We listened, we listened!

Topic

New Reply

Here’s the thing. Susan and I get a lot of email (we do our best to answer everyone). We grin and light up when complimented; we grit our teeth and be
[See the full post at: We listened, we listened!]

7 users thanked author for this post.

Tom-R, tjm1963, Sky, Goikey, GreatAndPowerfulTech, Alex5723, abbodi86

Reply | Quote

Replies

Makes sense 🙂

1 user thanked author for this post.

Will Fastie

Reply | Quote

No good deed goes unpunished, huh?

Well, here is the other thing: many, many, many, many, many people just hate change. Of anything. Hate it just as much if it is clearly for the better as if it is obviously for the worse.

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

Reply | Quote

OscarCP wrote:

Well, here is the other thing: many … many people just hate change.

True enough. But in this case, I think we did create some confusion. It was inadvertent, not intended, but confusion nonetheless. The complaints were consistent.

Reply | Quote

Well, why the weird colors now for MS-Defcon?

Here’s what I see now:

1 = Purple
2= peach
3= lime green
4= Microsoft blue
5= forest green

Why no red? No red color on Basilisk or Fx60.9 ESR either. Even Edge shows purple. Your “Home” button displays as true red on mouse hover and it is an entirely different color from the purple you are using for defcon 1..

Have you looked at your MS Defcon sYSTEM page? The vertical list of the icons is in DIFFERENT COLORS from what is shown at the top of the main site page. The colors used in the vertical list are LOVELY. Why can’t you use those instead of the awful ones you now have at the top of main site page? At any rate, the two sets should match in colors used.

Woody’s colors were fine. You should have just stayed with them.

I’m sorry the above is negative, but if I didn’t love this site I wouldn’t have bothered writing this. Now these weird colors have me confused as to whether number 1 or number 5 is the worst condition.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Will Fastie

Reply | Quote

These are the same colors as the original “Woody theme”.  Have you set overrides in colors in your browser by any chance?

I notice you are not a plus member.  Is there a reason that we can’t encourage you to support the site as well?

Susan Bradley Patch Lady

Reply | Quote

Mele20 wrote:

The colors used in the vertical list are LOVELY.

Thanks! The colors on the MS-DEFCON page represent the “on” or “lit” version of the condition. In the banner on the home page, only one of the digits is lit; the others are off. In the alerts, we show the lit version of the digit.

Mele20 wrote:

Well, why the weird colors now for MS-Defcon?

Of the five colors (or perhaps I should say color pairs to represent the on and off conditions), four are exactly as they have been since May. Only the color for level two is new. They were rearranged because that is what readers asked for.

Reply | Quote

I like the new system, I find it a bit easier to read.

While the notion of associating the prospect of patching Windows with terror alert levels makes sense and seems natural and appropriate in so many ways, the quiet, closed mouth chuckling contemplating that equivalency is causing me to experience may be slightly beyond appropriate. Or not. 😁

Reply | Quote

My brain has never accepted nor understood the R to L increasing logic (not helped by me not being American)
The levels should appear vertically, 1 at the top. Simple !

2 users thanked author for this post.

Kranium, Will Fastie

Reply | Quote

jbhq wrote:

The levels should appear vertically

I take the point, but vertical is a bit challenging on the website. The banners were horizontal to begin with and we haven’t strayed from that. I think I’d get a lot of email if we reversed now.

Reply | Quote

“What we’ve adopted now is, in effect, the same set of colors used by the US Homeland Security Advisory System (aka terror alert levels).”

Windows updates and terror alert levels.  A better match can’t be found! 🙂

5 users thanked author for this post.

wavy, DrBonzo, Microfix, Cybertooth, Will Fastie

Reply | Quote

yup, that’s thanks to Woody’s insight 🙂

Keeping IT Lean, Clean and Mean!

1 user thanked author for this post.

Charlie

Reply | Quote

This a good change. but I have never seen the 5 colors being used. 3 colors seems enough. green: go ahead, orange: caution, red: stop.

Reply | Quote

Since only ‘states’ 2, 3 and 4 get used in practice, why not use the traffic light colours Red, Yellow / Amber, Green?

If you really want to emphasise a catastrophic patch condition, add the (UK only?) railway signals which show TWO Reds.

I really cannot foresee any occasion when you could validly use TWO Greens for a Microsoft Patch Condition…

BATcher

Plethora means a lot to me.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Mele20

Reply | Quote

BATcher wrote:

Since only ‘states’ 2, 3 and 4 get used in practice …

One and five have been used in the past. They were not used during the past year because, in Susan’s judgment, neither the most severe nor least dangerous conditions existed. Five levels allows nuance.

Reply | Quote

I’ve done 1 at least once.  I keep 5 there as enticement for Microsoft to one day make a perfect patching month.  Don’t hold your breath.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady

1 user thanked author for this post.

Cybertooth

Reply | Quote

I know that increasing the size of the icon for the current alert level is intended to highlight where the level stands, but then when that happens the big number in the box gets flipped to a lighter color than both its surrounding elements and the rest of the MS-DEFCON numbers. This decreases the contrast between the current level and its surroundings, making the current level actually harder to pick out.

In general, the design is needlessly complex and features too many visual distractions. If it were me doing it, I would dispense with the color scheme altogether (all coloring) and use a high-contrast design: for example, the current MS-DEFCON level in black and all the other levels in the same dim gray so that they don’t distract from the thing that we want the eyes to be drawn to.

Just my $0.02.

 

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

3 users thanked author for this post.

Myst, Mele20, Microfix

Reply | Quote

The highlighted patch condition should be easily visable and vibrant at a glance not pastel colors.
Alas, Woody had it spot on, which was easily recognisable as a first point of viewing to newcomers and regulars…

Keeping IT Lean, Clean and Mean!

4 users thanked author for this post.

Myst, Cybertooth, Mele20, OscarCP

Reply | Quote

Hover over help text added to each icon would be helpful for me. Something short like-  Icon 1 (Don’t patch), 2 (Patch only if have immediate need),3 (Prudent to patch, be careful), 4 (Some isolated problems – patch), 5 (All Clear Patch now). Currently anywhere on the image has the help text “MS Defcon System Click for Details”. If afraid of misinterpretation add Click for Detail for each icon. i.e Icon 1 “Don’t Patch – Click for detail”.

2 users thanked author for this post.

KP, Cybertooth

Reply | Quote

One would think with all the really awful things there are in the world to worry about, this complaining about the MS-DEFCON thing would be way, way low on the things to complain about rating.

I personally think the MS-DEFCON letters and colors look fine even when they’ve been changed on occasion.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

4 users thanked author for this post.

OscarCP, wavy, DrBonzo, Will Fastie

Reply | Quote

BATcher wrote:

If you really want to emphasise a catastrophic patch condition, add the (UK only?) railway signals which show TWO Reds.

UK railway signals might have two yellows, but never two reds. Two yellows denote the next signal may well be a single yellow and the following signal is red.

Eliminate spare time: start programming PowerShell

1 user thanked author for this post.

ScotchJohn

Reply | Quote

Sueska wrote:

help text

To the right of the image in the banner is the full explanation of what the level means. As of today, for level 2, that description reads “Patch reliability is unclear. Unless you have an immediate, pressing need to install a specific patch, don’t do it.” No hover required.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Alex5723

Reply | Quote

http://www.geekandproud.net/terror/images/terror-all.jpg

Reply | Quote

That is OK, I like green.

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

Reply | Quote

I just opened Brave (which I try to like but it is not likeable unfortunately) so I only use it on a site I have to visit that is prejudiced against Mozilla and thus does not display correctly on Basilisk or the two versions of Fx I use.

On Brave the colors for the Defcon symbols are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from what I see on Fx 60.9 ESR and Fx 90 something on Portable Fx or see on latest Basilisk.

On Brave:

Defcon 1 is a pale teal blue
Defcon 2 is a fuchsia
Defcon 3 is a gorgeous true yellow but it is the “lit” one here on Brave. Ahh… I just noticed Brave opened the tab here to a discussion thread from this past Nov. So, I don’t know if the symbols were changed last Nov? (I come here daily but I try to ignore the symbols as I detest this childish …three years old child look that is the big thing on the net these days. Even Microsoft has lowered its standards to stick figures and other junk.
Defcon 4 is a deep NAVY blue
Defcon 5 is green

I didn’t like Woody’s Defcon symbols but they were easy to ignore. Yours are impossible to ignore and look like a 3 year old designed them IMO. Plus the current one is “lit” ….how unnecessary and CONFUSING! Lit is a bright, beautiful yellow and non lit is a very tacky “yuck” light mustard color. Lit anf non lit….geez I thought this was a SERIOUS site with useful major front page posts and great forums on computers and OSes, etc. Instead, it too is now reflecting the childish look of the internet.

I come here for the forums. They are excellent and it is very difficult these days, sadly to say, to find good forums about computers and their usage. If I were getting my first computer now instead of 1999 when there was a plethora of good computer forums, I don’t think I’d bother to get a computer. Computer tech forums were the main attraction for me….I have zero interest in social media junk and forums have been steadily disappearing for many years now. So, I usually buy a new computer when my main one is four years old…but not this time.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Cybertooth

Reply | Quote

I just tried comparing Brave and FF 90.02.

The colors were EXACTLY the same.

 

Reply | Quote

JC Zorkoff wrote:

I just tried comparing Brave and FF 90.02.

The colors were EXACTLY the same.

 

I’m using Fx 60.9 ESR. That is the last GOOD version of Fx sadly to say. Basilisk, my default browser, is forked off Fx 52.9 ESR a better version of Fx than 60.9 ESR. I don’t blindly update browsers. I never have. A new version has to EARN my respect before I update to it. Unfortunately, many updates are horrible visually. These days, it seems the rush is toward the more silly, devoid of any richness or complexity is where browsers are headed. To my great surprise, Edge which used to be really horrible has bucked the trend and is actually quite decent these days. Go figure.

Reply | Quote

There were two really good computer forums – AskWoody and the Windows Secrets Forum (sometimes known as the Windows Secrets Lounge).  For those who are new visitors to the AskWoody site, it combined with and absorbed all the great information contained in the now defunct Windows Secrets Forum.  This is one reason it’s hard to find another site as good as this one IMHO.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake as soon as you make it again.

Reply | Quote

Mele20 wrote:

I just noticed Brave opened the tab here to a discussion thread from this past Nov.

I tend to keep a ton of tabs open, including several AskWoody tabs. I also have my browsers set to restore the last session when I launch them. The tabs don’t typically refresh when reopened, but instead show whatever was on the page at the time they were closed. So it’s possible that when you opened your Brave, it reopened to what it had the last time you used it.

Anyway, I took advantage of this feature to do a straight comparison of the old and new MS-DEFCON color systems. Here’s what the previous system looked like up until a few days ago:

And, from a different page, here’s what it looks like today:

IMHO both schemes are way too busy.

 

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

2 users thanked author for this post.

Myst, Mele20

Reply | Quote

Too funny… I thought I was the only one confused by the visual presentation, only to find it’s a hot, current topic. Whoda thunk it? Once I understood that 1=bad, 5=good, the colour issue goes away.

Reply | Quote

IMO a simple 5-point radial gauge from green to red – passing through amber – (together with the same text explanation) would have been clearer and more compact.

‘Green for Go’ and ‘Red for Stop’ is almost universal. Numbers? Not so much.

 

6 users thanked author for this post.

Kranium, Mele20, KP, AlexEiffel, wavy, Will Fastie

Reply | Quote

That’s the most sane suggestion here. Easy to understand.

Rick Corbett wrote:

radial_gauge

‘Green for Go’ and ‘Red for Stop’ is almost universal. Numbers? Not so much.

Reply | Quote

Rick Corbett wrote:

radial gauge

That’s not a bad idea.

I guess the time has come for a little history so everyone knows where we were coming from.

There are more. Don’t ask.

4 users thanked author for this post.

Mele20, OscarCP, Alex5723, Cybertooth

Reply | Quote

Thank you for NOT using both Red and Green!

 

Why yes, I am red/green colour blind.

 

Green good.  Even red good (I see it as green.)  Using both creates confusion for at least 10% of the population.

Next time I’ll explain why I can still safely drive / navigate US traffic lights in spite of my colour blindness.  (yay standards!)

~ Group "Weekend" ~

1 user thanked author for this post.

Mele20

Reply | Quote

A few ideas; some are redundant overlap of the ideas but it is blue-sky pool of ideas

1) add a link to the MS-DEFCON System explained key near the MS-DEFCON logo

2) write in DEFCON 1 Red, and DEFCON 5 Green beneath the DEFCON 1 and 5 icons

3) Write out the current state from “Patch reliability is unclear” to “DefCon 2: Patch reliability is unclear”

I also like the Hover over help text and radial gauge idea

Reply | Quote

To all that are and were confused.  All you had to do was scroll over the MS-DEFCON BANNER. Doing so brings up a link (click for details) that explains the various levels. The smaller the number, the higher the risk.

Personally I prefer and trust any system modeled after the US Armed Forces over what is used by the US Homeland Security Advisory System.

The DEFCON scale is a way of assigning a numerical value to the readiness of the American military. Higher DEFCON values are used for lower levels of readiness (during more peaceful situations), while lower DEFCON values are used for higher levels of readiness (during tenser situations where the possibility of military action is more likely). A DEFCON level of 5 corresponds to ordinary peacetime, while a DEFCON level of 1 (which has never been reached) corresponds to the most dangerous situations, like thermonuclear war.

2 users thanked author for this post.

KP, Will Fastie

Reply | Quote

Bullets wrote:

All you had to do was scroll over the MS-DEFCON BANNER.

Thanks for mentioning that, but in all fairness I must add that I installed the hover and link behavior only recently. I wish I’d thought to do it sooner.

Reply | Quote

Bullets wrote:

Personally I prefer and trust any system modeled after the US Armed Forces over what is used by the US Homeland Security Advisory System.

The consistent message Susan and I were getting asked us to change the color for level 1 from white (pure DEFCON) to red. By implication, that meant changing level 5 from blue (pure DEFCON) to green. I searched for other well-known color schemes and found Homeland Security, which is why I mentioned it.

Reply | Quote

For several years I have kept a eye on the DEFCON, until January 2020, when I finally retired the old Windows 7 PC and started  using only a Mac after that, although what I actually always have followed is Susan’s Master Patch List, that now includes also the patches and upgrades to macOS. As well as the thread, with more details on the same topic, started by Nathan Parker and now taken care of by PKCano.

But, scanning the threads, I don’t remember ever seeing any complaints being posted by subscribers here about the colors and appearance of the DEFCON, unlike the ones that are currently motivated by the changes made to it by Susan and Will. So I wonder why the changes were needed in the first place. Changes are bound to bring criticism, because many people are adverse to changes made to things they are used to, so why bother changing the DEFCON and then being criticized for it?

I would think that the change might have been prompted by some changes in the WordPress software used at AskWoody, but maybe there were other reasons? I imagine that, in such a case, the reasons were not purely aesthetical ones. So what were them?

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

Reply | Quote

I’m a female.  I like redecorating.  The wood background was dated and didn’t work well on a variety of platforms. In removing the woodgrain, the Defcon had to be redone.   I’ve also changed how the forum looks as well.  Technology HAS to change to keep up and be relevant.  This site is no different.  I’ll probably change more things in the future as well.  🙂

Susan Bradley Patch Lady

2 users thanked author for this post.

Alex5723, OscarCP

Reply | Quote

OscarCP wrote:

So what were them?

This was not related to WordPress. It was a practical, economic matter, and only related to the art.

Reply | Quote