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  • UEFI

    This topic contains 18 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  bbearren 12 hours, 19 minutes ago.

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    • #2139821 Reply

      wavy
      AskWoody Plus

      re KB4524244 and the UEFI ‘patch’ I may be WAY WAY off base here but here goes: the
      “UEFI boot manager ” referenced is not the firmware applications supplied by Motherboard manufacturers but the part that gets installed by an OS setup program when it is installing the OS. That would be in part a “BootOrder variable” that directs the firmware where to find the applicable EFI file ( \EFI\boot\bootx64.efi for Windows 64 bit various other places for other OSs ). I do not know but there must be safe guards to prevent a non SecureBoot when one is called for. I recall the problems Linux users had booting when this SecureBoot stuff started years ago with having a valid signed boot code to boot and only MS certs shipping with MotherBoards. So I ask is the new patch just adjusting the “BootOrder variable” implimentation that is put in by the OS in the first place?

      🍻

      Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
    • #2139833 Reply

      Paul T
      AskWoody MVP

      I don’t think we have details yet. I’m sure Woody will let us know when we have.

      cheers, Paul

    • #2139889 Reply

      steeviebops
      AskWoody Lounger
    • #2139991 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      I’m trying to wrap my head around it now….

    • #2140064 Reply

      EP
      AskWoody_MVP

      issues with both KB4532693 AND KB4524244 mentioned on this Windows Latest page:
      https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/02/13/windows-10-kb4532693-and-kb4524244-issues/

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2140089 Reply

        wavy
        AskWoody Plus

        Seems to be HP AMD based machines, doesn’t mean the HP is the culprit whose code MS is trying to address with that patch.

        🍻

        Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2140107 Reply

          woody
          Da Boss

          Very good point.

          Any idea what’s going on? This patch is gumming up things all over….

    • #2140236 Reply

      cmptrgy
      AskWoody Plus

      My HP EliteBook 8540w is Intel based and it’s BIOS mode is Legacy.
      — I probably don’t have anything to be concerned about on my laptop: however, I need to know about this subject at least somewhat better.
      KB4532693 was installed the other day on Feb 11.
      KB4524244 is pending download today Feb 13.
      I haven’t read the articles yet but I will be.

      Usually I create a system image backup before some “event” I’m not sure about.
      — Right now I’m wondering if creating a system image backup would recover from a BIOS issue after a KB Windows Update: UEFI or Legacy.

      I’ve read a few times over the years that the BIOS is a separate “entity” vs. the Windows system in a PC.
      — Is that true?
      — Is it worth taking the time to create a system image back before it’s known a change in BIOS or UEFI setting(s) will be happening?

      HP EliteBook 8540w laptop Windows 10 Pro (x64)

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      • #2140261 Reply

        wavy
        AskWoody Plus

        An image backup before a major change is always a good idea cmptrgy. But you have a great point an image may not revert changes made certainly not if to firmware, however a system restore might. A restore point may be an excellent idea as Windows has been know to turn auto ones off do a manual.

        🍻

        Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2140393 Reply

        Paul T
        AskWoody MVP

        Is it worth taking the time to create a system image back before it’s known a change in BIOS or UEFI setting(s) will be happening?

        You can’t backup the BIOS unless you use a utility from the computer manufacturer. System image does nothing here.

        cheers, Paul

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2140243 Reply

      krzemien
      AskWoody Lounger

      For what it’s worth: this update got installed itself along the Feb CU on my HP OMEN 870-095na two days ago and without any artefacts or side-effects either (well, my PC was definitely operational as usual earlier today).

      Although my OS disk is a clone of a clone of an original SSD that came with this PC from factory – with OS partition only expanded each time accordingly – I have never had any serious inclination to tinker with boot records / UEFI partition, or with related UEFI/BIOS settings either (Secure Boot remains enabled etc.).

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2140525 Reply

      cmptrgy
      AskWoody Plus

      Is it worth taking the time to create a system image back before it’s known a change in BIOS or UEFI setting(s) will be happening?

      You can’t backup the BIOS unless you use a utility from the computer manufacturer. System image does nothing here.

      cheers, Paul

      I didn’t even know about Windows Updates affecting BIOS settings before these last few years. As an older person I do recall how handling BIOS updates etc. could brick the PC and that’s what’s in the back of my mind. Thanks to the information and support available here on AskWoody it helps me to keep up-to-date on todays world of computers and I’m glad I asked the questions I did.

      HP EliteBook 8540w laptop Windows 10 Pro (x64)

    • #2140550 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Plus

      Best (plausible and understandable) explanation here:
      https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Business-Notebooks/KB4524244-cause-certain-HP-computers-to-hang-and-even-brick/td-p/7471459

      G{ot backup} TestBeta On hiatus.
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      • #2140586 Reply

        wavy
        AskWoody Plus

        plausible for why HP was having problems. Whom the fix was for is still in question in my mind.

        🍻

        Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
    • #2140587 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      KB4524244 installed on my DIY daily-driver desktop on 2-12-2020, apparently overnight, as well as my laptop.  My NAS got it today.  Everything is fine, as usual.

      UEFI is not BIOS.  It replaces BIOS (even though it is still referred to as BIOS).  “The Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) is a specification that defines a software interface between an operating system and platform firmware. UEFI replaces the legacy Basic Input/Output System (BIOS) firmware interface originally present in all IBM PC-compatible personal computers, with most UEFI firmware implementations providing support for legacy BIOS services. UEFI can support remote diagnostics and repair of computers, even with no operating system installed.

      Intel developed the original Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) specifications. Some of the EFI’s practices and data formats mirror those of Microsoft Windows. In 2005, UEFI deprecated EFI 1.10 (the final release of EFI). The Unified EFI Forum is the industry body that manages the UEFI specifications throughout.”

      The implementation of UEFI can very from one OEM to the next, and those variations can occasionally cause  issues for the end user.  my DIY uses an Intel DH87RL consumer motherboard (which Intel no longer offers) and so the UEFI specifications at the time of manufacture (2013) were fully implemented for my motherboard, with Intel’s own GUI applied on top.  Interestingly, they call their implementation Intel Visual BIOS.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2140595 Reply

        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        The BIOS still lives in every Windows PC and gets periodically firmware updates.

        Example : BIOS Firmware update for my Lenovo Y530. BIOS Mode – UEFI :

        Flash BIOS update – Flash from Operating System version for Legion Y530-15ICH

        Version 8JCN53WW

        Applicable OS: Windows 10 64-bit

        Installation README
        Updated Date: 2019-10-12

        This package updates the basic input/output system (BIOS) on Legion Y530-15ICH
        BIOS, abbreviation of Basic Input Output System, is integrated in ROM chip on main board, which contains the basic input/output program, system configuration information, system startup self-check and pre-setup programs. BIOS provides most basic low-level hardware operations; it is the connection between software and hardware, and interfacing window of hardware and operating system.

        Note: Make note of any settings you have changed in the BIOS Configuration Utility. These settings may have to be re-entered after updating the BIOS.

        Attention: Do not power off or restart your computer during the BIOS flashing process, which will cause serious damage and improper functioning of your computer.

        • #2140634 Reply

          bbearren
          AskWoody MVP

          The reference to “BIOS” is simply to avoid confusion for long-time PC users. “UEFI replaces the traditional BIOS on PCs. There’s no way to switch from BIOS to UEFI on an existing PC. You need to buy new hardware that supports and includes UEFI, as most new computers do. Most UEFI implementations provide BIOS emulation so you can choose to install and boot old operating systems that expect a BIOS instead of UEFI, so they’re backwards compatible.”

          “The traditional BIOS still has serious limitations. It can only boot from drives of 2.1 TB or less. 3 TB drives are now common, and a computer with a BIOS can’t boot from them. That limitation is due to the way the BIOS’s Master Boot Record system works.”

          “The BIOS must run in 16-bit processor mode, and only has 1 MB of space to execute in. It has trouble initializing multiple hardware devices at once, which leads to a slower boot process when initializing all the hardware interfaces and devices on a modern PC.”

          “This new standard avoids the limitations of the BIOS. The UEFI firmware can boot from drives of 2.2 TB or larger—in fact, the theoretical limit is 9.4 zettabytes. That’s roughly three times the estimated size of all the data on the Internet. That’s because UEFI uses the GPT partitioning scheme instead of MBR. It also boots in a more standardized way, launching EFI executables rather than running code from a drive’s master boot record.

          UEFI can run in 32-bit or 64-bit mode and has more addressable address space than BIOS, which means your boot process is faster. It also means that UEFI setup screens can be slicker than BIOS settings screens, including graphics and mouse cursor support. However, this isn’t mandatory. Many PCs still ship with text-mode UEFI settings interfaces that look and work like an old BIOS setup screen.

          UEFI is packed with other features. It supports Secure Boot, which means the operating system can be checked for validity to ensure no malware has tampered with the boot process. It can support networking features right in the UEFI firmware itself, which can aid in remote troubleshooting and configuration. With a traditional BIOS, you have to be sitting in front of a physical computer to configure it.

          It’s not just a BIOS replacement, either. UEFI is essentially a tiny operating system that runs on top of the PC’s firmware, and it can do a lot more than a BIOS. It may be stored in flash memory on the motherboard, or it may be loaded from a hard drive or network share at boot.

          Different PCs with UEFI will have different interfaces and features. It’s all up to your PC manufacturer, but the basics will be the same on each PC.”

          So no, it most definitely is not BIOS. It’s just called that.

          Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
          "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
          "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2141998 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      There seems to be some confusion about how UEFI actually works. It still has the same basic input/output functions as the old BIOS that it replaces, but without the limitations of BIOS. The boot order is still much the same, with the exception that Windows cannot directly boot from a GPT disk, so UEFI points to the drive that contains the EFI partition (formatted in FAT32) for boot instructions, from where the bootmgr.efi is launched.

      Bootmgr.efi reads the BCD store (also located in the EFI partition) and presents it as a menu as the first part of the boot process, showing a couple of options such as memory diagnostics.

      Boot-Manager

      If you dual boot, you’re also given the option of which OS to load, or simple deferring to the default once the delay times out. Since I dual boot, I have a problem with the bootmgr that Windows 8/8.1/10 uses. It preloads the default OS part way before it presents the menu, so if I then want to boot into the non-default OS, it does a complete reboot. I replaced it with the Windows 7 bootmgr, which presents the boot menu before it does anything else. Much more convenient for dual boot.

      Boot-Menu

      As for Secure Boot, I have neither the underlying platform nor Secure Boot itself enabled, and from what I’ve read, those can only be set at the user level. OEM’s, on the other hand, are required by Microsoft to enable Secure Boot.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2140718 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      “In July 2005, Intel ceased its development of the EFI specification at version 1.10, and contributed it to the Unified EFI Forum, which has developed the specification as the Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI). The original EFI specification remains owned by Intel, which exclusively provides licenses for EFI-based products, but the UEFI specification is owned by the UEFI Forum.”

      The Unified Extensible Firmware Interface Forum or UEFI Forum is an alliance between several leading technology companies to modernize the booting process. The board of directors includes representatives from thirteen “Promoter” companies: AMD, American Megatrends, ARM, Apple, Dell, Hewlett Packard Enterprise, HP Inc., IBM, Insyde Software, Intel, Lenovo, Microsoft, and Phoenix Technologies.”

      The hitch is that OEM’s are not obligated to implement the complete specifications.  They are free to omit whatever parts they don’t wish to use.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      2 users thanked author for this post.

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