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  • The whack-a-mole approach to running Windows 7 on newer machines

    Home Forums AskWoody blog The whack-a-mole approach to running Windows 7 on newer machines

    This topic contains 46 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  woody 2 months, 2 weeks ago.

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    • #109727 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      The Zeffy approach apparently works well – but it’s ephemeral, as Zeffy points out.

      [See the full post at: The whack-a-mole approach to running Windows 7 on newer machines]

      • This topic was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  woody.
    • #109729 Reply

      AlexN
      AskWoody Lounger

      Isn’t Whack-a-Mole (I loved that game) the approach to all OSs though?  The OS is programmed (whether Window, Mac, Linux, or even Solaris) and then as vulnerabilities are found in the code the manufacturer releases patches.

      Now, when the manufacturer starts finding ways to introduce vulnerabilities (see Windows 7 on Kaby Lake and Razer), you’ve got a huge mess on your hands.

      Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
      A weatherman that can code

      • #109737 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        That was not always the case.

        Once, there was the idea (almost a standard, really) that the SYSTEM software that was the cornerstone to computer operation had to be be better – i.e., more fully tested, more stable, bug-free – than APPLICATION software.

        Only the highest-level engineers were considered worthy of OS work, while just anyone could be an application programmer. People with degrees in other disciplines – or without degrees at all – became application programmers.

        Do you notice Microsoft doesn’t differentiate between the two realms at all any more?

        The reality is that they really haven’t been working in the SYSTEM realm much since Dave Cutler applied his virtual memory system design expertise to making NT. Where did that expertise (and design philosophy) come from? Digital Equipment Corporation. And look how long it has been state-of-the-art.

        Now, whack-a-mole indeed. Except that I don’t think the introduction of new problems is entirely by accident.

        Today’s “OS design” philosophy resembles the old joke I first saw expressed on an Apple II: If you pair an infinite number of monkeys up with an infinite number of typewriters and give them an infinite time to play, sooner or later all the great works will be written.

        Microsoft has become the most adept manager of mediocrity there ever was.

        -Noel

        6 users thanked author for this post.
        • #109849 Reply

          Karlston
          AskWoody Lounger

          A quote from https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html

          You may probably want to know why Windows 10 feels so buggy. Here’s a very nice <abbr title=”https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10937526″>quote</abbr>:

          Full Disclosure: I worked at M$ from 2014-2015.

          MS has some very talented programmers. They’re not very common, but they exist. The problem is that the entire company is completely and totally focused on developing an absurd number of new features and products, giving them completely unrealistic deadlines, and then shipping software on those deadlines no matter how half-assed or buggy it is.

          The idea is that everything is serviceable over the internet now, so they can just “fix it later”, except they never do. This perpetuates a duct-tape culture that refuses to actually fix problems and instead rewards teams that find ways to work around them. The talented programmers are stuck working on code that, at best, has to deal with multiple badly designed frameworks from other teams, or at worst work on code that is simply scrapped. New features are prioritized over all but the most system-critical bugs, and teams are never given any time to actually focus on improving their code. The only improvements that can happen must be snuck in while implementing new features.

          As far as M$ is concerned, all code is <bleep>, and the only thing that matters is if it works well enough to be shown at a demo and shipped. Needless to say, I don’t work there anymore.

          The above link makes for an interesting read, and despite being a little disorganised, shouldn’t be dismissed as just another Windows rant.

          Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

          4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #109745 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Just a note, as I mentioned yesterday (and kind of Herr Born confirmed it:

      http://borncity.com/win/2017/04/20/windows-78-1-preview-rollups-kb4015552-and-kb4015553/

      Carizzo DDR4 error is NOT fixed in the preview, so most likely the issue will not be resolved in May rollup.

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit + Windows 10 Mobile (Lumia 735)
      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #109755 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      Many questions have to be asked of the user at this point, IMHO –
      1) Do you believe MS will push out non-destructive updates to 7/8.1 systems?
      2) If the answer to 1 is ‘yes’, how bad do you want those updates?
      3) Is there any doubt whether your system is on the supported list?
      4) If the answer to 3 is ‘no’, do you believe MS will honor that and not “mistakenly” [heavy sarcasm] flag it as incompatible?
      5) How many hoops are you willing to jump through, and for how long?

      I know the knee-jerk is “use Linux” and I get that some people can’t go that way.
      So you’re left with basically 2 options if you’re refusing 10 at all costs:
      A) Join group W, shut off Windows Update 3 years early
      B) Hop through the minefield, and the hoops as necessary.

      I still think MS is doing this completely and wholly on purpose, and expects that eventually, people will just give up and cave in. The problem I think they’re going to have, because their attitude and their history makes it hard for them to accept the facts (or make them willing), is that a lot of people have caved in – and switched to Mac or Linux. Or shut off WU for good. It’s almost like MS assumes that “caving in” means you accept 10 as your lord and savior, and that will continue being their downfall. All that glitters is not gold.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #109754 Reply

      anonymous

      Why not inject a dll (take your pick of methods) that checks the version of the dll and dynamically patches it (in memory) if the version is supported to be “fixed”. It could be adjustable (saved settings) to try to patch unknown versions, or not.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #109757 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        Interesting idea, but I like abbodi86’s approach better…

    • #109758 Reply

      Rock
      AskWoody Lounger

      How long does this strong armed and ineffective Windows 10 enforcement policy have to go on until the shareholders at Microsoft demand the CEO to step down?

      • #109761 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        Nadella’s done very well with Microsoft’s stock price.

        Windows is no longer relevant to Microsoft’s future. Hasn’t been for a long time.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkAzMiEUUQ8

        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #109777 Reply

          Rock
          AskWoody Lounger

          Well maybe that’s the reason why it seems “Windows” is going to h**l in a hand basket. The ones who own and develop it really do not care about it. Nor do they care about the impact of their decisions. If Windows fails, its fails and they will move on to something else.

          Edited for content

          • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  PKCano.
        • #109876 Reply

          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody Lounger

          I have said it before and will say it again. Vote with your wallet. Try to use the least amount of Microsoft possible, never anything from the store, no Bing, no Edge, no Cortana, no cloud service, mail service, xbox, etc. If they start making less money, maybe they will get the message.

          4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #109891 Reply

          anonymous

          woody says, “Windows is no longer relevant to Microsoft’s future. Hasn’t been for a long time.

          That’s because Windows has an effective market-monopoly since the 2000s = a captive market of about 90%. For eg, most businesses/companies/enterprises today just can’t up and leave the MS-Windows ecosphere for another desktop OS.
          Only tech giants like Google and Facebook could afford to do so, ie hire Linux professionals in order to be able to adopt the Linux ecosphere to run their huge data-servers/centers and websites.

          • #109956 Reply

            MrJimPhelps
            AskWoody MVP

            Many companies are already running Linux on their servers. It’s on the desktop where Microsoft is dominant.

    • #109762 Reply

      NoLoki
      AskWoody Lounger

      When the CEO is making the shareholders rich, they will not demand he step down. What consumers think of the CEO is not a factor in the direction or vision the CEO has set out for the company. S. Nadella is considered by those who track CEO performance, a great asset to Microsoft. From a business perspective he is considered one of the most influential players in the future of IT.

      Dominance in The Cloud is still an Enterprise objective for Microsoft. If you read anything that Nadella espouses, he never references the desktop. Windows 10 is a project that is a part of Windows as a Service. Read his lips; W10 is a means to an end.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #109766 Reply

      Seff
      AskWoody Lounger

      “Many advanced Windows users don’t trust Windows 10 and want to run Windows 7 (or rarely 8.1) on newer, faster hardware.”

      I think it’s a lot simpler than that.

      Windows 7 users were told their OS would be supported until January 2020. That’s what they want, neither more nor less. Similar considerations apply to 8.1 users.

      • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Seff.
      6 users thanked author for this post.
      • #109770 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        Windows 7 users were told their OS would be supported until January 2020. That’s what they want, neither more nor less. Similar considerations apply to 8.1 users.

        When I think of “support” (i.e. what Microsoft promised to Windows 7 and 8.1 users), I think of the way it used to be, not the way it is now. The idea of “support” used to mean that the vendor would assist me in using the computer the way I want to, within the limitations of the OS. But I was in control of the process; I could say yes or no to the steps which were followed by the vendor in order to give me “support”.

        But Microsoft has redefined “support” to mean that they are now in control of the process. It’s no longer what I want help with; it’s what they want to “help” me with.

        It’s no longer support, it’s coercion.

        5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #109769 Reply

      Charlie
      AskWoody Lounger

      Windows is no longer relevant to Microsoft’s future. Hasn’t been for a long time.

      Then they ought to sell it (Windows) to someone who cares.  Maybe a new company or even a subsidiary to handle just Windows & Windows software.  I’m pretty sure all those former employees that got laid off from MS would be glad to go back to work!

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #109775 Reply

      MrBrian
      AskWoody MVP

      A couple of corrections:

      1. “May 2017 Monthly Rollup preview” should be “April 2017 Monthly Rollup preview.”

      2. “A look at the new May 2017 Monthly Rollup preview, released two days ago, reveals there is a new wuaueng.dll ready to be rolled out.”

      For Windows 7, the version of wuaueng.dll is the same in the April 2017 monthly rollup (7.6.7601.23735) as the April 2017 monthly rollup preview.

    • #109802 Reply

      anonymous

      Why is MSFT making such a mess? Pick your answer:

      (1) MSFT employees are not too bright.

      (2) MSFT’s agenda is trying to push everyone to the CLOUD. That is why Windows becomes a service. And it is already happening: Office 365. That is why the stock market is rewarding MSFT.

    • #109803 Reply

      DeWayne12
      AskWoody Lounger

      Microsoft has become the most adept manager of mediocrity there ever was. -Noel

      Love that line 😉

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #109820 Reply

      BobbyB
      AskWoody Lounger

      Well thinking ahead here after reading Greg Kiezers interesting article http://www.computerworld.com/article/3191427/microsoft-windows/developer-lifts-windows-7s-update-blockade-with-unsanctioned-patch.html
      and doing some research here with a copy of “Resource Hacker” (Win7 folks may know it from editing Authui.dll to remove the awful flower & frame from the Win7 Logon screen) and of course the errant wuaueng.dll. It raises a few questions well certainly in my mind, even though not affected by these processors.
      Firstly as we are in the “Brave new World” of “Roll up updates” since last Oct is this going to be a monthly Ritual? From what I see to do it “Feehand” without the “magic patch” is a real nightmare but doable.
      Secondly as we are in Monthly Roll up’s they are a compilation of all the Previous, updates naturally so will the patch be a one fix for all or a case of here we go again?
      Thirdly would keeping a modified copy of wuaueng.dll (thx @anonymous above) on hand or appending the name with .BAK work as a quick fix on Patch “Tuesday” aka “Terrible tuesday? (thats normally what I do to get round the Authui.dll fix that occurs when they release a “Stacks” update 1-2 a year just copy and paste the old beast in or rename)
      Fourth are M$ going to let this workaround continue given that its an almost blatent “Corperate slap in the Chops?” Given that modern corperate culture doesent like to be proved wrong or made a mockery of.
      Fifth what about the uninitated with a brand new machine, Hates Win10 and Immediatly slaps a copy of good old Win7 in? Does the first round of updates and “Bam!” end of story, Modern machines rarely these days ship with any recovery media, and almost inevitably installing another OS or Dual Booting negates the recovery partitions to the point where they wont work, So is it off to the local Computer store and or ordering recovery Media from the OEM? More Bucks 🙁 .

      Lastly, sorry about this more questions than answers, why spend so much time and resources modifying updates to “Pi** o** your client base when you still have 3 years of official support left to offer on Win7? Surely rather than compiling nasty surprise’s in updates wouldnt the money be better spent on actually working with the client base and giving support because you know some ones going to find a workaround. Ohh wait they did, so is it going to be an M$ workaround for the workaround? Is this really progress when customer satisfaction is an out-moded concept and Corperate stuborness aided by the “Dead Hand” of Marketing promotes the message “My way or the Highway?”
      M$ might want to have a “Gander” at a map theres lots of Highways out there, Ohh and dont use the Maps App in Windows 10 its about as accurate as the other side of town in my case. Good Job I dont use it to Navigate with LOL 😉

      • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  BobbyB.
      • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  BobbyB.
    • #109841 Reply

      MrBrian
      AskWoody MVP

      Here is an alternate method: Installing Win updates on Win 7 or 8.1 computers with Kaby Lake or Ryzen CPUs. There are also a few posts in that thread devoted to Group B users.

      • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  MrBrian.
      • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  MrBrian.
    • #109888 Reply

      James Bond 007
      AskWoody Lounger

      Woody, you asked “You gotta wonder why Microsoft’s continuing this self-destructive push. We need more carrots, fewer sticks.” But then you said :

      Nadella’s done very well with Microsoft’s stock price.

      Windows is no longer relevant to Microsoft’s future. Hasn’t been for a long time.

      So I think you have more or less already answered your own question. From that CEO’s perspective, Microsoft’s stock price has risen, the shareholders are happy, so why does he even need to change the present course?

      Treat consumers as unpaid alpha/beta testers? No problem.
      Twice-a-year upgrades with tons of bugs? No problem.
      Make customers unhappy with all these Windows “policies”? No problem.

      I don’t think we can depend on Microsoft to change for the “better”. That CEO, IMO, won’t even care if his policies cause Windows’ failure or death in the future.

      Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #109925 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Hype rules, reality drools.

        Something is wrong with the business world.

        -Noel

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #109941 Reply

        AlexEiffel
        AskWoody Lounger

        But does Nadella create value or just hype? If it is the latter, stock prices might rise, but in the long run, we’ll see that he has no clothes. He is the Bing guy and Bing was supposed to crush Google like Netscape, remember?

        They might be doing well in the cloud business, but that would not be Nadella, just the fact that if you take the dependency on Office and tools and put it online, you just moved the business to a more profitable one, no need to be a genius for that. I will follow Office where it goes because I can’t be without Office. If I can run it from a Mac as well as on a PC, maybe I will not be on a PC.

        Guess what will happen to the price when lots of companies will have replaced their Exchange server with the cloud. Right now, they are still in honey pot mode.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #110054 Reply

        Karlston
        AskWoody Lounger

        I read somewhere that Nadella’s pay (or was it a bonus?) is tied directly to Windows 10 adoption.

        That would go at least some of the way to explaining Microsoft’s do-whatever-it-takes and d**n-the-torpedoes-users Windows 10 forcing strategies.

        Edited for content

        Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

        • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  PKCano.
        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #110107 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody Lounger

        I don’t think we can depend on Microsoft to change for the “better”. That CEO, IMO, won’t even care if his policies cause Windows’ failure or death in the future.

        I think he will care– and he’ll consider it a success.

        I’ve mentioned this before, but the more I think about it, the more I conclude that it’s the only thing that makes any sense.  I don’t think MS wants to be in the Windows business anymore.  It only generates ~10% of their profit, if the unverified blurb I read is correct, and with everyone convinced the PC is going away, that’s no doubt forecast to continue to decline into the foreseeable future.  The costs to develop and maintain Windows are high, and they don’t scale favorably with fewer and fewer Windows purchasers over the years.  They may well have a forecast that Windows will become a net loss for them someday.  I’d be surprised if they don’t.

        As such, I think it is quite possible that MS is looking to execute an exit strategy as far as the general-purpose OS market goes.  They can’t just drop it, though; they are obliged to support various versions for up to another 8 years.  They could sell the Windows division (complete with support obligations) to someone else or spin it off into a new company… but that Windows monopoly they’ve built over the years is a heck of an asset, maybe too big of one to let it go out the door.

        Perhaps what they’re doing now is liquidating that asset.  By “monetizing” their Windows users in every way possible, they’d be converting that market share and the remaining goodwill their customers have into dollars.  They’ll keep ratcheting up the monetizing for short term cash until all of their customers conclude that they’d be better off without Microsoft and move on to something else.  At that point, the Windows franchise will be nothing but a dried-out husk of what it used to be.  It won’t be worth much, but MS will have made a lot of extra money by then.

        At that point, MS will sell what’s left of Windows to another company or spin it off into an independent company.

        Everything MS is doing now makes sense if you consider that MS is trying to destroy Windows in the long term while realizing short-term profit gains.  Even the things that don’t seem directly tied to monetizing customers are efforts to do just that.  The forced updates and telemetry, for example, enable MS to turn the non-LTSB customers into free beta testers, saving them the money of paying people to do QA.  A penny saved is a penny earned, right?

        It doesn’t end there, though.  MS is trying a lot of new ideas… they just keep throwing stuff out there and gauging the response.  The forced updates allow them to rapidly implement any new idea they may have for monetizing the users in the future– and you can bet they will.  What’s the angle they have on the rapid updates?  Your guess is as good as mine, but you can bet it’s about extracting short-term profit without any concern about long-term viability.

        That’s why it’s so important to MS that everyone be on 10.  It’s not because they want to reduce support costs by having everyone in one version of Windows now, as so many MS syncophants claim– MS is obligated to provide a certain level of support for older versions of Windows regardless of how many (or few) people still use them.  Unless one believes that they could conceivably get every person currently using 7 or 8 onto 10 well before the end of support date, they can’t stop supporting the older versions earlier than that.

        MS knows that some people will stick with older versions of Windows, and those of us who do are of no use to them.   If we won’t move to 10, we can’t be monetized, and that makes us dead weight.  If we sit on 7 or 8 as Windows is destroyed, we will eventually have to move on just like everyone else once the franchise dies, but we’ll do it without ever having been monetized.

        That, if true, would explain why MS seems so unconcerned about harming the Windows franchise or the future viability of Windows as a platform.  If they already know there won’t be a future for Windows, it simply does not matter.  They’d be betting on the tremendous lock-in they have to keep people in the line of fire long enough to extract some extra value from them before they leave.  Satisfaction with Windows 10 is not required; you just have to be using it.  That would explain… well, everything.

        MS has been in the OS business a long time, and they’ve had a monopoly for a long time too.  Still, they’ve never treated their customers like this before.  I think the difference is that they once actually wanted to keep those Windows customers.

        5 users thanked author for this post.
        • #110114 Reply

          anonymous

          Ascaris says, “MS has been in the OS business a long time, and they’ve had a monopoly for a long time too. Still, they’ve never treated their customers like this before. I think the difference is that they once actually wanted to keep those Windows customers.”

          For M$, the Big Money$ comes from Enterprise, not from consumers. In trying to extract more money from the Enterprises/businesses, ie by preventing most of them from using Windows Ent for about 10 years until EOL, M$ have turned Win 10 into a perpetual unstable beta-ware, except for the Win 10 Ent E5 Volume Licensed(VL) LTSB edition which costs a bundle to buy.

          Notice that before Win 10, new Windows version come out about once every 3 years, even though it was not really needed, eg Win ME, Win Vista and Win 8. So happened, lease/rental/subscription of Windows Ent VL which required the buying of Software Assurance or Insurance “premiums” come in 3-year terms = “free” upgrade within 3 years = Big money earner for MS. Similarly, Office 365 enjoys “free” upgrades as long as the subscriptions/rental/lease is paid to M$.
          . . . Now, Win 10 comes with new versions twice a year. Each Win 10 version has an EOL of about 18 to 24 months. Those enterprises/businesses who buy a new version of Win 10 Ent E3 VL can only use them for 18 to 24 months, and not 10 years like before, unless they pay double for Ent E5 VL LTSB.

          • #111053 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody Lounger

            Anon, I think it still fits into the “monetize them now, drive them away eventually” strategy.

            LTSB is, from what I have gathered, not meant to be a general-purpose OS for business.  It’s for mission-critical stuff where absolute API stability is mandatory (like manufacturing control and POS devices), but where new feature updates are not required.  Of course, what MS tries to sell it as and what it works for may be quite different, but I have a feeling MS has ways of enforcing its marketing plans for LTSB just as much as they do with the “have to have Windows 10 for Kaby or Ryzen” diktat.

            For enterprise customers who do not want to live on the bleeding edge of the CB, MS intends for them to use the CBB (current branch for business).  It’s delayed four months from the CB, and allows eight more months of deferral, but that still only gets to 12 months past the initial release date, not 18… though an enterprise customer probably has an IT department that handles updates locally rather than simply allowing MS to do it the way non-enterprise customers do.

            At any rate, the clock starts ticking once a build is released.  Only two options exist if a business wishes to avoid the bleeding-edge CB and make use of all 18 months of support: Vet a new build for six months, then deploy and use it for twelve, or vet each build for twelve months, then deploy and use it for six.

            MS is fully aware how long it takes a large corporation to test and roll out new Windows versions.  It’s not something to be taken lightly– but it appears that MS is.  Deploying a new Windows every 12 months is a nightmare scenario, and is sure to drive IT support costs into the stratosphere.

            I’m sure there will be all sorts of ways MS can monetize all of this… if LTSB costs more than CBB and can really be used for general-purpose stuff without MS sabotaging them, that’s one way right there.  I am sure that is, and will be, one of many ways for MS to try to bleed corporations dry.  To keep it up forever, though, would require that their monopoly last forever, and history shows us that they don’t (how’s that Internet Explorer doing, MS?).

            Whatever MS does to squeeze more cash out of their enterprise customers will (of course) add direct cost, but so does the rapid release schedule that will have their IT department planning OS deployments nearly full-time, in addition to all the other stuff they do.  This rapid-release schedule benefits no one but MS, but it appears to be a central feature of what MS calls “Windows as a service.”  Unless the goal of the rapid updates is to churn out new and “innovative” ways of monetizing Windows users, why is MS doing it?  Home users don’t want it.  Business users don’t want it.  It costs MS money to be frenetically releasing these feature updates no one asked for.  So why is MS doing it?   That, as with Microsoft’s aggression toward their customers (non-enterprise especially), is the $64,000 question.

            It has to reach a point where the pointy-haired boss has had enough and does what Ernie Ball or IBM have done (that is, move to Linux or Mac, respectively).  I think this is by design from Microsoft’s point-of-view.  In the cloudy world, the local OS won’t matter; Linux, Windows, MacOS, Android, iOS, and ChromeOS users will all be potential Microsoft cloud customers.

            We may yet see the much-predicted but thus far elusive year of the Linux desktop.

            The post-mortem of all of this, whether it fails or succeeds, will be taught in business schools for decades to come.  It may take that long to truly understand whether Nadella is crazy like a fox or just crazy.  One thing appears certain, though– it does not look good for the future of Windows as we know it (a real OS, not a thin-client style front-end for MS cloud services).

            1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #111065 Reply

              anonymous

              Ascaris said, ” It costs MS money to be frenetically releasing these feature updates no one asked for.

              Actually, it doesn’t cost M$ much money because software developers and programmers/coders on M$’s payroll are being paid the same salary whether they work more to release feature updates or new Win 10 Versions twice a year or work less to release feature updates once a year or once in 2 years.

              The quicker cycle of two new Win 10 Versions in a year will result in each new Version having an EOL of about 18 months. This will require corporations who intend to buy Win 10 Ent E3 VL having to buy new Ent E3 VL again after about 18 months = which is less cost-effective than just leasing/subscribing Win 10 Ent E3 VL which allows “free” Version upgrades through Software Assurance, similar to Office 365 subscriptions which get perpetual “free” upgrades.
              . . IOW, M$ is purposely creating this situation, in order to push corporations to lease/subscribe, instead of buy, Win 10 Ent E3 VL. Previously, many corporations have bought Win 7/8.1 Ent VL and will be using them for about 10 years until EOL in 2020/2023 before they upgrade. M$ wanna prevent this from happening again.

    • #109948 Reply

      anonymous

      For Microsoft this is the way they categorize the ‘Windows user’ …
      Home/Pro (Consumers) are customers.
      Enterprise/Education are clients.

      Customer: someone who buys goods from a business
      Clients: someone who purchases professional services

      (Consumer is another more impersonal term for people who USE a product)

      MS has always built their Windows strategy based on Enterprise first. This has become even more apparent with the introduction of Windows 10. This aligns with their corporate strategy. Bill Gates believed that if you got the school kiddies and big business hooked on Windows, you had the home user and small/medium sized business in the bag. It worked.

    • #109995 Reply

      anonymous

      Forgive for this disgressing of mine, but I wonder whether if new CPU generations do not get W7/W8 updates anymore, does this mean that W7/W8 could not be used to even run these new hardware generations WITHOUT wanting to update Windows? If somebody buys new hardware, latest CPU generation (later than Skylark), and he installs W7, and maybe SP2 for it  from an old DVD – and he switches off WU – would it work, or not? Are people who are buying new hardware and wanting to use W7 stuck with the – depleting – supplies of Skylark processors?

       

      Skybird

      • #110015 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        Skybird:

        If you aren’t concerned about updates, then there shouldn’t be any reason that you couldn’t run Windows 7 or 8 on a Skylake or newer processor. The only negative reports I’ve heard about running 7 or 8 on a Skylake processor is with the update issue.

        Skylake is the newest processor (from Intel) available at this time, so we won’t know for sure about newer processors until they are available for testing. But I’m confident that they will work. The only concern (other than the update issue) might be that there is some new technology built into the processor, but that Windows 7/8 can’t take advantage of it.

        Jim

        • #110020 Reply

          Pim
          AskWoody Lounger

          Jim, just a small correction: Kaby Lake is the current generation, Skylake the previous, but still widely available. Kaby Lake has the update issue, Skylake not, but possibly in the future if it is not a computer from Microsoft’s “list”.

          • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Pim. Reason: Added info on update issue
          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #110029 Reply

            MrJimPhelps
            AskWoody MVP

            I have heard conflicting information about Skylake — some say that all Skylake computers will receive Windows 7/8 updates, while others say that not all Skylake computers will receive Windows 7/8 updates.

            I purchased a new Haswell computer from Dell a year ago, so I guess I haven’t fully caught up with what is currently out there!

            • #110030 Reply

              anonymous

              Thank you both.

              I plan to replace my aging Windows 7 flightsimulator (FSX/P3D) and racesim (Assetto Corsa) launching platform from around 2010 later this year, or by the end of this year. With everything else (work, email, browsing, text and photo editing), I am already on a second Linux system. Its just these two Windows-depending simulators, that’s why I ask. Else I would not worry for Windows anymore at all.

              Skybird

            • #110123 Reply

              Pim
              AskWoody Lounger

              I have heard conflicting information about Skylake — some say that all Skylake computers will receive Windows 7/8 updates, while others say that not all Skylake computers will receive Windows 7/8 updates.

              You can blame that on Micrsoft’s “art of communication”.  Nobody really knows the details and maybe even inside Microsoft they don’t know it yet. Officially only Skylake computers on Microsoft’s list are supported until EOL of the respective Windows version. That announcement was made in the beginning of 2016 and changed a couple of times, but always only with respect to computers on the supported computer list. That is where a lot of sites went wrong: they interpreted the change as a change for all Skylake computers, instead of only the ones on the supported list.

              If you read carefully, nothing has been said about those other Skylake computers, including custom build ones. Logically updates should have stopped back in 2016 if one takes everything that has been said literally. However, all Skylake systems still get updates until now. The big question is whether Microsoft will halt Windows Updates for those Skylake systems sometime in the (near) future. That is a question I haven’t seen any answer to yet.

              • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Pim. Reason: Corrected typo
      • #110014 Reply

        anonymous

        You can still use Win 7/8.1 as much as you want – you just won’t be able to install updates.

        • #110031 Reply

          anonymous

          Thanks to you as well for taking the time.

          Skybird

    • #110041 Reply

      anonymous

      Kaby Lake and Zen have new features and technologies that require significant updates to Windows 10 to optimally function.

      Kaby Lake has updates to Intel’s Speed Shift technology that make it possible to change power states more quickly than Skylake. With Intel’s Turbo Boost Technology 3.0, performance can be improved by identifying the fastest core on a particular processor die and prioritizing critical workloads for that core. It requires the installation of a driver and secondary utility that launches with the OS. It will be baked right into W10 for the desktop.

      Zen has fine-grained clock gating with multi-level regions throughout the chip. And Zen will also mark the introduction of newer Simultaneous Multi-Threading technology for AMD chips. To properly leverage the tech in Zen, Microsoft will likely have to make updates to the Windows kernel and system scheduler to optimize it for W10.

      Older versions of Windows and alternative operating systems will still install and run on Kaby Lake and Zen – they are X86 processors. Older versions of Windows won’t be optimized for the platforms and won’t receive future updates.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #110086 Reply

      EP
      AskWoody Lounger
    • #110214 Reply

      EP
      AskWoody Lounger

      Also read this issue from Github:
      https://github.com/zeffy/kb4012218-19/issues/7

      Seems like the April 2017 security updates for Win7/8.1 have clobbered some old Intel Atom CPUs like the Intel Atom Z530 and some Win7/8.1 users are unable to check for new updates from WU and zeffy’s patch allows checking for updates again.

      If that turns out to be true, then this is an embarrassing situation for Microsoft.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #111747 Reply

      GoTheSaints
      AskWoody Lounger

      When reading all of the comments on zeffy’s thread https://github.com/zeffy/kb4012218-19/issues/4, there is a guy who commented named Levicki. He posted a link where he aired his grievances about the blocking of these processors on the Intel forum and why Intel was doing nothing about it.

      https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/intel-isa-extensions/topic/731318

      It’s a good read and he certainly knows his stuff. The Intel employee became quite snarky in his replies to Levicki.

      gts

       

      • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  GoTheSaints.
    • #113411 Reply

      anonymous

      What if I say that Ivy Bridge is also banned? ))

      • #113440 Reply

        PKCano
        AskWoody MVP

        We have seen no reports of Ivy Bridge processors being blocked from Windows Update, but I am unable to read the messages. If the left box says “Incompatible Hardware” you should report it on the Microsoft Answers Forum.

        However, you may want to take a look at the latest INTEL vulnerability discussed here as it may apply to your computer.

        • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  PKCano.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #113452 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        This IS odd.

        My first guess was that you had a newer video card – but it looks like Intel HD 4000, which shouldn’t be blocked.

        Any idea what happened?

        As @pkcano says, you should report this to Microsoft….

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

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