customers. The GWX and forced update campaign is possibly a way to identify those that able and willing to withstand the nonsense and discard the rest–whether this was a conscious decision or not.

      Since I personally do not consider Apple or Linux options, the sub-optimal but only solution I see is to avoid Win10 like the plague, stick to Win7 with security patches and when support expires, continue to use it without patches, use frequent backups, a firewall and a good security policy and MS-blocking setup. The risk is smaller than from Win10/updates/upgrades and if anything happens, restore from backup.

      That’s what I’ve been doing for the last year and instead of dealing with the nonsense like so many do for unclear reasons, all my time was spent on my business. No probs whatsoever to date.

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    • #111713

      As a person who often does massive resource consuming operations, the Windows10 model is such that it renders my work impossible. I need to be able to sit, at times, for hours straight making changes to my code and testing them without interruption lest my train of thought be squished. For the modeler, the physicist, the meteorologist, the mathematician, and the engineer (and maybe other professionals), Windows10 is actually a threat to corporate health.

      Add to this list the historian who needs to stay immersed in the subject, and for whom the need to stop and focus on the software is a massive and unwanted time-out.

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    • #111715

      I recommend, particularly to the younger generation, the following:
      Half an operating system: The triumph and tragedy of OS/2
      https://arstechnica.com/business/2013/11/half-an-operating-system-the-triumph-and-tragedy-of-os2/

      The core point:

      “The book The Innovator‚Äôs Dilemma makes a very good case that big companies with dominant positions in legacy markets are institutionally incapable of shifting over to a new disruptive technology, even though those companies frequently invent said technologies themselves. IBM invented more computer technologies and holds more patents than any other computer company in history. Still, when push came to shove, it gave up the personal computer in favor of hanging on to the mainframe. IBM still sells mainframes today and makes good money doing so, but the company is no longer a force in personal computers.

      Today, many people have observed that Microsoft is the new dominant force in legacy computing, with legacy redefined as a personal computer running Windows. The new disruptive force is smartphones and tablets, an area in which Apple and Google have become the new dominant forces. Microsoft, to its credit, responded as quickly as it was able to meet this new disruption. The company even re-designed its legacy user interface (the Windows desktop) to be more suited to tablets.”

      I think the culprit is much more monopoly than innovation: the arrogance that is associated with the former defeats whatever there is of the latter.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #111722

      Under the hood, Win 10 is still Win 7 (new windows show the Win 7 theme first before the Win 10 theme is applied). So, beside adding HTTP 2.0 and some security stuff from EMET, it’s just lipstick on¬†a pig and more *** in the start menu.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #111727

        The problem is that Windows 7 satisfied a lot of users, was a mature and stable product and could have served as a foundation for innovated optional add-ons for those who found them valuable. Instead, their innovation adds nothing useful, bloats the OS and destroys stability. And the arrogance of monopoly caused them to bully everybody into this rather than figuring out how to induce users to it.

        Anybody who has tasted dominance for an extended period of time is addicted to it and loses the need and skill to attract customers. It’s destructive and no monopolist escapes it.

         

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        • #111786

          Agreed. Though Windows 7 couldn’t handle HiDPI (nvidia DSR) scaling all too well. Blurry fonts, context menus, etc. The only reason I moved to Windows 10 is because it handles this much better. That’s the only reason for my switch to Windows 8.1 then 10. Sad.

          As for Microsoft’s excuse why they’re holding back the update is nothing but bogus hogwash. The Creators update¬†is horrible and breaks many components, even on “high-end” machines. A¬†5960X system is far more powerful than a Microsoft Surface, and yet Creators Update breaks so many components and applications.

          Companies need to take ownership of their failures, instead of making up excuses… you’d never hear such hogwash in the 70’s from companies. The younger generation is just irresponsible… excuse after excuse after excuse, no truths.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #111825

      The vastness of hardware that runs Windows is why forced updates just never will work with Windows. Its ecosystem is just too big with so many apps, software, devices, hardware, and configurations that you cannot possible exercise all bugs from every release. But previous to Windows 10 you could at least uninstall or not accept updates. My vote is obviously this is not better than what we had previous.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #111831

        But previous to Windows 10 you could at least uninstall or not accept updates.

        You have always been able to uninstall updates on Windows 10, and now you can defer updates for a month and upgrades for a year.

        Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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        • #111856

          With a few minor exceptions (e.g., servicing stack updates), that’s exactly the case, with Creators Update.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #111859

          You have always been able to uninstall updates on Windows 10

          Out of curiosity – how does it work? Since updates are forced (let’s assume we’re on Home/Pro), when you uninstall it, it will be offered again, right? So unless MS pulls a botched update you’re basically just postponing the inevitable or you can choose not to install a certain update at all?

          Antec P7 Silent * Corsair RM550x * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i5-11400F * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200 MHz CL16 * Sapphire Radeon 6700 10GB * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit
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        • #111871

          Either way, you’re getting them because even if you uninstall an update it just gets forced on you with the next cumulative…

          Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
          A weatherman that can code

          3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #111830

      ‚ÄúHeavy task‚ÄĚ users should learn how to use their OS properly.

      You’re kidding, right? The OS is not to go into one’s way primarily. I do look into job adverts from time to time and for my position under requirements it usually states “good knowledge of MS Office”, “good knowledge of MS Excel and MS Access”, “good knowledge of SAP” or similar. It never says “good knowledge of Windows 10”. Of course, in large organisations it’s up to IT Dept. to manage updates but you would think MS produces software that does not bother professionals while they work, even if they work from home and don’t have an IT Dept. to manage their computer.

      3.1, 98, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.1 never went into my way.

      This is a typical example of MS’s ignorance – Windows 10 is not there to serve the user – it’s the user who should serve Windows (or Microsoft).

      I’ve never understood why Mac users used to say they chose MacOS because it simply works. Now I’m starting to get the picture.

      Antec P7 Silent * Corsair RM550x * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i5-11400F * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200 MHz CL16 * Sapphire Radeon 6700 10GB * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit
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      • #111834

        People can manage all kinds of crazy customizations to make Windows look and work like something from the last millennium, but a single check box to pause updates when needed is too complicated?

        Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #111839

          People can manage all kinds of crazy customizations to make Windows look and work like something from the last millennium, but a single check box to pause updates when needed is too complicated?

          I’m not one of them :). I either like the system and use it or don’t like it and don’t use it – my most sophisticated change to W8.1 look was installing Bing Desktop.

          People that tend to tinker with Windows would set metered connection, disable WU or do various kinds of things. But those who simply want to use the computer they bought are the ones that get lost and upset sometimes – and you can’t blame them if you want that piece of market.

          Antec P7 Silent * Corsair RM550x * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i5-11400F * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200 MHz CL16 * Sapphire Radeon 6700 10GB * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit
          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #111994

          People can manage all kinds of crazy customizations to make Windows look and work like something from the last millennium, but a single check box to pause updates when needed is too complicated?

          I manage both to make customizations that make Windows work BETTER and to not be daunted by the system attempting to communicate online or update/reboot against my wishes, because I can exercise control far more effective than checking a box.

          The question is, whether others who may not have the geek chops to retain control should even BEGIN to accept that Microsoft has any business trying to control what they do with their computers.

          Fighting with Microsoft over who should get control is VERY MUCH like fighting a recurring malware infection. Hard as it may seem to believe, I actually DO have better things to do.

          Microsoft, of course, feels that pulling off taking over control will benefit them greatly in the long run, at the expense of users.

          -Noel

          7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #111843

        I’ve never understood why Mac users used to say they chose MacOS because it simply works. Now I’m starting to get the picture.

        Do Macs get used for tasks which take a week to run? (I have no idea. It just seems unlikely.)

        But even on a Mac, automatic updates require some thought and a check box or two:

        How to Disable Automatic Updates in OS X El Capitan

        Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.2361 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #111860

          Do Macs get used for tasks which take a week to run? (I have no idea. It just seems unlikely.)

          No idea as well. I’d still prefer W10 (or Linux) over Mac OS, so I never got really interested. There’s no cure for that :).

          Antec P7 Silent * Corsair RM550x * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i5-11400F * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3200 MHz CL16 * Sapphire Radeon 6700 10GB * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit
          2 users thanked author for this post.
          fp
        • #111872

          Sometimes, yes a process takes many days.  Plus many things scientists do involve a process of (1) run model for hours, (2) tweak, (3) repeat until fixed.

          We call this getting a Ph.D. thesis, and it takes students months to get through these phases oftentimes.

          Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
          A weatherman that can code

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #111838

      Windows 10 issues that were anticipated before release and, the cumulative experience with the OS to date, illustrates a truism through the ages. A strategy, the ultimate success of which, requires a level of expertise and execution capability¬†that you do not currently possess is not a good or viable strategy. MS has walked into this¬†mess with both feet and I suspect that there are many internal¬†Powerpoint¬†presentations at MS showing W10 as a great strategic direction. The panic will set in when Wall Street analysts get tired of looking at MS as a¬†relatively cheap growth story because of Azure. Many of these analysts have their head in the “Cloud” even though many of them would be hard pressed to explain what¬†really comprises the cloud. Over the last five years MS¬†revenue growth has virtually flat lined. I suppose that may have something to do with the frenetic effort to force¬†feed¬†computing activity into cloud servers whether the particular need is there or not.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #111873

      But, yes, in academia, and all of meteorology, in a world where people really use their computers for hardcore, heavy tasks that would make an IT professional’s eyes bleed, computers need to be able to run for days, weeks, or months without interruption.

      You are supposed to use server OS for that purpose. Client machines may have server kernel, but is not optimised for server like activities and the server features are cut down to something like max 10 connections at any one time.
      For now at least, Windows Server 2016 is LTSB, although without tuning it gets the same monthly or bi-weekly forced automatic updates like the client OS.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #111921

        I wouldn’t say that. I worked with research and the scenario was more one of a workstation. You can do operational research, simulations, optimization work on a powerful workstation. Guess what our Ph.D.s were running back in the old days of early 2000 for that? Linux on a workstation for days. Look up scientific articles in Operational Research from the 90s, they even mention which machine they worked on maybe so people can have an idea and compare performance (yes, a bit of a silly idea, especially considering the variety of machines that were presented, some of which Unix workstations on different architecture).

        I never saw any of them run on a server, although it could be fine doing so, but the powerful workstation for each researcher was fine to do their work.

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      • #111996

        You are supposed to use server OS for that purpose.

        I don’t agree.

        Think “workstation”. A station where work gets done.

        Windows has been capable of running virtually forever for a long time. My own systems run for as long as it takes, doing all the work I need, until I become convinced I need updates and have reached a convenient time for temporarily destabilizing my working environment.

        Microsoft is clearly turning away from powering this kind of serious general purpose computing. There is no magic that makes the Enterprise version suddenly serious and worthy. If anything, that Microsoft has laid off its professional testing organization means just the opposite. Just yesterday I had my Win 10 Creator’s system have a File Explorer window go completely blank on a network drive that took a moment to spin up, without recovering. Not long ago there was a serious permissions issue with network shares that Win 10 Anniversary had gotten wrong, and which took months for Microsoft to fix.

        Boring business computing things like networking just don’t get tested by the millions of home user beta testers. Yet they are implicitly relied upon by business users running client operating system versions.

        -Noel

        6 users thanked author for this post.
        • #111999

          Think ‚Äúworkstation‚ÄĚ. A station where work gets done.” – Steve Jobs remarked once he thought computers should be like an appliance or car. They may take some maintenance but normally the maintenance issues are not so critical that they have be dealt with ASAP. Routine updates to the OS fall into a category of the should be done in reasonable time not ASAP. MS seems to think routine updates and added ‘features’ are mission critical that they must interrupt the work the user is doing.

          Also, remember MS can not maintain file compatibility with Word documents between different versions of Word. I just got a new laptop at work (W7 replacing W7) and now found that the updated Word does not correctly render a Word document (docx format). To get a correct rendering I have use the old doc format.

          Edited to remove HTML

          3 users thanked author for this post.
          • #112021

            Exactly. An OS is a facilitator of applications, not the applications themselves. Once you reach an effective and stable OS, if you want to make money off useful apps, develop them ON TOP of the OS and sell them. But if you’re an OS monopolist the temptation to exploit your dominant position and impose them as part of the OS is too high. Thing is, there are lots of free options out there and unless your options are significantly better/more useful, you can’t sell them and at that point you either try to “progress” the OS, destabilizing it for no good value, or extend it by including the apps in and impose it.

            That’s usually the end of the line, to the detriment of both the vendor and its users. Self-destruction.

            3 users thanked author for this post.
            • #112032

              @ anonymous#112021

              Yes, agree. One of the reasons why the Win 10 Pro CU/Version 1703 64bit ISO file is a huge size of about 4GB while the Linux Mint 18.1 Cinnamon 64bit ISO is only 1.6GB.

              And Win 10 users are required by M$ to upgrade nearly every 6 months, either through a risky in-place upgrade(even with UUP, it’s a download of about 3GB) or a clean install(= a download of about 4GB).

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #112059

              The Linux Mint download will install a fully functioning system including an office suite, video player, browser, and several other programs to make a useful system out of the box. Windows 10 does not do that. Which raises the question, why the bloat?

              4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #112027

      And to think that people believed MS when they claimed that all this is to SIMPLIFY windows and make user configurations MORE HOMOGENOUS. There’s no end to gullibility, which is why so easy for vendors to behave irresponsibly.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #112079

      “The new disruptive force is smartphones and tablets, an area in which Apple and Google have become the new dominant forces. Microsoft, to its credit, responded as quickly as it was able to meet this new disruption. The company even re-designed its legacy user interface (the Windows desktop) to be more suited to tablets.”

      Yeah, right. MS messed up the desktop UI only to meet the disruption this way:

      Windows Phone is dead. Now what?
      https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1287164-windows-phone-is-dead-now-what/

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #112093

        @ fp

        Now what?

        Imagine an Android-like OS that will be able to do everything that Win 10 can, ie able to fully replace Win 10 and MS Office in the corporate and consumer world.
        . . Google’s coming Fuchsia OS may be it, hopefully and soon.

        If not, the 2020/2023 END-OF-LIFE for Win 7/8.1 will become like the Dark Ages of medieval times when tyranny by the powerful ruled.

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