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  • Win10 Creators Update will not install on some Atom/Clover Trail computers

    Home Forums AskWoody blog Win10 Creators Update will not install on some Atom/Clover Trail computers

    This topic contains 29 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  anonymous 1 week, 1 day ago.

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    • #125206 Reply

      woody
      Da Boss

      A damning report from Ed Bott on ZDNet.
      [See the full post at: Win10 Creators Update will not install on some Atom/Clover Trail computers]

    • #125212 Reply

      Jan K.
      AskWoody Lounger

      I think, I understand now…

      Microsoft is a secret Linux fanboy and wants to push as many users away as possible!

      Excellent!

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #125213 Reply

        Cybertooth
        AskWoody Lounger

        Or maybe, in light of slowing PC sales, MS made a deal with OEMs to push people into buying new computers at a faster rate…

      • #125320 Reply

        ch100
        AskWoody MVP

        Certainly so.
        Intel says Clover Trail Atom CPUs can’t run Linux
        https://www.geek.com/chips/intel-says-clover-trail-atom-cpus-cant-run-linux-1515927/

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #125367 Reply

          anonymous

          Meh, I’d like to see proof that a Linux kernel cannot boot using any of these Atom processors.

        • #125369 Reply

          Jan K.
          AskWoody Lounger

          Right!

          I’ll take my Microsoft Linux fanboy theory of the table then! 😀

      • #125352 Reply

        anonymous

        Fyi, these cheap low-end Intel Atom OEM Win 8/8.1/10 2-in-1 tablets are a special beast or scam introduced by the OEMs and/or M$.
        …Like they say, if it’s too good to be true, it usually ain’t or there’s no free lunch in this world.

        Even though these modern OEM Windows tablets use UEFI/Secure Boot technology, they are configured and optimized by the OEMs to use 32bit Windows and software(not UEFI 64bit), eg because maximum allowable RAM is 2GB and slow-performing Intel Atom processors.

        Nearly all modern Linux 32bit ISO do not have support for UEFI since UEFI/GPT technology had been standardized internationally for 64bit OS and software, ie only modern Linux 64bit ISO have support for UEFI. 64bit is better than 32bit, but 64bit requires higher hardware specs.

        Surprisingly or “miraculously”, M$’s Win 8/8.1/10 32bit ISO have support for UEFI. Collusion.?
        … To install Win 8/8.1/10 32bit, the 32bit device drivers from the OEM website have to be preinstalled first since the ISO do not have the drivers included. No missing drivers problem if re-image Windows.

        Hence, Linux 32bit could not yet be installed on such Intel Atom Clover Trail tablets.
        … At the moment Linux 32bit can be installed on most older Intel Atom Bay Trail OEM tablets by preinstalling the bootia32.efi file but a few things may not work because of missing drivers, eg Bluetooth, camera and sound.

        • #125376 Reply

          anonymous

          The above is an example of OEM computers being locked to Windows.

          Another eg is new high-end OEM Ultrabooks being locked to Win 10 through Intel RST/fake-RAID disk mode, eg Lenovo Yoga 900-13ISK, Ideapad 710, Dell XPS 13, etc. It takes a tech-geek to unlock them, eg to install Linux alongside Win 10 as a dual-boot.

        • #125592 Reply

          anonymous

          My apologies – correction;

          Linux cannot be installed on 2012-released Intel Atom Clover Trail Win 8 tablets because of the proprietary integrated PowerVR GPU chip, and not because of Intel’s power management requirements or 32bit UEFI.

          The 2014-released Acer Iconia A1-830 tablet with Intel Atom Clover Trail processor runs Android 4.2.1.
          https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/01/acer-walks-down-clover-trail-with-x86-android-tablet/

    • #125221 Reply

      rc primak
      AskWoody Lounger

      This is an issue of outdated drivers and firmware. Both of these issues can be fixed. It is up to the OEM manufacturers to work with Microsoft and Intel to update their drivers and firmware.

      By all indications, Microsoft is not expressly trying to forbid these processors from being upgraded. The issue is different from the Intel processors which cannot have Windows 7 installed on them, but can have Windows 10 installed.

      I expect that if the manufacturers want to continue to support these devices, they will be able to do so. And if this is true, a fix will arrive within the next few months.

      Didn’t Woody say that the Creators Update is still not ready for Prime Time on production machines? So what’s the rush?

      -- rc primak

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #125235 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        I expect that if the manufacturers want to continue to support these devices, they will be able to do so. And if this is true, a fix will arrive within the next few months.

        What motivation will manufacturers have for supporting these recently-out-of-warranty computers?

        • #125590 Reply

          rc primak
          AskWoody Lounger

          They are not yet out of support warranty. Read Woody’s post and the linked article.

          -- rc primak

    • #125232 Reply

      anonymous

      All of the Atom processors are listed as ‘End of Interactive Support’, it seems Microsoft is a being an … by strictly following Intel’s product support life cycle.

      HP provides software support for their computers for one decade (not sure about replacements parts), let that sink in your head for a bit…

      If a Microsoft Contingent Staff person can forcibly load the video driver (it would have been nice if the person was specific) for the tablet and it works … (sigh) what else can we type about?

    • #125239 Reply

      anonymous

      For the corporations who buy Win 10 Ent Volume Licenses, M$ have purposely implemented twice-yearly upgrades and 18-months cycles of EOL to prevent them from using Win 10 Ent for 10 years like they used to when they had previously bought Win 7/8.1 Ent VL, ie until EOL in 2020/2023.
      … Only those who lease or subscribe to Win 10 Ent VL or buy the super-expensive Win 10 Ent E5 LTSB are not prevented, eg like for Office 365 which has perpetual support as long as your subscriptions are paid.

      It is quite possible that M$ will use similar processor-blocking of upgrades to prevent consumers who buy Win 10 Home & Pro licenses from using Win 10 for 10 years, ie only allow the consumers to use Win 10 for 3 to 4 years or to be able to receive only 2 Version upgrades.

      P S – A workaround for the above issue is to use Clonezilla to clone Win 10 CU/1703 from a similar spec unaffected computer to the affected Intel Atom Clover Trail computer, as per …
      https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update/windows-10-creators-update-1703-fails-sp/a8765e64-26e1-4160-8854-4f2ae4c40a99
      . . . This likely means processor-blocking by M$. Is M$ testing the waters by first trying to make 3 to 4 years old low-end computers obsolete?

    • #125250 Reply

      anonymous

      Anyone can recommend a version of Linux that:

      (1) is free;

      (2) has zero-learning curve;

      (3) compatible to all software, regardless of year, versions, O/S, etc.;

      (4) runs on all types and combinations of hardware and drivers;

      (5) requires no patch;

      (6) will not be hacked;

      (7) light weight and fast;

      (8) will never crash.

      As a consumer, is that too much to ask? I am talking to you, MSFT.

       

      • #125372 Reply

        MrJimPhelps
        AskWoody MVP

        I use Xubuntu Linux, for the following reasons:
        1. It’s free.
        2. The interface is a lot like Windows — but not exactly; there is a small learning curve.
        3. Nothing is compatible to all software, regardless of year, versions, O/S, etc. However, you can install virtual machine software (e.g. Oracle Virtual Box), and then put each O/S of choice in its own virtual machine, allowing you to have compatibility with all software, regardless of year, versions, O/S, etc.
        4. Xubuntu runs on many types and combinations of hardware. You’ll need drivers specific to Xubuntu, but most of that is included with your Xubuntu install.
        5. Everything requires patches sometimes.
        6. Anything can be hacked, as long as it is connected.
        7. Xubuntu is lightweight and fast, although not the most lightweight and fast.
        8. Everything will crash, if the right conditions are present.

        I failed to mention that Xubuntu is a stripped down version of Ubuntu, which is a very well-supported version of Linux. Therefore, Xubuntu is well supported, with lots of good, free software available.

        As a consumer, or as anyone else, yes, that is too much to ask.

        You addressed your last statement to MSFT. In my opinion, it is a miracle that modern software and hardware works together as well as it does, with hardly a crash. Microsoft should get the lion’s share of the credit for this, because in their effort to control everything, they ended up standardizing everything.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #125254 Reply

      NetDef
      AskWoody Lounger

      Adjusting tin foil hat . . .

      Remember how Intel didn’t/hasn’t  stepped up for the artificially blocked Windows 7 update on the newest chipsets and processors with “updated drivers?”

      This is Microsoft’s side of the deal.

      Future WAAS editions will eliminate older hardware faster than consumers upgraded in the historical past.  This could be a cartel-like method to force users to stop using their 10 year old machines.  Rolling forward the goal will be to bring consumers into a three to five year replacement pattern.  Or less.  They’ve learned from the smartphone market . . .

      Okay, tin foil off now.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #125292 Reply

        Jan K.
        AskWoody Lounger

        They are partners…

        EU is working on a set of regulatives to prevent artificial aging of products… we will not accept this mindset, as the piles of discarded electronics for sure are big enough.

    • #125258 Reply

      ViperJohn
      AskWoody Lounger

      The issue is different from the Intel processors which cannot have Windows 7 installed on them, but can have Windows 10 installed.

      There is no such animal.  If it is an x86 type processor then you can install and run Windows 7 period (you can run even XP with a bit of driver Inf editing).  This includes Kaby Lake and upcoming Coffee lake, Cannon Lake, Gemini Lake and Icelake processors (per the Inf (v10.1.1.44) Chipset Driver NDA (Non Public) Build that Asrock Oops’ed and accidently had up as an x299 MB D/L before 07/05/2017.  The one exception is you can’t install Graphics Drivers for the CPU’s on-board GPU so your stuck with basic default VGA display W/O an ATI or nVidia GPU card installed. While modded GPU drivers to run a Kaby GPU on Win7 exist they have several issues).

      Now Microsoft has attemped to block updates to “new silicon” on Win7 after installation of  the April 2017 Security Only and Rollup Windows updates.  This was literally easily gotten around within minutes.

      What you could have here is just an “Oops” by Microsoft. What is far more likely though is THE START of Satya’s new attack to force the purchase, by making existing “Free Upgrade” systems obsolete by deliberate, planned insecurity,  of a data mining OS that has hit a brick wall and can’t even give away anymore (and you can still, a year after ending the “free upgrade” promotion, get the “upgrade” for free).

      The true hidden meaning of “Windows as a Service” just surfaced. You can make book that over time users who, by choice or more likely by hook or most likely by crook got “free upgraded”, and are now stuck with W10 systems, will find their CPU (or chipset or GPU or favorite chewing gum) the target of a Satya decided “Can’t Update Notice” 12-18 month security update termination date to end their “Free Upgraded Systems” life..  They simply forgot that NOTHING IS FREE.  Its just “Payment Delayed” one way or another.

      Viper

      • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  ViperJohn.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #125257 Reply

      anonymous

      OEMs and component manufacturers may work with Microsoft on providing whatever is needed to get these particular systems compatible with Windows 10’s latest build, but it is going to cost them money they do not want to spend. They do not have much of a profit margin on $500-700 systems. And what about subsequent builds?

      As Ed Bott said in his article, other systems that were NOT built for Windows 10 may follow. If I recall the number correctly it was 400 million systems that were upgraded to W10 from 7 and 8.1.

      If it ever gets to this I can not see Microsoft’s partners throwing resources at the issue. I expect that if you get the death message, you will be out of luck. Going back to W7 or W8.1 might be a challenge though – will the license work? A new W10 PC is probably the only Windows solution.

    • #125284 Reply

      lurks about
      AskWoody Lounger

      The troubling part is the deliberate change by MS in their support policy. It used be 10 years (or more) from release for security updates. Long enough that the box might be showing some serious age and needing to be replaced for other reasons. Now, it is not clear how a long a device will be supported as it depends on the hardware vendor support.

    • #125287 Reply

      anonymous

      “The following Intel processors are not CURRENTLY supported by the Win10 Creators Update.” Drivers ARE coming. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-windows_install/intel-clover-trail-processors-are-not-supported-on/ed1823d3-c82c-4d7f-ba9d-43ecbcf526e9

      … dated April 2017.

      After more than 3 months, the drivers have not yet come.

      Does this mean that Intel or M$ provided the necessary drivers for Win 8.1, Win 10 Version 1507, 1511 and 1607 but not for Version 1703? That’s quite odd.
      … Maybe drivers are not the problem. Info coming from M$ can no longer be trusted, ie has to be verified or proven by time (“time will reveal all things”).

    • #125296 Reply

      Kirsty
      AskWoody MVP

      Windows 10 is no longer supported on this PC
      By Martin Brinkmann on July 18, 2017

       
      Microsoft needs to be very careful when it comes to breaking the supported hardware chain on Windows 10. Systems that were initially supported but are not any longer are not good advertisement for the operating system, and users who had their systems upgraded to Windows 10 more or less forcefully will probably not be too pleased when they realize that they are stuck on a Windows 10 edition that is no longer supported.

       
      Read the full article on ghacks.net

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #125347 Reply

      BrianL
      AskWoody Lounger

      MS needs to make all builds of Windows 10 Open-end licenced like Windows 7 is! MS’s problems (or 90% of them)  would be over!

      • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by  BrianL.
    • #125459 Reply

      anonymous

      Since when do we need drivers to support a CPU? isn’t it the x86 and x86_64 instruction set + extensions (which you can just not use at only a performance impact)?

      • #125591 Reply

        rc primak
        AskWoody Lounger

        The real issue isn’t the CPUs themselves. A modern CPU does not live in isolation. It has firmware and a whole platform surrounding it. The use of the processor names is only shorthand to draw interest from a wide audience who may be wondering if our PCs and devices are affected.

        My ASUS tablet runs on a Bay Trail Atom processor, so is safe for now, it appears. But only if v. 1703 does not need new drivers or SoC firmware, which ASUS might be reluctant to provide for an inexpensive tablet which is over three years old.

        No big loss if this is not happening for me — I didn’t spend $800.00 on an Atom based device. Only chumps did that.

        Like my Android phone and its upgrade chances to Android O, we shall see…

        -- rc primak

    • #125594 Reply

      anonymous

      Any Win 10 computer that cannot be upgraded to Creators Update/Version 1703 = EOL in early 2018.
      … In comparison, Win 7/8.1 = EOL in 2020/2023 and Win 10 = EOL in 2025.

      So, those who upgraded their Win 7/8.1 to Win 10 or bought Win 10 new will always carry the risk of their EOL being shortened because of Win 10 Version upgrade failure.

    Please follow the -Lounge Rules- no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.

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