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When do you prefer a reboot?
Posted on Comment on the AskWoody Lounge- This topic has 51 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 1 month, 3 weeks ago.
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https://twitter.com/ariaupdated/status/1357387308853465090 Notice that never is not an option 🙂 Do you like them a. Overnight when not in use
[See the full post at: When do you prefer a reboot?]Susan Bradley Patch Lady
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Windows 10 1909 and 2004
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I have two home desktops and they are always switched off at night, and when there’s no-one in during the day. So overnight updating/restarting is out of the question for me, and in any event I strongly favour being in front of a computer when it is restarted in order to pick up on any issues or error messages. So I much prefer restarts when I click on them.
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I have to tell you I was very surprised to be taken off site to a twitter page that seemed to have little to do with “AskWoody” when I submitted my answer (when I tell it to)
I don’t have a Twitter account. When I worked my way back to Ask Woody I noticed the exact same question below the one that took me offsite, I haven’t tried that one and probably won’t take the chance.
As long as I’m here though I would mention that ever since yesterday’s updates my desktop icons come back reset to “Large” every time I reboot, it’s happened twice now so I’m guessing it will keep happening until MS figures out what they did wrong 🙂
Have a great day -
Since I have all my updates (windows, et al) are set to be manually downloaded/installed, I am always here awaiting a successful reboot. Definition of successful? No BSOD, and all applications work as they did before. Although many would caution me against the practice, I also manually download and install my (third party) internet security/AV app. When I’m away from the computer, I block the internet connection anyway.
"Censorship is thought control" ----- Ronald Reagan
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I always turn off my computers when not in use. I do not sleep or hibernate my computers ever. I select when I update my computers and then reboot (twice) and then check that everything is working properly. A monthly update from microsoft can take about 2 hours. on my linux mint 20.1 machine it is done and dusted in 15 minutes max.
mbhelwig
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I also turn my systems completely off at the end of the day and restart fresh each day. If I’m not using one of my computers, it’s generally “off” and disconnected from the web.
My entire main system is powered through a UPS (uninterruptible power supply) which I also turn off at the end of each day. I’ve removed the sleep and hibernate options from the systems as well. When it’s off, it’s off.
Basically, I’m always at the keyboard whenever updates, restarts, software installation/updates, etc., are happening. Of course, I’m no longer in a business-use scenario.
Win10 Pro x64 20H2, Win10 Home 20H2, Linux Mint + a cat with 'tortitude'.
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So every time you turn one on, not having been previously put to sleep or hibernated, it must do a full reboot?
If I am away from the PC for a short while (lunch, gone down the street etc.) I put it to sleep. This ensures rapid return to whatever I was working on when I return. At the end of the day, or when away for an extended time, I hibernate. Once the disk activity light goes out, I then turn the power off at the wall. This still allows rapid wake from hibernation at the next start.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit 20H2
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For me this question has an easy answer : Only when I want or need to. Absolutely no automatic or scheduled restart.
I only turn on my computers when I need to. Like some others, I shutdown all my computers and associated equipment (e.g. routers) at night when I go to sleep. Updates are done manually at a time I decide, automatic updates are completely disabled (Windows 7 / Windows 8.1 / Windows 10 LTSC (Testing purposes only) / MacOS).
Even my iPhones are all switched off at night. This saves power and then I don’t need to charge them so often.
Only when I need to download something that requires a long time (which is rare now) do I leave my computer and router on throughout the night. Otherwise I see no point in leaving any of them on when at night or when I am inactive.
Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.
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Only when I click restart, and only when I specifically want to update. Over the past few months with online learning there have been numerous incidents of my instructors encountering an irritating, show-stopping issue that prompts them to restart, but the restart takes half an hour because Windows 10 wanted to update. In the Ye Olde Days of Windows XP, Windows would allow you to shut down the computer without installing updates, so that if you needed to restart to fix a problem, you could be back up and running quickly and be able to install updates at a later time. Now, Windows will happily install the updates when you click “Restart” even if you just wanted to restart to fix a problem. I install updates over the weekend and when nothing critical is scheduled, not during the middle of a workday.
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Exactly my thoughts.
I have had Windows 10 pull that several times (though I have since installed Windows Update Blocker to prevent a recurrence). I use Linux (KDE Neon User Edition, specifically) as my main OS, and Windows 10 is only on my Swift and my G3 laptops (dual boot setup) because I do occasionally want to test something in Windows to see how it differs (or does not) with Linux, like when I was doing the laptop battery life tests.
Very often, when I boot to Windows, it is only my intent to be there for a moment to check something that I can’t do in my Windows virtual machine, then to return to Linux. Of course, if Windows has decided it wants to update, the only options are “Update and reboot” or “Update and shut down.” It’s very annoying not to be offered the option of just rebooting, as I had no intention of having a half hour of down time when I decided to briefly jump over to Windows for a moment.
In that case, I just force the PC off in disgust and boot back to Linux when it comes back up. If the installation gets damaged, so be it. When I discover the issue the next time I try to boot Windows, I’ll decide then whether to fix it or just remove the Windows partition and increase the size of my Linux partitions by that amount.
This is one of many reasons I am on Linux in the first place. This kind of thing just really ticks me off! It’s an example of how MS fails to respect that the PC is mine to do with as I please, including the simple things like shutting down or rebooting (and nothing else) when I want to. Every previous version of Windows got this right, but not Windows 10.
There have been numerous anecdotes like yours… people in a business setting preparing to begin a Powerpoint presentation from their laptop, only to have the thing decide it’s not “you” time, it’s Microsoft time, so all of you business people who expected to see the presentation and then to get back to their busy days, have a seat and wait for Windows to finish its thing, while the others glance at their watches and you try to make nervous small talk.
Now, of course, there are things you can do to prevent this, setting up active hours and stuff like that, but I should not need to reserve “me” time on my own hardware (and even if I do, I can still be negatively impacted if others don’t, like in your example). It’s always “me” time on hardware I own, and there are 24 of those active hours each day… but MS won’t let you select that.
Of course, by the time you see that it has decided to update, it’s too late to tell it “no, these are active hours.”
If Windows handled updates as Linux does, this would not be an issue. Windows and Linux are similar in the way they perform the first stage of updating as far as the impact to the user goes, where you can continue to work as it goes on in the background. It’s after that point when Windows needs to shut down so that it can finish the process that is the problem. You can’t do anything with it until it’s done, and that can be a lengthy wait. That’s why the option to “update and reboot” should be there right alongside “reboot.”
In Linux, though, once that first stage is done, all that remains to be done is a normal reboot (or not even that, depending on what was updated). It shuts down as quickly as it usually does, and then it boots back up as fast as it usually does. There’s no need for an “update and reboot” option. That would be a great addition to Windows, as it would solve this issue.
Group "L" (KDE Neon Linux 5.21.4 User Edition)
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Never forget that updates just change software with known bugs out for software with unknown bugs. Somewhat known exploits traded for (possibly worse) unknown exploits. And almost certainly worse performance – by the people who profit by selling you new hardware.
I for one am not driven by “OMG, your computer is insecure! Do {this} right away to make it secure!” That is the worst, most manipulative motivation for doing something Marketing-kind has ever developed.
It is not secure, it will never be secure. You must weigh risks. You must be smart.
And not to mention that there are ways of making it far MORE secure than the “tried and true” ways that the OS makers would have you follow.
I never turn my computer off, and I do many, many things with my computer systems, 24/7. Backups and builds run in the middle of the night. And the least of EVERYTHING I do is more important than the MOST important thing Microsoft wants me to do.
And let’s examine the pretense that “Never is not an option”…
Expectations of reboot have downsides! For example: If the software designers expect regular reboots, and even FORCE it, where’s the incentive to make a software system that doesn’t REQUIRE it? Remember all the systems before Windows NT (and even a few releases of NT)?
A mature operating system is one that can run forever without disruption. “Never” NEEDS to be an option. It is entirely possible. It should be a goal. It was once a goal.
-Noel
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With all due respect, mature Windows OSs have existed. Only policy prevents that from becoming true now.
I’d love to see a new version or update of Windows actually enhance performance. Unfortunately, I have solid evidence of the opposite: I have been benchmarking, and I have kept all the results. Lo and behold in the last decade we’ve reached a stage where the software has become less efficient at a rate that has completely overwhelmed the advancements in hardware to do the very same things. Why? Because all those “updates” that people are being conditioned to expect gradually degrade performance.
Case in point:
I bought, in 2013, a then high-end Dell workstation built on dual Xeon x5690 processors, 1333 MHz ECC DDR3 RAM, PCIe 2.0 buss, with a RAID array of SSDs, ATI Radeon 7850 GPU, running Win 7. At the end of 2013 I upgraded it to Win 8.1, which I kept updated. In 2017 the ATI GPU card was replaced with a nVidia Quadro P2000.
In 2020 I put together a second workstation built on the same technology as the above with only minor variations and put a fresh copy of Windows 10 on it. It immediately showed a degradation in almost every category (enough to actually feel it) – proving Windows 10 was FAR less efficient than its predecessors.
In January 2021 I replaced the entire system with a modern high-end Dell workstation built on dual modern Xeons, 2666 MHz ECC DDR4 RAM, PCIe 3.0 buss, a RAID array of NVMe drives, a nVidia Quadro RTX GPU, now running Windows 10. Hardware specs at least double the 2013 model.
On these systems I have run the very same benchmark tests, one part of which tests a system’s capability of displaying things via the Windows interface on the monitors. Those results, across nearly a decade, show that objectively, my newest hardware running Windows 10 is actually slightly worse at displaying things on the desktop than my very first build in 2013. Something is very wrong with that!
I have had to upgrade my hardware to a system with specs more than twice as powerful to just get back to near the desktop performance I enjoyed in 2013.
-Noel
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We are still running several Windows 7 machines and are finding that they are more stable then their Windows 10 brethren.
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My question for that statement is, why are you running Windows 10 instead of one of those mature Windows OS’s?
In enterprise, we are driven by management, thus we have simpy no other option, but update; because otherwise its considered as outdated and dangerous. Auditors will cut you to the peices, if you run W7 in automotive today.
For home computing, I use happilly GNU/Linux Fedora and I miss nothing.Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 1809 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
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Thank you for your detailed research, Noel. I would like to agree with your statements.
I have interesing experience with SW performance on W7 and on W10.Old PC was Dell Precision T3610
New PC is Dell Precision T5820The new one should be cutting edge of technology.
Intel Xeon W-2223 (4C 3.6GHz 3.9GHz Turbo HT 8.25MB 120W DDR4-2666MHz)
32GB DDR4 2666 MHz
PCI NVMe SSDIt cost more than 2000 EUR and the performance is worse.
Loading this CAD application takes like 2 times more than before on the old W7.The only thing thats faster on the new PC is “multitasking”, where I can click everything and PC is still fast and responsive. But for single task, the computer is very very disapointing.
And why did we do that? because… the dictate of the mighty as Noel wrote above..
I for one am not driven by “OMG, your computer is insecure! Do {this} right away to make it secure!” That is the worst, most manipulative motivation for doing something Marketing-kind has ever developed.
Same with O365, where its still the same Ofiice 2007, but with new interface and more bloat, so microsoft can sell it as a brand new product. Prove me wrong.
Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 1809 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
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I concur. I did not feel welcomed by this site not having the option to answer ‘never’. Perhaps ‘rarely’ or only when something happens that requires a reboot. I never turn off my pc. And I feel the new management here is losing touch with some of us and paying too much fealty to the crowd mentality of security at any cost and for every reason.
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This site was just asking for opinions, and did offer a button for other – where you could have put in never.
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I don’t care generally for recent versions of Avast Antivirus, but one feature they have that I like is that when they request a reboot to complete some update to their program, one of the choices for when to reboot is “sometime next century.” 🙂
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Yes, you are right, and thanks for that clarification. Not sure how I got that misattributed, but it is!
Group "L" (KDE Neon Linux 5.21.4 User Edition)
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The only time I restart is when patches land and needs a restart, outwith my control.
However with linux devices, I only reboot when a kernel update is required, my choice since forever. I also switch off and unplug devices when not in use and a night.1 user thanked author for this post.
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Microsoft is pushing even harder for enterprises to apply and reboot outside of active hours. They’ve incorporated it recently in their security baselines:
I’ve commented to check the delay restart until grace period expires. This give the user the option to choose when to reboot. If they ignore it for a predetermined time (for our network, it’s 2 days), the system will then reboot.
This is a hybrid solution, and seems to work well. Users have some say, it’s only if they delay two long (pun intended), is the choice made for them.
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The registry is read when an app / Windows wants to read it. No need to reboot for most things to update their settings.
A reboot post update install is to copy the new files into place so that Windows can use them – this can’t be done when they are in use.
cheers, Paul
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… the registry is always accessible and programs can read it and refresh their settings anytime.
From one who plunders around in and edits the registry a great deal, your statement is not correct. The registry hives are in \System32\config, and a couple of volatile hives that exist only in memory and are rebuilt afresh on startup.
Some registry changes can indeed be immediately effective, and some registry changes will only take effect after a reboot.
Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!"When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns"Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware
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There’s an excellent answer about why Windows needs to reboot so often on Forbes, from Mark Phaedrus, Software Engineer at Microsoft. Here’s a link to the article:
Why Does Windows Require A Restart After Installing Updates?
In short, it involves Shadow copy. Mark also goes into why Linux can go longer without reboots than Windows or iOS:
Linux is the big outlier; a Linux box can typically update anything except the kernel without a reboot, and some variants can even apply kernel updates without rebooting. Linux had its origins in Unix, and Unix was designed as a multi-user OS from the very start, unlike most other PC operating systems (which started as single-user OSes and may have had multiuser features grafted on later), and unlike phone OSes (which are almost always single-user). Largely because of that need for simultaneous multi-user support, Unix (and Linux) was designed with more layers of isolation, abstraction, and security that separate programs from each other, separate programs from the OS, and separate OS components from each other. This layered approach imposes some significant performance penalties; but since it was vital for the way the systems would be used, the designers of Unix (and Linux) were willing and able to pay those penalties in order to get the security and maintenance benefits. As a result of that design, just about any component of a Unix (or Linux) system can be updated without a reboot. And now that CPUs are so much more capable than they used to be, and most PCs don’t use all the CPU power they have, this decision really shines — the performance penalty no longer really matters, and Linux has a great advantage on this point.
So, Microsoft is in a box…they really need to re-design the OS to take care of several issues (the registry is a flat file that has no place in a modern OS) to resolve the reboot issue, but can’t because of the backwards compatibility issue. Also, since Windows 10 is not a major revenue generator now, there likely isn’t any incentive for MS to spend the money necessary to do that.
The reboot is still a MAJOR issue for institutions. For example, I used to work for IT in a hospital, and we had to go through all sorts of hoops to prevent desktop PC’s (many of which were running medical devices) from forcing reboots during procedures. And yes, I know there are remote policies to prevent this, but they weren’t 100% effective. The other issue was having to schedule reboots (we normally scheduled them once a month, on an early Sunday morning, between midnight and 4 am. Verification usually kept us up until breakfast time!!)
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An excerpt from the Forbes excerpt above, posted by @johnf:
Linux is the big outlier; a Linux box can typically update anything except the kernel without a reboot, and some variants can even apply kernel updates without rebooting.
Linux is not Unix, but it’s pretty close, and was built on the same principles.
Group "L" (KDE Neon Linux 5.21.4 User Edition)
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