Thurrott: Frustrating changes to the Win10 version 1909 installation experience

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I vividly recall writing around the installation process for Win10 version 1809 in Win10 All-In-One For Dummies. Microsoft did everything it could to
[See the full post at: Thurrott: Frustrating changes to the Win10 version 1909 installation experience]

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rc primak, fracky, Ascaris, CADesertRat, AlexEiffel, Carl D

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[_Reassigned Account]

Myself I don’t recall a time I ever used a MS account for Windows 10. I typically only use one Windows PC so I don’t find much reason to use the MS account I do have. Operating systems like Chrome OS, IOS or Android pretty much require an account for the best experience. I do not see that benefit as much in Windows 10. I would not be surprised if Microsoft keeps pushing this harder and eventually eliminates a local option for Home users.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by _Reassigned Account.

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Carl D

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Windows 10 must be the only operating system I’m aware of where it is almost absolutely essential to be disconnected from the Internet when installing to get a reasonably “clean” install.

Not just because of the “cat-and-mouse” local accounts game, as Woody has mentioned, but, as I’ve said a few times in past posts, also to avoid getting Candy Crush, Bubble Witch, Disney’s Magic Kingdoms and whatever additional bloat is included with the latest Windows 10 release (assuming you don’t want them). And, make sure the Start Menu live tiles (particularly the blank ones with the little arrows) are turned off and removed before going online.

Being disconnected from the Internet during and after the Windows 10 install also allows you to stop driver updates being automatically downloaded from Windows Update and lets you install your own drivers (the latest ones from the device manufacturers’ websites, preferably). And, you should also adjust all of your privacy settings, etc. prior to going online.

As I mentioned in an earlier post a couple of weeks back – I was a bit concerned when I did a clean install recently with an updated 1903 ISO. I installed with the Internet disconnected as always. But, when I eventually went online I got a message in a blue box saying something like (might not be exact words): “Now that you’re connected, we can finish setting things up”. I thought “Uh-oh, don’t tell me I’m now going to get Candy Crush and the rest of the unwanted junk installed”.

But, it didn’t happen, thank goodness. Knowing MS, I wouldn’t be surprised if that changes in the not too distant future.

 

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doriel

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I recently did a clean install of Windows 1909 on my laptop. I actually quite like the update so far, but I had to go through this. It would not let me set up a local account after I connected it to my network. So I had to reformat the hard drive a second time and start from scratch. This time I made sure not to connect until I got to the desktop. It’s very annoying.

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which edition of Win10 v1909? 1909 Home or 1909 Pro

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It was Windows 10 Home.

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woody wrote:

Paul Thurrott has gone through the maze with a fresh installation of the latest version of Windows 10, version 1909, and come up with some surprising results. Microsoft still plays a cat-and-mouse game with local accounts

He said Home only, but you didn’t mention this.

Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.1483 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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As best I can tell, the cat-and-mouse game happens with Pro, too. (Although the deck is stacked with Home, making it even harder to set up a system with a local account.)

And I believe the you-reconnected-now-go-through-setup-again is in Pro, too.

Have you seen anything different?

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WildBill

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I haven’t done a clean installation for more than a year, but Paul Thurrott drew a clear distinction in his article which prompted your post:

Now, however, these two product editions handle this part of the OOBE differently.

Windows 10 Pro still lets you choose between a Microsoft account and a local account, and the “Sign in with Microsoft” screen hasn’t changed; if you would prefer to use a local account, you must click the subtle “Offline account” link in the bottom left.

There’s no reason to disconnect from a network when clean installing Pro.

Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.1483 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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Well, OK, but the Pro 1909 nudge to a Microsoft Account is no different from the Pro 1903 nudge. Which was a massive pain in the neck, unless you’re disconnected from the internet.

It’s very, very hard to explain to people – especially those with a new computer – the details on how to set up with a local account. It’s much easier to tell them to unplug from the internet before doing the setup.

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Tom-R, WildBill

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Clicking Offline account, Limited experience is really difficult?

Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.1483 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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Yes.

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Graham

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I agree that it can be difficult. I help some friends who aren’t tech savvy when they have Windows questions or problems. On paper, saying click ‘Offline Account, then Limited Experience’ makes it sound easy and we’ll be done in 30 seconds. Not so fast, as the friend asks, “What’s an offline account?” Thing is, sometimes the non-techie wants to learn, and doesn’t want to just click buttons as told. So the two clicks might turn into an hour of explaining. Or, perhaps, an infamous Windows message might appear: “Something happened”, and we get to start all over.

Anyway, sometimes it seems like the 5-minute things turn into entire morning things …

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Laptops have WiFi, so just “unplugging” the Internet doesn’t work unless you can shut off the WiFi before doing the full setup process on a NEW laptop, or be sure to skip it during the setup process.

I just got in a new laptop for a client, so will have to do the dance with NOT connecting to WiFi during the OOB setup up process.  Of course it won’t have an Ethernet cable connected during the setup process

Good old desktops with NO WiFi are a lot easier, just “unplug” (or never plug it in) before starting the setup process.

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rc primak

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Just don’t put in the password.
Your WiFi dows have a password, doesn’t it?

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One easy way to “unplug” the Wi-Fi on most laptops is to just enable Airplane Mode — typically via a function key on most laptop keyboards.  At least that’s how I usually do it.

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[rc primak]

One Comment at Thurrott’s blog says that all you need to do to get to Local Account setup (Home or Pro) is to “forget” your Microsoft Account details, and enter some gibberish instead. Setup tries to connect to the MS Account and fails. Then you get offered the Local Account setup. I haven’t tried this, so I don’t know if it really works.

Still, quite a bit of arcana for the average “Uncle Barney” type of user.

-- rc primak

• This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by rc primak.

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Cybertooth

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how Google snooping is so much worse than Microsoft snooping

Both are bad and should be avoided when possible. Currently Google is just better at doing the cross references from all their data milking than Microsoft.

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anonymous wrote:

Currently Google is just better at doing the cross references from all their data milking than Microsoft.

I’d be surprised, frankly, if that were true. MS is very good at connecting dots.

Google has its fingers in more pies than MS, especially with doubleclick and Google Ads, and the results of its snooping are more readily apparent, but I’m not at all sure there’s much of a difference between the two.

Apple claims to be better. I think I believe them.

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rc primak, WildBill

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Well you got the free, avoidable (not easily and with some missing Google specific features) and up front Google snooping.  It only costs you the price of the hardware it runs on.

You have the Microsoft Snooping that you pay money for so, you should expect it to be much more sophisticated and harder to avoid with a shroud of mystery on what it is snooping and what for.

You have the Apple snooping that you pay so much money for that you just don’t need to know what they are snooping, or that they are even snooping, who they are sharing the data with and how long do they keep it for.  It just works.

Then there is the Linux snooping which is instantly decried once it is found (e.g. Ubuntu and Amazon) and promptly removed or made opt-in.

There is also some snooping on top of snooping (e.g. Google with Samsung) but this is getting too long so we will stick to the main four.

I choose Google with a side of Linux.

Your choice.

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rc primak

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Ubuntu snooping has gone way beyond the Amazon flap. But it is avoidable if you know how. If you don’t know enough to get that far, maybe Linux is not for you.

-- rc primak

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[cptomes]

Win10 Pro behaves almost the same way iirc.

I never plug into a network until I have the most recently Patch Lady Approved patches on the bare Win10 install.  Still installing 1809 on customer pcs.  Don’t trust 1903 and for sure don’t trust 1909.

“Microsoft Account” setup after a fresh install results in ZERO usable accounts if the machine is disconnected from the Internet and the customer hasn’t set up a pin code.

imo no one should be using a “Microsoft Account” to sign into their pc.

Hey look! Another Feature Update!

You mean I shouldn't click Check for Updates?

Where is the Any key?

• This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by cptomes.

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Carl D

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cptomes wrote:

“Microsoft Account” setup after a fresh install results in ZERO usable accounts if the machine is disconnected from the Internet and the customer hasn’t set up a pin code.

A PIN is an option, not a requirement.

If you’ve created a password for a user, why would that not be usable offline?

cptomes wrote:

imo no one should be using a “Microsoft Account” to sign into their pc.

Why?

A Microsoft account has quite a few advantages (and no disadvantages in my opinion).

Windows 11 Pro version 22H2 build 22621.1483 + Microsoft 365 + Edge

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The only difference I’ve seen between Home and Professional (up to 1903 anyway – I haven’t done a clean install with 1909 yet) is that Professional has “2 attempts” (before and after the second or third restart during the install) at getting you to connect to the Internet or “continue with limited setup”. Home doesn’t run the second attempt after the restart.

PC1: Gigabyte B560M D2V Motherboard, Intel i5 11400 CPU, 16GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 Graphics Card, 1x Samsung 870 EVO 250GB SSD, 1x Samsung 860 EVO 250GB SSD, Windows 11 Home 21H2 64bit.
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anonymous wrote:

how Google snooping is so much worse than Microsoft snooping

Both are bad and should be avoided when possible. Currently Google is just better at doing the cross references from all their data milking than Microsoft.

Its not.  Choosing between the lesser of two evils still leaves you with an evil.

I would make the argument that Microsoft isn’t really a software company anymore, and Google isn’t really a search engine anymore, they are information brokers for lack of a better term.  In other words, end users are now the product for them, not Windows of Office or search, etc.  “The Cloud” has just been a gigantic scam to get people to willingly turn over private information they would never have volunteered previously to be mined and pilfered by these conglomerates.

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David F, doriel, Steve S., trevvert91, Cybertooth, CADesertRat

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Whether Google is worse than Microsoft in terms of spying depends on how you define “worse.”

I consider Google slurping to be worse than Microsoft, as they are confirmed to slurp up all kinds of personal data.  There have been posts here about them vacuuming up people’s health data, and they’ve also been buying massive amounts of credit card metadata that they use to track people’s purchases even more completely than they had previously.  They read your email, track your movements across the web, and assemble profiles of the sites you visit, the things you browse on e-commerce sites, and just about everything they can learn about you.  Much of this data has no obvious commercial purpose as far as Google’s ad business goes, but they know they’ll figure out a use for all of it.

Microsoft is very insistent on keeping the telemetry enabled, but even with that in mind, they do seem only to be slurping up data that allows them to use consumers as unwilling beta testers.  Their stated purpose of collecting data to improve Windows seems to be accurate, though they don’t mention that they need to improve Windows that much more because they eliminated the QA testers.  It can’t be confirmed that the encrypted data they slurp as part of their telemetry does not contain potentially personally identifiable data, but that’s by-catch, not the actual target of the fishing efforts.  Google’s going after the personal stuff intentionally.

The slurp is worse with Google, but data slurping is not Microsoft’s only sin.  From the start of the Nadella era, Microsoft has used dark patterns and trickery to thwart the desires of the customer in order to promote its corporate goals, most famously exemplified by the “upgrade now” and “upgrade later” buttons with no “cancel” button during the GWX days, and then the change of the X from being the de facto cancel to “accept” after people learned of it.

Hiding the option to create a local account is just one more example of Microsoft metaphorically hiding the ball, which is a particularly dishonest kind of bad sportsmanship that is not itself slurping, but it is unethical and anti-consumer.

Both Google and Microsoft are bad guys, just in different ways, and while I too consider Apple to be the least data-slurpy option, it’s not the good guy either.  Deliberately unrepairable devices (a dubious distinction that Apple shares with the MS Surface line), efforts to thwart right-to-repair, doing all they can to make sure replacement parts for Apple devices are unavailable (which goes beyond simply refusing to provide them, unlike Dell, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, HP…), deliberately bricking devices after the fact when aftermarket parts (that are working perfectly well) are installed, refusing to make good on their engineering mistakes until the public outcry forces them, bendgate, DRM in charging cables, “you’re holding it wrong,” hardware designs that make a simple keyboard replacement require a ton of labor and replacing a bunch of other parts that are still working in order to run up the cost of repair (instead of replacement), bad quality “official” repairs on refurbished devices that are exchanged for new but broken devices under warranty, and so on.

I don’t like any of them.

 

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon
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PrivacyPhreak, David F, Cybertooth, Steve S., Carl D

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[abbodi86]

This has been the case since 1809, nothing technically changed

by the way, here’s a workaround to get offline account on Home edition without really unplugging the internet
courtesy of @whatever127 at MDL

1. open cmd.exe in OOBE using SHIFT+F10
2. run control netconnections
3. disable active internet connection
4. click back in oobe to refresh page
5. press ALT+Tab to get back to control panel
6. enable connection you disabled
7. close all windows you have opened
8. continue configuration

Video:
https://x0.at/v3i.mp4

• This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by abbodi86.

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b, woody

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Again, not exactly what a non-techie like “Uncle Barney” would know how to do. If the fake info for the MS Account trick works, that seems the easiest way to get back to setting up a local account.

-- rc primak

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abbodi86 wrote:

by the way, here’s a workaround to get offline account on Home edition without really unplugging the internet

On most laptops, it’s a lot easier (especially for those who don’t know much) to just use the keyboard hot-key sequence to disable the WiFi adapter.

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b

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Microsoft and Apple and other tech companies are no longer making products that I want. They are making decisions that make some sense from the corporate point of view but make absolutely no sense from the consumer end. I love Windows 7 and the Macbook pro pre 2013. I also love the Samsung Galaxy S5 phone. They have all the features I want and nothing that I don’t want. It seems that I’m in the minority though. Now whatever these companies put out they remove great features that the prior generation used to have and then we are told it is an improvement and on top of that they add telemetry and other “features” that I’m not interested in. You want control over your stuff, you want to be able to repair anything, you want to use something they deem obsolete well the answer is no.

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wavy

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“Tell me again how Google snooping is so much worse than Microsoft snooping….”

Okay, Chromebooks force you to use a gmail account.  At least it’s somewhat optional in Windows.

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rc primak, b

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Stories exactly like this one go straight into my bag labeled “reasons why I will not deal with Windows anymore”, to be pulled out and presented whenever someone asks me to “look at their computer”. Thank you for another one.

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There is way too much ‘social engineering’ being used in software and websites these days, imho. This trend has been building for years now in UI design. Interface choices that are in the interest of the user’s privacy or control are more and more often either displayed in tiny fonts, greyed out, nearly the same color of the background, hidden in ‘custom’ or ‘advanced’ installation links or not even available anymore – and people may not even notice as they try to live their busy lives. Like a confidence man using deflection, distraction and misdirection to take advantage of his mark?

I find it all ethically questionable, possibly dishonest in intent and certainly an attempt to reduce user’s conscious agency… all seemingly to entrap people for the advantage of the companies involved. Distasteful.

(Not to even mention all the ‘planned obsolescence’ in physical products!)

Though Microsoft may not be the worst offender in this regard, their increasing use of these tactics and the apparent plan to continue tightening the controls into the hands of MS, doesn’t bode well for user choice, agency or privacy. Too many people seem willing to cede these values in the pursuit of convenience.

Reminds me of the apocryphal story of the frog in a pan of water….

Win10 Pro x64 22H2, Win10 Home 21H2, Linux Mint + a cat with 'tortitude'.

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Cybertooth

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OK, my first Win10 PC is supposed to arrive tomorrow, right after MS has started pushing out 1909.

It is a fresh build with Win10 Pro installed last week and ‘Defer Updates’ checked. I assume it will be 1903 with updates through October or November.

I want to set up this PC with a local account. Based on this thread I plan to play it safe and keep it disconnected from the internet until I have finished initial set up . . . unless someone has a better recommendation . . .

 

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That’s a great idea as you can then confirm if you get the “double install” when you finally connect to the internet.

cheers, Paul

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[doriel]

Hello, I tested on W10 1909 PRO on VMWare (sorry for czech version:) ). Instalation without ethernet adapter. I had to click “No internet connection”

Then I turned it off and added ethernet. I booted normally without any second setup. It just nags in control panel that W10 works better with microsoft account. It surely stalks me more with MS account, no doubt about it 😉

I think its still possible to go on with local account.

Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

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• This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by doriel.

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Cybertooth

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[Alex5723]

opti1 wrote:

I want to set up this PC with a local account

New PCs with Pre-installed Windows 10 usually come with local account (user) and no password, unless the seller asked you for you Microsoft account.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by Alex5723.

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I have had devices with Windows 10 which came only partially set up. To complete the setup process I had to go through the process Thurrott describes. This would result in a Home user having to set up a MS Account or else know the tricks to avoid doing so.  This differs from one vendor to another, and depends on where you buy your device.

-- rc primak

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I just bought a new computer with Win 10 Pro installed.  Have not plugged it in yet because I am not a techie and there seems to be so much about Win 10 that I do not understand.  I want to set up a local account (and not a MS account) and thought I had this figured out until I read all these posts.  Now I am concerned about all this talk about a double install.  If I disconnect from the internet, crank up the PC, set up a local account, etc. and then connect to the internet and get a message to install again (double install), what do I do?   Or does this double install only apply to those who installed the OS themselves and not to those (like me) who bought a new computer with Win 10 already installed?

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This may not affect many of you, but from my (admittedly limited) testing, the local account behavior on 1909 Enterprise is still the same as it has been  – was able to set up a local account on a new VM where I had the network adapter disconnected, and when I loaded VMWare Tools to bring it online, I wasn’t prompted to go through setup again or prompted to use a Microsoft account.

 

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b

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Since we’re talking about local accounts and Microsoft accounts I ran into an interesting situation.

Using a local account, on the Windows store I have been able to download and log into the Netflix app. Since my account is with Netflix there is no need for me to log into Windows with a Microsoft account.

Last week when I activated my Disney + account via the web, I went to the Microsoft Store found the Disney + app and ran into a problem. I was able to “add” the app to my “account” but I was unable to download it…unless I signed in with my Microsoft account. Very peculiar that I needed a Microsoft account to sign into the Disney + app, or even to download it for that matter.

Ultimately I didn’t install it, that’s what my Roku is for.

 

Rock

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Interesting. Günter Born points to this article by Martin Geuß (in German) that says the German language version of 1909 offers a local account during setup without the stupid cat-and-mouse games.

Says Born:

For me, it remains unclear at this point what’s Microsoft’s strategy? For Microsoft Germany, such a move is only water on the mills of the ‘Windows 10 is not DSGVO-compliant and Microsoft cannot be trusted, they want to force us into the cloud’ discussion.

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Is he using Home or Home N edition?
because the latter don’t have that restriction

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woody

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Good question. Wonder if @gborn knows?

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[opti1]

opti1 wrote:

OK, my first Win10 PC is supposed to arrive tomorrow, right after MS has started pushing out 1909.

It is a fresh build with Win10 Pro installed last week and ‘Defer Updates’ checked. I assume it will be 1903 with updates through October or November.

I want to set up this PC with a local account. Based on this thread I plan to play it safe and keep it disconnected from the internet until I have finished initial set up . . . unless someone has a better recommendation . . .

So the new PC arrived with Win10 Pro 1909 installed. In my OP above I outlined my plan for OOBE initial setup which will be for a local account and not a Microsoft account.

I would just like to confirm that the OOBE initial setup will default the first account to an Administrator local account and that once that is set up I can then create a Standard local account which I will use for my everyday account. Is this correct?

Among the first things I plan to do after I complete initial setup is to install (using my local Standard account) my anti-virus software and Macrium Reflect so that I can take images as I work my through the rest of setup. Thoughts or comments?

Thanks!

• This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by opti1.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 4 months ago by opti1.

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The first account created on a new PC is in the Administrator group. If you stay off the Internet, it cannot create a Microsoft account, it will have to be a local account. Before you connect to the Internet, you should go through the settings with the Administrator account and be sure they are set where you want them. Pay particular attention to the Windows Update and App access settings. System Protection Restore Points will also be turned of by default.
Then create the Standard local account and go through it’s settings also.

You may not be able to install software or change some settings with the Standard account. The Windows Update settings may not hold for a Standard account. You should perform the setup/install functions (administrative functions) with the Administrator account, then use the Standard account for everyday use. If you download the Macrium Reflect installer ahead of time, you can install it and make an image before you go on the Internet for the first time. That way, if something gets messed up, you will have a base to go back to.

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Thanks PKCano!

Since this will be my first exposure to Win10 it is going to take me a while to go through the settings to make sure they are set where I want them (although ‘where I want them’ isn’t really accurate because I will be referring to your, Woody’s, and other sources’ recommendations for the settings). It may be a while before I am ready to go online.

Is it safe to assume I will be able to logoff, shutdown, sign back on while I am working my way through the settings before I go online?

My plan for Macrium Reflect is exactly what you described.

Is it safe to assume that I should be able to install MR (and basically software in general) from the Standard account and Win10 will prompt me for the Administrator password, like Win7 does?

Will this limit running MR to the Standard account (after prompt for Administrator password) or will the Administrator account also be able to run MR?

Thanks!

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opti1 wrote:

Is it safe to assume I will be able to logoff, shutdown, sign back on while I am working my way through the settings before I go online?

Yes, it should work like Win7 when you are offline.

I think you should perform administrative tasks (application installs, Windows Updates, Settings changes, backups) with the Adimn account choosing the “for all users” function during an install (JMHO), and perform everyday tasks with the Standard account. If you use the Standard account for all things you may have limited access.

Here is some information about setting up Windows Update and why I use the settings I do.

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Thanks again PKCano.

In this case I would be offline while I do my initial setup. Once the initial setup is complete I will be connecting to the internet and I will be using a Standard account which will become my default log on account.

Do you recommend that whenever I need to return to performing administrative tasks and I am online using a Standard account that I should log out of the Standard account, go offline, and log back on using the Admin account instead of staying online using the Standard account and providing the Admin password when prompted?

Thanks!

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Once it’s setup you don’t need to disconnect from the internet.

cheers, Paul

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