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  • When Windows 10 Feature Updates don’t go smoothly

    Home Forums AskWoody blog When Windows 10 Feature Updates don’t go smoothly

    This topic contains 44 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Noel Carboni 3 weeks, 3 days ago.

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    • #2006075 Reply

      Kirsty
      Da Boss

      Last weekend, I decided to bite the bullet and update a Win10-1803 Pro machine to Win10-1809, using Windows Update. I’d taken a system image backup, a
      [See the full post at: When Windows 10 Feature Updates don’t go smoothly]

      8 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2006104 Reply

      GreatAndPowerfulTech
      AskWoody Plus

      Our computer repair shop has had a nice increase in business in 2019 thanks to both feature and cumulative updates making machines unusable. I recommend Chromebooks now to customers that don’t require Windows desktop programs. When the current machine needs to be replaced, if the upgrade mechanism for Windows is still unreliable, the new machines won’t run Windows. The school districts use Chromebooks already. So, they’re not an unknown element to customers, just an unfamiliar one at this time.

      GreatAndPowerfulTech

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2006160 Reply

      Picard87
      AskWoody Plus

      Yes, this should not happen.

      Yes, Windows Update has become less of a reliable with Windows 10.

      Yes, Windows 10 is not perfect.

      Nevertheless, I don’t think such a post helps anybody except blowing off steam.

      You describe a very individual setting, not giving details about hardware or software or any changes to Windows you might have made.

      Windows is intended to run on a million different setups and in billions of individual configurations including legacy support for basically everything. There are flaws and Microsoft could do better to avoid update disasters. Still, this blog gains lots of attention in the tech world and I don’t think such a post helps to constructively work around such situations. Many will think “yes, happened to me too, MS su***s”. But that doesn’t help because then fewer people are really willing to test insider builds and fewer people at Microsoft are willing to read customer support or legitimate posts on problems =like in blogs here).

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2006212 Reply

        Pim
        AskWoody Plus

        I do not agree. It may result in tips that can be used to prevent situations like these (see f.i. my other comment). A post like this can thus be helpful.

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        • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Pim. Reason: link added
        • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Pim.
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        • #2006228 Reply

          Picard87
          AskWoody Plus

          I would agree if any specifics were given. But we don’t get any information on hardware, bios version, driver versions, software, settings, changes to the system etc.

          So there is no way to say this is typical behaviour and if you do A or B, you can avoid that.

          I don’t want to apologize for Microsoft, but it’s literally impossible to cover all specific cases.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2006231 Reply

            Pim
            AskWoody Plus

            I think you are approaching this too technically. My tip is a procedural one and I was able to give it without having technical details. Without giving specifics a fruitful discussion can still follow. And if you want more specifics: just ask. Many discussions can lead to new and unexpected insights.

            I do not know your background, but there is more to technology than just the technology. This is a common mistake many technically trained/involved people make, they just look at the technical side of the matter (I am not technically trained at all, everything I know I have learned myself). You do not want to know how many times I have been declared a fool for still having Vista on one of my computers without replying to the actual question I had (not on AskWoody though, that is why it is such a great site). Even people who are using Windows 7 are at some sites sometimes also looked weirdly at: “You should already have upgraded to Windows 10. Why are you still using Windows 7?”, or “Just upgrade to Windows 10 and your problem will be solved”. Well, people sometimes make a conscious decision to use Windows Vista/7/xx or for some reason cannot upgrade.

            The reason why I still have Vista on one of my computers is because of personal issues which have prevented me from upgrading yet. To then receive remarks that I should have known better is, IMO, a lack of empathy and looking at the world rather black and white. I do not mean you did that, it is just an example of what I have experienced elsewhere, but I do invite everybody to take a broader perspective, be open and willing to think outside of their own box. To repeat myself: there is more to technology than just the technology.

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      • #2006735 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        I don’t think such a post helps anybody except blowing off steam.

        While I respect that viewpoint, it couldn’t be further from my opinion!

        Such posts help folks to know that:
        1) upgrades CAN be problematic, even for brilliant folks, and
        2) that there ARE techniques for getting past the problems.

        Just the “I’d taken a system image backup” part is GOLDEN ADVICE, frankly.

        Ask yourself: Why am I not taking System Image backups all the time?

        FYI: I am, on all my Windows systems. Religiously. Automatically.

        If you are not because you don’t know how, or because you think the investment in an external USB drive is too much to bear, I’d suggest asking again until the answer changes. It’s not that difficult nor is it expensive.

        -Noel

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2006190 Reply

      Paul T
      AskWoody MVP

      I don’t think such a post helps anybody except blowing off steam

      That’s what this site is for. 🙂
      Plus how to recover when things do go wrong.

      cheers, Paul

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2006423 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        Bingo.

        Far too many people think that changing Win10 versions is a piece of cake — after all, upgrading from Windows 10 to Windows 10 can’t be all that difficult, right?

        Most of the time, upgrades go without a hitch. But sometimes they go horribly wrong. It’s important for people to realize that — and even better if they can hear the straight story from someone who’s helping here, on the site, all the time.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2006553 Reply

          joep517
          AskWoody MVP

          However, the more information about hardware details, software details, Windows version, changes made to Windows, etc. the more other users will be able to assess the applicability to their own situation. Generic “I had a problem” and “here’s how I recovered” tend to make many users scared unnecessarily.

          --Joe

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2006203 Reply

      Pim
      AskWoody Plus

      And this is why one ALWAYS, ALWAYS needs to make a rescue medium for the imaging program before ever using the program. If you had a rescue medium for your imaging program (I understand from your story you did not or did not think about it) you would have been able to restore the system image from before the update, without the need to have Windows running properly.

      I never start using an imaging program before having made and tested (!) a rescue CD. I always make two rescue CD’s in case one of them does not work. It has saved my b*tt a couple of times.

      Kirsty, I wish you good luck with restoring your computer! These jobs are the most *&%$#@! jobs to do, because it feels like a waste of time. Been there, done that more times than I can count 🙁  That is why I now have a very strong discipline of doing installs & updates only the safest way possible.

      BTW: I highly recommend Macrium Home (the paid version). With Black Friday and Cyber Monday around the corner: Macrium usually gives a 40% discount then.

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      • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Pim. Reason: Added some text
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      • #2006287 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        It looks like a restore from a System Image was attempted:

        At this time, I decided it was time to try to restore the system image. Again, the gpsvc error. Apparently there had been some issue prior to the update attempt?

        System Image restorations only work if the partition and format information haven’t been borked. If either of these parameters is out of whack, you can say goodbye to your Image Restore options in many cases. That is, unless you enjoy setting up the whole disk all over again, including low-level partitioning and formatting. In my case this would wipe out my Linux dual-boot, resulting in more than double the trouble to restore the whole system. But that could happen to me in any failed upgrade, Windows or Linux, on that machine.

        Being able to boot into USB restore media has its advantages, but it is not a cure-all. That’s why every image needs to be tested before a failure of the live OS, to see if the image is truly restorable. I don’t go to that extreme, but by not doing so, I am running a calculated risk, and a big one.

        -- rc primak

        • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  rc primak.
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        • #2006343 Reply

          Pim
          AskWoody Plus

          You are correct. I had missed her remark “Apparently there had been some issue prior to the update attempt?” My bad. I had read that Kirsty tried a system restore, but when doing that she got the same gpsvc error. My logical conclusion was therefore that she tried to restore an image from within Windows. How could you get the gpsvc error when booting outside of Windows? If you then restore the image from before the upgrade, i.e. before the first occurrence of the gpsvc error, everything should be alright. But now I understand that the issue occurred even after restoring the image. I have had something similar happen to me before. But that brings me to my next point.

          I make images very regularly. Every week, every month en when I think it is appropriate, e.g. before updating a particular program These are 3 separate images. The monthly images I always keep as an archive, I never delete them. The weekly images I delete (automatically) after two months. So I am always able to go back further in time. I have even gone back 2 years in time to find out what the cause for something was, which then helped me repair it in my current installation. Such a disciplined approach might have helped in this case. It is because of events like the one Kirsty described, that I have come up with this approach. I wrote above that I had something similar like Kirsty’s case happen to me before, that an error occurred for the first time after making an image and therefore assumed that restoring the image would solve it, only to find out that it then also happened. My solution then was to restore an image that was one week older. I also keep a log for every computer in which I record the changes that I make, like installations, update etc. This helps me greatly when considering which image I want to restore. And after the restoration I can then relatively quickly perform the changes again, that I lost because of the restoration, because I know what the changes were.

          I mostly use Macrium Reflect and in some cases TeraByte’s Image for Windows for imaging. Both programs are able to remove partitions and then restore the partitions included in the image. And if it is not possible to restore one image because it is faulty (which has never happened to me) I just take another image close to the original image.

          My advice to everybody is, exactly for what Kirsty described, to be very disciplined in making images, preparing rescue media en (preferably) also keeping a log. I cannot tell you how much time, effort and frustration it has saved me over the years.

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          • #2007108 Reply

            rc primak
            AskWoody_MVP

            That reminds me — I do keep detailed notes of everything I do on my computers, and some notes on what happens with my other tech devices. When talking to support people or technicians, these notes can provide clues as to what to try next. They also remind me of what I was doing when things went haywire. Lessons learned,over and over.

            I archive my notes more frequently than I back up my other data. Nearly every change in the notes goes into a backup file off the device I’m working on. This is the one file I never want to lose or have to work from an older copy of it.

            -- rc primak

        • #2006493 Reply

          Tom-R
          AskWoody Plus

          I ran into a similar problem where an update caused a system to stop working, and I was unable to restore from the System Image due (apparently) to the partition and/or format info getting “borked”.  But shouldn’t it be possible to guard against such issues by making a full disk image backup of the boot drive (e.g., with Macrium Reflect)?  Wouldn’t that save all the partition and format info — including any dual-boot Linux-Windows configuration?

          • #2007110 Reply

            rc primak
            AskWoody_MVP

            Yes, that should work. But on the borked drive you might have to use other modules in Macrium Reflect, or even another boot media program, to restore the disk structure. It depends on how deeply the messing-up penetrated.

            -- rc primak

            • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  rc primak.
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    • #2006252 Reply

      anonymous

      Ever since Windows 10 was released, I’ve felt like a soldier hunkered down in my fox hole afraid to stick my head up in fear of catching the next bullet. Windows shouldn’t be that complicated, only MS chooses to make it that way.

      • #2006301 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        I don’t like to feel that way. This is why I have learned to back up in multiple formats to several copies of my restore archives. I have also run monthly drills to make sure my Macrium Reflect and other bootable rescue media still work. (Last month they weren’t working until I reset my BIOS to allow Legacy Boot = MBR Boot.) I don’t move everything off site, but short of that, I am seriously protected if when something goes wrong with an update or an upgrade.

        Just the other day, I was doing my October Windows Updates (Win 10, ver. 1809) and cleaning some junkware out of my Limited User Account. I then updated the Windows Store Apps. The Windows Store App itself said it needed to “upgrade”, which I clicked on. BOOM! The Store Apps went into an infinite loop of downloading and failing to install, at about the 98 percent stage. I tried every trick in Windows, the Store and Powershell, even making the account Admin. and a Microsoft Cloud Account. Nothing could restore the Windows Store for that account.

        I finally decided to blow away the User Account and start over with it. I have backups of all my data, an Image Backup, and some limited backups of settings for Windows and the apps I could use in that account. The Store and the Store Apps just reassemble themselves magically when a new user account is created, so no worries there. Eventually it all would get back into sync.

        I also kept the munged User Account for its data and settings, as well as the desktop shortcuts for apps, folders, etc. I’ll delete it after making a new image backup of the entire working and non-working parts of the existing configuration. Run a thorough system cleanup and run Storage Sense (Disk Cleanup). Then I’ll be ready to upgrade to Version 1903, which I corralled onto a USB Stick using the MS-MCT before the change-over to Version 1909 is expected this month. Again, save local copies of EVERYTHING — even things you don’t have installed but may want to install soon.

        It took me just a couple of hours to get a usable new Limited User Account set up and tested. I had messed with that munged account for many hours before giving up on it. And still never solved whatever the underlying problems were.

        None of this would have been anywhere near as easy if I weren’t in the habit of backing up everything every way I know how to do it. Same if not more so in all my Linux installations. (It’s worth paying a fee to use Aptik-gtk, so that all the stuff I do by hand in Windows is fully automated in Linux. I’d like to find something in Windows which has that many data and settings backup modules under one roof, in one interface. File History just doesn’t get into the settings and programs enough.)

        And yet at all my computer user group meetings, every time I start to recite my methods, I get blank stares and eye-rolls. And horror stories from other members of how many times they have lost data because they don’t care to know what I do. Meanwhile, I have never even lost an email message. This is no accident, and my recursive backup strategy is why I can be fearless in updating, upgrading and performing “brain salad surgery” on my Windows and Linux installations.

        Never compute without backups! Would you fly a self-built ultralight airplane without a parachute? Most folks are doing just that with their PCs and devices.

        -- rc primak

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        • #2006348 Reply

          Pim
          AskWoody Plus

          You sound like me 🙂

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    • #2006292 Reply

      anonymous

      Eventually, we are going back to the mainframe-dumb terminal era. Google is there, and MSFT is not far from behind. Maybe Apple can be our last hope.

      • #2006304 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        Apple is deprecating Mac OS even as you post this. Sooner or later, everything Apple makes will connect to the Cloud just to get to its Apps. It will all be iOS. Apple has said this many times and has been quoted in tech publications and online.

        Linux offers a desktop alternative which (in some distros) isn’t going anywhere any time soon. As long as hardware continues to be made for offline use, Linux will be available to run on some most hardware. It may well be that for desktop die-hards, Linux is our last hope.

        -- rc primak

    • #2006300 Reply

      anonymous

      The Windows 10 1809 version has seemed very troubled, starting at rollout.   Some people have preferred to wait for other later versions to prove themselves stable.

      It seems you did inline upgrading.  Sometimes it appears that doing the Windows 10 major version upgrades works more smoothly when done from an ISO disk.

      • #2006305 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        I did an in-place upgrade when I moved from 1803 to 1809 a half-year or so ago. I had no serious issues. At least not initially. It was the updates to 1809 which made mush of my installation — over and over again — requiring often extensive repairs or rollbacks.

        -- rc primak

        • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  rc primak.
        • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  rc primak.
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    • #2006337 Reply

      Cayennejim
      AskWoody Plus

      For someone contemplating the move from a 10-year old windows 7 machine to a new Dell window’s 10 pro desktop, articles like this scare me.

      • #2006351 Reply

        mn–
        AskWoody Lounger

        … and with reason.

        Because this is the EXACT symptom that some users seem to have on move to Windows 10.

        Preinstall W10 Pro, preload end-user specific preloadable application kit. Go to user desk, shutdown and unplug Windows 7 PC, plug in new one. Log in as local admin, join to domain, run gpupdate just in case.

        Test login as generic admin with domain account, working.
        Log in as designated end user (who even for the moment has local admin rights through their domain login!) … “Hi” loop, gpsvc errors, “windows\system32\config\systemprofile\desktop is unavailable”.

        Put the old Windows 7 box back in and take the new one back to IT …

        So yeah. This one can happen for only some users on a shared PC, and also on other than first login after update.

        And I still don’t actually know what causes it… I have some educated guesses though.

      • #2006424 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        contemplating the move from a 10-year old windows 7 machine to a new Dell window’s 10 pro desktop

        Have you considered getting a Chromebook?

        Seriously. Unless the data harvesting bothers you — and I can sympathize with that — with very rare exceptions, Chromebooks are a much better choice.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2006358 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      I’m beginning to look and sound like a .gif, but I remain curious as to why I have been able to upgrade from Windows 7 Ultimate (never skipping an update/upgrade except drivers) to Windows 8 (never skipping an update/upgrade except drivers) to Windows 8.1 (never skipping an update/upgrade) to Windows 10 (never skipping an update/upgrade except drivers) with none of the issues that I have seen here and on other forums.

      I run older vanilla hardware, Intel DH87RL motherboard and Core i5-4670 CPU (vintage 2013) in a DIY box, and a 2013 Dell Latitude E5420 laptop with Dell OH5TG2 motherboard and Core i5-2520M CPU.  I also have a DIY NAS utilizing four 3TB Seagate drives in a RAID 10 (1 + 0) array built on the same Intel DH87RL motherboard and Core i5-4670 CPU.  It was a clean install of Windows 10, but never skipping an update/upgrade except drivers.

      All are currently Windows 10 Version 1909 (OS Build 18363.476) and all are running quite normally.  Earlier upgrades didn’t like my StartIsBack++ and uninstalled it (but left the installation folders in place in Program Files), and all I had to do was run the installation executable again to get it back.  The only other app that has been uninstalled (other than Windows own depreciations now and again) was MagicDisc, an optical drive virtualization utility that allowed mounting of ISO files, which is no longer necessary.

      The only common thread in all of this lots-of-issues vs no-issues, is never skipping an update/upgrade except drivers.  My penchant for staying continually updated began with my slicing and dicing of XP Pro.  One of my requisite issues was the ability to get updates without failures, and whether an update would break my bench machine.  I always had (and still have) a drive image at the ready that was no more than a week old.  No matter what happened, I was good to go, so I was constantly checking for updates.

      And I still do, but so far, I have had no issues to report.  Everything just continues to work normally.  The last two upgrades/updates didn’t even kick out StartIsBack++, and MagicDisc is long gone.  Task Scheduler creates fresh drive images for me every Saturday night.  I’m not on the MS-DEFCON bus; I go a different route, fresh drive image at the ready.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
      "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Jack Sparrow
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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      • #2006405 Reply

        mn–
        AskWoody Lounger

        The only common thread in all of this lots-of-issues vs no-issues, is never skipping an update/upgrade except drivers.

        Well, except for the part where the same symptoms sometimes happen on a brand new PC, on first user login after domain join. (Worked for local admin, worked for domain admin, error for domain user with domain-granted local admin rights. No feature updates installed after factory. User’s Windows 7 PC continues to work.)

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2006426 Reply

        woody
        Da Boss

        I’m convinced there’s a great deal of luck involved.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2006441 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      I’m convinced there’s a great deal of luck involved.

      Yep, from ~2002 until my latest update on the 13th of this month is indeed a great deal of luck, if that’s what it is.  I’m not a believer in luck.

      I’ve personally caused a cornucopia of Windows issues with my continual tinkering with Windows innards looking for hows and whys and what ifs, but that’s all on me, and always a learning experience.  Those are the only issues I’ve had, always easily corrected with a drive image restoration after I’ve finished poking and prodding.

      I’ve had System Restore disabled since that became a thing.  I’ve had fast start disabled since that became a thing.  I’ve vanquished libraries and special folders since they became things.  When an upgrade has brought them back, the first thing I’ve done is import my registry files into the registry to vanquish them yet again.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
      "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Jack Sparrow
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

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      • #2007115 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        I could have avoided a lot of my issues by not tinkering with my PC’s. But where’s the fun in that? 🙂

        Seriously, I have my reasons for most of the tinkering I do. So do most of us around here who tinker. It seems to be almost a requirement for AskWoody blog regulars to be tinkerers, though there are some who come here just to keep plain-vanilla Windows machines working at their best.

        If you like or can work with Windows as it is, fine. And I admire that ability. I personally can’t deal with Plain Vanilla anything. Maybe that’s my Asperger’s Syndrome talking. But I have to be able to deal with what happens if we do alter the original Microsoft Plan for our lives. (Or the Google Plan, or the Apple Plan, etc.)

        Did I mention I prefer Linux? I mention this now, because it is a hallmark of most Linux distros that you assemble a lot of things for yourself, and you therefore know something about how it was built. The rest you can learn as you go, and you can look into all the code if you like, and see what’s going on and what’s going wrong. Usually (but not always) you can also see how to fix what isn’t working.

        -- rc primak

        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  rc primak.
        • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  rc primak.
    • #2006482 Reply

      GeoffB
      AskWoody Plus

      As someone who has just come to Win 10 (v1809) after more than 10 relatively happy years on Win 7, I’m alarmed that someone as skilled as Kirsty could encounter these problems.  I guess it shows that Microsoft plays no favourites and that one should ‘hope for the best but prepare for the worst’.

      As well as creating backups and images, I think I might invest in a Chromebook as an alternative should Win 10 create similar problems for a non-tech user like me.

       

      GeoffB

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    • #2006519 Reply

      James Bond 007
      AskWoody Lounger

      Direct upgrading of Windows, as far as I can see, has always been less than reliable. You never know whether you will run into serious issues like the OP or not. If you are lucky the upgrade process may proceed without issues, but if you are unlucky you may have serious problems. 4 years of Windows 10 has not really changed my opinion about it.

      As a user of Windows 7, Windows 8.1, Windows 10 LTSB / LTSC (Windows 10 for testing purposes only), personally I won’t do any kind of direct Windows upgrades as I can’t know in advance whether I will encounter issues. If you want to do it, make sure you create reliable image backups of your system before proceeding. I use Acronis True Image to do image backups and I use a bootable CD with which to run Acronis True Image (and Acronis Disk Director if necessary) by itself without using Windows. This way any potential problems with running the program within Windows can be avoided.

      Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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    • #2006560 Reply

      joep517
      AskWoody MVP

      In a similar vein to @bbearren, I’ve done many, many upgrades with Win10. I’ve been in the Windows Insider program since October 2014. In that time, I’ve upgraded to every new insider release, which averages one per week. In that time, I had one problem with an upgrade which prevented the upgrade from completing successfully on my Surface Pro 3. It was resolved with the next insider build. I’ve had one BSOD, which was before they were changed to GSOD, and it was my fault. I installed an incompatible video driver. Rolling back the driver resolved the issue. In contrast to @bbearren, I do not change much in Windows. A few settings here and there. Nothing significant.

      --Joe

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      • #2007124 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody_MVP

        I’ve heard in user groups from a lot of people who don’t change anything about how Windows works, and have never had serious issues with updates and upgrades. But then I hear from other members who have thought they were doing everything “by the book” and still ended up with weird issues on their machines. I can’t find any common threads in either group, so maybe it is just luck or something very specific to individual PCs, even of the same brand and model. Maybe some third party software issues, or just some difference in browsing and download histories. Who knows?

        I don’t consider anecdotal reports of “changed nothing and haven’t had an issue” to be any assurance that this strategy is the one and only reason people have not had issues. Everyone needs to be prepared for the possibility of an update or upgrade issue. The sad fact is, most people are not prepared, and then it (sometimes) happens. Then what do you do?

        Come here of course, and learn from those of us whose “don’t mess with it” discipline is less than perfect. We have had issues — that in my case is how I learn. (Tactile-kinesthetic learning style = “hands-on” or “trial and error”.)

        -- rc primak

        • #2007167 Reply

          mn–
          AskWoody Lounger

          I can’t find any common threads in either group, so maybe it is just luck or something very specific to individual PCs, even of the same brand and model. Maybe some third party software issues, or just some difference in browsing and download histories. Who knows?

          Oh yes, luck and randomness seems to be it… which means that the coding standards aren’t very good, as error and unexpected condition handling pretty much come from there.

          There’d seem to be timing-related issues at the very least but also network dependencies, and probably disk access race conditions too.

          My “favorite” is how, apparently, some versions of Outlook (with Exchange server) may flip to a wrong folder type internally for some items if the initial account setup is done over a poor-quality network.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2006733 Reply

      Noel Carboni
      AskWoody_MVP

      W/regard to in-place upgrades in general…

      I have a VMware virtual machine config I’ve been nursing since the beginnings of Win 10 prereleases. I absolutely HAD to go through a fresh, clean install only once, around v1703 as I recall, to resolve otherwise insoluble system corruption where it simply would no longer get through Windows Updates. For all other versions, right up through v1903, I’ve done in-place upgrades and the system has survived and is functional. I will be doing a v1909 in-place upgrade very soon on it.

      That being said…

      On my office machine, which I hold to a higher standard of usability/reliability:

      I installed v1809 from scratch (i.e., NOT as an in-place upgrade) because the machine was new in January, 2019. I replaced the Dell-supplied installation, which was bloated with junkware.

      I installed v1903 from scratch because v1809 had developed a networking problem after physically moving it that installing Windows as an in-place upgrade did not resolve.

      In both cases, after the MAJOR @#$%^&* PAIN of setting things up and reconfiguring and tweaking for WEEKS (something like a month of reduced functionality and extra effort), the systems were trouble-free at the “it just works” level.

      So now, just scant months later, v1909 is ripening. Sigh.

      Will I try installing v1909 as an in-place upgrade?

      Right now I’m torn at about 60/40 on that. I think I’ll try the in-place upgrade first, then at signs of unfixable trouble I’ll just bite the bullet and do a 100% clean, fresh install. I believe such signs have a good chance of manifesting. Heavy sigh.

      Windows is simply not architected to work properly after an in-place upgrade. Long years of experience show this clearly.

      6 months is WAYYYYY too fast an upgrade schedule.

      -Noel

      3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2006813 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        Hm, based on what I have just seen on my Windows 10 VM just now, Windows 10 v1909 is NOT an in-place upgrade. The minor version number changed, i.e., build 10.0.18362.476 -> 10.0.18363.476

        The update went quicker than the 2019-11 Cumulative update. Way quicker. And didn’t leave anything corrupted or untweaked as far as I can see so far. Even things I have that use undocumented features – like Aero Glass for Win 8+ – aren’t broken by it.

        Did we just go from an in-place upgrade every 6 months to once a year?

        Not that I think that’s long enough yet, but… Yay?

        -Noel

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2006815 Reply

          PKCano
          Da Boss

          The 1903 and 1909 core are the same, they get the same CUs. THe difference (the small update) is the enablement “switches” that turn on the features that are already installed but off by default.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #2006870 Reply

            Noel Carboni
            AskWoody_MVP

            Awesome! Thanks for confirming.

            I believe what that means to a layman is that the underlying OS structure hasn’t been completely reworked, and any tunings, tweaks, tricks, etc. you’ve done to turn it into less of a pig will still likely work (not to mention your applications are all right there still).

            I’m liking this new direction of Microsoft’s!

            -Noel

            1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #2006757 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      Windows is simply not architected to work properly after an in-place upgrade. Long years of experience show this clearly.

      And therein lies the dichotomy.  Long years of experience with successful in-place upgrades and Windows Updates completing without issue have given me no reason at all to abandon the practice.  I’ve seen no problems with Windows architecture in regard to in-place upgrades/updates.

      I used virtualization for a while, but in my experience performance on hardware has always been superior, so I abandoned VM’s.  I’d much rather dual-boot or triple-boot.  I have drive imaging to save me from myself or from things that go bonk in the night, such as a house fire.  While I’ve been typing this, Robocopy was copying my drive images created in the wee hours of last night to a 3TB HDD docked in my NAS.  It finished, and I’ve undocked the HDD and put it away for safe-keeping.

      We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with Windows.  Mine may be unconventional, but I’ve had close to two decades of seeing them work without issue and providing me with extremely stable, efficient and reliable Windows installations on several iterations of hardware.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
      "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Jack Sparrow
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      • #2006871 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        Kind of depends on what you demand of it. No two people need the same things from Windows. In fact, chances are that if you (as an expert) were to sit down to my (as an expert) computer or vice versa we’d hardly recognize them as running the same operating system. Certainly we wouldn’t be able to fly through work.

        As far as virtualization performance issues go, just get an insanely powerful system. You know you deserve it. 🙂

        -Noel

        2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #2006784 Reply

      glnz
      AskWoody Plus

      My existing PC is dual-boot Win 7 Pro 64-bit and Win 10 Pro 64-bit (now at version 1903). A Dell Optiplex 7010 with Intel Core i5 3470, plenty of hard drive storage and 16GB RAM.

      So far, updates to each OS have NOT affected the other, as far as I can tell.

      Is there anything different about doing the new update of the Win 10 side to version 1909 that might affect the Win 7 side and the current, working dual-booting?

      Thanks.

    • #2007535 Reply

      bbearren
      AskWoody MVP

      Kind of depends on what you demand of it. No two people need the same things from Windows.

      I can’t disagree more.  There is only one use for Windows, and that is as a platform upon which to install and use the apps/programs that people need to perform their work.  How well Windows performs as a platform has a bearing on how efficient people are in doing their work, using their particular apps/programs.

      In fact, chances are that if you (as an expert) were to sit down to my (as an expert) computer or vice versa we’d hardly recognize them as running the same operating system. Certainly we wouldn’t be able to fly through work.

      I very highly doubt that we are engaged in the same type of work, or use the same apps/programs to accomplish that work.  I can pretty much guarantee that Windows is not going to be any sort of mysterious deterrent.

      I do some video editing, some photo editing, mapping of extensive Lat/Lon coordinates for off-road navigation, as well as some reporting.  On your machine you would not have any of the data files that I need for my work, and quite likely would not have the installed software I use, either.  And the same goes for your work on my machine.  Mine looks and acts like Windows 7 (without Libraries or Special Folders).  You would likely feel right at home, but it is highly unlikely that I would have the installed software that you use.  The Windows platform would not be an issue.

      The only point I have put forward in this thread is that upgrading new Windows versions over existing, fully updated Windows versions, rather than using a clean install, for almost two decades has been without issue for me.

      I’m not speaking as an IT Pro riding herd on a gaggle of computers in a business domain.  I’m a home user with a home network who, before I retired, used my home PC, my laptop and my Windows phone, as well as company PC’s for the work that I did.  My steadfast advice is in red in my signature.

      Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
      "The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. Savvy?"—Jack Sparrow
      "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
      "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      • #2008766 Reply

        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        There is only one use for Windows…

        What? I did a double-take when I saw that.

        Our definitions of “use” must differ. 🙂 You might as well say there is only one use for a musical instrument. Or a car.

        If you believe Windows is nothing more than a platform to boot up, install applications, then use them then you have only imagined/experienced about 5% of the goodness that a multitasking/multi-processing graphic-oriented operating system that can run on widely varying hardware systems can deliver. The Real Joy is in the integration into a toolset that fits you perfectly, and using it to cut through work like warm butter.

        -Noel

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

    Reply To: When Windows 10 Feature Updates don’t go smoothly

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