Why is an eighth-generation or later Intel processor needed?

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What is so significantly different in the eighth-generation processors that earlier generations won’t run Windows 11, even if they meet all the other requirements?

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https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/06/28/update-on-windows-11-minimum-system-requirements/

”

1. Devices upgraded to Windows 11 will be in a supported and reliable state. By choosing CPUs that have adopted the new Windows Driver model and are supported by our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience.”

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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So it sounds like it’s not only the gen 8+ CPUs and the TPM that will be required. Looks like MS is tightening down the other allowable hardware as well. What’s next? Requiring PCs to only install MS drivers.

Sounds like it’s time for the build-it-yourself-I-want-my-way geeks to give up and go home.

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JohnW, wavy, Melvin, Cybertooth

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I read it that Gen8’s have the certification and depending on the vendor they may go back and open it up for more Gen7’s

Apple doesn’t allow anyone to build it yourself – it’s the same model.  Ransomware is a big fat hairy deal and it’s going to take some big fat hairy changes in how Windows deals with code.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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[RANT]

Is ransomware really that big of a deal or just an excuse to sell new hardware/software? Last time I looked, all you need to defeat ransomeware is good current offline layered backups. Am I missing something here? Of course a little intelligence behind the keyboard doesn’t hurt either!

[/RANT]

😎

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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JohnW, wavy, hitokage

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RetiredGeek wrote:

Is ransomware really that big of a deal or just an excuse to sell new hardware/software? Last time I looked, all you need to defeat ransomeware is good current offline layered backups. Am I missing something here?

Have you not read that virtually all ransomware in the last couple of years also steals data and threatens to distribute it (as well as encrypt it)?

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Yes it’s that big of a deal. Granted enterprises won’t be able to afford Windows 11 hardware for years… but it really is that big of a deal.

Restoration of an entire network takes time. You want to nip it in the bud before it hits.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Susan,

Of course, I was talking about Home or small LANs.

Any enterprise who gets hit with ramsomeware in my opinion needs to replace their IT staff and maybe their CFO if the problem was budget driven. Enterprise level setups should be locked down tight as a drum and employees should be made aware of the consequences of not following policy and those policies should be strictly enforced all the way to the top!

Strict separation of Operational systems should be enforced and Marketing (Facebook, Twitter, etc.) should be done on systems that are NOT connected to the Operational network.

If the operational network needs external connections it should be done on PRIVATE (Enterprise Run) VPN connections and with full encryption encryption using the longest keys reasonably possible.

IMHO network isolation is the only way to fully protect against zero day attacks.

But then again, maybe I’m just hopelessly out of date and/or touch.

That’s it for me on this thread, as most of you know I rarely get involved with other than technical issues but I just couldn’t hold back on this 0ne, sorry.

😎

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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_lightshow, wavy, hitokage, Melvin, Cybertooth

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https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/06/28/update-on-windows-11-minimum-system-requirements/

….including ensuring we have the ability for Windows Insiders to install Windows 11 on 7th generation processors
to give us more data about performance and security,….

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I read this as meaning MS wants to make DCH drivers mandatory. Geeks, gamers, and the DIY crowd will not be too happy if this is the case. I don’t want to “give up and go home”.

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Cybertooth

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The CPU itself has to support the “Windows driver model?”

That sounds a bit fishy to me. I suspect we’re being flim-flammed here.

There is nothing in the description at the above link (in the description of the “Windows driver model”) that would suggest that level of hardware support is required. The little bit about “let’s test it on gen-7 and see how stable it is, and maybe we’ll support it” does not sound like it requires any special features in silicon. Either it has those features or it does not.

If it’s not about being supported in silicon, they’re just flat out lying to us when they say it is, as they were when they said that Kaby and later CPUs required the special magic in Windows 10 and would not run older versions of Windows adequately (which they were able to do before MS sent out the Trojan horse to break 7 and 8.x updates on Kaby and later architectures, deliberately opening the door to third party malware).

There’s no reason that Windows 11 could not be written to not require TPM, or any given generation of CPU, or any such other thing, just as it always has been. Those who want the benefits of those things would be free to buy a PC with them, just as they always have, but not everyone has the same needs. A gamer doesn’t need the same protection against ransomware that an enterprise customer might.

The Windows platform was always the one where you had the choice, where you could choose things according to your need rather than on someone else’s business model. It was under this model that MS grew from the company that no one was sure could truly develop its own OS (especially for business use!) without IBM’s support into what it is now.

What Apple “allows” is not really relevant, as the model is quite different. Apple does not allow its OS to be installed on computers made by Dell, Acer, Asus, HP, or Lenovo, nor does it offer it as a boxed software product. Apple is a hardware company that also develops the OSes for its own products, while MS is clearly primarily a software company, one whose software runs on pretty much anything (as it long has).

There’s no reason so far that PC builders can’t keep doing as they are doing. You can buy 8th generation and later motherboards and CPUs in component form, with TPM 2.o support. Whatever the requirements MS may throw at them, the motherboard makers can make products that meet them, if their customers are still interested in Windows, and if MS doesn’t set up a whitelist of motherboards that it will allow Windows to work on (similar to how Apple makes sure MacOS runs on actual Macs).

If MS does attempt to remove the builders, I would hope they’d keep the self-built PCs and skip the Windows.

I wonder if this isn’t a plan to tell broad swaths of the consumer PC market that they can’t have this wonderful new thing, which (with human nature being as it is) will make people want the forbidden fruit all the more. When MS “generously” gives in and decides to let people with lesser PCs have Windows 11, they will be eager to get it, in contrast to the way Windows 10 was received, where people were downloading aftermarket programs to prevent 10 from being imposed on them. That would also have the effect of tamping down any complaints about the more consumer unfriendly bits of Windows 11; after all, they’re lucky just to have the privilege of running it!

All in all, I can’t say the announcement of Win 11 has made me think I erred when I left Windows behind.

 

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Pim, teuhasn2, Cybertooth

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No local accounts and forcing front facing cameras on laptops after 2023.

 

No thanks.

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The eighth-generation processors were released in 2018, but this document on Windows Drivers is dated April 2020?
So it seems that a processor released in 2018 will comply with a document released two years later, but processors released before 2018 won’t comply!
Further on in the “Update on Windows 11 minimum system requirements” it says “As we release to Windows Insiders and partner with our OEMs, we will test to identify devices running on Intel 7th generation and AMD Zen 1 that may meet our principles.”
Is what they really mean that they have tested eighth-generation and later processors, but not earlier ones?
As various people have commented, it appears the only people who are going to gain from Windows 11 will be the OEM manufacturers, and the malware operators who can target people who continue using perfectly adequate Windows 10 systems after the OS is officially eol and therefore security issues are not being patched.

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rc primak

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Steve Dispensa (Microsoft) stated:

“There are more requirements than just TPM 2.0 support (and all supported chipsets should have TPM 2.0, so that’s not generally a blocking requirement).”

Sort of vague, but his follow-up statement is more revealing:

“The chipset requirement is based on a bunch of factors, including supportability, capabilities, quality, and reliability so we can ensure everyone has a great experience.”

So, what does this mean? Microsoft seems to be lumping CPUs together with associated chipsets. Maybe the CPU is passable, but the supporting chipset isn’t (or hasn’t passed certification testing yet).

Microsoft has acknowledged they have to be more specific, especially as it pertains to recent CPUs and chipsets. Also, they need to clarify what effect CPU vulnerabilities (i.e Spectre, side-channel) had in the cut-off decision.

Microsoft is being firm about the TPM 2.0/UEFI requirement, but my sense is that they’re open to expanding the CPU list. It’s not set in stone. They are well aware of the push-back in comments to articles such as:

(ArsTechnica) Here’s what you’ll need to upgrade to Windows 11

For those interested:

Official MS Windows 11 Specs (PDF)

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rc primak, Melvin

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IMHO it’s Intel/AMD coming to agreement with Microsoft on supportability which then drives these decisions.  Anytime we use age old computers to run Microsoft’s latest OS, guess who is the loser?

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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rc primak

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ah yes, ‘WinTel’ all over again.. tsk!

Win8.1/R2 Hybrid lives on..

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rc primak

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From what I’ve read, it all has to do with TPM 2.0, in other words processor security. But you can run TPM 2.0 via software on a TPM 2.0 compatible processor (architecture of the chip set) or as a result of having an actual TPM socket and chip on the motherboard. Some Kaby Lake processors (7th Gen.) will run TPM 2.0 and some will not. For instance an Intel Core i7-7700 processor in a desktop computer (K) will run TPM 2.0 and can probably be upgraded from the latest version of Windows 10 to Windows 11; but the laptop version of that same processor (H) is actually a different processor in its architecture, and will not run Trusted Platform Module 2.0. It’s my understanding that many, perhaps most, laptop pc’s built before 2018 do not have motherboards with a place for a TPM chip. Mine was built in the Fall of 2017 and has an Intel Core i7-7700HQ processor and no TPM compatible motherboard, and that processor is not TPM 2.0 compatible either.

 

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Since ~2013, Intel and AMD added firmware TPM technology to many of their CPUs that perform the same functionality as a TPM 2.0 processor without the need of a dedicated TPM module. TPMs have been required for Windows certified devices since 2015.

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rc primak

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My 6th Gen Skylake core-i5 in my Intel NUC-PC does pass the TPM 2.0 test in WhyNot11, Version 2.3.1.0. The ONLY point of “failure” is in the name of the chip.

What else in the Skylake generation chips prevents anything in Windows 11 from running as it should?

WHERE’S THE BEEF??

-- rc primak

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I’d have thought that MS would have made a distinction point on CPU’s related to the ‘meltdown’ design flaws, which would allow more CPU’s into the Windows 11 arena.
What’s to say TPM is safe when for years, as an example, intel have been distributing flawed CPU’s since too long? Funny how we N E V E R hear of ‘meltdown’ after the panic fiasco of 2017/18 that just slows down performance on intel CPU’s.
Windows, it was fun when you could upgrade internal parts without invalidating anything. Hasta la Vista..

Win8.1/R2 Hybrid lives on..

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rc primak, Cybertooth

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I agree. Spectre/meltdown are a concern for the business community, government, edu and cloud providers, but not so much for end-users who aren’t likely to be targeted by state actors. I disabled mitigations on my 4790k machine for performance reasons (and no, I’m not recommending that anyone else do this). I’m still waiting for an attack in the wild that targets consumers.

I raise the question only because I want clarity from Microsoft. Like you, I know I’m going to get bombarded by family, friends, neighbors, etc. demanding to know why they can’t upgrade to Win 11 with their reasonably new computer.

I do understand the security model Microsoft is trying to accomplish with Windows 11 and actually to a large extent agree with it, but is it overkill for Grandma who only uses a computer for social media? Does she have to throw out her perfectly functioning computer?

Microsoft simply stating that Win 10 is supported until 2025 isn’t good enough in my book. People with expensive, fairly new hardware deserve a better explanation as to why they can’t upgrade to all the new bells and whistles. After all, a computer isn’t a phone and given the fact that Intel sat on it’s rear end rehashing the same old architecture year after year until AMD kicked them where it hurts ……

I gotta calm down ….

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rc primak, _lightshow, Melvin

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As luck would have it, a couple of weeks before Microsoft disclosed that grandma’s computer would not be able to run Windows 11, I moved her to a Linux distro. She gets a centered dock, and the upcoming version of the distro will have rounded corners, too.

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rc primak

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Did you leave a Mint? (Sorry …)

Did Grandma freak out or did things go as planned?

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No Mint. I set up a dual-boot Windows 10/Linux system, but she’s happily using Linux only.

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rc primak

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Linux anybody?

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Don’t mind if I do!

(Ok, so I already did, but let’s pretend I didn’t so I can make the pithy remark!)

Seems the only way to go if you want to keep your hardware and run a supported OS past 2025 for many… though I do strongly suspect that they will walk these restrictions back before then, and that this has been the plan from the start.

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon
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rc primak

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Sooner or later, Linux will have to deal with Ransomware and firmware malware too.

That said, Spectre-Meltdown is for most consumers a bogeyman.

-- rc primak

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Kickbacks from CPU makers

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rc primak

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I knew I had a late Kaby Lake so I checked BIOS and yes it’s TPM 2.0, but apparently in itself that is not the limiting factor, and this is being talked about increasingly on the web.  Just what is it about an 8th gen, or is it simply an arbitrary point set to easily allow or dis-allow a computer? Do we in fact know? After all, how would the opsys installer be able to tell if a system were to be allowed – it would have to be relatively easy. cpu gen is easy to check.

Ransomware will always be with us, regardless of the operating system as long as there are people who will click on links with no regard for what they are – in other words, forever. You can’t realistically program against stupidity/ignorance.

Yep, the linux crowd will be noisy again, but I can’t run my brokerage app on that, among many other things.

As usual, MS throws us into a tizzy, but, then, life goes on.

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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rc primak

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Carl wrote:

MS wants to make DCH drivers mandatory

Correct. No more .inf drivers.

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rc primak

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I can’t tell you the number of times I edited .infs to make drivers work when they otherwise would not. I don’t like hearing, “Your hardware is not supported, so go buy something else,” and having editable .infs often helped to make that “not supported” magically go away. It’s not something that “regular” users would or should be required to do, but it worked for me. At least I can still do things like that (and much more) in my new OS!

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, KDE Neon
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, KDE Neon (and Win 11)

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rc primak

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Susan Bradley wrote:

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/06/28/update-on-windows-11-minimum-system-requirements/

”

1. Devices upgraded to Windows 11 will be in a supported and reliable state. By choosing CPUs that have adopted the new Windows Driver model and are supported by our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience.”

So the new W11 will have a 1 in 500 chance of crashing at any instant??

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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rc primak

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No. Lifetime.

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rc primak

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MS is just helping us spend those unspent Stimulus checks and move the economy forward. We should thank them …

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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rc primak, Alex5723

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Please note, throughout this entire discussion I am only trying to get the theoretical case against 6th Gen and 7th Gen Intel chips. I do intend to buy a new Intel NUC-PC for two reasons:

1. My motherboard is over five years old in its design and has been run hard in a dual-boot environment since 2016. That’s getting risky in terms of lifespan of many components, not just the internal M.2 SSD.
2. The NUC-PC has never consistently shut down from Windows or Linux, indicating a microcode flaw or a BIOS/EFI firmware issue. Possibly also a power supply issue, as this problem has gotten significantly worse over the past four months or so.

So my questions are more theoretical than practical. No way am I making this little PC my everyday workhorse for another five years!

Due to its age, I do not intend to reuse my SSD in my new NUC-PC build. The RAM might still be useful, but it too has a finite lifespan. The RAM in my new build would also be 16GB. That’s still adequate for a consumer PC. Ports also have changed, so that’s another reason to upgrade.

My intel-based (core-m3) Chromebook also will go out of OS support within the next few years. But in there all I have to do is remove the internal write-protect screw, reflash the firmware, and voila, it’s a Linux laptop! (With a crazy keyboard layout, which I can remap.) (And crazy internal hardware, which GalliumOS pretty well covers with drivers.) So my portable PC is still good to go, hardware-wise.

Linux isn’t “cool” — but it WORKS!! (If you know or are willing to learn HOW it works, that is…)

-- rc primak

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Yeah, at some point I will upgrade to a better cpu. In the end (Oct) they will probably let me run 11 anyway now.  I will keep my win10 build current for now.  I realize I will have to get a 500GB M.2 because my 250 is full. Of stuff…. But I did go way back on my swearing to myself (to avoid further attempts at linux) and put up Mint Cinnamon 20.1 (now 20.2) and found the problem I was having with wine (actually winetricks)(DON’T use the one from Software Mgr!!! – it is out of date), and put up VMware with win10 21H1 that runs Schwab SSE just fine(so I can lose money in the stock market more efficiently!), and I installed Macrium so I could get the latest rescue iso’s, and run Rufus since that is by far the best iso to stick thing there is.(Can’t fathom why somebody in all of linuxdom can’t come up with a similar EASY Rufus-type solution (yeah I know about the command line solutions but come-on!!!!!!). ) Caveat – for NWN2 I installed with wine to an external SSD to save 12GB M.2 space. Did install VMware to the M.2 but gotta watch as windows likes to grow – just spend an hour reducing SxS back to 5GB. At the moment Mint is only taking 40GB(out of 117)(which is why I have to get a 500GB……) And I will  likely avoid the monthly win updates(I use WUMgr) – we’ll see on that. FF just updated to 90 and didn’t kill me so there’s hope… (89, did, for a bit).  Somebody here got me started with VMware and Mint forum folks have been very helpful with it for the few questions I had.  Be well.

EDIT: I run NWN enhanced under steam because it is kept much more up to date than GOG’s version(which I have and doesn’t work).

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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So for Linux, UNetBootin or the built-in Mint/Ubuntu Disk Creator aren’t working for you?

-- rc primak

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Not for Macrium or Clonezilla – not bootable. not for others. Don’t have time to check each and every thing when Rufus just works. 🙂 Should have one linux app that works for almost all. Simple. It’s little things like that that drive folks who want to convert to linux, away……

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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unetbootin not in Mint Software Mgr.

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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What is Mint/Ubuntu Disk Creator – where? actual name?

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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Startup Disk Creator in Ubuntu. Built in feature.I don’t use Mint, so I don’t know what they may call it or if it’s included.

-- rc primak

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Mint Software Mgr says I have “Mintstick” – can’t find it.
Found “USB Image Writer” – burns bootable Macrium Rescue, and Clonezilla. Did not test.

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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USB Image Writer — that could be it. Try it — it may serve your needs. It doesn’t take a lot of time or effort to try. Otherwise, the Aomei or Macrium Reflect WinPE/WinRE environments can run many portable programs which are placed onto the same USB flash drive stick. I run Microsoft Safety Scanner (Windows Defender-based external Windows malware scanner) from my Macrium Reflect Rescue Media USB Flash Drive stick.

You have to add a PPA via the Command Line, but Mint or Ubuntu can run UNetBootin:

https://unetbootin.github.io/linux_download.html

Setting up Clonezilla Live on USB — several methods:

USB setup with GNU/Linux
GNU/Linux Method B: Tuxboot

https://clonezilla.org/liveusb.php#linux-method-b

or

GNU/Linux Method C: Unetbootin

https://clonezilla.org/liveusb.php#linux-method-c

Ignore the Not Recommended warnings. This method works just fine in Ubuntu and Mint.

I think these methods should be fairly simple and quick, and they do produce reliable results.

-- rc primak

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Needed to have a boot-repair-disk on hand so grabbed latest iso. In Mint, If you click on “start” icon and type usb you will see it has “USB stick formater” and “USB image writer” built in. Started “USB image writer” and gave it the iso and pointed to my stick. When I clicked Write, the stick indicator clicked off – I figured it was ntfs so started “USB stick formatter” and formatted it fat32. First click it rejected it, then it formatted it. Then “USB image writer” was able to write it. Booted to it to check and it seems fine. Very nice. Looks like these 2 may be the answer to my bitching! 🙂

I wonder if I should have rescatux on hand as well?

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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null delete

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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Sorry?  I don’t see a pending post?

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Many thanks – The post 2 above was auto marked pending – no idea why.

Some one else must have released it. No idea why it got marked. post above  with @ sb was then edited by me to “null delete”.

Again, Many thanks!

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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Was just thinking about this. A company says “everybody go buy a new computer”. And they do.

 

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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rc primak

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Weird, until you realize the power of FOMO (Fear  of Missing Out).

-- rc primak

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JohnW

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yup. They do have the power. Just watch everybody follow. There is always a tiny percentage of complainers but everybody else gets a new computer. Hard to watch…

- Thinkpad P15s Gen1 20T4-002KUS, i7-10510U, UEFI/GPT, 16GB, Sammy 500GB M.2. others. - Mint 21.2 Xfce w Vbox-win10 for most, Mint 21.2 Cinn Edge w wine for games, Win 11 Pro 23H2 WU. HP laserjets M254dw & P1606dn, Epson 2480 scanner. External monitor Dell S3221QS.

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rc primak

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Planned obsolescence! All about selling new machines for their partners because MS can’t put out a decent product on their own. Windows Phone? Surface? Don’t get me wrong, I’d be using both of those products if they worked and were dependable.

Never Say Never

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I don’t know if Microsoft planned the Surface line to become obsolete. I think they didn’t have years of experience in the hardware market, and didn’t know just what consumers wanted and would pay for. That culture is changing but will probably never equal the hardware, OS and software ecosystem integration which Apple has achieved. In any event, the Surface line is due for a refresh, and it appears with Windows 11, that refresh will be coming. Probably at the end of 2021 or early 2022.

-- rc primak

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