• The highest customer satisfaction in the history of Windows

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    #338839

    I’m just going to drop this here, gently, and tip-toe away without comment. https://twitter.com/yusuf_i_mehdi/status/1103701863239606273
    [See the full post at: The highest customer satisfaction in the history of Windows]

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    • #338840

      is it true that customers Helped to achieve 800 million? But people all over the World don’t have an option to choose, people are forced to use Windows 10 on all gadgets!

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      • #338845

        Indeed, coercion does not equate to satisfaction

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      • #338869

        is it true that customers Helped to achieve 800 million? But people all over the World don’t have an option to choose, people are forced to use Windows 10 on all gadgets!

        Granted Microsoft did some underhanded stuff to get people on Windows 10 initially. At a defined time prior Windows versions are no longer available for new machines. At this point in time there is no difference between being “forced” to get Windows 10 than there was in being “forced” to get Windows 7, Windows Vista, or Windows 8/8.1.

        --Joe

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        • #338941

          It still does not equate to “satisfaction”.

          3 users thanked author for this post.
          • #338982

            Nor does the complaining in support forums equate with a general level of dis-satisfaction. Virtually all you see in support forums are problems. The number of individuals pales in comparison to the general population. Since there is not a huge outcry in the general population I would think the level of satisfaction is at least OK.

            --Joe

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            • #339035

              The general population doesn’t know/use Microsoft’s support forums and those that do don’t use it anymore after the response they get, like : Boot into safe mode..(what is safe mode ?), edit the registry..(what is registry?), download ISO and re-install Windows (what is ISO ?)…

              Microsoft causes $Trillion in damages with every Patch Tuesday to users with faulty updates, data lose, crashed PCs, time lose….

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            • #339861

              Microsoft has been allowed to become a De Facto Unregulated Public Utility with its OS market domination on PCs/Laptops and the end users are suffering because of that. Microsoft needs to be providing a stable OS platform and not some Integrated Cloud Subscription Services Platform via the Independent Third Party PC/Laptop OEM market. If Microsoft wants to do that with its Own Branded PC/Laptop products then that’s no different than Apple and that’s just fine. But for the entire Third Party Independent OEM PC/Laptop Market where folks purchase their PC/laptops from those Independent OEMs then they should not be forced into Microsoft’s Closed Ecosystem.

              Microsoft needs to be forced to provide to the Third Party OEM PC/laptop market with an OS version without any Microsoft forced services integration so folks can have some opportunity of using Third Party OEM PCs/Laptops that are not tied in to any Closed OS ecosystem and services business models.

              Apple pretty much has this only on Apple’s Branded PCs/Laptops, and table/phone hardware that’s sold directly made under Apple’s name. Microsoft has  mostly the entire Independent Third Party OEM PC/Laptop market under its influnce via its Windows 1o land grab. And most folks are not wanting anything to do with Microsoft’s Closed Services business model that Windows 10 defines, Apple’s either.

              Folks who purchase their Third Party OEM made PC/Laptops are mostly looking for a functioning OS that works with that OEM’s hardware and are not wanting to be forced into an Apple like Closed ecosystem on their PC/Laptops. They choose the Third Party PC/Laptop OEMs for a reason instead of going with Apple’s walled garden approach, and how Microsoft thinks that people will go willingly into any Closed Ecosystem Servces Model that’s more similar to the cable company’s business model in just beyond reason.

              Now folks after 2020 are going to have less and less of any options with their Third Party OEM PC/Laptop purchases and great difficulty getting any devices outside on anyones closed walled gardens that will be becoming even more restrictive than the current Cable Providor based ecosystems. Folks began cutting thier Cable TV for a reason! And the closer it gets to Jan 2020 I’d expect that Microsoft will double down on this sort of propaganda.

               

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            • #339883

              Microsoft has been allowed to become a De Facto Unregulated Public Utility with its OS market domination on PCs/Laptops and the end users are suffering because of that.

              Well said. What I find additionally troubling about this is the number of cool-aid drinkers who defend and enable MS’s behavior. Some of the posts defending MS sound like dialog from mind-numbed characters in “Invasion of the Body Snatchers.”

              GaryK

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            • #339046

              Since there is not a huge outcry in the general population I would think the level of satisfaction is at least OK.

              In my group of family and friends, W10 updates caused every single computer (except one) enough problems that they went back to their previous operating systems. The updating caused enough problems that if they didn’t need have help, they would have needed to buy new computers. Of approximately 3 dozen computers, only one is still on W10, and that one is used for gaming, exclusively, and was on more powerful and newer hardware. Borking perfectly good computer hardware, that works well on previous operating systems or Linux, is not indicative of customer satisfaction… and counting those that were forced to move to W10 because no other options were readily available when they went to buy replacements for their borked machines, is also not indicative of customer satisfaction.

              Non-techy Win 10 Pro and Linux Mint experimenter

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            • #339077

              Sorry Joe but that’s a non sequitur. If I force user to use what for some (we don’t know the numbers either way) appears as an often broken O/S with poorly implemented updates, that just implies people “put up” with it, that is not satisfaction.

              Regardless of forums for or against Win10, it is disingenuous to imply users are satisfied (or not satisfied to be fair) when the users are forced to use the O/S. You cannot make a valid judgment on those grounds, as for many they see no alternative, and there are no independent metrics to truly indicate whether users are really satisfied or not

              For the record I mainly use Linux (and dual boot Win7 if I need it for the odd game) so I’m not arguing one way or the other about Win10 itself, but marketing hype based on a false assumption.

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            • #339089

              Virtually all you see in support forums are problems.

              Aren’t SUPPORT forums set-up for that purpose?
              If not, what would you suggest that support forums be in that case?

              Win8.1/R2 Hybrid lives on...
            • #339414

              Yes, that is certainly the one of the purposes of support forums. My point is that those of us who spend a lot of time in support forums can lose perspective of how good or bad a product is. A first time or infrequent user can also be influenced negatively by what they see. With a product like Windows that has such a large distribution over a huge variety of hardware and software you must be careful about general conclusions based on such limited observations.

              --Joe

            • #339240

              I despise your logic because I’m resigned to agree. Microsoft did so many things I liked for so long that I’m emotionally ill equipped to deal with their recent behavior. Drats.

               

        • #338943

          Agreed on the underhanded tactics by Microsoft.

          MS has been more aggressive in herding customers into Windows 10 than any previous version of Windows. Recall, for example, that computers with newer CPUs are prevented from receiving updates to Windows 7 and 8.1.

          This “our way or the highway” attitude is new to Microsoft. Without a doubt, they would have loved for people to buy Vista and Windows 8 in the quantities that XP and 7 enjoyed, but ultimately they acceded to customer preferences, extending support for XP by years and introducing 8.1 to address some of the concerns over 8.

          Not so with Windows 10. To provide one example, for a long time the return of Aero Glass transparency was one of the top requests by Windows users in the Insider Feedback forum and on UserVoice. But not only have they not brought back Aero Glass, they even shut down the Microsoft UserVoice forum:

          MS-UserVoice
          So, no, people were not driven into Vista or 8 the way they are being driven into 10.

          Even with MS’s underhanded and aggressive tactics, though, they failed to meet their announced goal of 1 billion users by 2017/2018, which suggests a significant amount of customer resistance to Windows 10. And still they forge ahead.

           

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        • #338952

          At this point in time there is no difference between being “forced” to get Windows 10 than there was in being “forced” to get Windows 7, Windows Vista, or Windows 8/8.1.

          If people install 8.1 on, say, a Coffee Lake system, will not one of the updates (which are ostensibly provided to protect from malware) intentionally and permanently break the update system, deliberately leaving the person’s PC vulnerable to every other security threat that comes along from that point forward?  Something that masquerades as or rides along with something the person wants (security updates) but delivers a malicious payload they do not want (breaking all future security updates) is the definition of a Trojan horse.  Whatever you call it, it cannot be denied that Microsoft has delivered this one to millions.  They’ll cheerfully deliver it to you right now, today, as part of their ongoing effort to force everyone onto the Windows 10 pain train.

          The idea that “forcing” people to use 10 is like it was with 7 or 8.1 would only be accurate if MS had not used their power to make sure OEMs like Intel never release any Windows drivers for versions other than 10, so that even if they use third-party hacks to circumvent the MS update-breaking “security update,” they still may not be able to get everything on their PC working (such as drivers for the i2c bus, needed to make some touchpads work) with older versions of Windows.

          MS never did that with previous versions of Windows.  If an OEM wanted to release Windows XP drivers for any piece of hardware for the newest CPU even now, years after XP’s extended support ran out, there’d be nothing stopping them.  The same goes for Vista.

          Windows 8.1 still has four years or so of security support left, but lots of people, having observed Microsoft’s behavior for the last 3+ years, quite reasonably doubt that it will actually be usable for that time.  It’s not usable right off the bat on either of the two newer laptops I’ve tried it on because of Microsoft’s deliberate actions to make sure new drivers for 7 or 8.1 simply do not exist, as I’ve mentioned above (I returned one such laptop to the store because of that, in part, as it was not fit for purpose, back when I considered compatibility with Windows to be a must-have).

          Even on older architectures that MS graciously allows to run pre-10 Windows, they have demonstrated their willingness to provide security-only updates that introduce new non-security bugs that are not fixed with future security-only updates.  So far, they’ve still pushed the fixes out in the rollups.  They could, at any time, elect to stop providing fixes for these regressions at all, since they’re only obligated to provide security fixes, and given how unethically they’ve behaved from Nadella’s ascension forward, I don’t think for a moment that they wouldn’t do this.  There’s nothing I’d think is too unethical or cynical or anti-customer for MS to countenance at this point.

          That’s nothing like how it was with Windows 7 or 8.1.

          Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon
          XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, KDE Neon
          Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, KDE Neon (and Win 11)

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          • #338974

            Microsoft sets dates after which a version of Windows can’t be preloaded on an OEM system. After that date it makes no sense for an OEM to continue releasing new versions of drivers for that OS. They may choose to produce bug fixes for some period. Sure, they could produce new drivers but why would they? They are like everyone else and want to look forward not backward.

            Microsoft has said that they will not support certain chipsets and CPUs in Win10 after a certain version but they do not force the OEM to stop producing drivers for older OSes. It just does not make economic sense for the OEMs.

            Microsoft feels the same way. They do not want to spend the engineering time & money developing drivers and firmware for older OSes to work on newer hardware. You and I may not like it but once again they want to expend resources looking forward not backward.

            --Joe

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            • #339041

              You and I may not like it but once again they want to expend resources looking forward not backward.

              Which is the complete opposite of customer satisfaction…

              Non-techy Win 10 Pro and Linux Mint experimenter

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            • #339157

              Not necessarily. Microsoft expends time and money supporting products for defined lifetimes. If they did not care about satisfaction they would not produce patches for the general public.

              --Joe

            • #339160

              Wouldn’t producing patches for the general public have to do more with security for the general public (including Einterprise/Education) than satisfaction for the general public?

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            • #339126

              Microsoft sets dates after which a version of Windows can’t be preloaded on an OEM system. After that date it makes no sense for an OEM to continue releasing new versions of drivers for that OS.

              Sure it does.  The OEMs are only interested in selling hardware, and the more OSes that are compatible with that hardware, the more hardware they are likely to sell– particularly when the older OS is more popular than the new one by a significant factor, as was Windows 7 until quite recently.  Even if OEM sales of hardware as assembled by the major PC makers was all that mattered, the OEMs are still aware that people will avoid upgrading if it would mean they’re going to be locked into an OS that they don’t want.  If new, desirable versions of Windows drive hardware sales, as it has long been accepted, then it must also be true that new, undesirable versions of Windows slow hardware sales.

              Sure, they could produce new drivers but why would they? They are like everyone else and want to look forward not backward.

              They want to make money, and if the money is in the hands of people who don’t like 10, it doesn’t mean they don’t want it.  I’ve bought a lot of hardware in the decades I’ve been using Windows, and I’ve often put older OSes on newer hardware, if that was what was desired.  There was never any broad difficulty installing XP on Vista systems… no lack of XP drivers, no prohibition of future updates, nothing of the sort.

              Microsoft has said that they will not support certain chipsets and CPUs in Win10 after a certain version

              When Microsoft said they will not support newer architectures on older Windows versions, that’s not really what they meant.  To not “support” something means that if people choose to do it, they’re not going to get any tech support from Microsoft.  They’re on their own, in other words.  My ISP may not support people using a mail client other than Outlook, but no one is prohibited from using Thunderbird or The Bat! or whatever other ones people use these days.  They’re unsupported, not prohibited.

              What MS actually did is to write a program to detect newer CPU architectures, install it on people’s PCs, and to deny certain CPU and OS combinations all future updates, using the threat of vulnerability to malware to try to coerce a certain Microsoft-benefiting behavior from people who clearly do not want to use 10, but are still Microsoft customers.  That’s not “unsupported.”  That’s “prohibited.”

              but they do not force the OEM to stop producing drivers for older OSes. It just does not make economic sense for the OEMs.

              The way that Microsoft triumphantly stated both AMD and Intel had agreed not to provide drivers for newer architectures on pre-10, speaking on behalf of hardware manufacturers who have no interest in promoting 10, suggests otherwise.  AMD turned around and did release Windows 7 drivers for Ryzen despite Microsoft’s statement that they wouldn’t, but Intel has been much more compliant… or complicit.

              I don’t know what MS said or did to bring about this course of events, but I smell a rat.  Hardware OEMs have an interest in selling hardware, and if more than half of the people using Windows are using Windows 7, it would be rather foolish to write those people off and only release drivers for Windows 10.

              Even if this phenomenon is purely the decision of the individual OEMs, Microsoft’s efforts to prevent installations of older Windows on newer CPUs certainly would have been a major factor in convincing those OEMs that there would not be a market for 8.1 or 7 drivers for new hardware.

              Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon
              XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, KDE Neon
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        • #339104

          Microsoft and many other companies have always crafted their End-User License Agreement to be a shield to protect themselves. Reading the Microsoft EULA one can see there are now the included sections used to justify and excuse themselves of bad behavior. (It is logical to conclude Microsoft is not alone in such a practice.)

          Were you not mad during first instantiated forced upgrade cycle, do you not see how it continues and Microsoft are continually proud of their scheme?

    • #338865

      The “800 million” devices on Windows 10… does that count Windows 10 Phones? A smartphone is a device… As for Mehdi’s claim of “the highest customer satisfaction in the history of Windows”, that’s not much. Except for Microsofties & people bought & paid for by M$, my experience is that Windows customers aren’t satisfied much… especially those on Windows 10. Why else would they buy Woody’s books & be on this website?!

      Bought a refurbished Windows 10 64-bit, currently updated to 22H2. Have broke the AC adapter cord going to the 8.1 machine, but before that, coaxed it into charging. Need to buy new adapter if wish to continue using it.
      Wild Bill Rides Again...

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      • #338879

        If most of your experience is in support forums you’ll get the wrong impression about most people’s satisfaction with Windows 10. Support forums do not get people who routinely extoll the virtues of any OS. You get people who are asking for help to solve problems. This can heavily skew the outlook about the goodness or badness of an OS, a program, or a particular release.

        There are many who approach a forum to learn, solve a usability issue, figure how-to do a task, or get hardware or software advice among other things rather than only trying to solve some bug or rant about Microsoft.

        --Joe

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    • #338868

      In my opinion the vast majority of windows 10 consumer users never have any problems. I upgraded to windows 10 almost the day it came out and other than the 1809 debacle i have never had any problems with ether the cumulative updates or the feature updates.

      I have been a windows secreat reader since almost the beginning and have the utmost respect for Woody and Susan and all the other contribitures. In fact i have learned more about computers from WS than than any other sources.

      I have only been reading Ask Woody for a few months but it really concerns me the constant bashing of Windows 10 on this site and what all the people who are coming over from the WS forums will think about the constant negativity.

      Please this is my opinion only and its not my intention to start a war. i want to see any problems with updates no matter how trivial just in case it affects me.

      There i feel better now.

      Thanks to all the people who helping to transition WS to this site i cant imagine what you are going thru.

       

      Barry
      Windows 11 v23H2

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      • #338884

        Woody has made a living in explaining Microsoft products and attempting to hold Microsoft’s collective feet to the fire concerning software quality. IMO, this site has evolved from his efforts to have a larger percentage of people who endlessly complain about Microsoft. That said there are many talented people here trying to help those with questions and/or problems.

        Hang in there. Don’t be discouraged by your initial impression. Make it better by participating.

        --Joe

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        • #338984

          Unless you’re a victim of confirmation bias, you won’t see calling out Win10 for being the ginormous kludge that it is “endlessly complaining.” MS is marketing Win10 for the same reason it marketed every prior MS OS: profit churning. From a profit perspective, Win7 was a grave mistake. It was so (relatively) good, that roughly half its users are clinging to it the way shipwrecked people cling to the sides of overfilled lifeboats. If there were smart phones and other “devices” using Win7, its “satisfaction” numbers would be nearly as high as Win10, and that would be without the past several years of MS actively trying to force new users away from it. I got a good laugh out of the “other than the 1809 debacle” comment. above. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

          GaryK

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          • #338999

            There are many people who do not feel it is a kludge. When I have to work on a Win7 machine now it feels dated and clunky. Could there be a change to the update cycle? Perhaps a major – minor every six months might be better. BUT, I sure do not want to go back to a minimum three year cycle.

            People have either very short memories or have not been around very long. Almost every Windows release has been denigrated when first released. XP was the worst thing ever according to forums and press. It took too much resource, was unstable, would never work for gaming. Vista performance was horrible and compatibility worse. Microsoft changed the driver model and then the OEMs drug their feet in producing compatible drivers. Once the drivers caught up and OEMs started selling machines configured to support it Vista was actually pretty good. Win7 was a rush job to get rid of Vista. Gaming performance and stability was terrible. Look how long people kept XP PCs. Then the 8/8.1 debacle. Microsoft made a bad design decision with the Win8 start menu and had to rush out Win 8.1 to make it usable. Still XP PCs around. All in all a significant amount of complaining.

            --Joe

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            • #339202

              “There are many people who do not feel it is a kludge.”

              There were many people who felt the earth was flat. How people felt about it didn’t change anything, just as how people feel about Win10 doesn’t change its “kludginess” one way or the other.

              “People have either very short memories or have not been around very long.”

              Neither of these applies to me nor I suspect to about half of those who frequent AskWoody solely to get early alerts about the latest MS patching atrocity.

              “Almost every Windows release has been denigrated when first released. XP was the worst thing ever according to forums and press.”

              I’m pretty sure that honor belongs to Win95, but it might be a tie between that and Win8. Oh, wait–what about Vista? As a matter of fact, I recall XP as having gotten a (relatively) good reception. And I recall that Win7 wasn’t badly received, at least in the Professional/Small Business/Enterprise world. I wouldn’t know about the Home world.

              “Once the drivers caught up and OEMs started selling machines configured to support it Vista was actually pretty good.”

              That may be the case in the Home world (see above, “I wouldn’t know….). That was *not* the case in the other OS worlds. Vista was *never* pretty good, and businesses dumped it as soon as they possibly could.

              “Win7 was a rush job to get rid of Vista. Gaming performance and stability was terrible. Look how long people kept XP PCs.”

              Probably more accurate to say that Vista was an interim release while MS was preparing Win7. In the business world, people kept XP because it was stable for their needs and because the Win7 architecture was different enough that many XP-based apps wouldn’t run on it, and thus MS provided XP mode (*not* Vista mode), which eased and quickened the transition to Win7 (which is where nearly half the world’s business computers are still stubbornly lodged this many years after the introduction of, and in some cases attempted forced transition to, Win10)

              “All in all a significant amount of complaining.”

              Exactly! It’s not that businesses aren’t upgrading because they have a religious affiliation to Win7. Businesses, and this is one of the few absolute, universal truths, want an OS that makes it easier to get their work out. They don’t want difficult learning curves. They don’t want a billion new focus-group-suggested features that require entirely new menu structures that prevent employees from finding the functions they want. They don’t want fancy new graphics or translucent icons. They want an OS that gets out of the way quickly so employees can get their work done. Business are resisting upgrading, if they can, because Win7 meets their needs and Win10 doesn’t.

               

              GaryK

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            • #339253

              Perhaps we have different definitions of a kludge. Why don’t you be specific about what you consider to be a kludge in Win10.

              XP was derided as being too resource intensive thereby forcing hardware upgrades to support it. Business uptake did not start until SP-1. Gamers thought it would never be suitable for their use. Much as today, OEMs were reluctant to produce drivers for existing peripherals.

              No, really, VISTA was pretty good once the OEMs started producing good drivers. It did require a more powerful machine than would have been expected for a particular workload. With Vista SP-1 and the proper hardware it was solid. But by that time its reputation was so shot it could not recover. It is not accurate to say Vista was developed to be an interim release even though it worked out that way for many.

              I think you are not remembering Win7 upgrades correctly. Microsoft continued the work in changing default security and how accounts worked that started in Vista. For those many businesses who skipped Vista, Win7 was a major undertaking. Microsoft extended the XP drop dead date at least twice under pressure from enterprises who could not get Win7 deployed. Then they offered ongoing XP support for an outrageous amount of money. Perhaps you do not remember the complaints about the now “sainted” Aero UI changes. Or the complaints about the start menu changes. Or about Libraries and how confusing they were for the poor users. Or about UAC.

              Businesses are migrating to Win10 at pretty much their usual pace. It takes an incredible amount of effort for large organizations to test a new OS, change what must be changed, prepare training, etc. Many don’t even start until the end-of-support date is within sight. Businesses do not like upgrading IT infrastructure. Fortunately, most Win7 programs will run on Win10 unchanged.

              --Joe

      • #339122

        We bash Windows 10 as you put it, because Windows 10 can fail really hard sometimes and the interface is not cohesive after all the releases. (When a thing works well then we complain less, and a well functioning product may receive less overall complaints.)

        We bash Windows 10 because dedicated genuine quality assurance testing is a fixed cost of being in any real professional operating system or other software business. Windows 10 is now an exemplary demonstrative lesson of what happens when a QA department is disappeared.

        We also bash Window 10 in part because the foolish and/or very manipulatively cunning part of Windows 10’s driving force sits upon a throne at Microsoft and the whole of Microsoft is now dedicated to the mission.

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    • #338880

      How are they measuring “highest” anyway…? (I tried to look at the link and got only moving numers.)

      I thought that satisfaction as a percentage of satisfied users was pretty high way back with NT 3.51 on DEC Alpha hardware? Actually NT 3.51 on anything…

      • #338887

        According to the article, “highest” changes with each release. Microsoft tries to make each release better than the prior release.

        The other point in the blog entry was that different aspects of Windows require different measures of quality.

        --Joe

    • #338888

      I think this must be an article from TheOnion.com.

      Byte me!

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    • #338893

      Since Windows helped me move away from it to Linux, I’m currently at my higher satisfaction level so far. Confirmed! :]

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    • #338919

      nothing like secretly replacing the engines in your users’ cars at night to make sure they get the most current flawed version of junk you’ve produced.

       

      I might be a little jaded.

      Hey look! Another Feature Update!

      You mean I shouldn't click Check for Updates?

      Where is the Any key?

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    • #339004

      Part joke and part real. Iot and Windows 10. Not a lot to complain about. But a real worry for us.

      https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-exploit-lets-attackers-take-control-of-windows-iot-core-devices/

      And if the Iot thinks are being updated as well as Laptops and Desktops, look out!

      and my thoughts are how many of the “800” million Items are Iot’s?

      • #339254

        Updated on March 4: A Microsoft spokesperson contradicted the researcher’s claims and said that the testing interface is not enabled by default in retail images of Windows 10 IoT Core.

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    • #339020

      Reference the above conversations on older systems, I am assuming, that M$ considers an older OS as anything over 6 months ?

    • #339092

      You and I may not like it but once again they want to expend resources looking forward not backward

      The fingers in ears, “lalalalalalala everyone loves it! lalalalala” approach as usual from Microsoft.

      Not exactly “Satisfaction”, don’t ya think?

      They seemed to take this attitude from Ribbons onwards.

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    • #339093

      On a separate issue, let’s just look at this marketing hype shall we.

      The statement “The highest customer satisfaction in the history of Windows” this attempts to imply that satisfaction is high. It doesn’t, it can just as well imply that last month user satisfaction was 1% and this month it is 2%.

      In short the statement is meaningless without independent statistics to verify what percentage of users are satisfied, indifferent or unhappy and secondly, what constitutes a benchmark level that truly suggests that users are actually happy and what is it being compared against in the first place (i.e. which O/S).

      As it stands it appears to be simply empty marketing spin designed to mislead.

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      • #339172

        If you make that last decade instead of last month though, it means that people are happier with Windows 10 than Windows 7!

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        • #339330

          Non sequitur, it implies nothing whatsoever as there’s no evidence or proof of current happiness/satisfaction except for some empty words from a Microsoft PR suit.

          Forcing people to use something is not a measure of happiness and conflating what is two entirely separate factors is absurd.

          • #339341

            No one is forced to use Windows 10. Microsoft is not the Mafia.

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            • #339376

              If I go into work am told I have to use WIn10 or lose my job, and I have a family to support, I consider that being “forced” to use Win10. Would “required” be a better word?

              GaryK

            • #339600

              For most people this is not the case as, many consider Linux too difficult due to its “geeky” image and Apple is vastly overpriced.

              In any case, users taking the line of least resistance still does not equate to satisfaction.

    • #339098

      “… highest customer satisfaction in the history of Windows.”

      “… highest customer satisfaction in the history of Windows.”

      “… highest customer satisfaction in the history of Windows.”

      If you say almost anything loud enough and often enough, eventually many people will start believing it. Heck, you may even start believing it yourself.

      I’ll spare everyone a rant here, but I feel compelled to repeat what I’ve said before in other places in the Lounge: As a long-time Windows enthusiast, both in my work and at home, I used to look forward to upgrades and was always one of the earliest adopters. From Windows 3.1 through Windows 7, computing was fun.

      Then Windows 8 happened. As a TechNet subscriber and, for awhile at least, a Windows Insider, I tried it over and over with each new update, but always uninstalled it after much angst and frustration. The thing simply stank.

      Finally, with 8.1, I discovered the joys of WindowBlinds and Start 8. All was good again. For awhile. Beginning with the upgrade to Windows 10, Anniversary Upgrade, two of my four computers were bricked. Had to do bare-metal reinstalls on both. The other two worked, sorta, but both had problems that took way too much time to troubleshoot and solve. Some problems never did get solved. On all four computers. I just made do with them. But that was only the beginning.

      Thank goodness, I somehow discovered Woody Leonard’s AskWoody Website. I don’t even remember how. Probably during all those hours of researching the Web for answers to all my WIN 10 problems. If I hadn’t discovered this site, I’d no doubt be using Windows 8.1 with WindowBlinds and Start 8 today, and would be forced to learn the joys of Linux in a couple of years.

      But, here I learned how to waste a couple or three hours each month making backups, disk images, and tame the WIN 10 update and upgrade monster to the point where I now update and upgrade when I want to, not when Microsoft says I have to. It’s amazing how all the previous breaks, bricks, and hoses were brought to heel on all of my computers, too.

      Even so, spending so much time dealing with this WaaS madness has taken all the fun out of my computing experience. WaaS has made it drudgery, plain and simple. But, thanks to Woody and the many knowledgeable and helpful folks here at AskWoody, I’m coping, and for me, that’s good! 🙂

      I’m sure that, once you find your way around the site, all of you Windows Secrets folks will come to appreciate AskWoody as much as I do. If so, please consider chipping in a few bucks from time to time. Let’s all help keep a good thing going!

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #339142

      I use W10 Pro at work and W7U at home.

      W10 is much, and I do mean much, slower than W7.

      Am I satisfied? Yes, with W7.

       

      W10? Not so much.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #339163

        What are the system specs of each?

        What is the workload of each?

        --Joe

        • #339244

          “What are the system specs of each?

          What is the workload of each?”

          In a discussion of “satisfaction” with Windows, this is irrelevant. If I am working efficiently with Win7 and then forced to upgrade to an OS for which my hardware is inadequate, I am not going to be “satisfied” no matter how MS spins it. Beyond that, I am certainly not going to be “satisfied” if I am also forced to upgrade my hardware in order to achieve the same level of efficiency I had before. This is what the Win10 evangelists don’t ever talk about. I know what MS has gained by forcing people to Win10, but what have I gained?

          GaryK

          4 users thanked author for this post.
          • #339394

            It certainly is relevant. The post was talking about two different systems one at work and one at home. If the hardware is significantly different or the workload is significantly different that can greatly affect the perception of the OS. Just having a spinning HD at work and SSD at home could make a big difference in how the OS is perceived to work.

            --Joe

            2 users thanked author for this post.
            • #339400

              He goes into work (Win10) and doesn’t like his computing experience. He goes home (Win7) and does. It may be relevant to MS why he’s not satisfied with the former, but it is not relevant to him. If he has a chair at work that he doesn’t like and a chair at home he does, the purpose of the chairs is irrelevant to his “satisfaction” with the chairs. The answer to the question “Which do you like better” is the home chair. “Why?” (“it’s not as comfortable) is a different question. The topic of this thread is MS’s claim that satisfaction with Windows 10 is the highest it’s ever been. Without defining the parameters of that conclusion, it’s meaningless other than as marketing spin, which unlike its ability to code a stable, coherent product, MS is very good at.

              GaryK

              3 users thanked author for this post.
            • #339418

              The sole comment about satisfaction was that in his opinion Win10 was much slower than Win7. Based on your opinion about Microsoft’s post as being meaningless then the post was meaningless too as there were no parameters established for the conclusion. I am confident that Microsoft could bury us in a blizzard of statistics if they chose to. Since Mehdi chose to just publish a Tweet we are left with a thread like this.

              BTW, I understand and agree there is a large portion of marketing spin in the Microsoft post. That is routinely done by every tech company when talking about the latest product.

              --Joe

            • #339441

              Responses inline:

              “The sole comment about satisfaction was that in his opinion Win10 was much slower than Win7. Based on your opinion about Microsoft’s post as being meaningless then the post was meaningless too as there were no parameters established for the conclusion.”

              Beg to differ. The thread is about customer “satisfaction” which, though an amorphous concept, can be amorphously measured. Regardless of the metric, though, it is a measurement of a subjective reaction about which the poster has valid information, i.e. his own reaction to the product. Therefore it’s both meaningful and relevant to a thread about MS’s claim of high customer satisfaction. This is *not* a thread about why anyone might or might not be satisfied (i.e. inadequate hardware). It *is* a thread about whether someone *is* satisfied. Microsoft’s post, however, is meaningless because it doesn’t define in any useful way what it means by “satisfaction.” It’s not any different from any other marketing ploy that says that a product is “better.” A careful consumer is obliged always to ask, “Better than what?” In this case the question should be, “More satisfied as compared to what?”

              “I am confident that Microsoft could bury us in a blizzard of statistics if they chose to.”

              Absolutely no doubt of that. One would hope those statistics would be responsible, i.e., display an attempt to tack toward something resembling truth.

              “Since Mehdi chose to just publish a Tweet we are left with a thread like this.”

              There’s a reason Mehdi chose to just publish a vague, self-congratulating tweet.

              “BTW, I understand and agree there is a large portion of marketing spin in the Microsoft post. That is routinely done by every tech company when talking about the latest product.”

              Part–just part–of the point I and others are trying to make is that it is an Elasti-Girl-like stretch to call Win10 MS’s “latest product,” considering that having been launched July 29, 2015 it’s nearly four years old, which works out to nearly 40 in computer years.

              In an earlier post you asked for a definition of “kludge.” I’m happy with Wikipedia’s: “A kludge or kluge (/klʌdʒ, kluːdʒ/) is a workaround or quick-and-dirty solution that is clumsy, inelegant, inefficient, difficult to extend and hard to maintain.” By that definition, Win10 is a textbook kludge.

              GaryK

              2 users thanked author for this post.
            • #339444

              So then if metrics don’t make a difference as you stated “regardless of the metric” then Microsoft’s statement is just as valid. They don’t need to state metrics since all metrics do is define parameters. All they need to do is make a statement about what they have observed.

              Your expression of Win10 as a kludge is an opinion only with which I do not agree. Please provide your metrics to support your opinion.

              --Joe

            • #339458

              “So then if metrics don’t make a difference as you stated “regardless of the metric” then Microsoft’s statement is just as valid.”

              I said nothing about validity. Validity is a logical concept. Of course MS’s statement is valid. I said it wasn’t meaningful, i.e. no one can pinpoint what it means.

              “They don’t need to state metrics since all metrics do is define parameters. All they need to do is make a statement about what they have observed.”

              That’s inaccurate. “Define parameters” is not all metrics do. Again, from Wikipedia: “Metric (unit), a measure for quantitatively assessing, controlling or selecting a person, process, event, or institution.” That aside, I said nothing about MS having to state metrics. I said they had to define their terms. It’s a basic requirement of communication. Words don’t mean what only the speaker wants them to mean. They mean what everyone in the conversation agrees that they mean; otherwise meaningful conversation is impossible. It’s like football. We have to all agree on the boundary lines.

              “Your expression of Win10 as a kludge is an opinion only with which I do not agree. Please provide your metrics to support your opinion.”

              You asked me to define how I was using “kludge.” I did, using a broadly-accepted definition. If you want to use a different definition, then please provide it. Just as an aside, as a rule definitions don’t require metrics.

              GaryK

    • #339226

      Microsoft is altruistic.

      Group B for WIN7 w/ ESU, plus trying out Linux builds in dual boot.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #339231

      2vleex

      I think this is accurate.

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #339294

      Microsoft is altruistic.

      With respect to all specialists giving their advices:

      But how hard is it to make a production tool without it gets broken all the time, and production holds still because of that?

      * _ being 20 in the 70's was fun _ *
      • #339353

        My production tool may not perform quite as solidly as in its youth, but with regular attention it can still be reinvigorated with patience and is far from broken; up-dates can keep older tools going longer to satisfy requirements.

      • #339380

        Considering there are tens of thousands of software products that don’t get broken all the time, not that hard. Considering my XP didn’t and my Win7 doesn’t get broken all the time, not that hard. The problem with Win10 is that MS’s reach exceeded its grasp. It has marketed an OS that is trying to serve too many constituencies and as a result serves too few of them well. There’s nothing wrong with ambition if your abilities–in this case coding–are up to your ambitions. This discussion reminds me of those home-buying reality shows: I want a house in the middle of the city but it *has* to be on the water.

        GaryK

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #339357

      Microsoft causes $Trillion in damages with every Patch Tuesday to users with faulty updates, data lose, crashed PCs, time lose….

      Oh, I missed the info about that. Please post the link, thanks.

      Lugh.
      ~
      Alienware Aurora R6; Win10 Home x64 1803; Office 365 x32
      i7-7700; GeForce GTX 1060; 16GB DDR4 2400; 1TB SSD, 256GB SSD, 4TB HD

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      b
    • #339410

      Global market share held by operating systems for desktop PCs, from January 2013 to January 2019

      Since shortly after the release of Windows 8 (late 2012), and continuing through the Windows 10 push, the share of desktop computers using Windows has declined steadily from 90% to 75%. Note that these figures do not include tablets or phones.

       

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #339415

      I will not accept his display of thanksgiving, Windows 10 is not a gift nor any kind of blessing. That posting is absolutely also internally self serving to Microsoft.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #339503

      On a HDD sitting at the corner of my desk are drive images for Windows 7 Ultimate, the last iteration of Windows 7 on this machine before I upgraded this side of my dual boot desktop to Windows 10 Pro.  I could restore those drive images to this hardware probably in less than 30 minutes, and be running Windows 7 Ultimate again just like it ran before the upgrade to Windows 10.

      But I won’t do that, because I much prefer Windows 10.

      Windows 10 Pro simply has Windows 7 Ultimate beat in every category that matters to me.  It makes more efficient use of this hardware than Windows 7.  Windows networking is better than in Windows 7.  This installation is a direct upgrade from Windows 7 Ultimate.  On the other side of my dual boot is an installation of Windows 10 Pro that was first Windows 7 Ultimate, then Windows 8 Pro, Windows 8.1 Pro, and finally Windows 10 Pro.  I don’t do clean installs; I do upgrades.  Experts recommend clean installs, but I’m my own expert in Windows, and I recommend upgrades for me.

      As a result of upgrading instead of doing clean installations of each iteration of Windows, the better parts of the older OS are preserved.  I have options in my Windows 10 Pro that are not available to clean installations of Windows 10 Pro.  I recently read a reply in a thread complaining about the sound options disappearing from Windows 10.  I still have sound options; they’re left over from Windows 7 Ultimate.  I still get the Windows 7 startup sound on a restart.

      I use StartIsBack++ instead of the Windows 10 Start Menu.  It was ~$3 per installation for a lifetime license.  I don’t see tiles, I see the Windows 7 Start Menu with the addition of the Windows XP folder flyout menu.  Virtually all of the customizations that I could do in Windows 7 I can do in Windows 10.

      On this side of my dual boot I kept Windows 7 Ultimate as my daily driver, until it finally became obvious that it was no longer my daily driver—I was spending most of my time in Windows 10 Pro.  After that realization, I did some time trials comparing the two OS versions, launching programs, transferring files, etc.  In every case Windows 10 Pro either equalled, or in most cases was faster than, Windows 7 Ultimate.  That is a direct comparison between the two versions of Windows on the exact same hardware, the same workload.

      I’ve read of the many and varied problems with unexpected updates, restarts in the middle of working on something important, programs breaking, etc. but I have not had any of those experiences.  I’m also the “friend who knows computers”, and to my knowledge, none of my friends have had those problems, either.  One friend is running Windows 10 Home on an 11 year old Gateway that he bought with Vista pre-installed.  He doesn’t have any of those problems, and he uses his machine in his convenience store.

      Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
      We were all once "Average Users". We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems, we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #339708

      I had two computers useing win 7  the best one was purchased 1 month before w10 was released I took both to local staples store geeks had them upgraded with in six months they both crashed unrepairable I’ll never buy another  Microsoft product for the rest of my life  I blame  ms w10 for robbing me of the 2400$ i had invested in my computors . 2400 $ is not that much to some one like gates but to a retired hard working old man its beyond my ability to splurge on that B.S,

      Thank you Calvin warrfield

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