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  • When should you move on to the next Win10 version?

    Home Forums AskWoody blog When should you move on to the next Win10 version?

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    This topic contains 81 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  rc primak 8 months, 1 week ago.

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    • #177226 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      Just got a note from Noel Carboni: Let’s say I’m a small business owner and further let’s say I’d like to use Windows 10 Pro because Enterprise licens
      [See the full post at: When should you move on to the next Win10 version?]

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #177230 Reply

      zero2dash
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m legitimately worried about this right now, and I feel like I’m on the edge of the cliff.
      6 months ago, I was a total Win10 avoider and I didn’t like it. I planned on running my 7 image until the wheels fell off, at which case I’d clean install 7 again, update it, install nothing but Steam and VirtualBox, and use Steam for games and VirtualBox (which would then run a flavor of Ubuntu) for everything else, with practically every available hardware resource being passed through to it.

      Then I started a new job at a mid/large company which was already 90% through the 7 > 10 conversion, with gen pop systems on 1511 and IT (my bailywick) on 1703, behind SCCM/WSUS.

      I grew to love 1703. And I flashed it at home over all my 7 machines, after doing full images of course (in case of a change of mind). Initially, I locked down 1703 and refused 1709. Defer upgrades, delay updates, the whole nine yards. After awhile, I kinda threw my arms up and caved. 1709 installed fine, and I’ve had no issues with it either (same as with 1703). I’m now in Group A, I let my machines install updates as they come. (I give the proverbial “deaf ear”, for the most part.)

      But now I’m on that edge. I make daily backups with Veeam Endpoint on all my machines, but now I’m trying to figure out where I go from here. I’m hesitant to upgrade to 1803 within the next few weeks, because let’s face it, a broken watch is right 2 times a day – surely MS can’t keep their stride and pull off the improbable 3 times. So where do I go from here? Lock down 1709 and fret at least once a month over updates again? If I do that, I’m basically back to square 1 and no better off than I was with 7, where I also had to fret over updates at least once a month – only then, 7 didn’t sneak things in and try to install updates (or anything else) without asking my permission. And if I do lock it down, who’s to say the lock isn’t magically picked behind my back, and updates installed automatically by the SatNad in the sky?

      So now, I’m almost on a ledge of a ledge. Do I stick with 10, and if I do, in what capacity?
      Or should I just go back to 7? Or, possibly 8.1, which at this point, isn’t a bad OS either (and has the benefit of being updated for a few more years past 7’s expiration date)?

      Cloudy times ahead, my fellow geeks.

      11 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177244 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        My experience with actually trying to stabilize Win 10 in its various renditions since it came out has shown me that it’s really not been “ready for prime time” until CBB. I recommend you wait, if you care about system quality.

        For me 1703 was the first that couldn’t last its entire 6 month “lifespan”, and more recently my 1709 config has also reached an unserviceable state – kind of amazing in that I actually don’t do all that much with them. I have a feeling that nursing them through their early phases is what led to the failures.

        I WOULD NOT CONSIDER trying to base any real work on the first releases of new “builds/versions”, and it’s even growing quite tiring to try to get to know them in throwaway virtual environments before they’ve been stabilized.

        Having been with Windows since the beginning, having gotten good service out of Vista on high end workstations, and enjoying trouble-free “it just works” operation from Win 8.1 for nearly 5 years now, I know that there’s merit in keeping current. If I plan to continue to market products for Windows I’ll need to do more than just run it in a VM. Hence the questions here.

        -Noel

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #177245 Reply

        Susan Bradley
        AskWoody MVP

        Don’t do 1803 when it comes out.  The first few weeks you will be rebooting multiple times a month as additional patches get pushed out for fixes.  When the new kid on the block comes out is the sign to move to the old kid from wherever you are at.  So if you are on 1703, move to 1709 next month.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

        10 users thanked author for this post.
        • #177422 Reply

          JohnW
          AskWoody Lounger

          Still hanging with 1703 on my main desktop.  Thanks for the reminder!  I just downloaded the Windows 10 installation media for 1709.  Gotta get it while the getting is good!  😉

          I forgot to download 1703 media, so I still have a laptop stuck on 1511.  Once 1709 got released MS only offered the downloads for 1709 from that point.  I would have updated it to 1703, but I waited a bit too long…

    • #177231 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody MVP

      I presume an occasional search or spotting an announcement that a particular “version/build” of Windows 10 has reached the “Semi-Annual Channel” could be a cue to start looking seriously at upgrading. Then the typical “try it on a test system, etc.” for suitability can occur. Here we are in March 2018 waiting for a good solid answer on “is it suitable”… But beyond that…

      Sure, I know Microsoft wants us all to use Windows Update to get the software, and they treat it as though every version they release is worth having, so what’s the problem?

      Just taking what they deliver when it first becomes available will never be the method of choice for some. Call me old fashioned, but I’d like to control the process and know the specifics before I execute. My business is at stake.

      The Microsoft “Windows 10 release information” page doesn’t identify versions, nor do the links lead directly to download locations…

      So this time the questions boil down to:

      • Exactly what “build” of Windows 10 v1709 reached the “Semi-Annual Channel on July 27, 2017”?
      • Possibly more importantly, where can a specific ISO file that represents a current, updated Windows 10 be downloaded from?

      Am I just being obtuse? I actually DID Google this stuff. Why are these questions even the slightest bit difficult to answer?

      -Noel

      4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177311 Reply

        anonymous

        No you are not being obtuse, you are being normal trying understand a now purposely obtuse company.

    • #177233 Reply

      b
      AskWoody Lounger

      I can’t see you being mute about it at any point.

      (The glib answer is correct; the small business I support has had 150 x Windows 10 Pro on 1709 for months with hardly any issues; an occasional stuck update, but nothing to cause updater’s remorse.)

      Cannon fodder Chump Daft glutton Idiot Sucker More intrepid Crazy/ignorant "Toxic drinker"

      4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177241 Reply

        zero2dash
        AskWoody Lounger

        We’ve definitely had more issues with our 1511 machines, with random issues (mainly stuck Start buttons which is a known bug). Our 1703’s have been solid as a rock, and we really haven’t had many issues with WU as far as I know. We’ve had more luck trying to CYA with the Spectre/Meltdown stuff which MS has flip flopped on so much at this point they look like Mrs. Butterworth or Aunt Jemima.

        I know our primary SCCM builder/guru has already been testing 1709 builds for months now, so I’d imagine we’ll be upgrading all our 1511’s and 1703’s to 1709 within the next 9 months (though technically we’re on Enterprise so 1511 would continue to get updates regardless).

        I think (in my case) I came in the long tail end of 1703 and by the time 1709 had grown past its incubation point, I installed it, hence, no issues. I’ve done a lot of thinking about this since last week (and last patch Tuesday) and I think I’m going to go ahead and re-implement my deferrals and delay periods so when 1803 does [expectedly] drop in a few weeks, I won’t have any new surprises to contend with.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177516 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody MVP

        FWIW, I think the word Woody was looking for is “moot”.

        -- rc primak

    • #177240 Reply

      Susan Bradley
      AskWoody MVP

      You need to be off 1607 (it goes out of support in April)

      You need to be on 1703 or 1709.  If you are a deployment shop you want to pick 1709 because the scripts to deploy are better in 1709 versus 1703.  Semi-annual is the “new” CBB.

      Unless you are a volume license customer the only iso you have access to right now is 1709.  Download it and park it.  https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10   When 180X comes out, that page will be updated.

      It was 1703 that was declared CBB/Semi Annual in July – https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/07/27/windows-10-creators-update-fully-available-for-all-windows-10-customers/#7I7xWGW6yK36hQ30.97   1709 wasn’t released yet.

      https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows-10/release-information

      Susan Bradley Patch Lady

      7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177246 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Unless you are a volume license customer the only iso you have access to right now is 1709. Download it and park it. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10 When 180X comes out, that page will be updated.

        What build is that ISO? The thing is to avoid having to patch a .0 version. Based on my experience “cumulative updates” are not as simple nor straightforward as they sound.

        -Noel

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #177278 Reply

          EyesOnWindows
          AskWoody Lounger

          Whether you download the 1709 ISO directly by setting browser User Agent string to a non-windows OS or use the download tool you always get same thing, Version 1709 (OS Build 16299.125). The recent forced update of 1703 is just an automated run of that download tool. Note that only the current patches downloaded after installing and going online are actually applied. All of the 700 MB of patch downloaded twice beforehand during the install process are ignored. This means you are running an unpatched OS during the patch process.

          HP Compaq 6000 Pro SFF PC / Windows 10 Pro / 1803
          Intel®Core™2 “Wolfdale” E8400 3.0 GHz / 4.00 GB
          EyesOnWindows

          2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177257 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Just to underscore how unserviceable my v1709 test system has become since installing it as an in-place upgrade at 16299.whatever was first, then updating it carefully over the past 6 months to 16299.251, note that even the Media Creation Tool, when run on it, now simply refuses to progress past this point…

        MediaCreationToolFailure

        On my Win 7 or 8.1 system, this real confidence booster of a message is emitted by that same MediaCreationTool.exe…

        ScreenGrab_W81EVM_2018_03_20_163335

        Such fun!

        -Noel

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        4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #177268 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody MVP

          I am not without my resources and capabilities…

          I finally did get the Media Creation Tool to work, and download the latest ISO. Had to do it on a Win 7 system. It’s about 400 MB bigger than the one I downloaded back in October. Now to figure out just what’s in it. Sigh.

          -Noel

          • #177289 Reply

            Noel Carboni
            AskWoody MVP

            Most of the files in the ISO are dated September 29, 2017. Several are dated December 14, 2017. However, the big install.esd and boot.wim files from within the ISO are dated right to the time I downloaded the image (this afternoon at 5:27 pm). I didn’t know they built the content of the .ISO file on the fly.

            -Noel

            • #177314 Reply

              Susan Bradley
              AskWoody MVP

              The goal is that at most you only need two/three patches to be fully patched.  The ISO up there is built when they deemed 1709 to be CBB/Semi Annual declaration date.

              What about controlled folder access/anti-ransomware features that were put in this edition?  Man there was/is a lot of security stuff put in 1709.  Stuff that can be used in standalone deployments.  Blog post time 🙂

              Susan Bradley Patch Lady

              3 users thanked author for this post.
            • #177317 Reply

              Noel Carboni
              AskWoody MVP

              As an exercise, I restored an image of my old v1703 build 15063 from just before I retired it for 16299, then installed today’s ISO as an in-place upgrade. That brought it directly to 16299.125 and – wonder of wonders – immediately succeeded a Windows update to…

              ScreenGrab_W10VM_2018_03_20_231103

              Now, that would be acceptable. It’s just that awful actually USING Windows in between that messes it up I guess. 🙂

              Regarding Controlled Folder Access / Anti-Ransomware…

              Not sure why someone who actually controls what they run on their computer would want to protect it from themselves. That kind of silly stuff just gets in the way of getting things done.

              -Noel

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            • #177333 Reply

              Susan Bradley
              AskWoody MVP

              Really smart people get attacked every day.  Ransomware often comes in via phishing emails that are targeted to entice you to click.

              Susan Bradley Patch Lady

              1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #177479 Reply

          JohnW
          AskWoody Lounger

          I got an error like that using 1703 when my firewall blocked an outbound connection request from ‘Modern Setup Host’ (setuphost.exe).

          Had to open up the firewall for that task, quit and restart the Media Creation Tool, and all was well.  Got the download for 1709 that way, loaded onto a USB stick.

           

      • #177437 Reply

        EP
        AskWoody MVP

        well Susan the Home & Pro editions of Win10 v1607 will be out of support in April 2018, except for a small subset of users who are using Netbooks with Intel Atom “Clover Trail” or “Cloverview” processors (which btw, are 32bit x86-only CPUs). those machines with those specific Intel Atom CPUs don’t support the 1703 & higher releases of Win10 and will continue to receive updates for the 1607 release beyond April 2018 until 2023.

        http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-agrees-to-extend-support-deadline-for-clover-trail-pcs/

        • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  EP.
    • #177243 Reply

      Mr. Natural
      AskWoody Lounger

      Most of our W10 users are still on 1703. I have a half dozen or so running 1709 including myself. The only problem I’ve run across is Windows Update becomes broken sometimes and I’ve had to reset the WU Catalog. Usually after a version upgrade it would occur. It seems to me Windows Update has always been broken or acts strange but seems to be working better with each new revision. When I first used 1511 it wouldn’t even communicate with WSUS properly. If you follow the recommendations here and do not install updates as soon as they are released chances are things will be (fairly) ok.

      I’m going to skip pushing 1709 to the rest of our systems and wait for 1803. I’ll wait a week or so after it’s release and then will install on my pc. After a few days I’ll push it to my department co-workers and see how that goes. After that I push to a few employees which shall we say wouldn’t be a crisis if it screwed something up.

      A few weeks after that I may start pushing the upgrade to all. Depends on how comfortable I am with how things have gone.

      One thing I’m not sure of and perhaps someone could clarify. If a company wanted to start upgrading computers to Windows 10 and did not have any media, they would need to download the media creation tool. When you download that you’re stuck with whatever is the current version of Windows 10. So if you downloaded now and used you’d be stuck with 1709. You couldn’t install 1703. Correct?

      BTW – I can confirm you can still install windows 10 on a system that originally came with Windows 7. You use the Windows 7 product key sticker on the computer to activate Windows 10 and it will activate.

       

      Looks like Susan confirmed my media tool question. Thanks!

      • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  Mr. Natural. Reason: added
      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177528 Reply

        SkipH
        AskWoody Lounger

        @ Mr. Natural:

        Mr. Natural said on 3-20-18:

        “If a company wanted to start upgrading computers to Windows 10 and did not have any media, they would need to download the media creation tool…..”

        There’s a utility located at:

        https://www.heidoc.net/joomla/technology-science/microsoft/67-microsoft-windows-and-office-iso-download-tool

        that you can use to download an ISO of any particular version of Windows 10 that you want to install. It can be used to install that version (provided you have a valid license activation code). The current version is 5.29. I just tested it and it locates and will download 1703, or 1709, directly from a legitimate Microsoft site.

        The installation should be done with the system NOT connected to the internet in any way, so that it doesn’t try to update itself before you get control of it.

        You can find the KB number of what ever sub-version you want to update to on this web page:

        https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-info.aspx

        Scroll down the page to find the KB#’s for the various Win10 ‘builds’, EG: 1703, 1607, etc.

        Once you have the KB number, go to the MS Update Catalog web site, put that number in the Search box in the upper right-hand corner of the screen, then download it and install it with your system off-line so there won’t be any conflict with Windows Update trying to jam one on while you do it manually.

        When your system re-boots, you should be on the sub-version you want. At that time, take what ever steps you are using to block/delay any auto-updates from MS.

        This is how I catch up ‘new’ referbed systems I get for clients…they usually come with some OLD version of Win10 on them, and doing it manually is the fastest way to catch them up. Also to catch up client systems that got stuck on some older version, EG: one client system that I worked on last month has only a satellite connection, was way behind on major versions, so I just did a manual ‘upgrade’ from an ISO downloaded from MS, then updated it with the current version KB number.

        Hope this helps.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #177236 Reply

      anonymous

      Never.

      What the heck is the point of upgrading when you have to repeat that nail-biting procedure in six months time again?!

      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #177253 Reply

      Zaphyrus
      AskWoody Lounger

      Sorry everyone but I think I will skip Windows 1709,  I will wait for 1803 to be stable enough and approved by Mr.Woody,  after all 1703 will be supported the whole summer, lets hope it is stable enough by september.

      Just someone who don't want Windows to mess with its computer.
      • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  Zaphyrus.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #177517 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody MVP

        And what if that never happens? 1803 might never totally stabilize either. Then what will all of us here do?

        -- rc primak

    • #177255 Reply

      radosuaf
      AskWoody Lounger

      In the meantime people on W7/W8.1 are just doing their boring usual stuff… 😉

      MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
      • #177260 Reply

        Zaphyrus
        AskWoody Lounger

        at least your only worry are good/bad updates and you dont have to deal with feature updates.

        Just someone who don't want Windows to mess with its computer.
      • #177320 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        In the meantime people on W7/W8.1 are just doing their boring usual stuff…

        Like running the Windows 10 media creation tool when Windows 10 itself can’t handle it, as Noel reported? It took the old, “obsolete” Windows 7 to come to the rescue of its supposed replacement…

         

        Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.4 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

        • #177353 Reply

          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          I’ve used MS operating systems since MS-DOS 3.30. Back then, just configuring the system to run the game I wanted on a 1 MB RAM 286 machine was a challenge. Then there came Windows 95 that was (supposed to be) Plug & Play but still needed lots of hassle to get things working, then Windows XP that opened the whole new world to me. I remember many “tweaking guides” read and messing here and there. And maybe it even helped. W7 was basically OK, just needed a few things to be ironed out after installation. And finally Windows 8.1 that is just installed, needs one PowerShell command (remove all Metro apps), a few minor tweaks, all in all 5 minutes max and then it just WORKS. Most hassle-free system I’ve EVER had. Maybe with some poor design choices, but still the best OS Microsoft did. And then comes W10 that needs A LOT after an install and then MS messes with all the work you did for YOUR system to suit your liking every 6 months… Seriously, that’s not how it should work.

          Back in the early days, it was fun to spend time on keeping your machine running smoothly. But I’m not 17 anymore and now I just want it to run the way I want without my intervention.

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
          3 users thanked author for this post.
          • #177851 Reply

            MrJimPhelps
            AskWoody MVP

            I always thought that Windows 2000 was the best, most stable version of Windows ever done, till Windows 7 came out. I would rank Windows 7 the best, with Windows 2000 a close second.

            Windows 8.1 could have been the best, if they would have given you the option of switching between the hideous “metro” interface and a Windows 7 style interface.

            Group "L" (Linux Mint)
            with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
            1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #177293 Reply

      NetDef
      AskWoody Lounger

      We’re sticking to Pro 1703 for a bit longer too, for the same reasons that Woody outlined in the OP.  As of right now, all our systems are patched to Version 1703 – Build 15063.909.  You may note that that build is a month behind . . . and we are able to keep that consistent across all the domains I maintain, as well as stand alone systems.  Reading other posts, it appears we have been very fortunate to not be stuck by the preemptive upgrade to 1709 against our settings bug.

      For most of them we are controlling this via AD-GP.  Here is what those settings look like without using GP.  Picture worth more words than I have energy to type right now:

      W10_1703_GP_Emulated_Settings

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      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #177298 Reply

      Jonathan Handler
      AskWoody Lounger

      IIRC, my main reasons right now for waiting on Windows 10 Pro Version 1709 are 1) the “placeholders” feature that was added to OneDrive for Business and the granularity of the privacy permissions that comes with this version.

      Jonathan

    • #177296 Reply

      anonymous

      The folks at Microsoft will have to come back down to reality sooner or later. While not yet ready for prime time, the upcoming Windows 1803 release seems to offer some relief so one might consider to hop on a few months after 1803 got released. Maybe the 2nd half of this year (when Microsoft ships Windows Server 2019 [built on 1803]) is a good time to move on.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177300 Reply

        Zaphyrus
        AskWoody Lounger

        that’s exactly what i am planning to do, jump from 1703 to 1803 when its stable.

        Just someone who don't want Windows to mess with its computer.
    • #177302 Reply

      EP
      AskWoody MVP

      hi woody.

      Check out this article from Softpedia titled “Is the ‘New Microsoft’ Becoming the ‘Old Microsoft’ Again?”:

      http://news.softpedia.com/news/is-the-new-microsoft-becoming-the-old-microsoft-again-520277.shtml

      after reading that Softpedia news article, it makes me think whether I should upgrade to the newer Win10 release or not.

      edit: also this Thurrott.com article (premium members only):
      https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/154446/heres-whats-really-happening-windows-10

      • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  EP.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #177307 Reply

        Zaphyrus
        AskWoody Lounger

        if it werent for the fact that we are in constant threat of being out of support. no one who is aware of the feature update mess would upgrade.

        Just someone who don't want Windows to mess with its computer.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #177315 Reply

        Susan Bradley
        AskWoody MVP

        Except he used an Office VL patch and a Windows 7 patch in two of his update arguments.  Both of which are irrelevant to the Windows 10 point he was trying to make.  What he should have gone after was the inaccessible boot device/USB errors of January and February.

        Susan Bradley Patch Lady

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #177322 Reply

        Ascaris
        AskWoody MVP

        There never was a new Microsoft.  Those from an outside perspective saw MS making overtures toward other platforms and inferred that this was something new, but it was more of a shift in Microsoft seeing users of other platforms as potential customers (for its cloud services) rather than Windows licenses that could have been.  They’re just as aggressive as ever, and just as likely to violate any given standard of ethics if it supports their bottom line.  They’ve merely changed their point of aim from Windows competitors to Windows users.

        Also… can we please put that “fake news” about Ballmer calling Linux a cancer to rest?  He likened the GNU license that Linux uses to a cancer, attaching itself to everything it touches, requiring derivative works to also be released under the GNU license, including the source code.  Ballmer is not alone in thinking this (I’d guess it’s why Apple’s MacOS is based on BSD Unix and not Linux), and it’s likely to be the intended effect of a license written by someone (Richard Stallman) who (by his own words) thinks that proprietary software as a whole is unethical.  You can see how that might rub a commercial software company the wrong way!

         

         

        Group L (Linux): KDE Neon User Edition 5.14.4 (based on Ubuntu 18.04) + Windows 7 in Virtualbox VM

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #177390 Reply

          hitokage
          AskWoody Lounger

          OS X is based on BSD because that’s what NeXTSTEP was based on, which predated Linux.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #177330 Reply

      dononline
      AskWoody Lounger

      Well, as a “seasoned citizen” whose wife still works part-time, and also serving as President of our Historic Neighborhood Association, and also sitting on the City Board of Historic and Architectural Review, we have three computers for use at home and travel: a desktop for real work, hitting MS Office, Adobe Acrobat and Internet Explorer for research and E-mail pretty hard, a large laptop to surf the Web, play a few light games, read news, books and Bible studies and such at home, and a small 2-in-1 for travel … and, yea, I’ll admit to plugging it into the Line In port on my boom box and listening to radio, everything from OTR, News-Talk, to music. Which means I have three Windows 10 computers to try to keep up, being the IT and Tech Guy and all.

      So, after spending from three to five hours, even when things go well, every month cleaning up, backing up, and updating these three computers, the very last thing I want is to spend an additional three to five hours upgrading every six months. I done got too old for that, especially after the nightmare of upgrading four computers (my sister-in-law was visiting with her laptop for almost six months after my father-in-law passed, right at upgrade time), two of which required bare-metal installs to get them back up and running, and two weeks or more of installing applications and researching “bugs” and how to fix them to get things back in working order.

      At any rate, if I’m seeing this thing strait, if I go from 1607 to 1709 in April, I’ll get MS support for 12 months. Better than six months, but still … if I jump right on the 1803 train in late April or early May, I’d have MS support for about 18 months, give or take a month. Better than 12 months, but still … would it be worth the pain of being an unpaid beta tester for, what, four months or so? And with 1709’s buggy updates history, would it really be any better than going 1803?  It should be, I know, but so far … Looks like I’ve got some thinking to do for the next couple of weeks. My plan has been to try and get on an 18-month upgrade cycle if possible. Right now I’m thinking bite the bullet and go 1803. If this WaaS train I’m riding goes off the rails as a result — well, it certainly won’t be the first mistake I’ve ever made. Your thoughts?

      • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  dononline.
      • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  dononline.
      • #177507 Reply

        anonymous

        I guess it’s safe to count on 1803 since it’s the base for the next LTSC (Long-Term Servicing Channel) release that is also the base for the upcoming Windows Server 2019 release. Just wait a bit (maybe a month or two) after 1803 got released so initial issues can be sorted out.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #177328 Reply

      anonymous

      Wait. There’s not even a way to upgrade to anything but the most recent version? You can’t upgrade only to 1709 once 1803 is out? That’s ridiculous. Heck, it’s just ensuring more problems, since you can’t have one target OS version to upgrade from.

      Microsoft seems to be run by people who heard of this whole rolling update “software as a service” paradigm but no actual experience in how to actually do it.

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #177360 Reply

        radosuaf
        AskWoody Lounger

        There is – either making backup of ISOs as they’re released or downloading from external sites (not MS). But officially, no – once the version is given a go, you can’t download older ones.

        MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
        • #177380 Reply

          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody MVP

          There is – either making backup of ISOs as they’re released or downloading from external sites (not MS). But officially, no – once the version is given a go, you can’t download older ones.

          And just to put a dot behind the sentence… I downloaded a copy yesterday (after way more futzing around than it should have required). It was v1709 build 16299.125, which immediately updated itself to 16299.309.

          -Noel

    • #177342 Reply

      AlexEiffel
      AskWoody MVP

      To me, a small business is one that doesn’t have IT support except the occasional visit or at least not a managed IT infrastructure with controlled updates and centralized  IT tools. I have a network of less than a hundred computers independently managed. We install once and keep the same tweaked OS until the machine dies often at least 8-10 years later if not more. We have a lot of machines not on the Internet. When a machine doesn’t get security no more, it joins the rank of those not on the Internet and its use is adapted. I am a security first, patch fully type of guy and I never delayed security patches before without any big issues until Win 10 came out and the Windows 7 group AB dilemma (W not being an option for Internet connected PCs).

      We have laptops for salesmen on the road that almost never touch our networks. So I like a set it and forget it approach with automatic patching for Windows and user software. It has worked extremely well for us over all the years until Win 10 arrived. We almost only spent time using IT to develop instead of doing maintenance. We have Unix servers that litterally requires less than 2 work days of maintenance a year. So we focus on business, all our computers are fast for what they do, much faster than many places our employees worked at, they say. They are clean and tuned for work only and they stay clean for years until their hardware blows up. Everybody is locked up tight. But I never get complaints about these aspects. People love their fast simple computers.

      We ran into a few issues over the years, but always minor, like when click-to-run office updates broke integration with Itunes. Now I must say it has been a while I don’t have click-to-run problems. I had a few before and it was annoying to realize Office was updated in the background and you can’t easily find and remove the bad patch and there is not much info about the issues and what updates are doing. Now, I don’t think or hear about it. We don’t use integrated Office things or Outlook for emails so we are not affected by many things.

      I myself was group B for a few months and unhappily switched to A hoping for the least worst. I don’t have time or interest to devote to Windows maintenance in that much detail. I find the work of Patch Lady admirable and I applaud everyone who manages their patches to allow only what they want, but I don’t want to have to do that. I want simple, secure, working and that’s it. If it breaks, we will fix it quickly probably so I will take the risk. I started viewing group B as a dangerous path at some point and I was fearing to loose track of all the things and that MS might break something because of the complexity of group B and the fact they probably focus on most people who are in group A. Anyway, group B was never an option for users. Too time-consuming. I don’t regret being group A and following Woody’s defcon.

      I also don’t want to have to do ongoing tricks, checks or maintenance like the wushohide like things to prevent things;  it is not scalable for me. I don’t want to manually verify new patches and block some the way it needs to be done on 10.

      So, what do we do as a small business to continue as much as possible the same way that has worked for us before Windows 10, spending the least amount of time managing PCs beyond their initial install? First, most of my computers stay on 7 or 8.1. For the others, we simply activated the delay of 365 days, chose the CBB setting in group policy and left telemetry to 1. So, we only got 1703 a few weeks ago from 1607 and my home computer is still not rebooted at 1607. It nags me, but somehow I was able to still get some 1607 but I know I will do the upgrade very soon, although I really don’t feel like spending an evening re tweaking things. Should I go to 1709? I don’t trust it enough.

      There is nothing compelling enough in any version of Windows that would make me adopt the latest version to obtain features. CBB is a bit of a joke when MS basically said 1709 was semi-annual channel shortly after its release and today it is still not even CBB by some subjective standards people would have here. I don’t pretend there is nothing worthwile in new versions of Windows, but certainly nothing that justifies upgrading to a newer version unless forced to do so, feom my point of view in a small business. Stability is my top priority and we don’t seem to suffer the same security issues that plagues many companies so I don’t desperately need things like antiransomware. I don’t see any value prematurely running a version of Windows that will probably have less issues if I wait longer to install it.

      The integration of EMET is nice in 1709 but I am fine with EMET right now. Nothing is required for me. And seriously, each version of Windows has brought more disappointment and negatives for me than positives: forced Cortana, replacement of win32 old trusted spps, removal of ReFS from the Pro version, removal of some group policies from Pro, consumer annoyances, etc. So my plan is to run on 1703 until forced to upgrade again, then I might skip 1709 if it is still not so good or if 1803 is really much more clean in terms of stability. I am not dogmatic, but I will go with whatever meets my goal of not loosing time maintaining Windows the most. As for telemetry, I am not happy with it, but I have given up trying to control that at work pretty quickly, hoping the basic level is not too bad. I still does more on my own station at home to disable the snooping but it would not be reasonable to do it for all and I can’t know for sure anyway that I have that much control anyway or that I would not break something and end up like Noel with no updates so I don’t do it for others.

      Choosing to skip or not a version is a matter of when forced to switch, is it worthwhile at that point to skip one version if the later one is stable enough to win a bit more delay before being forced to upgrade again.  To me, this is the key. The answer might differ each time the forced upgrade problem will appear but it is sad that my ultimate goal is to avoid upgrades as much as Microsoft will allow me.

      So this is my experience and opinion on when you should move on the next version of Windows 10. It might look cynical, and it is. Windows doesn’t excite me no more, it is a pain I can’t replace easily that I have to live with. It is so bad because it is so good in many aspects, but I just am not happy at all with the constant disruptive changes and the consumerization of this work tool. I saw MS wants to replace candy crush and the likes by productivity apps for the Workstation version. This is so little, so late. Can you just not preinstall apps, please? And what about the Pro version? What is left of Pro in Pro? We really don’t understand each other, Microsoft.

      In the meantime, I am exploring Linux as a replacement for some workstations but I fear I might have to do the IBM trick and use Apple products at some point. This right now seems the most sensible path to preserve some kind of Office and some kind of sanity, again for the type of small business context I have.

      7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177346 Reply

        Zaphyrus
        AskWoody Lounger

        it makes me giggle a little that Microsoft tried its best with Windows 10 to please business, and guess who are the most affected ones with Windows and its stupid update and upgrade policies?

        Just someone who don't want Windows to mess with its computer.
        • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  Zaphyrus.
        5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177377 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody MVP

        Very well said, Alex. You always have a grounded, practical view. Thank you.

        One phrase you wrote resonates:

        …I am not happy with it, but I have given up trying to control that at work pretty quickly…

        And THAT’s a terrible, terrible truth in all this… I know you wrote it in a narrow context, but it is a bad trend overall.

        What if a basis of your business strategy is that you’ve been able to wrangle your technology into a more productive, more capable set than pretty much everyone else?

        Business is about winning competitions with others (and with entropy), right? Imagine having spent a lifetime optimizing how you compete so that you can finally actually do things that your competition can’t accomplish. Kind of tough to give up on that, eh? Yet here we are.

        There is a big advantage in advancing your level of thinking by having things you rely upon “just work” and not require excessive maintenance or evoke much frustration. You touched on it, Alex, in describing how your folks generally don’t suffer as much from the issues plaguing other companies.

        Once at an “it just works” level, we can start to adapt to the capabilities of our computing platforms and actually think at a higher level, and THAT’s when we begin to accomplish things others just can’t find the mental bandwidth for. It has to do with the rate at which people think and can adapt.

        It’s quite ironic indeed, as Zaphyrus has said, that Microsoft purportedly wants to make advances in thinking level happen for MORE people with their “…as a Service” model (i.e., “let us manage your technology so you can just concentrate on getting your work done“), but their actual implementation of their policies is evoking just the opposite.

        Vista was the embodiment of some quite progressive ideas. The ideas were awesome – fundamental things we’d not had before in personal computing such as “no data loss” and “doesn’t need rebooting“, not to mention “integration” and even “elegance” with an overarching “reduce total cost of ownership” (i.e., making it easier to use). Yet it took 5+ years for Microsoft to stabilize it and clear the platform of construction rubble so that people could finally stand on it, in the forms of Win 7 and 8.1, and only just now have many begun to feel where that next level of computing could lead us. Why do you think half the world is reluctant to leave Windows 7 behind?

        Windows is a platform, not an application – and by almost any measure one of the most complex ever devised. A platform CAN’T be stabilized through constant change.

        -Noel

        6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #177382 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody MVP

      Reading through the above posts, it is truly shocking to see how much effort people are required to put in, in order to be able to run Windows.

      I’ll bet if this huge amount of effort were put into improving Linux, we would have long since abandoned Windows for Linux.

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
      7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177388 Reply

        radosuaf
        AskWoody Lounger

        Fully agree with you. That’s what puts me off – the amount of effort that is needed for W10 not to be annoying. I just cannot justify this looking at the theoretical benefits you’d get.

        MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i5-6402P * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050 Ti D5 4G * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 1803 64-bit
        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177520 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody MVP

        I have been putting my efforts into learning how to tame Linux. And it has paid off. Not everyone will be able to completely make the leap, thanks to lock-ins with some software companies who will never port their products to Linux. But for those of us who can make the leap, I think my efforts at least have been much better spent with Linux than trying to come to terms with whatever it is that Windows is becoming.

        But for those planning to skip 1709 altogether, let me repeat my question: What if 1803 also never stabilizes? Where will you go then?

        -- rc primak

        • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  rc primak.
        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #177855 Reply

          MrJimPhelps
          AskWoody MVP

          I’m running a Windows 8.1 VM inside of Linux for those things I am unable to do in Linux. I am happy to report that the number of such things is getting lower and lower. But I’m guessing I’ll always need to keep a copy of Windows around just in case.

          Is that how you are dealing with this situation?

          Group "L" (Linux Mint)
          with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #177392 Reply

      johnf
      AskWoody Lounger

      If I’m a small business owner, I’d look at Windows LTSB. While it’s not a cure, there are multiple advantages to using this because it delays feature upgrades 2-3 years, vs every six months…and gives you a bit more control. No Cortana, Edge, etc. Here’s a review:

      https://www.computerworld.com/article/3250464/microsoft-windows/faq-windows-10-ltsb-explained.html

      The bad thing is that you either need an Enterprise Volume License, or you pay $7 a month as a service.

      Alex, if you’re going to explore Linux, don’t forget to check out Crossover, from Codeweavers:

      https://www.codeweavers.com/

      This is a great solution for making many Windows programs work on Linux (think of a Wine that works!). Also, you should check out Chromebooks as well for Business…

       

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177398 Reply

        geekdom
        AskWoody Lounger

        Codeweavers: I think I’ll try it for two untranslatable software packages.

        Group G{ot backup} Win7 · x64 · SP1 · i3-3220 · TestBeta
      • #177412 Reply

        anonymous

        @ johnf

        AFAIK, Win 10 Ent LTSB/LTSC is only available through Volume Licensing(VL), as an outright purchase, ie LTSC is not available for Win 10 Ent E3 subscriptions @ US$7 per month per seat/user/employee.
        ___ I’m not sure whether Win 10 Ent LTSC VL is also available for lease/rental under M$’s 3-year Enterprise Agreements which come with compulsory 3-year Software Assurance or Upgrade Insurance throughout the extendable or renewable lease period.
        ___ Subscriptions-based Win 10 Ent E3 and E5(= US$14 per month) cannot be converted to LTSC.

        If the normal Win 10 Ent E3 costs US$400 per license for purchase, the Win 10 Ent LTSC will cost double, ie US$800 per license. If the Small Business(SB) has 50 employees, Win 10 Ent 2016 LTSC VL will cost the SB US$40,000 in total upfront costs.
        ___ First-time purchase of Win 10 Ent VL requires the additional purchase of the 3-year Software Assurance(SA) for at least one purchase, which will cost another US$40,000(plus a 13% discount) over 3 years.
        ___ SA entitles the SB to upgrade for “free” within that 3 years, eg upgrade from Win 10 Ent LTSC 2016 to LTSC 2019. Win 10 Ent 2016 LTSC or 2019 LTSC can be used for about 10 years, ie until 2026 or 2029.

        So, it is much more costly for a Small Business to run Win 10 Ent LTSC Volume Licenses, compared to Win 10 Pro.
        ___ OEM Win 10 Pro licenses only cost about US$50 each. The transferable Retail version costs US$200(-$1) each. And no need to buy Software Assurance.
        .

        P S – Since end 2014, M$ requires all first-time purchasers of Windows Ent VL to also buy Software Assurance at least once.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #177399 Reply

      MrToad28
      AskWoody Lounger

      I’m sticking with Windows 7..at least till they stop security updates in 2020 and possibly well beyond. Watching the Win 10 parade of horrors from afar has been entertaining but makes me glad I have resisted upgrade offers and new PC deals. Speaking of the latter..how many have decided to hold off till Intel fixes it’s chips.

      Microsoft updates are breaking/impairing way more PC’s than any malware they might prevent. I’m coming to the view that safe practices and multi-layer anti-malware are a better solution than update roulette [similar to Russian variety, but it’s your PC’s ‘brain’ that’s wiped out].

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177416 Reply

        anonymous

        Later this year, Intel will be baking the Meltdown and Spectre patches together with their associated performance-hits(= 5 to 30%) into all their new chips, ie Intel will be retaining her “speedy” speculative-execution feature.
        I’ll be going for AMD chips, which do not have the vulnerable speculative-execution feature.

        • #177571 Reply

          anonymous

          If you read the Intel announcement carefully, you’ll notice that only a part of the issue will be addressed via hardware implementation while the rest continues to be mitigated via microcode.

      • #177859 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        I’m sticking with Windows 7..at least till they stop security updates in 2020 and possibly well beyond.

        Mr. Toad, have you considered switching to Windows 8.1, with Classic Shell installed? With Classic Shell, you can make Windows 8.1 look and feel EXACTLY like Windows 7, with the advantage that you’ll get security updates till January 2023. This will give you three additional years of the Windows 7 experience.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #177413 Reply

      dhdoyle
      AskWoody Lounger

      Wow. It’s nice to feel at home here. I am a consulting engineer, a force of one. I run Windows 10 Pro. My IT needs are as formal as an enterprise, but I have to manage my home office myself. I was one who was forcefully upgraded a couple weeks ago. Frankly, I don’t want Creators version ever. I played with it and then restored my backup image. It offers nothing to my engineering business and I don’t want to learn to work around a bunch of new toys that I didn’t request. If my computers aren’t running, I am losing money. My IT time is overhead. I wish Microsoft would fork Windows 10 between “Windows 10 Office” and “Windows 10 Entertainment”. Businesses don’t need new features twice a year. They need low maintenence.

      7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177418 Reply

        Cybertooth
        AskWoody Lounger

        @dhdoyle: Welcome, and I couldn’t agree more with what you said.

        Ever since Windows 10 came out, we have been overrun by an avalanche of acronyms – WaaS, CBB, FCU, LTSB, LTSC, etc. etc. For those of us who run small businesses, all we want is a Windows LIAA edition: Leave It Alone Already.

        7 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177420 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        DH: If you have a Windows 8.1 license available (for example, a backup of a Windows 8.1 install), you could install that, then install Classic Shell. You would then have a stable version of Windows which will be supported by Microsoft till January of 2023. Best of all, you would be off of the Windows 10 treadmill; you would no longer be the mouse running forever in the Windows 10 wheel.

        If you go this route, keep your eye on Woody’s MS-Defcon display at the top of this screen. Keep automatic Windows updates off until Woody goes to MS-Defcon 3 or higher, then do a backup, then install the latest group of Windows 8.1 updates.

        You can buy a retail license for Windows 8.1 Pro for $130 from Newegg:
        https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832397788&cm_re=windows_8.1_pro-_-32-397-788-_-Product

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #177430 Reply

      JohnW
      AskWoody Lounger

      I wonder … what would happen … if Microsoft just froze Windows 10 feature development for a couple of years, and focused on stability and security instead???

      You know, just issue patches for security and bug fixes.  Things that could make Windows 10 a stable, fully functional, OS platform.  Would anybody actually complain about no new stuff and stop buying Windows???

      Or would MS potentially reduce development expenses, while at the same time increasing market share for Windows 10?

      Wait, that would take too much common sense!!!  🙂

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177441 Reply

        Zaphyrus
        AskWoody Lounger

        Its like a Typical teenager movie

        The ugly main girl wants to be like the popular girl

        (popular girl being apple and ugly main girl being microsoft)
        In the ends, the ugly main girl is fine as she is, and realize that she don’t want to be like the popular girl

        I wonder how many years it will take before Microsoft realizes that?

        Despite everything I love Windows 10, I just dont want updates to screw my computer.

        Just someone who don't want Windows to mess with its computer.
        • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  Zaphyrus.
        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #177442 Reply

        Mr. Natural
        AskWoody Lounger

        @ JohnW – Would be nice but if anyone who is an Office 365 admin looks at the message board you can see that isn’t going to happen. It’s ridiculous actually. Nearly everyday there is something new being released or changed. The pic is only a recent listing of updates. This list goes on and on just like this with new releases, changes, etc. And yes many times you’ll see reports of something broken in the services advisory due to a recent change.

        Capture-1

        Attachments:
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        • #177475 Reply

          JohnW
          AskWoody Lounger

          Sorry, but there is a world of difference between an APPLICATION, and an operating system.

          Totally different requirements… an application benefits most from NO changes to the operating system.

          Applications need a stable OS framework to function well.  If you make frequent changes to both, you just make a mess of the computing environment for everybody.

          Microsoft needs to embrace the difference, and align their strategy accordingly.  Focus on Office, and leave Windows alone.

          3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #177446 Reply

      Mr. Natural
      AskWoody Lounger

      Wow. It’s nice to feel at home here. I am a consulting engineer, a force of one. I run Windows 10 Pro. My IT needs are as formal as an enterprise, but I have to manage my home office myself. I was one who was forcefully upgraded a couple weeks ago. Frankly, I don’t want Creators version ever. I played with it and then restored my backup image. It offers nothing to my engineering business and I don’t want to learn to work around a bunch of new toys that I didn’t request. If my computers aren’t running, I am losing money. My IT time is overhead. I wish Microsoft would fork Windows 10 between “Windows 10 Office” and “Windows 10 Entertainment”. Businesses don’t need new features twice a year. They need low maintenence.

      Microsoft lost touch with the corporate business model when they released Windows 8 and it’s gotten worse since then. Remember W8 originally was designed to be used with a touch screen interface. Microsoft apparently thought all businesses would be happy to spend tons of money for new touch screen monitors for everyone. How would everyone like to work on that excel spreadsheet using a touch screen? No one ever considered that? It’s nuts….. or I guess in this day and age it’s normal now.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177477 Reply

        JohnW
        AskWoody Lounger

        If Microsoft would just stop deciding in a vacuum what everybody should want, and just listened, there would be no problem…

        The trouble is they do not listen anymore.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #177509 Reply

          Elly
          AskWoody MVP

          Clearly, Microsoft has ideas about what it wants and needs in the operating systems it offers. They have the operating system that everyone I know wants, but they reserve it for the big money players (Enterprise LTSB… or what ever the current terminology is), and then they try to slough off a deliberately impaired system to home and small business users. It wasn’t profitable enough for them to let people upgrade at their own pace, so now they are enforcing a quick end of life, for both older systems, and the newer processors… knowing that it will cause problems, and abandoning the backwards compatability that made it worthwhile to upgrade my last two times. I’m thinking that a new OS should work better, be more stable, and be easier to configure to my particular needs… about the only thing that would be an improvement for me is Cortana… if they ever get it local, and not cloud associated. I won’t touch cloud apps, cloud integration… and given Microsoft’s current direction, I have no doubt they will punish, rather than support me, and those like me. So… no W10. I’m already hoping that Microsoft is right… that changes need to be made faster… and that I can hold on until they get their act together, or someone else replaces them… W10 is already a has been… I’m looking for a different operating system, altogether. A business has a lot on the line, when it is choosing an upgrade path. Making a decision based on the past performance of W10, I don’t see that it is viable in a 5-10 year business plan. It is ridiculous to sit here and have to wonder if it is going to work now, or 18 months from now, or when you have time and money to waste to test it, or if your hardware will suddenly be inadequate. If Windows is absolutely essential in a a particular business, it might be worthwhile to form a co-op of window dependent businesses, and purchase the Enterprise edition and support that way. I’m thinking that shelters for abused women might band together and do something like that. I can’t think of any other group that has such serious, life and death needs for a secure and private system, and is stripped of that kind of basic protection because of Microsoft’s marketing plan. I doubt that Microsoft would approve, but it might give one the numbers needed to get an OS that will last for a reasonable 10 year plan… Co-ops have been worthwhile in other areas, and some have been amazingly successful. But watch! Microsoft will probably figure that it is an unlawful way of using their OS… I have no confidence in them, at all.

          Win 7 Home, 64 bit, Group B

          3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #177491 Reply

      anonymous

      Is 1709 stable enough to move from 1607? Or should I wait for 1803 instead?

      • #177572 Reply

        anonymous

        Wait for 1803. Microsoft no longer cares about previous versions (including 1709) after being shipped, except LTSC releases.

    • #177522 Reply

      rc primak
      AskWoody MVP

      All things considered, I think I will upgrade to Version 1709 before it goes away. But I am not at all happy with having to do this. My reasoning, as I have stated, is that there is no guarantee that Version 1803 will ever be stable either.  At this point, if we are waiting for a stable Microsoft OS, we may be Waiting For Godot.

      -- rc primak

      • #177526 Reply

        Zaphyrus
        AskWoody Lounger

        well, 1709 isn’t stable either,  and there’s aso no guarantee it will be stable too.

        Just someone who don't want Windows to mess with its computer.
      • #177678 Reply

        Jonathan Handler
        AskWoody Lounger

        Noel:

        I will do the same thing, probably late next week.

        I do want 1709 for Placeholders and for granularity in the Privacy settings.

        I next want 1803 for support of Progressive Web  Apps, because I am hoping that they will be a good source of new applications for my current Lenovo ThinkPad Yoga S1 and possibly an Always Connected Windows PC running on Qualcomm Snapdragon.

        • #182925 Reply

          rc primak
          AskWoody MVP

          If that reply was aimed at my post, I am not Noel.

          — rc primak —

          -- rc primak

    • #177574 Reply

      Mr. Natural
      AskWoody Lounger

      Sorry, but there is a world of difference between an APPLICATION, and an operating system. Totally different requirements… an application benefits most from NO changes to the operating system. Applications need a stable OS framework to function well. If you make frequent changes to both, you just make a mess of the computing environment for everybody. Microsoft needs to embrace the difference, and align their strategy accordingly. Focus on Office, and leave Windows alone.

      My intention was to show the mindset of where Microsoft is now regardless of whether we’re talking OS or applications. Both need attention and a focus on stability rather than focusing on new features.

    • #177591 Reply

      johnf
      AskWoody Lounger

      Microsoft is consistent on what their focus, if you look at their actions:

      1) MS’s major source of income now is from the cloud (Azure), Office, and Enterprise Licenses (along with XBox).

      2) Home users (and small businesses) are not a major source of income. But they DO make great beta testers! So, from an MS point of view, forcing telemetry is vital, as it eliminates the need to hire beta testers…in effect, they get those for free! The major sources of income benefit from this.

      3) Microsoft is likely going to try and get more money from Win10 users; for example, they can offer multiple versions of 10, each at a price level, that have different capabilities (for example, the ability to prevent advertising). Or they can force users of lower levels to the Windows app store.

      MS has a history of doing things like this, and until there is real competition, they have no reason to compete and listen to regular users. We can suggest until the cows come home, but I’m sure you’re going to see less and less control by the user, and more of a “walled garden”.  It’s good business…for MS!

       

      • #177595 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        Home users (and small businesses) are not a major source of income. But they DO make great beta testers! So, from an MS point of view, forcing telemetry is vital, as it eliminates the need to hire beta testers…in effect, they get those for free!

        Free in the short term, but costly in the long term. At some point Microsoft will pay a price for doing this — a huge number of their customers will abandon them, and they will never get them back. Microsoft needs these customers, because a huge installed base of “little guy” users is an essential part of the whole Microsoft ecosystem. If they lose this huge installed base, the whole thing will begin to come apart, because it will no longer be true that “everyone uses Windows”. This “everyone uses Windows” momentum that Microsoft currently benefits from will shift to someone else. At that point they will realize that what they have done to so many other companies, they have now done to themselves.

        The only way that Microsoft can fix this is to put Bill Gates back in total control of the company. Gates knew how to build Microsoft into what it became, and he will know how to steer Microsoft back onto the track. But that will never happen; Gates isn’t coming back.

        Group "L" (Linux Mint)
        with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
    • #177601 Reply

      anonymous

      The answers is NEVER update to Windows 10. It is the worse system ever. It takes 3 days to install, two weeks to stablize it, and then hope/pray/cross fingers that Windows Updates does not mess it up or back to square one. Square one is reinstall it again for 3 days, etc etc. Repeat and repeat. Windows 10 is not ready to be deployed. It should go back to the drawing boards for further testing and development.

      4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #177633 Reply

        JohnW
        AskWoody Lounger

        Or you could simply get Windows 10 stable one time, and then take an image of that and put it away somewhere safe.

        Then if your system ever gets unstable from some update, or something that you installed along the way, just back up your current files (user docs, etc. ) and restore that clean image.  No days required to install and stabilize it that way.  You can begin fresh from a clean stable baseline in probably an hour or less.

        And if you know what updates wrecked your system, you can hide them, so they will not be re-installed.

        You can also periodically make updated versions of these images, so a restore doesn’t send you all the way back unless necessary.  Just remember to keep that first one in case.

        • #177668 Reply

          anonymous

          The easiest way to keep things running smooth is to run Hyper-V virtual machines and take snapshots. The main node should just get the vanilla Windows install (cleaned up and locked down) and Hyper-V enabled.

    • #177939 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Lounger

      After decades going through 11 different types of OS (first a PDP 11 with a paper tape drive, then IBM, Amdhal and CDC mainframes, old Apple OS 6, UNIX, LINUX, Windows 98, XP and finally to Win 7 and Mac OS X) , I have found the hard way that every time one changes to a new OS, even if it is from a previous to a new version of the same system, there is a lot of time wasted trying to figure out how to do things that have been already figured out, with substantial effort, and working fine in the previous version. Not to mention coming up with new workarounds for the bugs and quirks of the new system that get in the way of doing what one needs to do and takes days, weeks and even months asking others and searching around in the Web to find some hint of a solution

      20 years ago, I went solo and started to be my own SysAdmin and IT expert wrapped into one, and now I must admit to not having really enjoyed the experience that much. I am a consultant engineer, developing and testing scientific and engineering data analysis techniques and often having to write my own software to be able to do this, writing the scripts to run it, and often calling from those bought and paid for commercial programs installed in the computer for doing part of the work, such as making plots. So these problems with changes of OS are felt keenly, particularly when some of that software does no longer run, or run poorly, with the new OS.

      I really wonder how people in a similar line of work and, for some reason, now running Windows 10, are managing to cope with these very frequent changes Microsoft is now inflicting on its users. To me this makes no sense at all, unless MS wants to be the top company that provides for the needs of those that only write email, play games, or make phone calls using Skype and such. Except that the likely customers either don’t do those things anymore, or else use smart phones, not PCs, for most of what they do. Probably running Android OS.

      • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  OscarCP.
      • This reply was modified 9 months ago by  OscarCP.
      2 users thanked author for this post.

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