• Win10 machines with 1607 upgrade hidden are getting upgraded

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    #11301

    I’ve seen several reports now. Will keep you posted. Microsoft officially released the v 1607 “CBB” bits yesterday. According to @teroalhonnen, the bu
    [See the full post at: Win10 machines with 1607 upgrade hidden are getting upgraded]

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    • #11302

      Sorry, Woody… I can’t resist any longer.

      http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-03-24

      An uncanny prediction about Windows 10 from nearly 2 years ago? πŸ™‚

    • #11303

      HA!

    • #11304

      So maybe the only thing that will save you is the “don’t download over metered connections” trick. give you time to wushowhide again (or do they keep unhiding it?).

    • #11305

      @woody:
      “Right, but I didn’t know that wushowhide would get overriden with this new update.

      β€œDefer upgrade” in 1511 and β€œDefer feature updates” in 1607 are for four months, as best I can tell. Aug. 2 + 4 months = Dec. 2. And I realize that releasing the 1607 β€œCBB” bits yesterday makes a difference. But I had no idea that it would override the wushowhide setting.”

      It’s a new version of same update, so it’s handled separately
      similar to KB2952664 versions

      the β€œDefer” setting is not tied to 4 months precisely, it’s Microsoft decision when to release upgrade for deferred systems
      they uses the word “roughly” with the 4 months period πŸ™‚
      ver 1511 took more than 5 1/2 months to be released for CBB

    • #11306

      The 80% figure seems low. πŸ™‚

    • #11307

      Yep, that seems to be the solution.

    • #11308

      Well as we kept learning its really not your device amymore from Windows 10 forward. Nothing worse than things getting installed without concent. But then I keep seeing apps and games get reinstalled even after I uninstall them. I shouldnt get them in the first place if I dont want them. Well no reason to hide updates if their just going to get installed anyway.

    • #11309

      Also mentioned in that same post for releasing updated v1607 install media is that MS will no longer “service” or update Win10 RTM v1507 after 3/26/2017.

    • #11310

      Yup. use the metered connection tip for both WiFi and non-WLAN (ethernet) connections.

    • #11311

      I recall a story from my childhood about a Dutch boy trying to save a dam by sticking his finger in the leaking hole. The water is not going to give up and is relentless. Microsoft is even more relentless and is not going to ease up, EVER. They will just keep up the pressure until they get their way. A leak springs up here and here and here and here…the picture has been clear for all to see. It’s either roll over or abandon Windows altogether. We DO have a choice,albeit not an easy one.

    • #11312

      HA πŸ™‚ Nice Carl D

      ‘Windows as a service’ was the clue to where this is going,,and it’s NOT going to get better anytime soon, if ever.

    • #11313

      Right. It’s a dead duck.

    • #11314

      Enterprise LTSB 2015 will still get updates, but who wants it with LTSB 2016 existence πŸ™‚

    • #11315

      Happened to my personal ThinkPad T430 at home last night, and to my boss this morning on his work system. Mine is Windows 10 Pro x64. His is likely Enterprise x64, as we have that license here.

      I’m pretty sure I had “Defer Upgrades” enabled on my laptop at home, so it came as kind of a surprise. 1607 is finally stable enough for me to use, but I actually liked the dialogue boxes better in 1511, as well as some of the settings that they’ve since changed to make it harder to disable them I had planned to wait until the Creators’ Update.

    • #11316

      P.S. As I hold my own Windows 8.1 Enterprise license, add Classic Shell and it just keeps looking better all the time.

    • #11317

      It was already in Preview at that time.
      Dogbert must have had insider knowledge… πŸ™‚

    • #11318

      Those few who are licensed for LTSB 1507 but not 1607, due to expiring SA and not renewing as example.

    • #11319

      Windows as an OS is going away.
      Windows as Service is replacing it.
      Accept it or get out is the message we are getting.

      I am feeling so sorry for the average Joe User out there.
      I worked with one today. v1607, Home Edition, of course. I stepped him through the Settings app – it was an OMG experience for him. Then installed Classic Shell so he could find everything/anything. He has no use for the Tile/Metro apps.
      Then I started looking around.
      He used a “transfer program” to move everything from an old Dell (originally Vista upgraded to Win7 32-bit system) to a new Win10 desktop. He transferred EVERYTHING – all the 32-bit Control Panel (Power Settings, Sound, etc), all the apps (Notepad, Paint, etc), all the programs that don’t work on 64-bit. Messed up his Office 2010 b/c Office 365 was already installed. Even transferred GWX Control Panel still on the old machine. Heaven only knows what it did to the Win10 system. He probably needs to start over with a Factory Restore.
      That was an OMG moment for me. HE DIDN’T KNOW BETTER!!! HE DIDN’T KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING!!! And that’s the average Joe User out in the public. That is the Joe User MS is taking advantage of, and using for their Beta tester. And in three months he is going to get another disruption with Creators Edition dropped on him out of the blue through forced updates – clueless.
      I left, hoping I never have to support that machine in the future. It’s criminal what MS is doing.

    • #11320

      Just because it is about Windows 10 and Windows Update, something that was never too clear, but it appears to have been updated on the Technet site. Useful mostly for those on Pro, Enterprise, Education, LTSB all on 1607. It may work on Home with registry editing. Not applying to Server 2016.

      https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/manage/waas-delivery-optimization

      For those who intend to completely disable Delivery Optimization (known also as DO or WUDO), you should use only Bypass (100 decimal value in the registry) mode. This can be configured with a Group Policy. Bypass mode is the BITS mode, known from the previous versions.

      Modes 0 (HTTP) and 99 (Simple) which are confusing, still use Delivery Optimization which to me appears not to be reliable yet. Those settings may have a greater role in the future with the new updating mechanism which is supposed to be implemented in the future upgrade of Windows 10, the Creator Edition.

      For those still on 1507 or 1511, the only closer option is Mode 0 or HTTP, the only one available in the GUI as OFF, but it is not truly OFF, it only disables the peer-to-peer downloading, while still reporting back to the Cloud service and using DO as downloading mechanism which is different than the legacy BITS, more reliable at the moment.

    • #11321

      HA!

    • #11322

      Yep, Defer Upgrades has past its expiration.

      But I was wondering about wushowhide. Still think it’s odd.

    • #11323

      The “Feature update to Windows 10, version 1607” appeared on my update list yesterday. I run Windows 10 Pro and have updates set to not download automatically (via the Configure Automatic Updates group policy setting) so I just had to use wushowhide to hide the update again. Annoying… but proving once again why paying a little extra for Pro was a good investment.

    • #11324

      Good point.

    • #11325

      It is as @abbodi86 explained, it may look like a mystery, but it is not and to a certain degree expected, at least in the Windows 10 sense.

    • #11326

      … and now those using wushowhide beyond its due date, end up with an orphaned record in the DataStore.edb which may or may not cause updating problems in the future. This can be resolved by resetting the SoftwareDistribution folder and start clean with 1607.

    • #11327

      “all the 32-bit Control Panel (Power Settings, Sound, etc), all the apps (Notepad, Paint, etc), all the programs that don’t work on 64-bit.”

      Are you aware of mainstream software compiled for 32-bit which does not work on 64-bit OS?
      If yes, please let us know.
      Or is it rather written for 32-bit and still working as 32-bit in which case it is OK or even better for compatibility purpose?

    • #11328

      @Brent
      “paying a little extra for Pro was a good investment.”

      Absolutely. But this was always true for Windows 7 as well.
      At the same time, most regular users would not know how to take advantage of the extra functionality in Pro without specialised support, so… I don’t know what to say.

    • #11329

      @PKCano

      I had hoped to be able to do something a bit grander, including more principles of law, but this seems to be the time to start, even though, in one sense, I am beginning by projecting to what I consider a likely future, IF MS has its way. Here’s what I wrote Woody last night in an e-mail.

      My current thought consistent, in a sense, with what Ch 100 said last week that MS views Windows as a service, is that if MS had its way, nearly everything would be in the cloud (their cloud of course) and what we had on our desks, or laps, or hands, would be not too much more than an IBM AS 400 dummy terminal, which we used to have at the Cook County Public Defenders Office, where I worked before retiring, early, in 2003. MS would then make its money off of the licensing agreements to use the various services and the Windows OS, in a sense, would cease to exist because the OS would be on a MS server in the cloud. In a way, MS is using Win 10 as a loss leader and with a bait and switch to come later once it has the users hooked.

      (End Of E-Mail To Woody)

      But, for now, as long as things are mostly still on our PCs, Windows will be an OS with all this stuff on top of it and bundled and baked into it per the Window OS licensing agreement. This has been Microsoft’s consistent strategy since it unsuccessfully tried to force IE on everybody.

      In the law, we call this, the Windows licensing agreement, a “contract of adhesion”. When you purchased, leased, etc. your car, that was an adhesion contract (AC). You possessed little to no bargaining/barter power over the terms of the contract. Same with your apartment rental. This is the essence of an AC.

      The terms of an AC are usually enforced by courts or regulatory agencies, when challenged and, thus, are hard to successfully challenge. But it can be, and has been, done. When MS was forced to take IE off the desktop and forced to stop it from being the default browser out of the box, what was really happening was the court was putting back an element of bargaining/barter/choice into the AC (here the Windows licensing agreement). Same sort of thing, within the past two weeks, when the Swiss agency forced MS to change/add options to Win10. The French still have something going.

      The point of all of this is MS has to be challenged, in court, and through agencies, on all of this and vigorously. Litigation is not only costly, but also time consuming because of the process of appeals, and it is more the time element that favors MS here than anything else.

      If I am right about MS wanting bootstrap Win10 into much more of cloud based “service” then if I was the president of a PC computer manufacturing company, I think I’d be concerned. I think I’d be calling my lawyer.

      If you break Microsoft’s bundling of all this stuff over the core OS, by forcibly adding choices for the end-user not only would MS be stopped we’d still have a PC-based OS and PCs. Don’t break it and MS will prevail with what I consider to be its Grand Plan.

      In a better world, we’d have a Ralph Nader type leading this charge. Perhaps, one will appear.

    • #11330

      +1

    • #11331

      It’s a little aside from this thread, but as I watched the mist rise this morning above the dreamy spires, I had a rare moment to ponder. Usual stuff, life, the universe, oh and Windows 10.

      So, I get the idea that logging in with a m$ account enables rich pickings for m$ and not using a m$ account provides some degree of anonymity. But where does this digital licence thing fit in? A reinstall is automatically activated on the same computer as part of the installation, so there must be some exchange of information. Is that all it is though?

      A digital licence may not be able to identify an individual, but it must certainly identify a ‘device’.

      Is this why, under the ‘Privacy Settings’, ‘Feedback & Diagnostics’ the terminology used is ‘device’ orientated and the minimum setting is basic?

    • #11332

      I have been predicting that MS was headed for User dumb terminals connected to a Windows (or some other name) VM on their servers now for a couple of years on this site. Rent the VM and whatever Apps you want on it by the month/year. Woody put the name “Thin Client” on my comments the last time I made them.

    • #11333

      What the User ended up with was (for example) duplicate icons in the control panel. For example, one the normal Power Settings, one with Power Settings – 32-bit – this for a bunch of the functions. Never seen anything like that before.

      Other things, like Notepad, were screwed up with strange entries in the menu that looked like command lines (I did not pursue these).

      I should have suggested a Factory Restore and start over, but I just walked away. It was an “OMG what did he do” moment. Usually I’m not so bummed out by User complete lack of understanding/awareness/knowledge (cluelessness).

    • #11334

      This wasn’t about installing 32-bit Office on a 64-bit machine. It wasn’t about whether 32-bit programs can run on 64-bit machines. Do you really think I’m that dumb?

      This was about transferring older programs that are not compatible with Win10 (in case you didn’t know that was possible).
      But mostly it was about what a mess the User made of his new PC!!

    • #11335

      @JNP
      My prediction is very much consistent with the one you expressed in your letter sent to Woody.
      I cannot comment about the legality of Microsoft’s approach because I am not competent in the law area, but it seems to happen everywhere, only if you look at Google, Apple, Adobe, Mozilla, Citrix and almost everyone else I believe.

    • #11336

      @JNP
      From a practical perspective, I think Microsoft makes the ongoing management of Windows 10 more and more complicated for the end-users, but also for most systems administrators maybe hoping that somehow the very same users/admins will resign to the idea that only Microsoft specialised personnel can manage the OS in a timely manner, with all the patches, changes and so on. And where can the OS be managed better than in a central location which is currently known as “The Cloud”.
      This raises network performance and reliability issues which I don’t know if they can be solved in an acceptable manner for all customers with the current and near future technologies.
      The Courts can only delay this evolution which can be stopped only due to commercial considerations and not due to regulation.

    • #11337

      Just ran wushowhide. Lots of stuff there, including 1607 and many hardware updates for Intel and Lenovo (my brand of computer). I checked everything and hid it all. I don’t want updates regardless of whether or not I need them. Feel betrayed/deceived by MS. Don’t trust them. Still use their software as a program launcher and file system manager. I retain the right to my own manner of working. I retain the right to choose what features I add to my computer. I demand that MS provide a global ‘off’ switch for all telemetry. I demand that the Gov’t assure that the switch works. If these demands are not meant I will have to eventually switch to another platform.

    • #11338

      What makes you think that I consider anyone here dumb? It is a legitimate question as there are known issues with older applications which may not run on certain platforms and even more so if for example they do not place the files in the right location due to faulty design, e.g. Program Files hard-coded instead of using environment variables to place them under the correct location Program Files (x86). I would like to know about that sort of applications. One such example is an older version of TRIM, first one after the product was purchased by HP and released under their brand.

    • #11339

      I’m hanging on to Win 7 Pro on three moderately old daily drivers in our family. (I keep computers until they die or no longer run the programs I rely on.) I did pick up an inexpensive tablet with Win 10 Home edition – just as a way to become familiarized and to follow along with Win 10 to an extent. It came with 1511, is certified for that edition and the warranty only applies if the tablet is running that version.

      I’ve been steadfastly using the metered connection setting along with winshowhide and it’s been working just fine. The 1607 update showed up again and I simply re-hid it. No problem so far.

      I’m concerned this approach will soon fail. Will MS kill off the winshowhide function, forcing 1607 and/or Creator edition onto the tablet, voiding my warranty and maybe bricking my machine? MS says Win 10 is licensed “for the life of the device”. If they can unilaterally define “the life of the device” as being whenever their constantly changing OS no longer runs on my device, they would essentially be forcing me to abandon a perfectly good piece of hardware that otherwise would last much longer.

      If this turns out to be the case, hardware manufacturers will be a happy lot, “users” will be renamed “losers” and the e-waste problem will accelerate.

      The marketers make it sound like Win 10 will have a long lifetime on our machines, while the small print seems to indicate the support period for each version of Win 10 will actually be vastly shorter than previous versions of Windows like 98, XP, 7 and 8.

      Tell me it ain’t so…

    • #11340

      @ ch100 & Brent ……. And if u do not wanna see ads from M$ n listen to MS Cortana, u can also pay a “little” extra to subscribe to Win 10 Ent E5 LTSB at only US$14 per month per user/employee. *sarcasm*

    • #11341

      I understand that it was about you trying to stay away from that mess created by the user (or Microsoft upgrade procedure). Just because you mentioned the 32-bit stuff running on 64-bit I was trying to see if there are still applications in the wild not running in that context because of faulty design and not following the OS requirements.

    • #11342

      @PKCano

      Well, I’m kind of new to trying to figure out what MS’s long game plan is all about, remember, I am just a former lawyer.

      The one thing I felt I left out, and it is not something new to you, or Woody, or Ch100 and all the pros on this site, but IF this happens were basically back at a Mainframe system, like the AS400 I was asked to use, which prompted me to go out and buy a Radio Shack laptop with Deskmate on it (as Woody knows, I still need to use Deskmate for a database). This way, I could always do my legal work, regardless of whether the system was down. Also, I retained my files locally, I guaranteed my backups, I decided when to install new programs, or patches. Sure, I messed up sometimes, but I learned.

      And, so, like you, and Woody and all the Pros on this site (myself definitely not included in the Pro category), I know what’s in store for the average Joe User you mentioned earlier in the day. This is why a dummy terminal, or thin client, MS world cannot be allowed to happen it will actually make computers less accessible and reliable to the average user, let alone those in the corporate world.

    • #11343

      @ JNP ……. Another term for M$-Win 10’s abusive business practices is bait-n-switch.
      ……. IOW, the Win XP n Win 7 that we bought from M$ r very different from the Win 10 that we bought from M$, in terms of a plain vanilla cptr OPERATING SYSTEM = M$ baited us with good old Win XP/7 n then switched us to bad/evil new Win 10.

      With the bait of Win XP/7, we bought a plain vanilla OS, chose which programs to install n no ads. With the switch to Win 10, we bought a multi-flavor OS which has many M$’s programs pre-installed/bundled, eg Windows Defender, Cortana, Bing, Edge/IE, OneNote, Windows Store/Apps, Telemetry & Data Collection, etc n ads.
      .
      Thin clients/Dumb terminals.? = M$ will lose money for their Surface line of cptrs n PC-manufacturers will cry foul. So, I doubt Win 10 will be moving towards that, but instead will likely be moving towards subscriptions, first targetting the businesses, n then the consumers. That is why Win 10 has the build-in UpgradeSubscription.exe Tool.

    • #11344

      Received the update today. Do not use the automatic setting. It appeared on my PC’s notification popup and was listed on the Windows update and security page for a restart. As before, I immediately engaged the Windows update troubleshooting tool to hide it again.

    • #11345

      Actually it would not be dead if they let me run it. It does what I need and I don’t need more. Without all the bloat I took off its just Te right thing.

    • #11346

      Well w all due respect if its happening and cant be stopped then let it produce mass disasters and maybe there’s a chance for some revolt. But I wont hold my breath. You don’t fight u lose ur rights.

    • #11347

      Not for LTSB 2015. It will get updates until 2025.

      With LTSB 2015 I can set Windows Update to “Never Check for Updates” by changing the relevant Group Policy setting. That will allow me to maintain full control over when to install updates, not on Microsoft’s timetable.

      It is the version I will use if I need to use Windows 10 in the future (hopefully not for several years).

    • #11348

      That seems to be the best approach.

    • #11349

      It’s largely a matter of terminology. Teh various versions of Win10 are, more or less, like Service Packs – although the latest one, 1607, is a bit more like a new version.

    • #11350

      You might as well go ahead and start making plans for the switch. MS is not stoppable.

    • #11351

      @ Steve S ……. Every new Version of Win 10 is only supported by M$ for about 18 months, except for the much more expensive purchased Win 10 Ent E5 LTSB whose EOL is in 2025 n the subscribed Win 10 Ent E3 n E5 which hv perpetual EOL.
      ……. To stay supported, users must upgrade to the newest Version or the Version b4 that bc the Win 10 Version upgrade cycle is about 6 to 9 months, ie Version 1507/RTM(29 July 2015), Version 1511(Nov 2015), Version 1607(02 Aug 2016) n the coming Version 1704(April 2017). The EOL for Version 1507/RTM is 26 March 2017 n for Version 1511 is around July 2017.

      Fyi, those companies who had bought Win 10 Ent E3 Version 1507 or Version 1511 during 2015 or early 2016 will be forced to buy the 3-year Software Assurance/Insurance if they wanna remain supported by M$ or subscribe to the EOL-less Win 10 Ent E5 which costs US$14 per month per user/employee.
      ……. All subscription services do not hv EOL, as long as the subscriptions hv been paid, eg Office 365 subscriptions.
      ……. The 3-yr SA costs 29% of the full Win 10 Ent E3 license fee per year per user/employee(= 87%) n entitles “free” OS upgrades within 3 years. Companies who pay less upfront money to rent/lease Win 10 Ent Volume Licenses from M$ r required to purchase the 3-yr SA during the rental period = called Enterprise Agreements.
      .
      Cheap/budget Win 10 Home tablets that came with 32GB of EMMC storage that were on sale during 2015 or 2016 will most likely not be able to receive feature updates/upgrades bc of insufficient free disk space, eg the coming Creators Update/Version 1704.
      ……. That is why the latest cheap/budget Win 10 Home tablets that r on sale in 2017 come with minimum 64GB or 128GB of EMMC storage = able to be upgraded to a new Version of Win 10.
      .
      .
      What will happen in 2025(= EOL) to the Win 10 digital licences of those Win 10 users who hv faithfully upgraded their cptrs to newer Versions of Win 10 since 29 July 2015 or after.?

    • #11352

      The average user knows how to use a computer but does not understand how they really work. They need stable editions that do not change for many years not a new release every 6 to 12 months.

    • #11353

      Some form of subscription services for all their products. With OEM sales dropping and people not upgrading to the last version of an application like they used to in the past software sales and profits will decline. Now a subscription service more or less guarantees a monthly nick from the users for each product. Also, these monthly nicks are likely to have higher margins.

      The fallacy of this model is the monthly nicks reduce a person’s ability to manage their money as more is committed to something everymonth. I doubt most can afford an extra $50 to $100 per month in subscription fees.

    • #11354

      Woody, I recall MS said they were going to use a rolling release type model for W10. It appears they do not understand what a rolling release is nor how difficult it is execute without problems regularly occurring. Problems well beyond the skills of most users to fix.

      My experience with Arch Linux, a true rolling release, is that most of the time updates work fine with no issues. But about every 6 to 9 months there is an update that requires some TLC to fix a problem such as updating a config file. All Arch users experience this and do not recommend Arch or its derivatives to anyone who does not have the skills to occasionally give it some TLC.

      It seems that MS is foisting something like Arch Linux on users who do not have the skills to fix the inevitable problems. This seems to be recipe for a long term disaster.

    • #11355

      It’s being downloaded as I saw this post! Was prepping for the conversion anyway but have not completed disk images, etc yet. Sure hope it goes without a hitch! I’m so frustrated by all of this MS BS! If the Linux folks could get there heads together and come up with one dominant distro, they would likely wipe MS out of the OS world in short order. I can dream.

    • #11356

      @ch100,

      Yes, you are largely correct about this. But each of these companies started at different points, and business models, this makes “the factual basis” for any challenge different, and possibly very important. As just one instance, Apple has been able to do more of this, what MS tries to do when it bundles, because Apple started as a very closed system. So, for instance (sorry to repeat for instance), there can not really be a successful challenge to Apple bundling Safari as their browser like there was for Windows and IE. So, not only are principles of law important, the specific facts of the case, here the starting point for the companies product, are also very important and probably the most important parts because the law is more static than the facts of any given case.

      That said, as each of these companies progress, they may be subject to more challenges, as they move farther away from their initial core, thereby changing the facts and, hence, the application of the law to the facts.

      Now, everybody go watch some football tomorrow, OK!

    • #11357

      Oh. You mean American Football? You’re talking to an international audience here. πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚

    • #11358

      For all interested in keeping 1511 (Group W):

      I have configured my Pro version to prevent updates in accordance to all the suggestions offered here over time, including metered connection and, on top, disabled WU service and all possible telemetry via ShutUp. I have cleaned it of Cortana, Edge and all other useless apps bloat and using the Classic Shell I can now hardly distinguish it from Win7. I don’t give a ff about all the crap that MS is now piling on it that one would have to spend loads of time trying to figure out without anything to show for it.

      I just checked and there has been no upgrade (yet). ShutUp shows that all the buttons are in the disabled position I left them. For how long I don’t know. But the minute the upgrade occurs I will reinstall Win7 from scratch.

      As to MS “not servicing 1511”, they can kiss my derriere. Their current so-called service is the most dangerous to my computing health. The importance of control of my software well overrides the risk of loss of MS support.

      If a mass of knowledgeable users would do this, there would have been a chance to stop MS. Unfortunately, the usual response is to complain and let MS upgrade. Good luck with that.

    • #11359

      @Woody,

      Just like MS, the NFL wants to take over the world too ? ? ?. If the NFL is wise, they will not send the Chicago Bears overseas as a selling point.

    • #11360

      There seems to be a lot of interest in the corporate world about moving at least parts of their systems in the Cloud. I don’t know if it is a legitimate move or just sheep mentality, but if this is going to happen, the Cloud will have to deliver or else it will fail and then we will all have to move back to our server-client internally hosted environment or stand-alone desktops, networked internally and with Internet access as it is still the case today.
      What seems unnatural to me and this maybe the determining factor for the future success of the Cloud is that every user today has to be in fact a system administrator of their own machine, in addition to their own regular occupation. Compare computers with TV sets, fridges or the old traditional phones.
      All the other appliances tend to become more and more integrated in the computer networks, although once configured, the overhead in using them tends not to be so big. This may explain the success of the iOS.

    • #11361

      I think it is a lot less estimated to cost than the figures which you presented in today’s money. If you add internet costs it may get there, but this is something that is paid today and with progressing technologies the costs for the end-user are not increasing significantly, while the performance does.

    • #11362

      It’s OK, we have our share of fun with the Australian Open http://www.ausopen.com/ πŸ™‚

    • #11363

      I was reading Ars Technica a couple of days ago and someone posted a comment that you could indeed keep Win10 from updating, regardless of version. They wrote that you go into Services and then find Windows Update Service. Left click properties and disable the service, and then Windows will never update. I have Win10 on a refurb laptop, but haven’t booted it in a month, so I don’t know how accurate this is. Also, I’m a long ways from being an expert. Any thoughts on this?

    • #11364

      You shouldn’t lose your warranty for upgrading, while keeping the base version the same, Win 10 Home edition in your case. I would say it works quite the other way around.
      You should technically lose your warranty if you are NOT fully updated, but the manufacturers can make it hard, especially being an inexpensive tablet in your words.

    • #11365

      There is no EOL in 2025, except for Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB 2015, which everyone including those who have the license as part of SA have been continuously advised not to use, except for specific purpose, i.e. ATM, factory floor computers.

    • #11366

      @ch100

      Agree, nearly completely. Certainly what you write in paragraph 1, and sentence 1 of paragraph 2, as it is a great business model for MS and, as it is a corporation needing to maximize profits, this makes perfect economic sense. It also makes perfect legal sense because it “resets the clock” for MS as a business because Windows, as an OS, would cease to exist and any restrictions, or possible restrictions, placed on MS in the past, or near future, for crossing the line on what it can do with this OS would also cease to have any practical effect on MS.

      Your second sentence is slightly off because courts do take into consideration commercial considerations in rulings. After all, the Court rulings, or consent decrees, in the Netscape/IE dispute, at least in the US if I recall correctly, was based on anti-competition, which is a commercial consideration.

      My point with all of this, these past two days, has been to try to present to Woody’s readers just a little bit of an introduction to the legal aspects of MS’s behavior, which is very consistent with what we are seeing across the world with large corporations. As such, it won’t be just MS, and isn’t just MS, that will be subject to heighten scrutiny pertaining to their business practices and legality of same.

    • #11367

      You shouldn’t block updates forever. You need the security patches.

      That said, to block updates until you’re ready to install them, see
      http://www.infoworld.com/article/3138088/microsoft-windows/woodys-win10tip-block-forced-win10-updates.html

    • #11368

      HARRRRRRR!

    • #11369

      Oh just watch me blocking updates forever in win10. And ill be safer and waste much less time on unproductive messabouts.

    • #11370

      Until malware or ransomware bricks your system because a hacker exploited a patch you didn’t install.

    • #11371

      I don’t have any ads and Cortana was turned off long ago and I pay nothing. I simply put in the time before I got my new computer to do my research online and find all the settings to disable all the spying (that one can without Ent at least), Cortana, “Get to Know Me”, etc. So my Windows 10 machine functions basically just like Windows 7 with a facelift.

    • #11372

      Hi there!

      I’m a bit lost, and need help! My daughter is having a gamer pc, on w10 pro.. 2 hdd, and and earlier today, version 1607 tried to install. It failed, so windows came back to 1511 version, but when I restarted the pc, 1607 is downloading again, so it will try to install again probably.

      Please, can you explain to me, exactly, what to do to stop this insanity! 1511 version was very stable, gaming was perfect. No use for cortana or other 1607 versions.
      1607 download is complete, waiting to be installed. Is there a way to differ the update?

      Thanks for your help!!! My daughter is about to begin a 3d modeling certification, she has many heavy softwares to run on this PC. many programs on C and D hdd. Everything is running fine with 1511. ‘m pretty sure she had not any backup, only the restauration cd made by the shop who builded the pc.

      I’m curious when it comes to computer, but you guys on Woodyask are SO smart!

      SOS!!!!!!!

    • #11373

      In my case, not so smart, but I’ve got a lot of scars.

      Best thing to do, in order to stop the madness, is to follow this guide:

      http://www.infoworld.com/article/3105827/microsoft-windows/how-to-temporarily-block-the-upgrade-win10-anniversary-update-version-1607.html

      Then if your machine insists on installing 1607, go ahead and let it. If you can’t tolerate 1607, you can roll it back – Start > Settings > Update & security. On the left, choose Recovery. On the right, click Go back to an earlier build.

    • #11374

      Thanks woody, I will check it out. The issue is it failed many times to install. So it’s a pain. 1511 version isn’t having any more updates? this is why MS want to force us to have 1607???

    • #11375

      OK, last question for now, as I have w10 pro, I can differ. If the download is complete, will it be differed for a certain time? I want the patches for 1511, but not 1607 version!

    • #11376

      Not sure what you mean by “differ”

      If you block 1607 using wushowhide (and roll it back if it gets installed but you don’t want it), you will continue to get updates for 1511 for several more months.

    • #11377

      1511 is getting updates for many months.

      If you can’t get 1607 to install, go to the Reddit forum

      https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/5dfqv3/windows_10_update_1511_to_1607/

      follow the suggestions given, and if that doesn’t work, post a question referencing /u/johnwinkmsft

      John should be able to help you.

    • #11378

      @ Brent ……. In that case, u should also hv done the same with Win 10 Home Version 1511, eg disable Windows Update via Registry settings, n save on β€œpaying a little extra for Pro was a good investment.” *sarcasm*
      .
      The EOL for Win 10 Version 1511 is at around July 2017 n M$ will very likely reset all yr “illegal” tweaks when u will be forced to abandon Version 1511 n upgrade to Version 1607 or the coming Version 1704, in order to stay supported by M$. *fyi*

    • #11379

      Sorry for my bad english. I mean DEFER upgrade. As I have w10 pro. So I checked the box DEFER upgrades in WU parameters. But the 1607 version is already downloaded and ready to install, so I don’t know if it’s too late.

      I will see after another restart.

      Don’t have the energy to start again from 0, as there are many softwares and programs installed πŸ™ Thanks for the link Woody.

    • #11380

      @ ch100 ……. Are u speaking on behalf of M$ that there will be no 2025 EOL for all Win 10 cptrs except for those on LTSB 2015.? What about those on LTSB 2016 n the coming LTSB 2017.?
      .
      M$ hv stated that the EOL for Win 10 that was released in July 2015 has an EOL of 14 Oct 2025 with the extra condition of …
      ** Updates are cumulative, with each update built upon all of the updates that preceded it. A device needs to install the latest update to remain supported. Updates may include new features, fixes (security and/or non-security), or a combination of both.
      https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
      https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/30881/modern-lifecycle-policy
      .
      In comparison, a non-up-to-date Win 7/8.1 cptr will still be supported by M$ until its EOL in 2020/2023.
      ……. But a non-up-to-date Win 10 cptr will not be supported by M$ till its EOL in 2025, eg Win 10 Version 1507/RTM will not be supported by M$ after 26 March 2017 n Win 10 Version 1511 will not be supported after around July 2017.
      .
      So, even an up-to-date Win 10 cptr, eg running Version 2507(= July 2025), will likely not be supported by M$ after 14 Oct 2025 = the user will hv to buy a new Win 10 license, … if he/she is not already subscribed to Win 10.
      .
      It is not business-wise for M$ to support a Win 10 cptr for more than 10 years.
      ……. Bear in mind that M$ know when a Win 10 cptr was first activated or licensed. All pre-14 Oct 2025 activated Win 10 cptrs will likely not be supported by M$ after that date. So, it would be foolish to buy a new or used OEM Win 10 cptr on 01 Oct 2025 n similarly to buy a new(with downgrade rights) or used OEM Win 7 cptr on 01 Jan 2020.

    • #11381

      @ Therese & woody ……. Win 10 Version 1511 will not be supported by M$ after around July 2017, which is only about 6 months away.

      .
      It is always better to do a clean install of Win 10 Version 1607, rather than a gigantic in-place OS upgrade. Remember to back-up data b4 the install n record down the Product Key for purchased software/programs.

    • #11382

      Aha! Yes, defer is the term you want. Keep us posted.

    • #11383

      Version 1511 support will not end before October 2017 at least

    • #11384

      LTSB 2016 added one year, so it ends 2026
      next version will be in 2019, no LTSB 2017 or LTSB 2018

    • #11385

      1607 is the worse malware i have seen in my life & MS teams is worse than hackers in crashing pc’s since aug 2016

    • #11386

      @ abbodi86 & etc ……. My apologies. Thank u for the correction.
      ……. I just took the 4 months’ difference between Version 1507 n 1511 as my yardstick, ie EOL March 2017 n July 2017.

    • #11387

      Hi Woody. After a reboot, 1607 doesn’t want to install. For now… So in the update panel, all I have is the INSTALL NOW button. Does it mean I won’t have anymore updates for 1511 version? First time install failed, last septembember, I checked all drivers, nothing needed to be upgraded. I had not force the install, as I saw many problems for those who have 2 hdd. I tried later, same issues, but no error messages, so I have no clue what failed exactly.

      (I have to also say, this pc is connected to internet via WI-FI only Via usb wireless adapter, to use 5 ghz band. I can’t connect via ethernet unfortunately.)

      Over the months. many drivers updates were done, but yesterday, not sure what driver update was done, but apparently 1607 was downloaded during the process.

      So another question, as this pc is a gamer pc, many drivers update automatically, or not. Is a driver may require 1607 version to work? Not sure if my question makes sense!

      Finally, is there a way to know why an upgrade fails somewhere in the system, without using any external software???

      Thanks for your precious help, links, and comments guys. YOU ROCK

    • #11388

      If that remains the only trick I suspect MS will start assuming it and ignoring that too. Those with true metered connections will be forced into submission to avoid the consequences.

      People have to learn that they can no longer take their rights for granted and must fight to preserve them. If they don’t, they’ll get what they deserve. Complaining about it is useless.

    • #11389

      I asked this question several times here but got no reply: can individual users get the LTSB version and, if so, for how much?

    • #11390

      NOBODY needs a new release every 6-12 months, certainly not if they add no useful stuff.
      And if there are so many bugs to require this, then the problem is much worse than the updates–it’s being sold crap.

    • #11391

      I have reiterated over the years that the cloud is a regress to the good old mainframe days, with an added bonus for vendors: access to all our data–think of all the possible spying, the temptation to access it will be too hard to resist–and having its owners by the b****. At least the mainframe left control in the hands of the data owners, the Cloud does not.

      There is not enough knowledge and reasoning ability in the public to understand what the tech industry and authoritarian govt jointly are doing to it. When they realize it it’ll be too late. It always is.

    • #11392

      Same here. I eliminated both Cortana and Edge with Winaero scripts and as far as I can tell there no leftovers to speak of.

      The core reason for not allowing ANY updates to my 1511 pro is that they will return those 2 and there is no guarantee that the script will still work.

      99% of what MS is adding to Win10 is useless to me and probably to a vast majority of those who use Windows for business, not entertainment. It’s bloat that has no usefulness and wastes resources, allowing MS to profit from spying.

    • #11393

      I’ve used Windows since WinNT and I NEVER had such a problem. OTOH, read through the stuff here and see that MS malware screws up users left and right.

      What Win10 does is substitutes frequent MS malware for the rare benefit of protection from other malware, which I don’t even trust it’s competent. Thanks, but no thanks.

      I have image backups and restore points and if and when a rare problem occurs, I have a way to recover. Too many problems with MS updates to recover from.

    • #11394

      2 years for 1511?! Or is it about 1607?

    • #11395

      I don’t know from where is this information, but I trust you that it is correct, as it sounds about right.
      LTSB and the equivalent names LTSR, ESR and maybe others are declared generally when a mainstream release is considered reliable enough by the manufacturer to be declared “long term” for those willing to pay the extra support. In general such versions are not supported for common use without the specialised manufacturer’s support.

    • #11396

      Not for everyone πŸ™‚

    • #11397

      Short answer: No.

    • #11398

      As long as you’re on 1511, you’ll continue to get patches for it. Until 1511 support kicks out, which won’t be for many more months.

    • #11399

      It’s simply calculation, not solid info πŸ™‚
      next Windows version is 1704 + 4 months for CBB media + 2 months grace period = October 2017

    • #11400

      https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/waas-quick-start

      “Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB is a separate Long Term Servicing Branch (LTSB) version. Each release is supported for a total of 10 years (five years standard support, five years extended support). New releases are expected about every three years.”

    • #11401

      Just came back to my laptop (Win10 Pro x64) and found it in the “updating… do not turn off your computer” screen. So I promptly turned off my computer, forced it to back out the update (I’m not tolerating that behavior), and double checked my group policy settings.
      I had Defer Upgrades checked and the following group policies set (which MS has apparently now decided to ignore):
      – Configure Automatic Updates: Notify before downloading and installing any updates, Install during automatic maintenance unchecked
      – No auto-restart with logged on users for scheduled automatic updates installations
      – Always automatically restart at the scheduled time (disabled)
      The Task Scheduler tasks that trigger the restarts had also been disabled. It seems that MS has now left me no choice but to disable the Automatic Updates service completely on all my machines.

    • #11402

      I’m seeing similar reports all over the web.

      Looks like MS has released 1607 to folks who have blocked it, and possibly tromped over several settings that people thought were sacrosanct.

      I’m researching it tonight, hope to have something definitive in the morning.

    • #11403

      If you click check for updates, then it downloads and installs automatically whatever is available, regardless of the Group Policy setting. That setting is applied only when the user does not manually click on the button. This is a major change from Windows 7.
      Defer Upgrades seems to have taken effect, but now it is the due time for the expiry of the grace period. This is why that setting was ignored.
      I think No auto-restart with logged-on users… applies only to Windows 8/8.1/2012/2012R2.
      The Scheduled Tasks seem to have a self-healing mechanism, so I don’t think anyone can easily be successful with modifying the Scheduled Tasks relevant to Windows Update.

    • #11404

      so there is no real difference between 10 home or pro both can get screw’d unlike the fanatasy of geting pro to control updates claim, even with paying extra money MS will bite you

    • #11405

      Thanks πŸ™‚

    • #11406

      @ fp ……. Win 10 Ent LTSB is only available to businesses with Volume Licenses for Win 10 Ent E5.

      But any individual can download, install n run Win 10 Ent LTSB for evaluation purposes. But after 90 days, there will be a regular nagscreen asking for activation. It can be easily ignored. So, there should be not much problem for an individual to run LTSB long term unless M$ take “punitive” actions, eg by bricking the non-activated LTSB with a mandatory auto-update.
      .
      http://www.howtogeek.com/273824/windows-10-without-the-cruft-windows-10-ltsb-explained/
      http://www.techproresearch.com/article/is-the-windows-10-long-term-servicing-branch-right-for-you/
      http://www.sossuccess.com/Blog/ArticleID/8/Windows-E3-and-E5-why-and-how-are-they-licensed

    • #11407

      I’m still trying to figure out the nuances. It isn’t as simple as it appears.

    • #11408

      … and the wushowhide “hidden” status is revoked because there’s a new version of the 1607 update.

      Yep, that matches what Susan’s saying, too.

    • #11409

      @ Scott ……. I think it is futile for u to disable the Automatic Updates Service bc M$ can always reset it via the AllowExperimentation Registry value thru a mandatory auto-update. M$-Nadella know what u hv been doing with Win 10.
      ……. Only businesses(= using Win 10 Ent) who hv subscribed to M$-Intune can disable AllowExperimentation. M$-Intune costs an extra minimum of US$6 per month per user/employee.
      .
      “Resistance is futile” – it’s impossible to resist M$-Win 10 unless u r a valuable business customer n pays more money$$$$ to M$.

    • #11410

      +1

    • #11411

      – The feature update is now targeted for both branches, CB & CBB (Defered)

      – Did you ran or checked Windows Update in Settings to see if the policy is applied?

      – This policy only works with option 4 in Configure Automatic Updates
      https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/waas-restart

      – If the “No auto-restart with…” policy is enabled, then this policy has no effect either

      – The Scheduler tasks status is controlled by WU, not the other way around

      – You could set your connection as metered

    • #11412

      No way is Microsoft going to ignore Metered Connections or wushowhide. Those are used by some businesses. No way will MS risk angering people who have a history of suing for business losses when an upgrade installs automatically without warning.

    • #11413

      Killing off wushowhide is highly unlikely. Businesses use this tool, and MS would not be likely to risk being sued for business losses again. This lawsuit tactic has succeeded with forced upgrades more than once already.

    • #11414

      This comment posted in a weird place. It is a reply to Number 12 by Steve S.

    • #11415

      One dominant distro is not what Linux is about.

      What Linux does do — and most non-users don’t know this — is to maintain one common kernel which is consistent across most distros. Within one family of Linux, say Debian, the consistency across distros is even closer.

      There is no advantage in market adoption in making all Linux distros use one common interface or one common repository. In fact, this is exactly what would make Linux less attractive to the types of people who would ever consider the switch in the first place.

    • #11416

      Not knowing exactly which brand and model the PC is, I am only guessing here. But FWIW, I have a colleague who got into the same sort of issue with ver.1607 not installing on a relatively recent and up to date PC. I’d be willing to place my bets on a driver needing to be updated, or a firmware or BIOS upgrade being needed (if one is available). My colleague had built an Intel NUC (Skull Canyon) from a kit.

    • #11417

      In addition, make sure the BIOS, the EFI Firmware and all drivers are up to date before tackling a major upgrade like this. These are frequent causes of “something went wrong” errors. (Or, as I quote Moon Mullins, “Somewhere, somehow, something went HORRIBLY wrong.”)

    • #11418

      In addition to updating firmware and drivers, if at all possible, disable all internal drives except the System Drive, and disable all external hard drives, SSDs, NAS, etc. These can confuse the Windows upgrade installers. This is not the first report I’ve seen of this issue.

    • #11419

      So it is mandatory now to check with wushowhide BEFORE unmetering your connection to the Internet? I have long suspected that was the best strategy.

    • #11420

      Yep.

    • #11421

      Unfortunately, I don’t have the tools to move it. You could re-post…

    • #11422

      wushowhide is fully documented, but metering? I doubt that turning metering on is more than a hack.
      wushowhide is the old Hide this update from Windows 7 in a different implementation.

    • #11423

      +1

    • #11424

      The Intel NUC was one of the main types of machines for which the Intel Chipset drivers 10.1.1.38 recently discussed for Windows 7 were released by Intel. Maybe the version should be checked on the NUC and the drivers updated manually using the Intel download before trying again. I am only guessing here, as this should normally not be the problem.
      Is the NUC running 1511 at the moment?

      • #89240

        Update — In the NUC, there are several ways to get Windows 10 drivers. The Intel Driver Update utility does a pretty good job, but it sometimes fails to install drivers, or it tries to put in drivers not yet fully compatible with Windows 10.

        A better way is to get the drivers directly from the Intel driver download site, which gets slightly better results. But some of these drivers don’t install or work with Windows 10 yet.

        I finally took the last batch of my own NUC driver updates, and went through the good old Windows Device Manager. This allows Microsoft to provide its own drivers for hardware which doesn’t work correctly with the manufacturer’s drivers. Four of my drivers for the NUC updated there, and now everything works.

        When I told my colleague of this three-step strategy he was still skeptical, but this is what worked for me with my NUC.

        -- rc primak

    • #11425

      Metering was added as an afterthought in 1507. But it’s going to be extended to Ethernet connections in 1704 (or 1703). So it started out as an ugly duckling, and may yet become a swan. Or something like that.

    • #11426

      You may be right, but metering is certainly not a business way of managing Windows Update, but rather seen as a temporary reprieve for home users who eventually are supposed to update when they have the next chance to find a better connection. I think iOS has a similar implementation not for Wi-Fi but for mobile (3G, 4G) connections.
      New releases of Windows have always been planned ahead because of the length of time for which they used to be supported and a lot of technologies implemented did not make sense at the time when they were first implemented.
      Tablet related technologies were implemented first in Windows 2000 when very few thought about touch screens as more than a SF gadget. Unfortunately, the Windows implementation never took off and Microsoft lost that market.
      There was even a promotional video with a person who was so busy that he was almost run over by cars or buses. I cannot find that video now, but I will post it if I will find it πŸ™‚

      • #89242

        For business environments, definitely use the Group Policies. I am a single-person desktop Windows user.

        -- rc primak

    • #11427

      @ Ray G ……. Android OS is based on Linux. In 2003, Andy Rubin just used a base-Linux distro n developed it for mobile and/or communication devices(= smartphones n tablets). That is why Ubuntu 14.04 can be installed on Android phones n mirrored on a desktop.
      ……. In 2005, Google bought Android OS from Rubin for US$50 million n in 2007 began offering it to users for free in exchange for ad n app revenue. In only a few years, Google-Android garnered about 80% of the market, outselling M$-Windows Phone n Apple iOS.
      .
      So, it is possible for nearly any Linux distro to outsell M$-Win-10 n Apple-MacOSX as long as it is further developed n supported by a capable tech company, n not by amateurish people like Linus Torvald n other basement or attic tech-geeks/hobbyists.
      ……. Why there aren’t any tech company interested.? Decision by Illuminati/Freemasons.? US govt endorsed duopoly.?
      .
      Presently, Linux desktop OS is not very user-friendly n well-supported = not suitable for cptr dummies.

    • #11428

      There are other significant differences between Pro and Home, not only controlling updates. Updates are easy to control and this is not the main purpose for using one operating system vs another, but this is another story for another time.

    • #11429

      @AEIMassry: The biggest difference is partial support for Group Policies.

      This really means that in *some* situations you can likely prevent some issues either with a domain controller and Group Policy, or perhaps in the local policy editor. As you go down each rung on the Windows “ladder” lower versions may allow you to do less with the local policy editor.

      Yes, I agree it stinks. Microsoft’s chief aim is to get windows to upgrade to volume/enterprise licensing, something that isn’t always a good option for SMBs, even if they need more control.

    • #11430

      No worry. I saw the reply. πŸ™‚

    • #88211

      The refreshed v1607 β€œCBB” bits that includes the KB3200970 CU were made available only to MSDN subscribers and to those using WSUS, WUB (windows update for business, not to the “normal” windows update mechanism) and to VLSC.

      • #97464

        Bummer news about the 1607 refresh media released late Jan. 2017: it seems like the Win10 setup always asks for a valid Win10 product key, even when attempting to upgrade a genuine/activated Win7 or Win8.1 system to Win10 as I found out the hard way after recently creating the 64bit Win10 v1607 refresh media from a downloaded ESD file directly from Microsoft. The Jan. 2017 Win10 v1607 refresh setup won’t ask for a product key when upgrading from an older build of Windows 10 (even from Win10 RTM v1507), BUT it will ALWAYS ask for a product key when attempting to upgrade from either an OEM or retail version of Windows 7 or Windows 8.1. πŸ™

        Glad I’m keeping older Win10 installation discs or USB flash drives (from build 1507, 1511 and “original” 1607) that I created, in case I consider upgrading valid Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 PCs to Windows 10.

        • #97472

          Which means that the only valid sequence to upgrade in place for free from Windows 7/8.1 is to install 1507 or 1511 first, as they were the only upgrades offered for free. If this is true, it makes some sense…

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