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  • What’s wrong with the Win10 1709 January Delta package?

    Home Forums AskWoody blog What’s wrong with the Win10 1709 January Delta package?

    This topic contains 45 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  MrBrian 5 months ago.

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    • #176147 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      Just saw this from Bogdan Popa on Softpedia. KB 4088776 — the for the Win10 1709 March Cumulative Update — has been modified to include this warning
      [See the full post at: What’s wrong with the Win10 1709 January Delta package?]

    • #176152 Reply

      PKCano
      AskWoody MVP

      I seem to remember this coming up before and remarking on it. I have Group Policy Delivery Optimization set to Simple (99) – HTTP, no DO, no UUP, no peering. I have been installing the whole CU. I recall I did not have a problem when others did.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #176297 Reply

        ch100
        AskWoody MVP

        Just to clarify the DO settings.
        99 (simple) is DO, without peer-to-peer download style and without uploading data to a Cloud service, available only in Group Policy.
        0 (HTTP) is also DO style, in the sense that it uses a cloud service to upload data, what is commonly known as telemetry.
        100 is legacy BITS, i.e. what we know from Windows 7, 8.1 and any other edition than Windows 10. Very reliable, but does full downloads from the Store. This is the only mode currently supported by System Center Configuration Manager, the Enterprise management and updating tool for Windows.

        While I consider 99 the optimal setting because it seems to allow delta downloads from Windows Store, unlike 100 which only allows full downloads, for Windows Update purpose only, 99 or 100 do not make a difference in terms of deltas.
        Windows Update deltas use a streaming protocol known from other technologies which is agnostic to BITS or DO.

        At least this is my understanding of it, based on Microsoft documentation
        https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/waas-delivery-optimization
        https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/mniehaus/2016/08/16/windows-10-delivery-optimization-and-wsus-take-2/
        but also from very useful discussions with another member of this forum who likely has a better understanding of the details than I do.

        Like @pkcano, I also install full CU, never delta, but this is relatively difficult to achieve by using only Windows Update. An easy option is to use WUMT.

        • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  ch100.
        • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  ch100.
        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #176306 Reply

          PKCano
          AskWoody MVP

          What I read (interpreted) in GP about 99 was that it used simple download and bypassed the cloud DO servers. My interpretation was that using 99 downloaded the CU and optimization was done ON the local machine, instead of using the DO servers to do it TO the machine from the cloud and then download the difference instead of whole CU.

          I could be definitely wrong here, but that is my interpretation of what I read.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #176335 Reply

            ch100
            AskWoody MVP

            I think the cloud servers only keep track in pure telemetry style. They do not contribute to direct optimization of the packages, but may direct the peer-to-peer transfer though, by tracking the hosts involved based on IDs for each machine.
            Delivery Optimization appears not to have anything to do with deltas, as they use a different technology. I may be wrong here though. I had the same point of view with you on this matter, but someone who knows this stuff better 🙂 convinced me otherwise on a different forum board.

            1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #176162 Reply

      anonymous

      1709 was never a first-class citizen (it’s not even selected by default on the Windows 10 update history page [support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4018124/windows-10-update-history]) and nobody should waste any more time with it. Even the most disturbing Windows 10 releases we’ve seen so far (usually those released in the second half of the year) were quite more ‘enjoyable’…

      Although the upcoming 1803 release still has some unfixed bugs (i.e. dragging items from the start menu onto an application will lock the screen after some mouse clicks until the start menu is reopened and closed one more time… and the ‘smart’ folks at Microsoft seem to be unable to fix it since Windows 10 was RTMed…), it’s way better than 1709 ever was. Sure, one should disable/remove all the fancy and over-hyped nonsense added to Windows 10 and a number of services and scheduled task, and block telemetry and other snooping to get the best experience… However, even if all performance tweaks are applied, Windows 10 still is quite a bit slower than previous versions (i.e. Windows 7 or Windows 8.1). But yes, the folks at Microsoft reinvent the wheel 3 times a day and mess with settings even more often so one shouldn’t be surprised that Windows 10 is a lame duck.

      • #176208 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        1709 was never a first-class citizen

        It’s definitely a “tock” in the tick-tock scheme of things.

        I was going back over the feature improvements in the various versions of Win10, putting them in the book, and I had to really struggle to find anything good to say about 1709.

        Yet, what, 85% of all Win10 users are on 1709? Marching ants….

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #176220 Reply

          anonymous

          remember Mr.woody, most of people aren’t aware of the feature upgrades and the damages they do to a computer.

          • #176295 Reply

            zero2dash
            AskWoody Lounger

            1703 and 1709 have been smooth sailing, easily the best builds of 10 so far for me on several machines. No “computer damage” here. o.O

            1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #176235 Reply

          anonymous

          Thankfully, I have not yet seen an actual marching ant crash.

        • #176241 Reply

          RamRod
          AskWoody Lounger

          Still fat and sassy on 1511. The sky hasn’t fallen and the beat goes on. Let me know when/if they add/subtract something that might motivate me to upgrade.

        • #176293 Reply

          zero2dash
          AskWoody Lounger

          Definitely agree about it being a “tock” – and I think 1803 will be one as well.
          1703 seems like it was the first “big” improvement build… I can’t say I follow enough to say what changes version to version but quite a bit came with 1703. 1709 they colored the Cortana bar white instead of black (with the black theme) and added the People icon that I don’t see a use for. Otherwise I think a few more things moved around in Settings and…. that’s it. Oh, they added the EMET functionality into Defender.

          1803 from the RS4 VM playing I’ve done, I don’t see much use (for me) with the overhaul to Task View, “Timeline” (or whatever it’s called). I like the semi-glass “Fluent design” changes to Settings but otherwise I have no idea what else is new.

          They’d be better off going back to the old name scheme because I don’t feel like these updates are (to the end user) as astronomical as MS wants us to believe, but [shrug]. As long as they keep releasing stable, solid as a rock updates – for me – they can call them whatever they want. 😀

        • #176325 Reply

          anonymous

          The thing is that Microsoft is testing new things in the ‘fall’ release (i.e. Windows Defender service got moved to the background process list) just to figured it doesn’t work well… Sure enough, they don’t clean up the mess left behind forcing users to migrate to the next version. If there is no urgent need to migrate to the ‘fall’ release, one should stick with ‘spring’ releases.

    • #176265 Reply

      abbodi86
      AskWoody MVP

      It’s there since tuesday, not modified 🙂

      nothing serious, delta packages rely on previous security cumulative update
      it seems with January CPU patches mess, some dependencies or components got broken

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #176278 Reply

      anonymous

      Perhaps there might be some configuration details which were ignored or left out ?

      Good luck to the Enterprise IT folks installing the newer larger cumulative updates. (For new Askwoody readers, Cumulative updates are the size equivalent of downloading a fifty percent compressed Windows 10 ISO image every time when released to the public.)

    • #176305 Reply

      anonymous

      Its incredible how inestable is 1709,   I remember that  september of last year, Creators update was already approved and it was its 5th month.

    • #176331 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      This is probably what’s been causing failures of updates on my Win 10 v1709 test system.

      Seriously? Uninstall an update to get Windows Update to work again? Aren’t past problems what later CUMULATIVE updates are supposed to fix?

      I can only imagine how ticked off I’d be if I was actually trying to RELY on this turkey operating system for my business or personal computing.

      CantFollow

      -Noel

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      4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #176372 Reply

        GoneToPlaid
        AskWoody Lounger

        I am so glad that I, personally, do not use Windows 10. At the office, I gave explicit instructions to the new IT guy to NOT purchase any computers with Windows 10 installed. He went ahead and purchased two Windows 10 computers. Both have since been retired and replaced with certified refurbished Windows 7 computers. Given that the attorneys at the office bill up to around $500 per hour, it still took some months for me to convince the head of the law firm to replace those two Windows 10 computers. The head decided to do so, yet only after I found certified refurbished Windows 7 computers with decent specs at inexpensive prices. The head of the law firm not only replaced the two Windows 10 computers, but also authorized the new IT guy to purchase additional certified refurbished Windows 7 computers for future deployment.

        At the rate which Microsoft is going, I foresee that Windows 10 will never be adopted widely in the corporate world — regardless of Microsoft’s claims that Windows 10 is ready for corporate deployment. Windows 10 continually is in beta, and at many times is in alpha after Windows 10 automatically installs botched updates. It readily appears that Microsoft is continually trying, “Well, let’s try this or let’s try that” in order to do whatever Microsoft can to finally hit the nail on the head when the actual nail is non-existent. I figure that there will be at least another year of Microsoft beating the Win10 dead horse to death before Microsoft eventually realizes that they did not deliver what both consumers and corporate wanted — a good successor for Windows 7. Windows 8 sure as h*** wasn’t it. If Windows 8 was a worthy successor, then there would not be Windows 10. This the long and the short of it, and Nadella either is completely in the dark about this, or Nadella refuses to acknowledge his own follies. My money is on the latter since Nadella is a type A personality who refuses to see when one has made gross mistakes. It is what it is.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #176402 Reply

          anonymous

          Neigh! say they, Microsoft can afford the horse play.

    • #176319 Reply

      anonymous

      I had doubts about skipping 1709 and wait for 1803 to get stable, but with this patch, I WILL surely wait until 1803 is stable enough.

    • #176323 Reply

      anonymous

      I’ve had this issue on a laptop this week that’s just Pro, not Enterprise. I had to uninstall every single Windows update (to get back to 16299.15) before I was able to install March’s update, 16299.309. Took forever, too, because I had to run a PowerShell script to explicitly remove the 16299.248 update because it didn’t seem to remove by using the c***py Control Panel uninstall updates thing.

      Yay “security”!

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #176407 Reply

        abbodi86
        AskWoody MVP

        They said “Enterprise” because delta updates are ment for IT and Enterprise users
        but the issue is for any edition

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #176343 Reply

      anonymous

      I want to warn everyone,  there is a new version of 4023057  if you are checking for updates, run Wushowhide first to block it.

      • #176382 Reply

        bobcat5536
        AskWoody Lounger

        Open for suggestions here…I clean out temp files and run disc clean and I have yet to get wushowhide to come up with any updates except printer and third party updates. I have never seen a KB update come up yet. Any idea what I’m doing wrong here ? I run it and uncheck the fix option, it brings up the 2 options to hide or unhide and I never see any serious updates to block. ???

        • #176384 Reply

          anonymous

          Well, just run wushowhide before WU maybe it wont surprise you.

        • #176410 Reply

          anonymous

          You seem to have automatically applied repairs.

          Did you uncheck the automatic repairs box, waiting until you see and click on the ‘hide updates’ button to see what is in the queue?

          • #176455 Reply

            bobcat5536
            AskWoody Lounger

            Yep..I uncheck the repairs box, it scans and I look at the hide updates box. I just can’t seem to get the results everyone else is getting. I’m positive I’m doing it right. I have already hid over twenty odds and ends of various other updates and it works great on them. Just never had a KB show up. Really weird.

            • #176492 Reply

              anonymous

              Okay, I was just want to be clear. Maybe you not seeing every KB entry could be a Microsoft error in your favor.

              Does anybody else think the Windows update cache is broken? If windows update cache is not really broken do not fix it, as linked below!

              If you want to see any of those KB patches, it is probably time to clean the Windows update cache.

              Here is a more complex guide here, and this other human says their method is better.

              1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #176457 Reply

          MrBrian
          AskWoody MVP

          Perhaps the KB updates were installed already?

          • #176461 Reply

            bobcat5536
            AskWoody Lounger

            I thought about that and when I check, they’re not. I always wait several weeks before installing any updates until Defcon 3 is given and sometimes later than that. I would think if something was blocking them that I wouldn’t see any at all. I got caught by the forced update to 1709 last week and it failed because I had all my updated NVIDEA drivers blocked. They showed before hand and I blocked them with wushowhide. Microsoft system updates will not show up.

            • #176464 Reply

              MrBrian
              AskWoody MVP

              If you’re willing to use Windows Update MiniTool, I wonder if KB updates are listed with it when you use it to check for updates.

            • #176480 Reply

              bobcat5536
              AskWoody Lounger

              Minitool looks promising…but I would still like to figure out why wushowhide is not working with MS KB’s on my system.

              Update:  I went ahead and ran the Minitool with the same results. It showed all the updates that I have hidden with wushowhide, but no Windows KB’s. I would think that it would have shown something from 3/13/18 or not ??

              • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  bobcat5536.
            • #176503 Reply

              MrBrian
              AskWoody MVP

              If you unhide a hidden update with wushowhide, will the next run of wushowhide show it to you as an unhidden update?

            • #176524 Reply

              bobcat5536
              AskWoody Lounger

              Yes….if I unhide one, it does show up on the next scan as unhidden and available.

            • #176528 Reply

              MrBrian
              AskWoody MVP

              Do you see any KB updates if you use Windows Update MiniTool with “Include superseded” ticked?

            • #176569 Reply

              bobcat5536
              AskWoody Lounger

              I just tried it with include superseded checked and get the same results, it doesn’t come up with anything. I also unhid several updates with wushowhide and then rescanned with Minitool and it brought them up, no problem. The only thing I can figure is that I must have something blocking those KB’s.

            • #176592 Reply

              MrBrian
              AskWoody MVP

              Perhaps an update that you hid is a prerequisite for the missing updates?

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #176600 Reply

              bobcat5536
              AskWoody Lounger

              All I have hidden is third party stuff like Brother printer, NVIDEA, stuff like that. I really appreciate your input, but it looks like I’m just going to have to keep up on my system images and wait for the Defcon number to go up each month. Thanks for all the help.

            • #176669 Reply

              MrBrian
              AskWoody MVP

              Another possibility is that Windows Update is blacklisting updates for your computer due to compatibility issues. How long has this issue with wushowhide been happening? What build of Windows 10 are you using now?

            • #176706 Reply

              bobcat5536
              AskWoody Lounger

              It’s a Dell XPS-8700, 2.5 years old and came with Windows 10. Currently on 1703 15063.936 dated 3/8/18. Been using wushowhide for about a year with always the same results. The forced updates last week to 1709 failed because I had hidden my NVIDEA updates and the sound and display were all borked. I put an image back on and I have since updated the drivers and checked all the other hardware for out of date drivers and made sure everything is up to date.

    • #176370 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Lounger

      I was going back over the feature improvements in the various versions of Win10, putting them in the book, and I had to really struggle to find anything good to say about 1709.

      Controlled folder access: A single switch for total protection against ransomware.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #176670 Reply

      CCRL2004
      AskWoody Lounger

      Everyone, I have trouble with dual monitor capability, which worked perfectly until KB 4090913

      KB 4088776 did not fix the problem, even though it seems that MS intended to fix problems “…. addresses issue to prevent media and other applications from becoming unresponsive or failing when upgrading graphics drivers”.

      I have identical problem on two separate computers, one desktop and one laptop. Both a couple of years old and both having functioned perfectly until 1709 and said patch. Needless to say; both updated with all available patches.

      Curious thing though; I bring these with me between two separate work places with two different sets of monitor. The monitors at the two different work places have different resolutions. Workplace A has 1) 1024 x 768 and 2) 1280 x 960 and WPL-B has 1) 1920 x 1080 and 2) 1920 x 1080. Now, when computers are connected to monitors at WPL-A all returns to normal – seems like computers recognize this as some kind of default position. When connected at WPL-B dual monitor capability is lost all together. Both monitors work though and I can switch between them by showing one or the other individually. The thing is that moving the computers between the two workplaces and having full and fail-free use of all available monitor settings worked perfectly until KB 4090913.

      I have tried reinstalling newest drivers for both graphics card and screens to no avail.

      So how do I make MS aware of this problem if they aren’t already?

      Edit to remove HTML from copy/paste.

      Please remember to use the ‘text’ tab in the post entry box when you copy/paste.

      • #176709 Reply

        MrBrian
        AskWoody MVP

        You could try leaving feedback by clicking “Yes” or “No” for “Did this solve your problem?,” which results in a “Tell us what we can do to improve the article” textbox.

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

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