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  • The Chrome vs Edgemium (Chredge?) wars heat up

    Home Forums AskWoody blog The Chrome vs Edgemium (Chredge?) wars heat up

    This topic contains 24 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  Lugh 4 months, 3 weeks ago.

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    • #580581 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      With Edge now absorbing the Chromium rendering engine*, I expect all of the Windows-centric bloggers to start explaining, in excruciating detail, why
      [See the full post at: The Chrome vs Edgemium (Chredge?) wars heat up]

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #581037 Reply

      abbodi86
      AskWoody_MVP

      Opera 12.18 (Presto) still has features that no other browser managed to replicate

      • #585581 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody_MVP

        Maybe not out of the box, but was there anything it could do that pre-Quantum Firefox couldn’t do with extensions?  I had heard good things about Opera during the browser wars days, but Mozilla/Firefox always did what I needed, so I was never compelled to try anything else.  I certainly would have tried Opera back then if Firefox had not worked for me… as long as it was not IE, it was a candidate.

        When Opera changed hands, the new management seems to have decided to pursue the segment of the customer base that is apparently stamping their feet and demanding less uniqueness and fewer features.  Mozilla has joined them.

        Firefox, in its out-of-the-box form, was always inadequate to me, but I never thought of the unextended product as being a finished product in and of itself.  The idea of pushing popular but not universally desired features into extensions, in a kind of modular setup where everyone could have just the Firefox they wanted without the bulk of built-ins they would never use, was so intrinsic to what Firefox was about that I always saw extensions as being just like features in the menu that were turned off by default, but that were immediately available if the user wanted them to be.  It was inadequate out of the box, but only in the fashion that a foundation for a house is inadequate as a place to live.

        Firefox was borne of complaints that Mozilla Suite had grown too large and was suffering from featureitis.  The browser that started as Phoenix t was a product of merciless removal of a lot of popular features, but they never stopped.  To my way of thinking, they long ago reached the point where it was time to stop cutting, but they kept on lopping off one after another feature that their dwindling user base wanted to keep.  They’ve been cutting well beyond what I would consider the minimum basic feature set for years, but as long as I could fix it, I was happy.

        And then, of course, Mozilla cut the feature that made the increasingly feature-sparse Firefox viable despite their best efforts.  With only the basic addons that Chrome can use, it’s no longer possible to fix what I don’t like about Firefox.  Fortunately, there are still Waterfox and Pale Moon, but it’s a bad state of affairs when the only browsers that I consider decent are niche products that are developed by only one person each.  The computing landscape is littered with the remains of various projects like that, abandoned once the developer burned out or lost interest.  The long-term stability of such projects is worrisome.  It’s hard to imagine that decent examples of an entire category of program for my platform (desktop PC) could so easily cease to exist, but that’s the situation.

        As an aside, I also found that there were no decent browsers in Android when I used that platform, which was a few years ago.  The closest one was the last release of Opera still based on Presto… it had all the things I wanted and a good UI, but it constantly got stuck with pages only partly loaded, and it wasn’t going to get any better as the Presto code base got older and older.

        I’m obviously not a typical user when it comes to what I want from a browser.  If people like me were typical, what I want in a browser would not be so hard to find.  It wasn’t always so, and it wasn’t me who changed.  It’s the recent infatuation with minimalism that has been the issue.

        With browsers being the one thing that nearly every user of any computing device wants to use, you’d think there’d be as much variation in browsers as there is in browser users, but all of the non-Chrome developers seem to think that a Davidian frontal assault on the Google goliath is the way to go, aiming directly for the very users whose idea of an ideal browser reads like a list of design parameters of Chrome rather than trying to serve a slice of the population that is not content with Chrome.

        Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.5).

        7 users thanked author for this post.
        • #593710 Reply

          Elly
          AskWoody MVP

          You have a good explanation as to why I enjoy using Pale Moon so much… something I didn’t have the background to  be able to verbalize.

          From what I can see, chrome, etc, have improved data collection, rather than the features most people wanted, which was to make more difficult to block or eliminate the same.

           

          Win 7 Home, 64 bit, Group B

    • #582237 Reply

      anonymous

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but is Edge just going to be a reskin of Chrome? Sort of like Opera.

    • #583066 Reply

      pHROZEN gHOST
      AskWoody Lounger

      Let’s see where Edgium stands after its first major update.

      Byte me!

    • #587100 Reply

      Bluetrix
      AskWoody MVP

      In my experience, people just don’t want Microsoft products unless they have to use them.

      I agree. If I had to use an Epipen every time I ate a nut, the probability is high nuts would disappear from my diet.

      As @ascaris alluded to, if a menu were replaced with a smorgasbord we could pick and choose from that worked on (a) foundation, the masses would be happier and not on an endless safari.

      If Windows in it’s lack of infinite wisdom decides to hard bake this mengele approach to solving the sorry excuse for a browser they now offer … eh, they gonna do what they wanna do. I just won’t use it, Epipen handy or not.

      Windows10 Home 1809 | Mint19 on VM

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #588791 Reply

      Alex5723
      AskWoody Plus

      Opera 12.18 (Presto) still has features that no other browser managed to replicate

      Agreed, like sending data to China.

      • #589971 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody_MVP

        The older Presto version was what was developed before Opera was bought by the Chinese.  If there’s any data slurp of which to speak, it would be in the Chromium-based version.

        Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.5).

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #590714 Reply

      AlexEiffel
      AskWoody_MVP

      Woody,

      I don’t share your enthusiasm about this browser war.

      If Chromium is about the only game in town, then we will see more websites not supporting Firefox because there will be even less incentives to think about cross-browser compatibility.

      I already receive the “Use Chrome” given as a solution on some websites we have to use for business. Each time, I’m thinking, really ? We didn’t learn anything from IE and its proprietary things + the incompatibilities between each versions, we already forgot that we should maybe follow web standards and ensure compatibility with everything that supports them?

      After an initial positive reaction to the creation of Edge, once I realized that it was going to be a product of monetization and not the spartian fast, lean, secure browser I thought it could be, I stopped having any interest in it. Now that it will use the chromium engine, it will just mean less software biodiversity for accessing the web, although Edge never reached that state where it had to be considered a serious player.

      Right now, I just want Firefox to survive. Unlike Ascaris, basic Firefox suits me very well. Yes, extensions can be great, but what is most important to me, is a browser that is as lean and safe as possible out of the box, that doesn’t suffer from featuritis and that makes everything it can to protect my privacy while silently just working right in the background. Firefox isn’t perfect, but it seems better than the two big alternatives, to me.

      6 users thanked author for this post.
      • #626136 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody_MVP

        I too hope for the survival of Firefox.  While I do think that Mozilla has lost the plot in their design decisions, I still greatly prefer them to Google or Microsoft in a general sense, and Firefox (even in its current form which I don’t much care for) is still considerably better than Chrome or the old version of Edge, IMO.  For how much longer is anyone’s guess… they keep lopping off features (that can no longer be added back with extensions) with every new version, and there may come a time that it’s not any better as a product, and the only reason to use Firefox proper would be to distance onself from Google, which has already proven to not work as a browser marketing strategy.

        My preferred browser, Waterfox, would not exist without Firefox.  Developing a browser is too much for any one person to do, and while it is possible for a one-man operation to take the patches Mozilla writes and backport them to Waterfox, it’s way too much for one person to maintain the whole of Firefox at the same time.  The same’s true of Pale Moon.

        If Firefox ceases to be, so will its derivatives.  How long can Mozilla hold on with usage numbers that continue to dwindle?  Linux itself manages to thrive with much less market share on the desktop than Firefox currently has in browsers, but Linux has a lot of corporate backing, as it’s a big player everywhere other than the desktop.  While I’m very confident about the future of Linux, I do worry for the future of Mozilla and Firefox… I don’t criticize them out of malice or a wish to see them fail.  I do it out of concern for their future, and for my own future of browsing by extension.  They’ve been continuously stripping Firefox of features that distinguish it from Chrome for years (which was annoying but tolerable until they took away the ability to add those things back with extensions), and their market share has been in freefall that whole time.  Yet they keep at it, trying to develop for those Chrome (or other Chromium-based browser) users who consider the minimalist UI and feature set of Chrome to be ideal, without ever stopping to think that those are the people most satisfied with Chrome and least likely to switch.  I only hope that enough of us yelling at them will at some point be loud enough to wake them up, before it’s too late.

         

        Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.5).

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #594324 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      In my experience, people just don’t want Microsoft products unless they have to use them.

      Billions using Office or Skype might disagree.

      Knuckle dragger Cannon fodder Chump Daft glutton Idiot Crazy/Ignorant Toxic drinker Blockhead Unwashed mass Seeker/Sucker "Ancient/Obsolete" (Group ASAP) Win10 v.1903

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #595283 Reply

        Bluetrix
        AskWoody MVP

        In my experience, people just don’t want Microsoft products unless they have to use them.

        Billions using Office or Skype might disagree.

        If those billions have to use them, the issue is moot.
        Good point anyway.

        Windows10 Home 1809 | Mint19 on VM

      • #600896 Reply

        Cesar
        AskWoody Lounger

        woody wrote: In my experience, people just don’t want Microsoft products unless they have to use them.

        Billions using Office or Skype might disagree.

        Are there still ‘billions’ using Skype after the forced Skype 8 up(down?)grade?

        César

        • #602595 Reply

          ch100
          AskWoody_MVP

          It is a reference to Skype as part of Office (previously known as Lync) and not to the home product Skype.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #623710 Reply

          b
          AskWoody Plus

          Are there still ‘billions’ using Skype after the forced Skype 8 up(down?)grade?

          No, just a few hundred millions of monthly active users.

          But the billions included all those who choose to use Office (purchased, subscribed or free).

          And I forgot the 64 million monthly active users of Xbox.

          And the many millions of Surface devices carefully selected by discerning consumers.

          I think it’s beyond weird that Woody would say, “people just don’t want Microsoft products”.

          Doesn’t this site exist because of their popularity?

          Knuckle dragger Cannon fodder Chump Daft glutton Idiot Crazy/Ignorant Toxic drinker Blockhead Unwashed mass Seeker/Sucker "Ancient/Obsolete" (Group ASAP) Win10 v.1903

          2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #594762 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Plus

      I find it odd that Edge has been developed so it can be used with Windows 7. Maybe MS is providing Win 7 holdouts something they’ll still support after Windows 7 is no longer so?

      In any case, many people, myself included, are no longer using IE11 and is no longer my default browser. And I will continue to use other browsers — other than Edge — for as long as their developers continue to support versions that can run on Windows 7.

      I do still patch IE11, though, and will continue to do it for as long as possible, because it shares elements with, and is also used by other applications, some integral to the OS, even if I no longer use it as a browser.

      Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W + Mac&Lx

    • #595794 Reply

      anonymous

      I can only guess Microsoft Edge was trying to recreate Chrome/Chromium like browser and failed(?) so they decided to heavily modify Chromium to gain a wider built in audience. It’s too bad Edge did work well enough.

      • #609444 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody_MVP

        It actually makes a great deal of sense for Microsoft to use the Chromium engine.  There are a lot of reasons Microsoft would want their own browser in 2019: The ability to use the UWP UI and packaging for the Windows 10 version, the ease with which it could integrate with MS cloud services, and the ability to send telemetry to Microsoft.

        Not to mention, of course, that people expect an OS to come with a browser.

        None of these things requires that the back-end be developed and maintained by Microsoft.  It’s not like it was in 1998 or 2000, when IE was deliberately noncompliant with W3C standards and instead pushed its own proprietary extensions.  Those things required MS to have its own back-end, since that’s where the rendering of the pages takes place.

        Now, MS isn’t playing that game anymore.  MS is not trying to push their own proprietary standards with Edge.  From what I gathered, the pre-Chromium Edge was meant to be standards complaint, which is something that Mozilla, MS, and Google all agree on (finally).  The things MS wants to do with Edge now are all in the front-end.

        It’s the back-end work in a browser that is truly the difficult part.  By making their own closed-source rendering engine that ostensibly aims to render pages the same as Chromium, they’re reinventing the wheel at considerable expense, but with no benefit to the company.  Chromium is there for the taking, and it’s already being maintained on someone else’s dime whether or not MS chooses to use it.  MS can have the browser they want with all of the features they want, and they can offload the majority of the development costs to Google!  If you’re Microsoft, what’s not to like about that?

        It’s not the best for the computing industry as a whole to reduce competition, of course, and a Chromium monoculture would not be a good thing across the web for a number of reasons.  Still, from Microsoft’s perspective, it’s all gain with no downside to switch to Chrome, other than the possible embarrassment for the company that once dominated with IE to be out of the web rendering engine business

        Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.5).

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #636270 Reply

          anonymous

          I wondered why no site complained about an older version of Edge and just no found out it was already pretending to be Google Chrome version 51.

    • #624060 Reply

      John
      AskWoody Lounger

      I think Microsoft realized that spending a lot developing a in house browser wasn’t paying off and their other products didn’t require it and obviously many Microsoft users didn’t care for it anyway. Edge chromium makes sense from a cost standpoint, it offers Windows users a good stable browser that is web standards compliant and it will probably move the web towards a one set of web standards or sorts. When Firefox did the Quantum browser that was supposed to improve Firefox in leaps and bounds. It remineded me that it was a lot like Microsoft doing the same with Edge and the Trident engine. Clean out all the legacy junk and make it compliant. Neither Mozilla or Microsoft succeeded with this and both engines appear to be headed for the heep.

    • #926335 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Plus

      I think Edgemium’s greatest foe is its pedigree. In my experience, people just don’t want Microsoft products unless they have to use them.

      Chromium Edge preview surprisingly popular
      But the main thing that makes Microsoft Edge so popular isn’t necessarily related to the browser, but to the company that makes it.

      Why So Many Users Already Replace Google Chrome with the New Microsoft Edge

      Knuckle dragger Cannon fodder Chump Daft glutton Idiot Crazy/Ignorant Toxic drinker Blockhead Unwashed mass Seeker/Sucker "Ancient/Obsolete" (Group ASAP) Win10 v.1903

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #949419 Reply

      Lugh
      AskWoody_MVP

      I think it’s beyond weird that Woody would say, “people just don’t want Microsoft products”.

      You omitted an important part of what Woody said, ie the prefix to the quote above “In my experience,…”.

      Clearly, Woody needs to leave the millions compound and get out more among the billions 😉

      Lugh.
      ~
      Alienware Aurora R6; Win10 Home x64 1803; Office 365 x32
      i7-7700; GeForce GTX 1060; 16GB DDR4 2400; 1TB SSD, 256GB SSD, 4TB HD

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