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  • Why are patches so bad?

    Home Forums AskWoody blog Why are patches so bad?

    This topic contains 22 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  anonymous 3 weeks ago.

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    • #1961428 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      https://youtu.be/S9kn8_oztsA I don’t think this is the whole problem. But it’s certainly part of the problem.
      [See the full post at: Why patches are so bad?]

      14 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1961458 Reply

      CADesertRat
      AskWoody Plus

      Yup, I watched that video the other day. Although some may not like his style, he sure has some good points about why MS is so screwed up on the patches.

      Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 馃檪
      4 Win 10 Pro currently 1809 (3 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1961461 Reply

      AJNorth
      AskWoody Plus

      As I suspected: Who’s on first?

    • #1961492 Reply

      Geo
      AskWoody Plus

      He would make a good addition to Ask Woody.聽 Pretty soon you would have many of the laid off MS testers on this site giving the fixes before MS .

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1961554 Reply

      geekdom
      AskWoody Plus

      This video provides information on the Microsoft quality control teams; the reduction-in-force was not an urban myth.

      Group G{ot backup} TestBeta
      Win7Pro 路 x64 路 SP1 路 i3-3220 路 RAM 8GB 路 Firefox: uBlock Origin - NoScript 路 HDD 路 Canon Printer 路 Microsoft Security Essentials 路 Windows: Backup - System Image - Rescue Disk - Firewall
      3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #1961570 Reply

      Fred
      AskWoody Plus

      Getting tired: it wears out always being used as a guinea pig

      PGP-ID=0x(askforit)

    • #1961622 Reply

      WildBill
      AskWoody Plus

      Not bad; mostly entertaining & informative. Especially as to why M$ is having problems catching & accidentally creating bugs now. It’s making me think twice about upgrading to Win10 1909…

      Windows 8.1, 64-bit, leaning toward returning to Group A... & toward Windows 10 V1909. As long as it's a Lot Less Buggy!
      Wild Bill Rides Again...

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1961658 Reply

        anonymous

        Twice and then some as far as Windows 10, but you’re on 8.1 so no hurry until 2023! And what third party UI software do you make use of to tame the 8.1 TIFKAM on your system?

        • #1961786 Reply

          WildBill
          AskWoody Plus

          Don’t need any. Win8.1 lets me boot to the desktop & I can ignore it. I have frequently used UWP apps pinned to the taskbar.

          Windows 8.1, 64-bit, leaning toward returning to Group A... & toward Windows 10 V1909. As long as it's a Lot Less Buggy!
          Wild Bill Rides Again...

          • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by  WildBill.
    • #1961661 Reply

      OscarCP
      AskWoody Plus

      Thanks for the link to the video.

      Crowd-sourcing works very well in scientific research that requires analyzing lots of data and would take many hours of expensive supercomputer time or else actual expert eyes on the data. For example: looking for evidence of potentially planet-forming disks around stars in telescopic photos, or letting any CPU-free time in the user’s PC be used to run a program that does numerical tests as part of the search for the answer to a mathematical problem that can be solved in a finite, but very large, number of steps. But these are all things that either do not require any expertise from part of the members of the crowd (just letting some software run on background), or some expertise, yes, but one that is easy to teach and can be learned quickly; for example, learning how to distinguish stars with planet-forming rings from other stars with some unusual features that might look a bit like that, but really are of a totally different kind.

      But crowd-sourcing a good part of the testing of a whole operating system after installing updates to it that are still in need of testing… Well, that is a different thing altogether. I believe that this point is explained clearly and well in the video.

      But I doubt it is likely to change things any time soon. If a company valued at close to a trillion $US is run by people that think it worthwhile to get rid of the testing division of their main product, because it is important to save some of the money so spent by replacing that division with a cheaper way of doing things, I can’t see what can possibly change their, let’s find a nice name for that… Ah, yes: “minds”.

      Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W(?) + Mac&Lx

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1961704 Reply

        anonymous

        But to any folks that are not volunteering as part of the insider network this is actually more like crowd-foisting and that’s really not the way to treat the end users that just want a stable OS experience.

        That part about MS being valued at close to 1 Trillion makes me really think that maybe that can be broken/divided up into some consumer and enterprise companies/divisions each with their own management and maybe a better overall experience all around for PC and Laptop聽 end users.

        Look at HP enterprise and HP Inc. And that’s maybe an option that’s better for MS than what’s currently occurring. But If MS continues down this path that it’s currently following then open source/Linux, or BSD/Other,聽 may be the way to go and that’s crowd sourced with everybody able to look at the actual source code and compile their own for the most part and everybody contributing to the both the Kernel and the UI/User Space development.

        The way that MS is currently plumbing in that Windows subsystem for Linux has me wondering just what is in store for the future and MS is really more interested in the Cloud and Cloud Services business model and that Virtual Windows Desktop that can have MS’s end users actually moved onto those very same Cloud聽instances that MS uses for doing the OS testing on now instead of any actual OEM hardware, as is stated in this very video for testing the OS.

        Maybe that’s MS’s end game all along for Windows 10 and its client end users on that virtual Windows/Azure hosted desktop in the cloud. I can’t help but to imagine what the PC/Laptop OEMs may be thinking if their hardware sales are limited to only mostly portable thin client like laptops and mini desktop thin client like PCs. And all that聽sure looks like Google’s Chromebook and the Chrome OS/Software ecosystem to me.

        Well if you can not beat them with your current business model then join them in using their business model and Google/Alphabet is another close to a Trillion dollar market cap company.

        • #1961755 Reply

          OscarCP
          AskWoody Plus

          Anonymous: I like your changing “crowd sourcing” into “crow foisting” (I was thinking only about those users volunteering to test the patches).

          But, while one might consider as the correct one your own explanation of the likely plan at MS to move all Windows 10 users to the Cloud, why fire the quality control testers first, years before that move, when Windows 10 was still a new product with not a lot of market share? Why not wait until much later, maybe a year or more from now, when everybody using a supported Windows OS聽 will count for most of Windows users, before making this move that, so far, has mostly annoyed and irritated people and created a good deal of bad press?

          So I am still thinking that “minds” is a kind word to use for what might be going on between the ears of top MS executives making the big policy decisions there, these days.

          Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W(?) + Mac&Lx

          • #1961929 Reply

            Ascaris
            AskWoody_MVP

            …why fire the quality control testers first, years before that move, when Windows 10 was still a new product with not a lot of market share? Why not wait until much later, maybe a year or more from now, when everybody using a supported Windows OS will count for most of Windows users…

            So, you’re asking why MS didn’t hold back on the pain train until Windows 10 gets most of the Windows market share?

            Perhaps… they are.聽 If this is them holding back until most of the Win 7 holdouts are corralled, what do they have in store when they have the entire Windows market in the line of fire?

            In a more practical sense, Microsoft canned the beta testers now because they wanted to save the money now.聽 Making end users beta test their own paid software product is, of course, bad for them, but it’s good for Microsoft.聽 Nothing about Windows 10, or its development cycle, was designed around the needs of the users… it is all about serving Microsoft’s interests, and this is no exception.

            The reduced patch quality after firing the testers was predictable, so it is reasonable to think that this is all part of the plan.聽 While the update madness may have delayed Windows 10 adoption, for most people, it won’t prevent it.聽 While a few of us will escape to Linux or Mac, most will give in eventually.聽 Many already have.

            Quite evidently, MS is really not all that concerned about consumers anymore.聽 The poor patch quality hits consumers using home versions harder than big corporations with professional IT departments that manage their own updates using the enterprise version of 10.聽 Using consumers as cannon fodder to serve corporate customers… all part of the plan.

            Whatever you may say about the ethics or fairness of the methods, it would be difficult to deny that they have worked for Microsoft.聽 Despite Windows 10’s hostility to users, and especially consumer-level users, it’s still growing in market share.聽 Even if users could find enough licenses to move to Windows 8.1 en masse, it would still only delay the inevitable.聽 For people who perceive Windows as indispensable, it will be hard to avoid 10.

             

            Group "L" (KDE Neon User Edition 5.16.5).

            5 users thanked author for this post.
            • #1961941 Reply

              OscarCP
              AskWoody Plus

              Ascaris: “Whatever you may say about the ethics or fairness of the methods, it would be difficult to deny that they have worked for Microsoft. Despite Windows 10鈥檚 hostility to users, and

              Actually I was not arguing about the ethics or fairness of the methods of the individuals running MS at present, but about their sanity. I am not going to repeat an argument I’ve already made, so I merely copy the relevant part of it here, something Ascaris inadvertently left out when quoting from the same reply of mine:

              But I doubt it [something like the publication of the video that Woody gave us a link to watch] is likely to change things any time soon. If a company valued at close to a trillion $US is run by people that think it worthwhile to get rid of the testing division of their then main product, because it is important to save some of the money so spent by replacing that division with a cheaper way of doing things, I can鈥檛 see what can possibly change their, let鈥檚 find a nice name for that鈥 Ah, yes: 鈥渕inds鈥.”

              And yes, the idea to move just about everything to the “Cloud” has boosted enormously MS market value. Commodifying bad mortgages also kept big financial institutions nicely humming along for some time, until it did not (2008, remember?) So what is success in the stock market and brings fat earnings to investors and big executives is not necessarily a great idea, longer term. Bubbles come and go; the damage they cause when they finally burst, that stays longer.

              Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W(?) + Mac&Lx

              1 user thanked author for this post.
            • #1962550 Reply

              anonymous

              Microsoft has market share and attrition on their side and the fact that all new hardware gets Windows聽 10 and only 10 going forward. And that’s a fact that can not be avoided that gives MS the upper hand in the long run and allows it to lord over the mostly captive Windows OS dominated PC/Laptop OS market segment.

              In the PC/Laptop OS market of mostly “independent” third party PC/Laptop OEMs that are wedded to the Windows OS/Application ecosystem that ball is firmly in MS’s possession and no traveling rules apply so that ball can be very tightly grasped all the way to the peach basket of captive market monetization and not much choice in the matter for the end users .

              It’s very much, with respect to the NON-Apple PC/Laptop OS market, an identical situation to that of the local Cable/ISP market where there is only really one majority provider in that area and not much competition. So the OS’s end users are able to be tacitly used as unwilling BETA testers without the end users having much say in the matter.

            • #1962647 Reply

              OscarCP
              AskWoody Plus

              Anonymous #1962550 , MS has all the characteristics that you mention, but, to me at least, that alone does not explain why the got rid of the Windows quality control people and replaced it with the cheaper but unsatisfactory alternative that they then put, and still have, in place. To me this still looks to me as both unnecessary and, yes, nuts. MS has so much money that a few millions saved annually that way should have made no real difference to their finances. But the result has been to damage their reputation as providers of a very important service to people in modern societies when, clearly, for many of those people is going to be hard to replace this service with existing alternatives. Whether they are powerful enough to shrug the whole thing off and let their customers pay for the consequences of their wrong-headed policies, impresses me as possible, but not as a given.

              Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W(?) + Mac&Lx

    • #1962019 Reply

      Spot on, as far as it went.

      What I wonder about is why previous cost-cutting methods like outsourcing, insourcing (Hoovering up H1B Visas from overseas body shops) didn’t save them enough money BEFORE also they fired the QA/QC staff?

      I guess Nadella and friends needed more than one hardware refit per year on their yachts…

      Again, : https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2019/09/20

      There’s a line from an old Bogart movie where he tells the gangster (Edward G. Robinson) what it is that the gangster really wants:

      “More.”

      It’s always about money. <sigh>.

      Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit, Dell Latitude E6330, Intel CORE i5 "Ivy Bridge", Group "Wait for the all-clear", Multiple Air-Gapped backup drives in different locations, "Don't check for updates-Full Manual Mode."
      --
      "...All the people, all the time..." (Peter Ustinov ad-lib from "Logan's Run")

    • #1962290 Reply

      doriel
      AskWoody Lounger

      I see the biggest problem is lack of alternatives. Average people just do not have any sufficient alternative, or they do not know about it, or they dont have enough money to buy MAC, or they do not have enough knowledge to just install Linux.

      Or they just want to stick to Windows because it offers good-known environment.

      Shouldnt there be some “antimonopol police”, which could tell, that M$ is abusing “Win 10 Home edition” users? Or at least somebody should officially point out, that this behavior is immoral and focused just on making money and nice PR chitchat.

      Microsoft is providing service (Windows), that seems to be unreliable and frustrating.

      Lets follow CERN and create our own distro of Linux 馃檪

      I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
      --- Thomas A. Edison

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #1962643 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        There are anti monopoly laws, some of ancient data (in the US, all the way back to when Teddy Roosevelt was President, back in the 1890’s, with several additions and updates since). Often the problem is not the absence of laws. The problem is an absence of enforcement of the laws that already exist.

        http://www.ushistory.org/us/43b.asp

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W(?) + Mac&Lx

      • #1962687 Reply

        anonymous

        There is also the question of whether antitrust or racketeering criminal law even applies in this situation. Your introductory cushion says

        I see the biggest problem is lack of alternatives. Average people just do not have any sufficient alternative, or they do not know about it, or they dont have enough money to buy MAC, or they do not have enough knowledge to just install Linux.

        When you name two viable alternatives immediately after saying there is a lack of alternatives your argument weakens. Microsoft may be the biggest bully on the block at the point where the user meets the system. But that does not automatically make them a legal monopoly. User choice is a factor. And users continue to choose, for their own requirements, Microsoft Windows.

        To break a bully, build a more attractive option.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #1962544 Reply

      NetDef
      AskWoody_MVP

      Oh, NOW I see this post!

      I should have posted my comments about this video here, instead of on the other thread this morning. <sigh>

      Has MS cleaned up its Win10-update mess? (Spoiler: No!)

      ~ Group "Weekend" ~

    • #1962576 Reply

      MrJimPhelps
      AskWoody_MVP

      When you get rid of your testing department with their decades of experience testing YOUR PRODUCTS, you are going to miss a lot of the bugs. A human being with decades of experience is going to have a gut feeling about many little things and will therefore be able to detect a lot of bugs on intuition alone.

      It will take a very long time to get AI / telemetry up to the level that the human testing department was at. It may never get at that level.

      Penny wise and pound foolish.

      Group "L" (Linux Mint)
      with Windows 8.1 running in a VM
      • #1962659 Reply

        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        MrJimPhelps: “It will take a very long time to get AI / telemetry up to the level that the human testing department was at. It may never get at that level.

        I am inclined to agree with this, and to agree most heartily. I have seen now, for decades, AI being announced as the next wonder of the age, with many very important and varied applications just around the corner and about to transform fundamentally human society into a new type where working for a living is no longer necessary (or even possible).

        While recognizing the undeniable progress made in related areas as a result of the current push for developing more advanced algorithms to solve complex scientific problems — and also not so complex problems of daily life, I am not declaring here that this will never happen. I am merely pointing out that in the AI business, from the late Sixties through today, there has been “plenty of shells but few nuts” as an old Spanish saying goes. Or that this has been and continues to be “Much Ado About Nothing”, if you prefer a corresponding and just as old English one. Playing chess well enough to defeat the reigning World Champion, or Go, likewise, are impressive feats, but the “winners” are limited to doing very well just one thing and one thing only. Work on making AI algorithms both more flexible and more able to understand human speech and gestures, with a sort of rudimentary “theory of mind”, or the ability to”put oneself in someone else’s shoes”, is under way but not anywhere near the end, just at the very beginning.

        The question of when and if AI will ever fulfill all the grand promises made by those working on perfecting it strikes me as similar to the grand promises made about nuclear fusion and its promise to provide energy with negligible pollution, to be ecology-friendly and not to emit gases that warm the atmosphere, or damage its protective ozone layer — and all that without producing significant radioactive waste. I hope this will happen, sooner than later. But will it? We’ll see.

         

        Windows 7 Professional, SP1, x64 Group B & macOS + Linux (Mint) => Win7 Group W(?) + Mac&Lx

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