Too many computers in cars?

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I’m a car enthusiast and I’ve seen a few posts here and there about preferences of older cars over the newer ones.  I am a person whose newest car is a 2012 Scion TC and oldest car is a 1969 Mustang that I bought new.  I thought I’d start this topic to provide a place where the problems with computers, touch screens on dashboards, 9+ forward speed transmissions, stick shift preferences, etc. could be talked about.  I think I picked a good place for this.

I personally am very apprehensive about buying a new car for the reasons given above, and especially the very distracting touch screen on the dash that controls so much.  I rented a car last year and found the touch screen so distracting and maddening to use that I turned it off.  Now they can’t even make new cars because they’re so reliant on computers and computer chips.  So feel free to voice your experiences and opinions.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Charlie wrote:

I rented a car last year and found the touch screen so distracting and maddening to use that I turned it off.

I can’t drive a car that doesn’t have a multimedia system with touch screen and Apple Car Play.

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If that works for you then good.  I prefer a radio with pushbuttons, bass, treble, and volume control knobs.  You have to go back a few years to get those.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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I can’t drive a car that doesn’t have a multimedia system with touch screen and Apple Car Play.

No one can drive one with, IMHO

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Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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Charlie, cyberSAR

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Charlie, I have and drive a 32 year-old compact car, and it runs just fine. I also drive less than  maybe 1,000 miles a year, these days, living in a place where everywhere I usually need to go, for provisions, regular medical checkups, dentist’s visits and work is less than 10 miles, and most of it is less than 5 from my place. So: no touch screen and only a couple of computer chips on board, mainly for controlling the ignition mix in the carburetor.

I have also driven, now and then, while my car is at the garage of my mechanic for its annual maintenance, new rental cars with those touch screens. I have ignored them while driving these cars, and used them only, mostly with the car stationary, to turn the a/c or the heating on and off, and the radio off, as they are delivered invariably with some annoying (to me) radio station chosen by default.

But I must agree that the arms-race between car makers, to make the interior of their cars more like the driver’s living room, has gone way too far.

For all the added security measures made possible or simpler to implement using embedded computers, the distractions provided by the on-board infotainment systems, that do increase careless driving, as well as not watching where one is going while changing entertainment sources or turning on the heating or air conditioning, or selecting the cabin’s temperature, bring along a consequent reduction in security. So the result of the whole thing might end up being a wash, or worse, depending on the driver and the circumstances.

It also means that the hopes are very small for someone good with his or her hands and knowledgeable enough, to be able to put in use both facts with a good and even life-saving result.
For example, when the car breaks down in the middle of a desert (as it happened to me once, in the Californian Desert, fortunately near the one and only service station in many tens of miles, so I could limp-drive the car there and get several cans of the transmission fluid that had started leaking like mad, enough to get to the first town along that road, some twenty miles away, by stopping now and then to refill the transmission of my one and never again Ford Pinto).

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Charlie

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Oscar, the car I rented had the owner’s manual in the glove box and I read the part on the infotainment screen over at least three times. I had never driven a car with one before and even after going over the instructions I still couldn’t even get the radio to a station I wanted.  Fortunately for me the heat and AC were not controlled from that screen. I was spending so much time with the darn thing that I just turned it off – I didn’t really need it.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Every control on a car should be operable without looking at it. I can glance quickly at the display on my car radio to see what it says, but I don’t have to keep my gaze fixed while I adjust the controls. I can do it all by feel, because each button or knob is actually a piece of hardware. Same with every other control on the car.

I don’t want or need a touchscreen in a car. There is no purpose it serves that would not be better served by more traditional means (with tactile controls). For navigation purposes, there’s no need to have a built-in taking up space when I use it once every few years at most, especially given that I am then captive to whatever software the carmaker has supplied… for which they are itching to get a monthly subscription fee forever. It’s nothing more than a gimmick looking for a reason to exist, because touchscreens are all futuristic and all that kind of thing.

I don’t think I will be buying any new cars. I don’t want anything with software that can be updated to serve the interests of someone other than myself, or that can spy on me in any way (whether by recording or transmitting GPS coordinates or logging any other data that my current car cannot). I’ve got enough of those kinds of troubles without my car doing it too!

 

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I couldn’t have said it better myself.  Knowing exactly where all the controls are and being able to get to them quickly is fundamental to safe driving IMO.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Ascaris wrote: “For navigation purposes, there’s no need to have a built-in taking up space when I use it once every few years at most, especially given that I am then captive to whatever software the carmaker has supplied… for which they are itching to get a monthly subscription fee forever.”

For navigation purposes, on long trips in the USA, often far away from home, in places and along roads I had never been in, I have always relied on the road (paper) maps of the American Automobile Association (AAA) to get myself there, and also on the AAA booklets with information on hotels and other accommodations available along the way, as well as notes on local points of interest, with scenic routes marked on the maps.

These days many use GPS (taxi drivers, for example), with a small screen on top the dashboard showing the road ahead on a map that moves along with the vehicle, that also might give verbal instructions such as “at the next intersection with traffic lights go left.” There is also a service where drivers that subscribe to it can leave messages on road conditions and road hazards they spot as they drive past, and other users traveling the same road can get this on a radio used for this purpose.

Those things are convenient, although I have managed quite well for years, on very long road trips, using neither.

 

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Charlie, WCHS

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I own a ‘90’s Jeep Wrangler (square headlights). I shift manually, steering is physically a workout, top comes off giving me clear vision and fresh air, my only complaint is my Frank Sinatra tape is stuck in the cassette player. He went from crooning to maxing out on helium. The radio works and plays my favorite rock and classical. Brakes are good and it’s my foot that operates them not software. When I open the hood I can actually see the spark plugs and the ground below. Happy trails.

MacOS, iOS, iPadOS, and SOS at times.

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I want a twin floppy computer with CRT display – progress is always good, nostalgia not so.

cheers, Paul

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Progress by definition is good, or at the very least strongly implies good. Perhaps a better term to use in this discussion is ‘advance’. I don’t think one can effectively argue that every advance in computer and/or automotive technology is good.

In my 2021 model year car, if I swerve quickly on a highway to avoid an object, the car will do one or both of the following: 1) display a message in the center of the instrument cluster telling me to consider taking a break, 2) try to take control of the steering wheel and direct the car back to the center of the lane. Option 1) is fairly innocuous although it does suddenly appear on the instrument cluster and I see it with my peripheral vision, and I also hear a chime when the message appears; both the sight and sound divert some amount of my attention from the issue immediately at hand, probably not enough to cause another problem, but that probability is not 100%. Option 2) is potentially more problematic in that it could direct the car back towards the very object I’m trying to avoid. Now, my own opinion of this is that it’s not a bad first(?) effort on the part of the manufacturer, but it needs some refinement.

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My 2012 Scion TC is a sporty car with super quick steering and great handling.  Once in a while I’ll see a pothole in just enough time to swerve around it (if no traffic is coming the other way).  Almost every time I do that I get locked into my seat by the seatbelts.  I try to sit up but it does no good to try until the onboard computer decides that something awful did not happen – usually in about 15 seconds.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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DrBonzo

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Charlie wrote:

I try to sit up but it does no good to try until the onboard computer decides that something awful did not happen – usually in about 15 seconds.

I actually had an accident caused by a misbehaving seat-belt (and my attention to a couple of the opposite se x at an intersection). It was a company car and a known problem , the seat belt would not release tension, but they had not had the time to send it to be fixed. Fortunately only metal and my self esteem damaged.

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My first car with a manual transmission was my 1986 Saab 900 that I drove until 2020. I hated the thought a getting a new car after driving him for 34 years, but the rust was winning out. I gave it to my mechanic to use as a donor car, so hopefully it lives on in keeping other Saab 900s on the road.

I wanted my next car to have a stick, so I bought a low-mileage used 2018 Honda HR-V, the last year it was manufactured with a manual transmission. I purposely bought the base model so I had a radio with push buttons, FWD, and no navi screen. Sometimes I prefer the roll-up window cranks of my previous cars, especially since I actually have to look to make sure I’m pressing the correct button to ‘roll’ my window up or down. And don’t get me started on the so-called ’emergency brake’ in these cars!

Thankfully this 2018 HR-V did not come with most of the 3-letter “advances” (thanks, DrBonzo!); however, it did come with a 503-page Owner’s Guide! For perspective, my Saab’s Guide was 87 pages. Maybe my HR-V will give my Saab a run for its money, longevity-wise.

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Duck tape works better on mechanical cars.

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Myst

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Ascaris wrote:

For navigation purposes, there’s no need to have a built-in taking up space when I use it once every few years at most

I never drive even an inch without using Waze navigation map on the media screen in the car.

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Just reading that gives me the creeps.

I would have to make sure that kind of thing was completely disabled on two levels.

I insist on the car having no connectivity to the outside world whatsoever. I don’t want the car communicating with anything or anyone. It is a vehicle… I don’t need it to be a computer as well. I have my own computing devices for when I want to indulge in digital communications. They run the programs I specify, and engage in the kinds of communication I allow. I doubt I would ever have this level of control over the car’s onboard “infotainment” systems. I would not tolerate that level of lack of control over what is being communicated in my PC or phone, and I would not in any other device either.

If I were to make a list of entities I didn’t want that car communicating with, Google would be at the very top of the list. Even if I were to tolerate some kind of connectivity, Google would still be verboten.

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Charlie

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OscarCP wrote:

But I must agree that the arms-race between car makers, to make the interior of their cars more like the driver’s living room, has gone way too far.

But rejoice, soon we will have self-driving cars and can put all our focus on the very important music and climate controls. Also no need to avoid intoxicating substances. That last would be a good thing especially for insurance companies for a few years

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Let’s wait and see how that works out before doing any rejoicing.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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OscarCP wrote:

These days many use GPS (taxi drivers, for example), with a small screen on top the dashboard showing the road ahead on a map that moves along with the vehicle, that also might give verbal instructions such as “at the next intersection with traffic lights go left.”

So do some truckers rather than going for the commercial versions, and getting stuck under under passes. Or on a dirt road with no turn arounds… It is amazing the old bridges around here can stand up to that.🧱 🚚

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I would not buy a car that did not have controllable mirrors preferably with a memory or auto matic windows. Some advances ARE improvements. And being able to listen to the music on an USB stick is nice. But I want to be in control of my car, not relying on fry by wire.

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Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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DrBonzo

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I agree, some things are real improvements, like fuel injection, rack & pinion steering, pushbutton controlled outside mirrors, power windows, and radio/CD/USB controls on the steering wheel.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Charlie: About those improvements you have mentioned: I can do well enough with a mirror that I adjust by hand. The doors of my 32 year-old car can be locked and unlocked from the inside by pressing a button. To open from the outside, I use a Yale-type flat key.

To me the greatest improvement of all times in rear-view mirror technology has been the capability of flicking it at night to obscure the reflections on it, so the j**k tailgating me with his powerful high beams determinedly on does not blind me and let me drive, if not as safely as possible, at least in some comfort, in spite of him.

As to tailgating: my approach is to slow the car down as far as safety allows, and keep touching the brakes at regular intervals, to turn on my braking lights in the tailgater’s face. This tends to discourage tailgaters. It also works during the day.

A similar nuisance that is harder to avoid — but there are ways, just not that simple — is when someone comes along in the next lane, gets more or less level with my car and then settles there with the intention to never move from there for all of the journey ahead: right next to me, potentially blocking each other from doing the necessary maneuvers to avoid some sudden hazardous situation.

I doubt that having a bunch of computers on board will be of any help when performing these j**k-deterrence maneuvers.

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Charlie, DrBonzo

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Those super high brightness “headlights” are IMHO a danger to other people on the road. This is made even worse when those headlights are placed up higher than normal on vehicles like the new giant and/or raised up pickup trucks, etc.

I’m thankful that I can flip my inside rear view mirror, but I often get the annoying blast of light from the outside mirrors too.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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I can and do listen to my music on a USB nano drive in my 32 year old daily driver. There are plenty of standard half-DIN car stereos that have a USB slot (or a microSD slot, which would be just as good) for playing music. No need to have anything baked into the car itself for that!

If I wanted Bluetooth connectivity with a phone, I could have that too, while still being free of the “captive audience” aspect of using a built-in OE device. There are all kinds of things available out there that don’t have to be built in. And most importantly, if any of these things ceased working to my satisfaction, I could rip them out and replace them with some other thing that works better for me.

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Charlie, Myst

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Granted there have been many improvements over the years but nowadays if your battery gets low you are SOL. I remember having a bad battery on an older vehicle and either jumping it off or push starting it (if a stick) and drive as far as I wanted. Not now! Call a wrecker! Heck I used to drive an old VW bug with bad hydraulics and used the hand emergency brake for stopping. Did that for a month until I got around to rebuilding the wheel cylinders.

@Charlie that 1969 Mustang was a very nice car, but I preferred my ’68 Cutlass 🙂 Ha, let the flame war begin! 🙂

Never Say Never

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VW Bugs were like a toy car and could whip around through canyon roads. Had a ‘59 my Dad bought me in the late ‘60s. Ran out of gas a lot. No gauge just a stick to measure fuel level, the reserve lever didn’t work. Always in a hurry to get around and forgot to check. Hitchhiking in those days was like a social thing and somewhat safe, kept an empty gas can in the bug on a regular basis. Had a sunroof too. Packed in about 6 friends with heads popping out of the roof on many trips through town.

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Bugs were fun. Definitely a toy car! Friend of mine rolled his over a few times and we’d jump out, make sure everyone was OK, flip it back over and continue on with our shenanigans! Good days! I would have killed my kids if they did that!

Plus you could pull the engine and rebuild it on your kitchen table! Don’t ask me how I know that 🙂

Never Say Never

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Myst

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@cyberSAR I had a ‘72 super beetle after the ‘59 died. One of the points broke off in the middle of nowhere. Freeway sidelines and a shady character stopped to help. All I remember is being stranded with no CHP in sight. Lucky he took me on a legit 40 minute drive to my bug repair shop. He never said a word, I talked so much (habit by genetic influence) he probably couldn’t get me to the shop fast enough. Bugs have their stories like no other.

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cyberSAR

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My wife had a 72 if I remember correctly. Driving down the road the left axle separated and flew away into a ditch with the wheel. She came to a stop after some time and wore off 1/2 the battery which was under the back left seat, along with a good part of the undercarriage. I think that one had some type of “semi-automatic” transmission.

Oh, the memories!

Never Say Never

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Myst

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This was my second one – stick shift, jack up the back, drop the engine onto broomsticks, roll it out the back. Never heard of a computer anywhere.
My first VW camper was a 1962, bug-eyed, “V” front, 1200cc with cylinders that could be individually replaced. No computers there either.

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@PKCano – Sweet!

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That was a love bug! 🙂

Never Say Never

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Can I bring a 1969 AMX 390 stick?

Edit – This was meant to go under CyberSAR’s 2443002 post

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@DrBonzo – Bring it on
Found this on YouTube ‘69 AMX 390

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That is one beautiful car in that video, and the owner managed to keep it looking like new all those years.  I give him a lot of credit.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Certainly bring on that AMX! I bought a Rambler when I was in high school to build out as a sleeper. Can’t believe the car lot sold it to me at about 16 y/o. Neither could my Father! 🙂 Ha! Different time back then… and much more fun!

Never Say Never

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DrBonzo

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I’ve always been partial to the underdog car makers, and back in the ’60s it was hard to find a bigger underdog than American Motors – or as they were more commonly known, Rambler. My brother had a Rambler American – I don’t remember the year but probably a 1968 model – the American being the cheapest model Rambler sold. Most Americans were pretty basic transportation even by the standards of the ’60s. What most people didn’t know was that you could get a performance package that consisted of stiffer rear springs, “heavy-duty” shocks, 4speed manual trans, and a 290 cu in V8; might have been an antiroll bar thrown in, also. Absolutely the best part of the performance package was that you could get it with absolutely no exterior options, meaning it looked just like Granny’s American. This was a true sleeper car.

A 290 cu in engine wasn’t particularly big for the day, but this was a very light car, maybe 2000 pounds, and did it ever scoot! Of course, nothing on it was computerized, and it was amazing how much you could do to the car with a screwdriver, pliers, and an adjustable wrench (yes, I know, not the tool of choice, but very versatile, especially out on the road for those inevitible performance adjustments.

As cyberSAR noted: Different time back then… and much more fun!

Nostalgia perhaps, but it does seem that computers have sucked a lot of fun out of life.

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The AMX 390 was American Motors answer to the muscle car trend that had just gotten started.  A really great looking car with a 390 cubic inch V8, 4 speed stick, and I think it only had the two front seats, making it a true sports car (like the Corvette, and correct me if I got any of that wrong).

They had a write up with great pictures and specs. a few months back in the Hagerty Drivers Club magazine.  I enjoyed seeing one in mint condition and reading all about it.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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I always carry a jump pack these days. For my self but also because I do not like to use my car as I remember hearing that cars could be damaged by this (maybe the days of MOSFET silicon). That way if someone asks for a jump I have no qualms. Since I do not drive much and my 2012 car drains the battery with all its whatever electronics I have connected a solar panel to charge my battery.

I am much too lazy and transmissions have so improved that automatic shifting uses less gas that most with a stick.

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Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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Here in the USA there is an organization called the American Automobile Association (AAA), the like of which exist in other countries, usually known as the “Automobile Club of Such and Such Country”, that one can call and they’ll send someone in a repair truck that can do a simple jump start, or even replace the battery on the spot. They can also help change tires if an elderly person or one in not the best of health needs that done, even if the car is on a road out there.

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Problem with jumping a car nowadays is if the battery is going bad or has a bad connection that isn’t corrected, the computers sense that and the car won’t run reliably, or at all. In the old days, without computers, you could jump a car and go on your way, headlights and all (with a functioning alternator). Not now. Your battery better be up to the task or kiss your ride home goodby.

Never Say Never

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And do you not dislike waiting?? I will keep my jumper. Now a flat maybe since the wrench given by the manufacturer is close to useless given the over tightening by dealers.

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Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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Oh I’d definitely go for the jump. Problem is I have had experience where the bad cell in the battery caused the computer to sense low voltage and the danged computer shut it down. Had to replace the battery before it was drivable again.

Regarding flats, I didn’t realize until last couple years many vehicles no longer have spares, or a place to properly store them. They give you a portable air compressor and a can of fix-a-flat type stuff

Never Say Never

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cyberSar: Changing tires while on the road is also a big deal for old people. Old people: if you still drive, then better keep your AAA/Automobile subscription and card up to date and a cellphone at hand to call for help.

Squirting into the inner tube puncture sealant works, as I have demonstrated to myself several times, as long as one also has a way to put some gas in the tube to inflate it enough to make it to a service station without the tube coming to pieces first; and, once there, depending on the situation, either get a new tire installed, or else inflate the tire to its proper pressure using the station’s compressed air hose.

Not having a spare tire as part of what comes with a new car is just plain sadistic.

But at least one has a lot of computers embedded in the new car inner works, right?

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
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Ha! Who would have thought Ask Woody would go into the auto world! Brought back so many happy memories today! I learned to drive in an old International pickup truck. Who even remembers those??? Almost took two feet to push in that clutch on that booger! And a ’68 Mustang convertible, and an old Caddy… that was a floating tank! Fun times! Thank you for the memories!

Never Say Never

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My uncle had an old Cadillac and yeah, it definitely was a floating tank! I burned out the clutch on my brother’s ‘66 Malibu when I was 15. Umm. Underage and reckless. Small town boredom blues made for trouble. Yep this has been fun, thanks @Charlie and all

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I do, and also the IH Scout. Very cool. And believe it or not, I have some recollection that in the ’60s either the Scout or the Pickup truck came with an American Motors 232 cu in. inline 6 cyl. engine.

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cyberSAR

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I almost bought a ’68 Mustang, but I wasn’t 21 years old yet and would have had to have my father co-sign for me to purchase it.  Also he didn’t like the fact that the one I had my eye on was a ’68 GT with a 302 V8 and those great looking GT wheels.  So I drove my six cylinder ’66 Mustang for another year until I turned 21 and could buy the ’69 myself.  Back then you were not considered an adult until you were 21.  Smart, but I didn’t think so then of course.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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That Mustang was nice. I’m just so hooked on my ’68 Cutlass. My one true love – after my family of course! Bought it off my old HS Algebra teacher. 40,000 miles. Mint condition. Loved that car and it ran and won many street races.

Had it when my first son was born. Wife called me at work to take her to hospital. Hauled butt to get her. Her water had broken, so I did what any true car enthusiast would do – had her stand outside the car, in the cold, in the middle of the night, while I went and gathered newspapers, and towels so she wouldn’t mess up my seat! She still gives me heck about that but she misses that car too 🙂

Traded it in to purchase my first work truck. Regretted it immediately and went back 3 days later to buy it back. Ha! The body shop supervisor bought it and wouldn’t sell for anything!

Never Say Never

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Was it a 442?  Sounds like it had a powerful engine, but then most Oldsmobiles did back then.  My boss had a ’67 Olds 88 or 89 and also a heavy foot.  I’ll never forget getting pulled back into the seat when he took off from a red light.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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DrBonzo

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No It was a Cutlass S with the 350. I never took a liking to the 400. Friend had a 442 convertible and it wasn’t as quick as mine. Only thing I liked about the 442 was the interior but that was easily rectified with buckets and a Hurst shifter. When I bought it it had the vinyl top which looked like new but I had to strip that 🙂

Never Say Never

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Charlie, DrBonzo

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I could go on and on. The Monte Carlo that shot off the front wheel while making a turn due to tie rod going belly up! Or the time my grandmother doused my battery with baking soda on a Mercury Cougar because it was “smoking” Been through some crazy moments but all fun and no computers involved! Lots of fun!

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DrBonzo, Myst

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Funny about your Grandma! I’m sure you weren’t laughing at the time though. My Mom rolled our ‘51 Willy’s in a remote area and never told anyone. Not a scratch on her (my Mom or the Jeep). The Willy’s was tough, my Dad’s horse, he was from Jersey. Never saw a horse until he met my Mom, opted for 4 wheels instead of 4 legs. Have a great weekend!

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I currently own a 2014 Mazda3. At the time I was very specific about wanting an uncomplicated engine – no hybrids or turbos that ultimately result in more expensive repairs, as I planned to keep it for a long time. I put no thought into the electronics.

I appreciate the infotainment system’s ability to work with my phone to play something from my music collection, but that’s pretty much where it ends. The unit technically does not shut off – no power button. It automatically goes to sleep when the engine is stopped. Well, one software update performed by the dealership contained a bug that broke that feature. This led to a dead battery after parking the car at home on a Saturday and not needing it again until Monday morning. The unit had appeared to sleep as normal (black screen / no sound) but it actually stayed on. It was towed to the dealership for another software update (the bug had been discovered quickly).

But it turns out those early units had hardware issues, too. A combination of that and a different software bug led to the unit bricking itself a couple of years later. Replacement cost would have been something like $1000 – no thanks. Instead I researched and worked out that the touchscreen was not difficult to remove, and probably fine. Then I found a junkyard online selling used units pulled from wrecked cars, and got one for $100 that had a dead touchscreen. I did the swap myself.

It still works, mostly. Every so often in extreme temperatures it will execute random button presses with no input. I’m not sure if that is the touchscreen or the center console controls, but research tells me that is just another common issue with those units. I mitigate that by putting it on the navigation screen, where much of the controls are disabled while the car is in motion.

Mechanically, though, the car is excellent.

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The Mazda 3 has been one of the best rated cars by Consumer Reports magazine over the years that it’s been on the market.  Too bad it about the infotainment center which Consumer Reports magazine reports is the part of the car people dislike the most in rating a car.  The Mazda Miata has been the top rated sports car for at least 10 years or more, mainly for it’s reliability.  Both the Miata and the 3 are great looking cars too.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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DrBonzo

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Yeah, setting aside the trash reliability of the infotainment, the 3 has been great ever since Mazda started working with Toyota. I should have gone for a base model with a basic stereo.

Also, I love the current Miata RF. Almost enough to search for an excuse to get one. Almost. 😉

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Charlie, OscarCP

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This is exactly why I don’t want any of that stuff. If my PC gets an update that goes poorly, I can restore it to function by restoring my backup, which I always have on hand. If some kind of glitch were to happen with a media player or GPS navigation or something like that on a personal device, I could always switch to another one until my preferred one was fixed, if for some reason I don’t want to roll it back to the previous version that worked.

I don’t think I could do that with an onboard system. Software updates that I can’t control are a no-go in general, but ones I can’t personally revert in a matter of minutes are even worse.

No infotainment system, no onboard GPS or transmitters of any kind, no firmware that needs to be or can be updated, and an old fashioned ignition switch that cuts off power. No “please turn off the engine, computer.” I take the power away, it’s off, no ifs, ands, or buts. No power to the fuel pump, no power to the ignition, no power to the ECU… it’s off. I’m not relying on the proper function of any computer for my safety… I can steer the car with the power steering and brake without the power brake booster, and I can disconnect the engine from the wheels, and stop the engine without any doubt about whether it will happen.

 

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Charlie, Myst, SueW

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ok i will bite why was it smoking and why was a baking soda shower a bad thing?

cyberSAR wrote:

Or the time my grandmother doused my battery with baking soda on a Mercury Cougar because it was “smoking”

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A car battery has sulphuric acid and baking soda is an alkali so you wouldn’t want to “pour” it on. To clean up the battery terminals by gently using a toothbrush with a little bit of baking soda mixed with water is fine. But his Grandma “doused” it with the baking soda because it was “smoking”.

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SueW

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Myst wrote:

A car battery has sulphuric acid and baking soda is an alkali so you wouldn’t want to “pour” it on. To clean up the battery terminals by gently using a toothbrush with a little bit of baking soda mixed with water is fine. But his Grandma “doused” it with the baking soda because it was “smoking”.

I know that but do not see the problem. If acid is leaking a bath might be in order, metal does not like acid. Of course ‘smoking’ still needs to be better defined. I think GrandMa did a good thing.

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I didn’t fully explain. Loose connection on battery terminal was smoking slightly when my wife was attempting to start the car. My young son popped the hood to take a peek and my Grandmother who lived with us got to it with the baking soda before I got home. Yep, killed the battery. She meant well though.

She was a kick. My then 7 or 8y/o son got in the car once, cranked it and was getting ready to take it for a spin. She stood in the driveway telling him your Dad’s gonna bust your butt when he gets home – but didn’t attempt to stop him 🙂 Luckily he didn’t get far

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Myst

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Ok conductive water shorted it out? Open water caps? I may be dumber that I thought but I am still not seeing it. cyber what am I missing?

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My son had popped the caps to check battery water level and just laid them back on, not seated well. When my wife attempted to start again, the loose connection on the terminal was smoking. Being a top post battery not a side post, she poured about 2 boxes of baking soda on the top of battery. When I got home it was a big mound of white. Enough got into the cells to kill the battery.

Never Say Never

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wavy

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Several have commented here disapproving, essentially, of using all means necessary (including pouring backing soda on the battery) to stop a potential electric fire that can torch the car. I must respectfully disagree: a wrecked battery is better than a burned out car. That, if it burned inside the garage, then it might also burn into the house and then the lucky owners may end up being news for once in their lives. Yay!

Go thank your granny for wrecking your battery. Or take flowers to her, depending on granny’s permanent location these days.

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I’m not blaming her at all. She overreacted but she’s not a mechanic – although she was a tough crafty person and could fix more than she broke! We grew up around and running heavy equipment and she was was there for all that. I gave her a hard time and she dished it right back at me but that’s how we roll 🙂

Heck she used to hang out with me making sure I was eating and drinking properly when I worked on my cars and even let me store a complete drivetrain and asst body parts in her small apartment -on her sofa no less- before I convinced her to move in with us!

Never Say Never

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Myst

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Your Grandma sounds like an incredibly wonderful woman!

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wavy, cyberSAR

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That she was Myst! I called her Ma for many of my younger years because she watched me and that’s what everyone around called her. Stopped after realizing it hurt my mother’s feelings, understandably.

Always wondered why she didn’t drive and the story was she had a flat at a very young newly married age. Told my Grandfather, “Come get this piece of cr*p car” and never drove again! 🙂

Never Say Never

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Myst

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What a character indeed, with a warm and loving heart. At the same time, don’t mess with “Ma” haha. You were quite lucky to have her. And vice versa! Y’all have a great rest of the weekend.

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You know something I hate now is cars don’t have keys anymore! Every time I go to fool with the wife or anyone’s car I have to get them to start the danged thing for me!

Never Say Never

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You still have to carry a “Fob” which tells the car’s computer that you are it’s owner.  The pushbutton starting won’t work without the Fob, and I think maybe the doors won’t open either, but that may vary from car to car.  The part I don’t like about this is that car thieves can wait near your car and when you approach with your Fob they can get your frequency. Once they have that they can use special crook type software to start and take off with your car.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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Yeah it’s weird. I can pop the trunk on my wife’s car with her in the house. My daughter drove her GM vehicle about 10 miles to the store without her fob. She just couldn’t start it once she did her shopping and we had to pick up her fob and bring it to her. Weird!

Never Say Never

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Yeah, those fobs can have enough transmitting range to be picked up by car thieves driving by if a road is close enough to your home.  Best thing I’ve heard you can do is wrap the fob in aluminum foil to stop or at least hinder its transmitting range.  This applies to some regular key start keys with buttons for door opening too.  I keep my Scion keys in a metal box on my dresser approx. 70 feet away from the car.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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I understand it is possible for the owner to start the car or truck or van from inside the house, so the engine is running nice and warm, particularly in winter, when the owner finally gets to it. This has impressed me as a pretty silly idea. But maybe it’s just me?

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Charlie

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If you live where the average overnight low temp is -10 F (or colder), it’s not quite so silly! 🙂

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Myst, SueW

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DrBonzo: “If you live where the average overnight low temp is -10 F (or colder), it’s not quite so silly!”

I have neighbors and know of others in this area that have and use this remote start feature, and we don’t have temperatures below freezing for very long in winter or early spring, and never below zero F. Cars with properly tuned engines start just fine under these conditions and need very little time to warm up, if at all.

And concerning the remote starter not unlocking doors as well, has anyone noticed a reference, some comments above this one, to the handy use as a car’s skeleton key of a stretched out coat hanger wire with a twist to form a hook at one end? Having used this improvised car-opener a few times to open a car (with a legal right to open it!), I can assure those who might not be familiar with the procedure that it works just fine (depending on the car make and model). There is also the alternative and even simpler to use approach involving a properly applied brick to a closed door-window. No need to short the key to start the engine: it’s already running. Got to get away faster, that’s all.

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

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It’s a great idea but I wouldn’t want that option if I lived in an apartment in a heavily populated area. Unless the doors stay locked someone could ride off with your car.  Some other “creature comforts” I’ve heard of that might be considered silly are heated steering wheels and air conditioned seats!

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My wife’s new Challenger has all these goofy “features”. I HATE them. Riding along and all of a sudden some voice comes over the stereo advising of something and can’t figure out how to shut her up! Backing up and a single blade of grass that is too tall and the stupid car starts beeping and squealing! Bah… Humbug!

Never Say Never

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We got under the dash of our H3 and pulled the connection to the OnStar module. Nonsense to have a “live” navigator in your car you’ve never met, and half the time the service disconnected. Didn’t use it long enough to even get familiar. GPS on our devices serves the purpose of getting from point A to B. And for that I’m grateful.

And! (Had to take this post to edit to add another quip about talking cars). You lock your keys in the car and call OnStar to unlock it. Hmm. To me that seemed creepy. Remember taking a coat hanger and sticking it down the window shaft to unlock the door when the keys got locked inside?

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Quite a few years back we were buying a car and the bank wanted to put in some type of location device. I guess to keep tabs on the car and assist in repos. Nope. Canceled the deal, moved our accounts to another bank that wasn’t so stupid. I understand insurance companies do the same now with the carrot that you get lower rates. Nope!

Probably futile now with all the onboard garbage from the factory.

Never Say Never

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Charlie, DrBonzo, SueW, Myst

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sounds like an accident waiting to happen

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@Charlie, the doors stay locked because the engine is started by a remote starter.

Oh, and my Saab had heated front seats, which were wonderful. The “trolls” from Trollhättan (Sweden) knew how to build Saabs (and planes)!

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Heated seats I can understand, and for some, even air conditioned seats. I solve both of these by buying non-vinyl cloth or upholstery fabric seats.  Only my mustang still has the hot in summer cold in winter vinyl seats.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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cyberSAR wrote:

My son had popped the caps to check battery water level and just laid them back on, not seated well. When my wife attempted to start again, the loose connection on the terminal was smoking. Being a top post battery not a side post, she poured about 2 boxes of baking soda on the top of battery. When I got home it was a big mound of white. Enough got into the cells to kill the battery.

Got you 😥

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Alex5723 wrote:

I can’t drive a car that doesn’t have a multimedia system with touch screen and Apple Car Play.

This is why hackers have a field day. Only safe car are the old one that have no electric parts.

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Not that I disagree, Anonymous, but I believe that one still need to have electricity to make sparks in the igniti0n system and lights to drive at night, even if the car is old. Mine is 32 years old and has all of that. It also has braking and turning lights. All electrical parts.

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

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anonymous wrote:

This is why hackers have a field day

Hacker never remotely hacked Apple’s car play (nor iCloud).
Hackers did hack remotely Tesla cars (no Car Play in Tesla).

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A F-35 has less lines of code than a car.

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To everyone, this car topic has been both fun and informative.  If you need a place to talk about a problem with car technology, remember that you have a place here to do it.  It’s getting a bit crazy with cars these days.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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@Charlie I know you were a Stang fan so this was our last one. Guy towing a boat ran a light and took out the wife’s baby a couple years ago. We liked the 2012 body style and couldn’t find a suitable replacement as we don’t like the new “batman” looking style. Convinced her to test drive a Challenger and she hasn’t regretted it at all 🙂

Never Say Never

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Charlie

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Ouch!  That’s a shame.  I feel for you and your wife’s car, but I’d really feel bad if that was a vintage mustang from the 60’s.  It’s getting very costly to keep the old ones in good shape.  Especially now that I’m getting too old to do all the work I used to be able to do in my younger days.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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cyberSAR

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No doubt. If it’d been the old ’65 or ’68 I would have cried! Not only costly on the old ones but sometimes almost impossible to find parts so you need a really good machinist and body man. You aren’t the only one missing the old days when we could shimmy under a vehicle on a moments notice. Heck, I have to change the battery in my old truck and I’ve been stalling for over a week now 🙂 BTW Don’t get me started on how much I despise the inventor of the side post battery terminal!

Never Say Never

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My Mom and Dad both taught me the ins and outs and whatnots of basic car mechanics. The days getting under the old SUV to change the oil and under the hood for at home routine maintenance and checkpoint, are long gone. And I miss my CB radio and flying down the interstate on my back and forth route chatting with truckers. My ‘89 GM SUV served me well at 95 mph Nevada style. Racing on black ice was nuts but that trip was boring on a specific stretch of highway. Now I get chills when there’s snow on the road. Ah to be young and dumb again. Miss the fly by the seat of my pants days.

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Charlie, cyberSAR

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We don’t get black ice down here but we do get flooded roads and I have plucked quite a few from their roofs when they barrelled into the flooded road and sunk the vehicle! I imagine the black ice would be much more scary!

The look of a cop hanging onto his or her lightbar is something to behold!

Never Say Never

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wavy, Myst

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Are you kidding?! Black ice was FUN! Interstate was wide open in Nevada the day a girl about my age flew up alongside in her almost perfect match of an SUV and put me to a challenge on the ice. I win. Rather I win the you’ve got to be out of your mind award. Used cruise control on ice at some spots. Lucky. I don’t brag about this with the kids. No way. And good for you to come to the rescue for folks diving into the flood. Thank goodness you were there to help!

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cyberSAR

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@Myst If I was Elon Musk or Bill Gates rich I’d get you, me and @Charlie out for a beer or three. I bet we’d have a ball!

Never Say Never

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Charlie, Myst

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Hope your wife wasn’t hurt in that crash! Looks bad. Sorry about that but glad she liked her replacement.

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Charlie, cyberSAR

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She’s OK. Was concussed and messed up her neck. Didn’t even recognize my son who responded to the accident. For about 2 weeks she flopped around on the floor due to severe vertigo a few times but we got a good neuro that was able to treat her without surgery. So far so good and hoping it doesn’t come back or get worse.

Never Say Never

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Wow! Sorry to hear that but glad she was able to avoid surgery. Hope it doesn’t come back.

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Charlie

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It is easier to hack into cars now thanks to computers. Soon all who do not want to be hacked will need to get a Model T. These have 0 computer and still run after being almost 100 years old.

 

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No airbags, no seatbelts… can’t use them well on the freeway.  I’m not sure I’d call that “running”.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady

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A great looking T like this is mainly used in car shows and parades, and maybe for short runs around a small uncrowded town.  Now a Model A would still keep up, but I’m afraid on today’s roads and highways, with today’s drivers, you would have real safety worries.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

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